Dean raises party anxiety.

[Maple]

SNIP.."Democratic leaders and advisers say there is growing anxiety about the prospect of antiwar candidate Howard Dean becoming their presidential nominee next year, which has triggered talk of a "stop Dean" movement in the party.
These Democrats say that the concerns center in large part on Mr. Dean's bitter opposition to the war in Iraq that, they maintain, will make their party look weak on national security and the war on terrorism in next year's presidential election. "

SNIP....""This country wants to know that whoever is elected president understands the importance of protecting our national security. While there may be one path to winning the nomination, it's a very different path to winning the presidency," he said.
Mr. Panetta's carefully worded remarks reflect widening fears among Democratic leaders here and elsewhere in the party — especially in the South — who say that Mr. Dean is too liberal, not just in his opposition to using military force to topple Saddam Hussein but in his call for repealing all of the Bush tax cuts, imposing regulations on businesses, erecting new trade-protection rules and favoring civil unions for same-sex "marriages."

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031128-100828-7200r.htm

Okay...even tho I'm Canadian and can't vote in your election.... I like Dean....so I think all Democrats should be aware of how the party brass might be viewing this campaign.

So even tho this is from a 'right wing whore paper'...if you support a candidate, then you should be aware of what he faces, and figure out how to cope with it BEFORE things go wrong.

Okay now??

[wtmusic]

1. Dupe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=793414

[Maple]

2. No it's not a dupe

it's a repeat...because someone didn't know I am Canadian, and locked the thread because I didn't denounce the Washington Times.

THAT'S why I repost it, with denunciation duly in place.

Sheesh!

[LeftCoast]

5. I must say, this sounds like it's straight out of the RW talking points

Still the misperception that not attacking Iraq would somehow have threatened US security. A significant number of Americans (perhaps even a majority) do NOT see attacking Iraq as having enhanced our security.

We have found 0 WMD's

We have not located OBL

We have not located Mullah Omar

We have not located Saddam Hussein

We have had significantly increased incidents of global terrorism

AND we have spent something like $200 BILLION dollars for all this.

The only way GWB and Karl Rove can spin this into a FP success is if the entire country engages in Orwellian doublethink.

[Maple]

7. Maybe so

but this seems to be the Dem establishment.

That's what makes me wonder.

Michael Moore says the Dems have 'written off' 2004, and don't plan to make a comeback till 2008.

Is this true?

[Bombtrack]

18. Moore is wrong about politics once again, and you've baught the myth

about the "establishment" being against Dean. Dean is just as "establishment" as any candidate. He gets majority Clinton donor money, like all other serious candidates other than Edwards. He comes from an Eastern establishment family. His campaign co-chair is Steve Grossman, former DNC chairman. He's been heavily involved in the national governors assosiation. He's affiliated with the DLC, just like Gephardt and the senators.

The only true thing that seperates him is that his mailbox has been in Montpelier rather Georgetown for the last few years.

His campaign has created an abstract conspiracy theory of sorts about him being a darkhorse and maverick against the odds from the evil Washingtonians. It's all BS, it would suit all respectful Dean-supporters to stop trotting it out, because if he is nominated they'll have an even worse chance of winning(if that's possible) if the supporters of what he calls establishment canddiates hold a grudge agaisnt him

[Eloriel]

23. The only thing true or factual in that whole post -- and it's just one

is that he was heavily involved in the national governor's assocation.

It's NOT a myth, there've been stories about the establishment's Stop Dean efforts for months now.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea or even what you mean that he "gets majority Clinton donor money," but the bulk of his money is from The People, in dribs and drabs. Just who are these "majority Clinton donors" you're talking about?

While he comes from an Northeastern family, that really means nothing. They are REpublican; he's not, and hasn't been since a young adult.

He is no longer affiliated with the DLC, either because he got smarter or because what value they had on the political scene is exhausted or both. Proof here, where you'll find Kerry, Gephardt and Edwards listed, but not Dean: http://www.ndol.org/new_dem_dir_action.cfm?viewAll=1

Further proof: those several vicious and thoroughly unwarranted DLC attacks on Dean and his supporters a while back.

The campaign has created nothing of the sort like what you suggest: an abstract conspiracy theory of sorts about him being a darkhorse and maverick against the odds from the evil Washingtonians.

He IS an outside candiate, that's just fact. He WAS a darkhorse, and he IS a maverick. Those are just observable facts. Against Washingtonians (we'll ignore your inflammatory and hyperbolic term "evil")? Quite obviously. I don't know why you're complaining -- or implying some grand campaign strategy -- about observable facts, except to make it SOUND, via innuendo, like something nefarious going on. Nooooo, just the facts which apparently you're quite envious of, or something.

It's all BS, --

a statement which makes you look damn silly about now.

it would suit all respectful Dean-supporters to stop trotting it out, because if he is nominated they'll have an even worse chance of winning(if that's possible) if the supporters of what he calls establishment canddiates hold a grudge agaisnt him

Well, the supporters of certain other candidates, including you and your candidate, would have the same problem relative to Dean supporters. So, a few thousand miscreant hotheads at DU would cut their noses off to spite their faces and potentially NOT support Dean as nominee. Tooooo fucking bad. They shoulda thoughta that eventuality before they invaded DU and started with their vicious lying and misrepresenting Dean unrelentingly, don't you think? Like your own post?

Eloriel

[Bombtrack]

25. the same thing can be said about your response

The few attempts from a few prominent democratic strategists, pollsters, and elected officials to highlight Dean's general election weaknesses have been LABELED the establisment to dismiss there critisms of Dean.

It's scapegoating, because they have no credible evidence to refute the concerns and critisms, based on history and public opion of these naysayers. It's also necessary for Dean to associate Washington experience with a negative connotation in a primary because of 9-11 and the obvious advantage his opponents have in that they have dealt with the federal aftermath firsthand.

He panders to and relies on all parts of what is really the democratic establishment as much as any other and probably more. There's no question he's among the bigger red-meat throwers. Teachers and Labor Unions, Trial Lawyers, Minority and feminist groups, and most of all the new anti-war movement. He hasn't told any of them what they don't want to here. He hasn't taken any chances. That's what a maverick does. That's what McCain and Buchannon did to the republican establisment. It's not what Dean has done.

he was running a year before any other candidate, he more or less monopolized the sharply anti-war SEGMENT of the democratic primary vote, and the GOP has set out to destroy his opponents since they thought he had a good shot at the nom. Kerry or anyone else was never a true frontrunner, and he was never a true dark horse. He was an insurgent in a wide open field from a state bordering one of the 2 most important primaries.

As far as him not being on the DLC website, that's because he's no longer an elected official.

[JNelson6563]

27. Break out the waders! It's gettin' deep!!

Oh friend, how you reveal your ignorance.

about the "establishment" being against Dean. Dean is just as "establishment" as any candidate.

Gee, do ya really think Clark decided to run for President cause a few thousand folks e-mailed and asked him to? <snarf>

He gets majority Clinton donor money, like all other serious candidates other than Edwards.

Really? Care to cite a source on that?

He comes from an Eastern establishment family.

Just as John Edwards or Dennis Kucinich or anyone else's humble background should not be held against them neither should that of one who comes from affluence. Dean is obviously not an extravagant person and the way he's chosen to live speaks volumes of him being not a great lover of wealth.

I can only see making an issue of this if family fortune is the reason for the person's achievements directly. Sure Dean had the opportunity to get his education but he made what he did of it on his own.

His campaign co-chair is Steve Grossman, former DNC chairman. He's been heavily involved in the national governors assosiation. He's affiliated with the DLC, just like Gephardt and the senators.

"Former chairman"? Sounds kinda outsiderish to me and a good move to make. Former insider, shows maybe a need for learning how to work with the inside. Who would need help working with insiders? Um, here's a clue; it rhymes with "moutsider". As a Governor of a state I'd think he would be involved in the GA. So? And is Dean still affiliated with the DLC? I guess when they kept attacking him I figured that was a past tense thing.....

The only true thing that seperates him is that his mailbox has been in Montpelier rather Georgetown for the last few years.

Um, and a crazy habit of going with his instincts instead of walking the firm, broad path, like your basic "insider" does nowadays. You know like saying a war is wrong when it is highly unpopular to do so.

His campaign has created an abstract conspiracy theory of sorts about him being a darkhorse and maverick against the odds from the evil Washingtonians.

Hello? Anyone remember one of the oldest, most popular themes for lots of elected officials? "I'm not them" Them of course always in reference to the "insider". Why do you think it is so often Governors that win the WH?

It's all BS, it would suit all respectful Dean-supporters to stop trotting it out, because if he is nominated they'll have an even worse chance of winning(if that's possible) if the supporters of what he calls establishment canddiates hold a grudge agaisnt him

That is easily remedied. Running-mate. An excellent re-assurance to the establishment that they will not be completely frozen out.

Lots of hateful opinion, little (if any) substance and I give it a zero on "productive dialogue". Thanks for playing.

Julie

[Bombtrack]

14. (perhaps even a majority), no sorry

on the question of whether we shouldn't or shouldn't have used force against Saddam, or wether the US made the right decision it's most commonly 35/65 and just after the bloodiest month since the war began it was 60/40 pro-invasion.

it does not bode well that a majority will ever support dean's position.

undecided Voters, you know the one's who decide elections, will mostly support the notion that the Bush doctrine in Iraq hasn't been proven right, but they also won't support the Dean/anti-war movements notion that it hasn't already been proven wrong.

Faced with that, they'll chose optimism over pessimism

[caledesi]

24. Totally agree LC. Dean's running a brilliant campaign and they

don't know what to do about it, except trash him on the "security" issue. Security is a repug word; scare 'em! Remember that folks!

[mlawson]

3. Uh, oh. This sounds very much like

the DNC reaction to Gary Hart in 1984 (before Dona Rice which was 1988). Yep, I have been through this before. Dammit!!!

[Maple]

4. Well it's just that

I thot it important Dean supporters be made aware of any trouble on the horizon...and this looks like trouble to me.

Something that needs to be fought.

[virtualobserver]

8. you are right, it does need to be fought.......

But they won't be much trouble really, because they aren't really very skilled politically. As Dean's strength grows, he will build a new Democratic Party structure.....one that is willing to stand up to the Republicans.

[Rose Siding]

6. It's a power stuggle

here's some more from a couple of weeks ago:

The Democratic Party: Outside In

It is easy to think the presidential race has reached a tipping point. One week, assured by his supporters that they will raise all the money he needs, Howard Dean skips out of the restrictive federal matching-funds system. The next, he formally accepts the endorsements of the two most politically powerful unions in the country: the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. And soon, according to an aide, his campaign will unveil a group of foreign policy luminaries who had been advising several candidates but have recently decided to back only Dean. The Dean campaign seems to be shedding the last vestiges of insurgency, aiming to build a sense of inevitability and end the race early with decisive victories in Iowa and New Hampshire, like Al Gore in 2000.

But, for all of his newfound respectability, the buzz from numerous Washington Democrats in the wake of Dean's extraordinary two weeks has been a hardening of opposition rather than a cascade of previously reluctant supporters endorsing the governor. "My sense is that this isn't tipping anyone towards Dean," says a top Beltway Democrat with ties to the Dean campaign. "The overwhelming majority here in Washington are more worried." Instead of consolidating support within the party establishment, Dean is polarizing it.

The division in the party over Dean is less about ideology than about power. Three years after Bill Clinton left office, he and Hillary still control what remains of a Democratic establishment. Terry McAuliffe, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), was installed by Clinton. Most of the powerful new fund-raising groups, known as 527s, and the new think tanks, such as the Center for American Progress, are run by the best and brightest of the Clinton administration. As "National Journal" noted in a detailed look at what it called "Hillary Inc.," the senator's network of fund-raising organizations "has begun to assume a quasi-party status." And some of the best Clinton talent is heavily invested in non-Dean campaigns, especially Joe Lieberman's (Mandy Grunwald and Mark Penn), John Edwards's (Bruce Reed), and Wesley Clark's (Bruce Lindsey, Eli Segal, and Mickey Kantor).
more...................

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/13/opinion/main583484.shtml

[0007]

9. You got that right!

[whirlygigspin]

11. the horror, the horror

That evil Dean and his stupid empowerment is upsetting Tom Daschle and many other fine defenders of our seniors in DC.

Hillary! make him stop! waaaaaaaaaaa

[Demobrat]

10. This is exactly what worked so well in the 2000 election.

Let's not criticize Bush's war because he'll make us look soft on terror. Didn't somebody once say that insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

[drscm]

12. "They maintain, will make their party look weak...

on national security and the war on terrorism."

Yup. That's what we need, Democratic leaders who look and act like that macho Texan who is squatting in the white house. After all, all the democratic leaders now in congress have proven that following *bush's agenda is the way to win the hearts and minds of the American people.

Damn it! Wake up. It is time that the Democratic Party stand up for something rather than simply pretending to stand for something. Otherwise we will be as lacking in integrity as the current misadministration and deserve to continually lose.

Instead of pandering to possible "perceptions," can we perhaps be the party of truth?

And this applies to all of our candidates, regardless of who they are.

[pasadenaboy]

13. The party should be anxious

it is full of sell outs and losers. Dean will hopefully help to clean house. They are nervous because the old way of doing things is threatened. You are not supposed to be able to run a campaign with a lot of small doners. You are supposed to have to bend the knee to the party and its institutional constituancy. Dean hasn't done that (yet?) so they are rightfully nervous.

[Bombtrack]

20. And plenty of Dean's republican donors are gonna stop if he gets the nom

and start contributing to Bush. I wouldn't be surprised if a quarter of it was coming from Bush-backers

[JNelson6563]

28. got anything of substance

or is your existence here to produce counter-productive nonsense? I see little else from you.

Again, I gotta go with a Zero on "productivity" and I'm afraid we have to do a double whammy with a Zero on "creativity".

Thanks for playing. Good luck on improving your game. :+

Julie

[ulysses]

15. and again

if it's true, it's good. It's past time the party hierarchy got uncomfortable.

[spooky3]

16. The Wash. Times is a RW rag owned by the Moonies

[Maple]

17. We know that

It doesn't change the message, if you attack the messenger however.

[Cocoa]

21. of course it does

an analysis in the Wash. Times should be considered to be propaganda against the dems. That changes things big time.

[Zorra]

19. Sounds like the Defense Industry and

all the other war profiteers are having a panic attack. What ever will they do if a DLC corporate kennel boy is not nominated?

[whirlygigspin]

22. but if you pick Dean

you might loose all those southern millitary votes the dems depend on

ROLF

[mrgorth]

26. Let me bottom line this for you

These Democrats say that the concerns center in large part on Mr. Dean's bitter opposition to the war in Iraq that, they maintain, will make their party look weak on national security and the war on terrorism in next year's presidential election.

Being against the war was right. If we have to put up someone who got fooled it doesn't say much about us as a nation.

repealing all of the Bush tax cuts,

This might hurt but Dean is very good (IMO) at explaining how these tax cuts have amounted to nothing.

imposing regulations on businesses,

Needs to happen.

erecting new trade-protection rules

Seems to me that having no manufacturing base at all is bad for national security. No real dem will have an issue with this.

and favoring civil unions for same-sex "marriages."

Well as far as I know all the other Dems are in the same boat on civil unions. Bottom line. Dean is right on all of these and he has the balls to stand up for these things. I don't want to vote for a repug with a D over his name. I don't want to vote for a repug at all. We have to be proud of what we are.

Man, this thread is much nicer after I put Bombtrack on ignore.