Talked tonight w/my Republican parents re Bush, 2004, the future, Clark

[DrBB]

Well it's interesting. Had the whole family--18 people--to my loft for Thanksgiving. Ruled politics out of bounds for the duration. Parents, brother in law are conservatives; my little bro and me are quite the other thing. Interestingly, nobody seemed to mind, which may well be significant in itself--when right wingers don't want to beat you up (or try) with their latest talking points, that says something.

But tonight the barrier came down. It was just me and my elderly Republican parents. Pop's a long-time conservative, Mom's a moderate-to-conservative. My wife went out to a party with friends and I stayed in to make dinner for P and M. Determined not to bring up politics--what's the use, they're too old, too set in their ways, just leave it lie.

But somehow we got into it. Suddenly I found myself explaining why I despise Bush. Not hate, but despise--there's a distinction. I despise him, I said, above all for having been handed on a silver platter the educational opportunities others have begged for, and being proud--PROUD--of only getting C-minuses and basically breezing through on family name without learning a goddamn thing. I said this is the story of his life. I said his career is a series of failures from which he has been bailed out by people wanting favors from his family. People, often as not, with the last name of bin Laden.

I tried to stop myself. Change the subject. I know my dad will only put up with so much, then he'll start doing the, "Yeah, well what about the Dems'" rejoinders. He's not dumb, he's smart as hell and can cite his own chapter and verse. Instead, though, he's not saying anything. I can see by his face that the rich frat boy shit really gets to him--he's a very smart man, from a very wealthy background (he was at Graham Eckes school in Palm Beach with Ted Kennedy), but it is an American-wealth family of engineering brains and entrepeneurial risk-taking guts. He knows the rich-frat-boy, coasting-on-daddy's-laurels thing from the inside and it fills him with nothing but disgust and contempt. He is proud of having made his own way in a very competitive intellectual environment after his father divorced my grandmother and took his fortune with him, leaving my dad (the eldest) in charge of a big family under the cloud of that social stigma (divorce was not an okay thing in their circles in 1951).

I talked about the PNAC--which they'd never heard of. Went into detail about that, the whole business how Cheney basically triggered it by asking Wolfie and Powell to present their vision plans for the post-Soviet world back in 1989. About the medicare bill. About Grover Norquist and his plans to dismantle the New Deal. About securities regulation and the difference between the American system and crony-capitalism of the kind being practiced in Russia, southeast Asia and increasingly here. How those laws, those regulations, have far more to do with establishing what we consider American democracy than laissez-faire capitalism. Any country can have crony capitalism, and most of 'em do. The rare thing is the system of an impartial judiciary and laws that say you have to play fair and have transparent bookkeeping. All that stuff that Reagan--my Dad's hero--started dismantling back in the 80s.

I spoke openly about how the Dems have caved on this stuff--that Lieberman (my parents lived in Connecticut for 20 years) was as responsible as anyone for dismantling the SEC, but Clinton tried to prevent it. That the difference between bad and worse is often very much more acute than that between good and bad. I said "You guys aren't going to be around to see the kind of world these guys are making, but I will--I'm a Type I insulin diabetic, and I know what this medicare bill is going to mean for me in my old age--and your grandchildren will be." I said "these guys are not conservatives, they are radicals. They pretended to be moderates, but they are not moderates. They are not conservatives. They are radicals who mean to dismantle the New Deal." I said maybe that's what needs to be done, maybe you could make that argument. But they don't have the courage to make it, or to tell people what they are doing. They don't have the guts to do it in public, but if you read Norquist, if you read the PNAC thing, you can see that those are their domestic and foreign policy blueprints.

I told them about Joe Wilson and the Iraq lies, and Plame. My Mom kept saying "But we haven't heard any of this. How come this doesn't get reported?" I said, "Watch Fox News much?"

I described who Wilson was--how he was a Dem, yes, but he served as acting ambassador to Iraq under Bush I and earned the highest commendation for saving lives by getting Americans out of Iraq in the lead up to Gulf War I. And yet these bozos tried to discredit him for telling them the truth about the yellowcake thing. I started getting angry. I said, okay, if Iraq was an intelligence failure, if 9/11 was an intelligence failure, if the Niger yellowcake in the State of the Union was an intelligence failure, not Bush's fault--then WHO HAS BEEN FIRED? Why does Condi still have a job? Why does Tenet still have a job? Why has an agent, whose responsibility was investigating bioweapons proliferation, been outed disabled from within the highest circles of the administration and no one has been fired? Either people should have been fired or Bush is lying--simply LYING--when he says he wants to get to the bottom of these things. And aren't those lies VASTLY more serious than blowjobs (I used the term) in the oval office? Or a $40,000 real estate deal that went awry? Versus Jeb Bush's nifty little schemes to profit off Iraq. Or the similar schemes of others in the highest echelons of the Republican party.

I said, in short, what the fuck is going on here, and who the fuck have you voted for. I said, this isn't new. I said, we started dismantling the New Deal and seriously heading in this direction--badmouthing the Gummint, screaming about Terrible Taxes and Regulation--under Reagan, undermining the legitimacy of institutions like the SEC that have stood between us and the most rapacious forms of robber-baron crony capitalism. I said read David Brooks in the NYTimes crowing about the triumph of the "conservative" project and ask yourself is THIS what you meant by "conservatism"? Is THIS what you had in mind?

They were with me. They don't like Bush. They may be Republicans but they are not stupid and they can see him for what he is. But my Mom said, "But what do you want us to do? Vote for Dean? He's just running on anger."

I said, well, he's actually quite a centrist, and we need someone to simply try to govern honestly, to take us back from this brink. I said, Of course he's angry. He's right to be angry. Look at what these people are doing.

But I can tell Dean's not an option for them. It's an emotional thing, but he just isn't. The associations are all wrong.

As I was dropping them off at their hotel, my Dad turned to me and said, "But what do you want me to do--I can't vote for a Democrat." This is a very proud man; the fact that he could say this, as opposed to merely dismissing everything I'd said out of hand as liber twaddle, is something of a miracle. It speaks very powerfully of what an absolutely pathetic job Bush has done as president.

Yet there it is--he's stuck.

It's not a policy thing, it's a gut thing. An emotional thing.

So I said look at Clark. He's actually to the left of Dean on a lot of things, like universal health care, affirmative action, even gun control. But he is a guy who came up from nothing, who left body parts in Viet Nam, who knows like Ike did the "military industrial complex" from inside (something else we had talked about--that Ike had originated that phrase, and that Teddy Roosevelt had busted up the big trusts the first time around).

Clark has a story for which they can set aside some of their lifelong attitudes about Dems, in order to vote against a guy they know is a fraud--their whole life experience has taught them to recognize such poseurs. And not just against, but also for--he's worn the uniform, he's paid his dues. Understand, the military service thing isn't everything to me--it didn't bother me that Clinton didn't serve in the military, nor does it bother me that Dean didn't. But it gives them a cover they can use when it comes to pulling that dreadful Dem lever in 2004.

They could do it for Clark. They couldn't for Dean. And they are scared, very scared by Bush, by the Medicare bill, by where things are going. My mother--my mother--is the one who used the term "fascism" when we talked about the fear factor--the difference between FDR's "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" and Bush's "Be very afraid. Be afraid all the time." My mother and father both nodded when I said what kind of party is it that puts you in a state of permanent war--you can win a war against al Qaeda, but not a war against terrorism, and what kind of government is it that wants to be in a war that can never end? My MOM said "it's fascism," and my father--this is just astonishing--NODDED.

They want someone else to vote for. And I think this is a class of voters that the Flying Chimp can ill afford to lose. But I don't think they can pull the lever for Dean. I just don't think they can do it. They could do it for Clark.

</screed>

[SeveneightyWhoa]

1. Clark left body parts in Nam?

Wow, I did not know that. Since all the visible parts are still visible....well, his wife must not be very pleased.

[DrBB]

2. Couple of fingers, some blood.

He was shot up pretty good. But hey, nice joke you made.

[Donna Zen]

22. A quarter of his right leg muscle

The muscle of his thumb and part of his index finger.

Shot in the shoulder, leg, hip and hand.

[The Zanti Regent]

3. Dr BB, Count your blessings that your parents talk to you.

My whole family were hard core Carter supporters, but Reagan lied enough to switch them ALL to the GOP. All I hear from them is the same bullshit that comes out of the mouth of Rush!

[SheilaT]

4. If thoughtful,

basically good people like your parents could vote for Bush again, then maybe there's no hope.

It's not a matter of they can't pull the lever for Dean, could pull it for Clark (or whatever other Dems we can name here), but that they would still pull it for Bush.


WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY GOING TO BE THINKING IF THEY DO THAT?

(sorry about shouting, but I just couldn't control myself)

[JNelson6563]

5. They sound intelligent

too intellignet in fact to be afraid to pull the lever for Dean over Bush. I do not think reasonable, intelligent people, as you describe in your post, can be subjected to the facts, as you describe in your post, vote for Bush because their impression of Dean is anger (just as Faux News mis/dis-informed themon so many other things).

Dean had to appeal to an angry base. Seems to me some of the anger is tempering nicely into a high-grade determination. Dean is perceptive enough to pick up on the need to channel energy in that direction. There are months left and not one primary vote has been cast. I believe that if Dean wins the nom and runs with an appropriately adjusted campaign people like your parents will be more than able to pull the lever for Dean.

I also believe there is the possibility Dean and Clark may end up on the same ticket which would, of course, make this post irrelevant. ;-)

Julie

[mrgorth]

8. This is what I'm hoping

I like Clark and would happily vote for him. When I see him at the debates I can't tell if he really feels this stuff or if he's just running to run. I mean, why vote for Nixon and Reagan if you believe in any of the stuff the dems do. Also, his remark about letting India keep MY job didn't fly too well with me. I hope a Dean/Clark, Clark/Dean ticket would work.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrBB]

14. I'm just trying to describe the situation accurately

Like I say, I did my best to explain why I think anger is an entirely appropriate reaction to what has been going on. I hope that if Dean gets it, he'll be able to shift from the appeal to the angry base to a predominantly positive, more encompassing message.

I certainly don't have any trouble voting for him. I'm GLAD that Dean has been kicking ass the way he has. I'm just offering this as a window into a change going on. That my father is showing this degree of disaffection with Bush is INCREDIBLE. Like I said--evidence of the MAMMOTH failure of Bush. I went on at some length to try to give some of the flavor of this tectonic shift--if he is going through this, others may be as well. But they were floundering when it came to a Dem they could vote for. My mom tentatively mentioned Kerry positively. Clark they hadn't really thought about, but the initial positives were there. Dean just is a much harder sell for these people.

If it's Dean, in the end, and it looks like they won't go for him, I'll try to convince them not to vote, or to vote Independent, whoever that happens to be.

[JNelson6563]

20. I hope you do not think I meant

you were inaccurate or misleading. I believe you gave an honest assessment and meant to imply nothing else.

You must feel fabulous after your discussion with your parents. You should.

:toast:

Julie

[kerry-is-my-prez]

6. I could also see my hardcore Repub Parents voting for Clark - he's the

only Dem. I could see them voting for. The funny thing about CLark is that if he weren't a former general - he would thought of as a raving Liberal (supports Univ. of Mich. Affirmative Action plan, etc.) He can get away with a lot.

[calimary]

7. Unfortunately, I don't see Clark as being able to go the distance.

I COULD VERY EASILY be wrong. I'm a Deanie, but I'd go with Clark eagerly. But I don't think he has the money or momentum to do it.

Perhaps you could suggest (I do this VERY reservedly) that if your parents just can't bring themselves to vote for a Democrat (which makes NO sense to me, personally), suggest they vote for the Libertarian Party candidate, or someone else. At least it'll be two more votes NOT in the bush column...

I take small comfort in stories like these, where obviously intelligent people with LOTS of life experience worthy of my admiration and deep respect, who SHOULD KNOW BETTER, just can't bring themselves to pull out of a graveyard spiral - all because they just can't vote for a Democrat. WHY can't they vote for a Democrat? What's so repulsive about it?

Your father sounds kinda like the self-made man MY father was. Pulled himself up, BY himself, and no dad to help him, either. Certainly no cushy contacts in high places with influential, powerful people to grease the skids and buy him out of tight spots. So I can respect that and relate to that. If he were still alive, my dad would probably recoil in horror at what's going on now, even as pro-business as he is, but he wouldn't dare vote Democrat. WHAT THE HELL GIVES?????

I guess our only alternative in cases like this is to maybe even encourage them to sit this one out til four years hence, when they'll hopefully have a better republi-CON they can hitch their wagon to. Or if they absolutely wish to participate in some way, give them the name of some other political party candidate. Wish Pat Buchanan were up to it again. Looks like he's got some time on his hands now.

Bless your heart for opening their eyes, at least to some extent. We need more people like you.

[Leilani]

10. Great Post

There are so many people out there like your parents; I know many of them. They don't like Bush, but they are afraid of the Dems.

That's why I am supporting Clark. The Dems need to take the flag, patriotism, Mom & apple pie back from the Reps. A Clark nomination can do this & also turn the tide of of momentum the Reps have been riding on.

There are 45 million Veterans in this country & many do not like Shrub. If Clark can tap into just a fraction of these people, (also, add in their family members & people who care about them) the Dems would not only take the Gore states, but be competitive in many more.

Also, the majority of Americans agree with Dems on the issues, but the Dems have been potrayed as left-wing, Commie loving, hedonistic radicals. There are left wing people who make this argument easy.

Elections are not won by the extremist wings of either party. Run as a moderate, & govern from the left.

[Mz Pip]

11. Had a similar experience

not quite so intense but interesting just the same. I spent last weekend with my Repuplican cousin in Phoenix. We don't talk politics much, but she made some comments that led me to believe she was less than thrilled with Bush. Said she didn't think much of Dean but asked me about Clark since I had a Clark button on my purse. I gae her some info and she was impressed, said she would definitely check him out.

My cousin comes from a family who NEVER cross party lines. Listening to her talk she sounded pretty frustrated with the way things are going. In 5 minutes I had her interested in Clark.

MzPip
:dem:

[Tom Rinaldo]

18. Yeah, my girlfriend met a neighbor today

for the first time really, who lives down the street (we have only lived where we do for a little over a year). Most of our town is definately Republican). Anyway, Janet went to a few houses with a petition to get Clark on the Primary ballot. The neighbors we know already are Democrats and gladly signed. This other woman though is Republican, and she would have signed if the law allowed it (can't cross parties on the petition). She said she knows quite a few Republicans who know about and would vote for Clark, probably not for any other Dem though. Clark is reassuring to many Republicans, not so much for his positions on specific issues, but because he has led an "honorable life serving his nation in the military" and thus isn't seen as some pie in the sky liberal type who wouldn't instinctively know how to respond to a real security threat.

Much thanks to this threads originater, who went to a lot of effort to share that story in detail with us.

[Jerseycoa]

12. Great report

Why not download some policy briefs:

http://clark04.com/downloads/">Clark 04

Let them look through the stuff. Even if Clark is not the nominee, God forbid, it could soften them up maybe.

Anyway, it sounds like you had an extraordinary breakthrough with your parents. Good work.

[5thGenDemocrat]

13. Doc

Good story. I know people just like that in Saginaw. Thanks for sharing.
John
Truth: I know more Repubs who dislike Bush than don't. Most of them KNOW he's a moron and an embarrassment to what their Grand Old Party USED to stand for (low taxes and good government). They have no interest in world domination nor in $500 billion deficits and hold little regard for or similar interest with pResident Dopey.
They'll vote for the right Democrat.

[DrBB]

16. Yup--that's it exactly

I went on at length, but that was the thing--I kept expecting Pop to throw his usual hand-grenades and he didn't. These people are not idiots, they can recognize the Chump for what he is. They are sitting there ready to be peeled off like flaking paint. "They have no interest in world domination nor in $500 billion deficits"--that describes my Pop's brand of conservatism to a "T."

But the only guy I see among the Dems who could do it for 'em is Clark. Like I said in another post above, if it ends up beng Dean, and they just can't vote for him, I'll push 'em to vote Independent. I don't think staying home is an option for them and anyway it'd feel ugly to try to persuade anyone NOT to vote. But--I can't stress this enough--it is INCREDIBLE that my Dad is at this point with Bush. Just incredible.

[elfin]

15. You handled it well and I agree

Clark is the one who can bring in the waverers - they will not like Dean, simply because of the way he is portrayed by the media they consume and the vociferous backing by the Dem base which they have a knee jerk reflex about. The media can't play those games with Clark as well, giving us a better chance in Nov.

[glarius]

17. Clark is someone acceptable to Republicans & Independents as well as

Democrats...That's my opinion. The fact that he is a military man impresses Republican types...If you want to make friends with the world again, he's a good choice...One of his main concerns is mending the fences Bush has broken with your former allies....And he's so damned smart...He's a Rhodes scholar and thinks in global terms....I'm sticking in my Canadian nose, but I like him!!!

[HoosierClarkie]

19. Were you at my house?

My parents, grandparents, and yes husband were die-hard Republicans until this weekend. This weekend I gathered signatures in Indiana malls to get Clark on the ballot. We need 4500 by the way. One couple had me in tears. I was told I was pitiful, and a waste. My father may not be a democrat, but he sure did not like the way I was treated by the Republicans in this state. It really made him think about the kind of people that support Bush and the propaganda that he feeds them. It creates an environment of intolerance and pure hate. My father would never call someone pitiful and a waste for supporting democracy! This ignited a discussion that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Then when Bush was on the TV on thanksgiving day, my father actually thought it was too little too late! My grandfather worked for Senator Lugar and actually said he was proud of me for supporting Clark. Clark has a unique way of reaching those type of voters. I would support whomever wins the nomination wholeheartedly, but I think only Clark can sway Republicans in my state. I am convinced now.

[FrenchieCat]

21. Cool Story....

I know it's hard. My Step Dad is a Democrat but never likes to talk politics. I had sent him an email presentation on Clark. He really complimented me on how detailed I was, but said that he would have to look into it. That was Thanksgiving. I looked at the big screen TV in their family room...and what was on? The Debates! So I forced him to sit down..and the whole family watched....my two daughters too, and even my mother (who is not an American citizen and really doesn't give a Sh*t long has she has money to go and spend).

Well after the debate my stepdad told me, Well I do think that the one you like, Wes Clark, he does seem to be a heavyweight. He said he liked Kerry as well...but then my 13 year old daughter screamed, but he looks like a pencil with an eraser on top. Kinda of funny, but I tried not to laugh.

Anyway, I had brought Clark's book, and offered to leave it with him to let him read it (I did that on purpose/I am reading Dude where's my country).

So I think I've got a convert. Guess I will be sure after he reads the book. He does the "hard to get on purpose" I think...so I believe that I pretty much have him.

A stranger would have been easier to convert than him. Glad they keep showing those debates over and over.

[maggrwaggr]

23. that's exactly why I think Clark is the man to make the transition

for the nation from the era we're in, to whatever the new era is.

Let's face it, things aren't working now. This country's ready to eat itself alive.

Clark actually straddles the fence, he's new, he's a republican who's seen the light and understands that what counts is what's right and what's wrong.

And right now everything is wrong.

I think any other candidate will just perpetuate the near-civil-war we have in this country.

[RainDog]

30. If you think the likes of Santorum or DeLay or Scalia

or Cheney, ad nauseum, are going to play nice just because Clark is in office, well, they have a war in Iraq to sell you.

This country is engaged in a low-intensity civil war at this time, which the Republicans started.

Why should I or anyone else support Clark on his credentials as a "former Republican??"

I understand what you are saying about current Republicans, but the issue is that they need to get some truth.

[maggrwaggr]

31. exactly. I think Clark has the cajones to stand up to those guys

and come out the winner.

He's not a typical Dem politician, one of those "oh, yes, I can certainly see your side of the story" pussies that we have so many of in office right now.

The guy's a warrior and he doesn't take shit from anybody. He kicks your ass but oddly stays a nice guy doing it.

He's the guy I want in the fight.

I'm not saying this to put down any other candidate, I like almost all the candidates in varying degrees. I've given money to Dean, twice.

[Kahuna]

53. Yep! I agree with you. Clark can heal the partisan divides..

I see it as a civil-war. Not a near, civil war. I've believed this since Clinton was president.

[Rowdyboy]

24. Thanks for another inspiring story about relatives...

Lord knows, we all have our burdens to bear, but at least you're making progress with yours. Congratulations!

[Ksec]

25. That was one hell of a post

And I can tell you that I understand , having at least a had a Republican Father and a Mom who followed him.
**
I told them about Joe Wilson and the Iraq lies, and Plame. My Mom kept saying "But we haven't heard any of this. How come this doesn't get reported**
That sounds like the exact sentence my Mother said to me a few weeks ago. She watches Fox, nuff said. I told her she has to understand Fox is propaganda . She glanced at me with a confused look but after much explaining I think it soaked in . BTW I have a Brother thats the prototypical Christian Conservaturd. He fills her head with shlt when hes home and then I have to deprogram her afterwards.

[RainDog]

26. The first step is recognition

I'm so glad you had a chance to have a decent conversation with your parents.

While I understand where they are at this point..they've just admitted to a very scary truth...we are looking at fascism in the U.S. as standard operating procedure...they also need time to verify what you say, which I encourage them to do.

At this point, Clark is the "safe" step to admitting the problems in this country.

If they truly have understood, however, Clark is not the issue.

Rather, their committment to our democracy is the issue, and if that matters to them, which it obviously seems it does, then whoever the democratic candidate is will be a better choice than Bush.

Maybe this will dawn on them as they have more of an opportunity to think through the issues you brought to their attention.

If people who think we are looking at fascism will only vote for one candidate instead; however, we are in a bigger mess than I could imagine.

[PSU84]

27. Thank you!

That was a GREAT post!

Your reasons for despising Bush are the same reasons I find him utterly contemptible. The way he revels in his ignorance is disgusting.

I admire Wesley Clark and I believe he is the one Democrat who can beat Bush.

[Octafish]

28. Great post, Doc!

Most people can't find a way of bridging the divide that separates those on opposite sides of an issue. Your post will help many others do the same. Excellent in all ways, as usual.

[Donna Zen]

29. My sister...last summer

We stay away from politics, and it is better that way. So this summer when I was visiting her, she blurted out: "Do you think we should have gone to war?"

I told her it was unfair question because I knew too much. Ah yes, tantalizing one's own sister. It turns out she was against the war from the get go. She's a lawyer. Although she votes repub. every time, it is not because she is dumb. It is because she is rich, and likes it that way. Actually, she is socially fairly progressive on the issues, and is loath to associate her voting habits with the "born-again" branch of her party.

Anyway, before the weekend was over, she and my brother-in-law knew much more than their neighbors.

Introducing Clark was a no-brainer. Just said, "first in his class at West Point" and that was all she needed to know. Although as I remember, midshipmen were her fancy. Sweet youth.

Actually it was a good talk. I firmly believe that much of what separates many Democratic and Republican voters are non-issues and propaganda driven divides. My sister and I have many common ideas about right and wrong. We talked about the America we would like to live in and stayed on common ground.

As for the other candidates, to her they were typical politicians and the style of Democrats she doesn't trust. Clark can take West Virginia; I felt it everywhere.

[DrBB]

32. In my wildly hopeful moments, these stories spell

...landslide. In my wildly hopeful moments. When I'm not lost in black despair.

Because that's what we need. I think Dean, Diebold notwithstanding, might pull off a win by some narrow margin. Oh god, please, maybe. But to get a decisive, in your face, fuck-you-you-corrupt-bastards win will take something very different. It will require pulling a LOT of undecideds and disaffected Republicans like my parents. They might stay home for Dean, or vote Independent or Libertarian in large enough numbers to let him squeak in, Diebold notwithstanding.

But I don't think it will be the decisive mandate a Dem will need in order to roll back the unbelievably HUGE weight of bad policy and bad governance that has been wrought by these criminals.

It's going to be murderous for any Dem who wins--Faux and the ReichPundits will still be there, the Replicant House most likely and quite probably the Senate as well. It won't be enough to pull out a squeaker. I mean, I'll take it, sure, and I'd be ecstatic if Dean proves me totally wrong. But I think the only hope is for someone who can really draw from outside the party. I know Dean has shown some real strength among independents but I think he screams "Democratic hardcore" to a lot of people outside the party, despite the fact that the Dem Party leadership (ironically) views him as an insurgent. But I think Clark's story--including those sympathetic things he said about the current admin early on--has a lot more draw for these people. It actually mirrors the path we want them to take: Yes, Bushcorp sucked a lot of people in, but it's okay--it's not unpatriotic or weak on terrorism--to be disillusioned, be very disillusioned.

And the fact is that, policy-wise, he is as far left as anyone I've seen with a real shot at winning.

[stopbush]

33. They could abstain from voting for Bush and just not vote for

prez next time around. But they won't.

I have immediate family members who are repigs, and they hold the same feelings as your parents. They can't vote for a Dem any more than I could ever for for a repig.

But that said, I don't have anything to be personally ashamed of when I look at the people I voted for. Clinton's BJ wasn't a source of embarrassment for me, let alone shame. My older brother, on the other hand, SHOULD have plenty to be ashamed of. But he - just like your parents - is a Reagan repig, the types who will never get the fact that the bad shit is their fault.

Until your parents realize that they are as much a part of our current problems as is the imbecile THEY voted for, there's little hope they'll change.

[Nazgul35]

34. If Clark isn't the nominee...

and you are worried that they'll vote Bush rather than for any other Dem....perhaps offer them an out....

Tell them to not cast a vote for the office of president...just leave it blank...

Or better yet...have them write in none of the above or McCain or someone else they respect in the Party....

Anything's better than pulling the lever for Bush....

[jab105]

35. My dream is that one day my parents will respond in that way...

however, right now, I'm still dealing with a father who would make Dick Cheney look like a liberal, and a mother who thinks Bush is a "good Christian" so she just closes her ears to anything that is going on...

The frustrating thing is that when I try to bring up facts, they say that they dont believe them and that I'm misinformed...so I go online, give them 5 links to stories that verify that I'm correct, and I dont hear back from them about it again...

Uncomfortable silence again insues...blah!

[goforit]

36. WOW!!!......I wish I could talk to mine like that.

This is good to hear of change. But I see a common strand
in Republicans, and that is their "Pride" of being Pro-Bush
is far more important than the survival of humanity much less
their own grandchildren. And the funny thing is that they don't even know it. They equate politics to the latest NFL game, and they just
don't understand that their votes are responsible for mass murder,
a loss of civil rights, a loss of medicare, a loss of laws and even a loss of Democracy.

Yah, My parents and even my brother and more just really don't
see the writing on the wall.

And who's to blame?.......THE MEDIA takes 85% of the responsibility
for allowing ignorance to blossom.

15% are damn couch potatoes that don't care
to seek the truth.

[gate of the sun]

37. good for you

but what is so bad about voting for a democrat...it seems strange to me the future of this country can ride on attitudes like that ......like voting for a democrat is so terrible......I'll tell you my mother who is also a republican said she saw this general on Tv and I said well he is a democrat and she said " no he's not, at least he wasn't until a few weeks ago" she thought she might vote for him. while this isin't real comforting to me it might be for all those voting for clark.

[HoosierClarkie]

39. Another way to look at it is...

your mom is telling herself that he is a Republican inorder to justify her liking him.
Just a thought.

[Clark Can WIN]

38. Hence, CLARK CAN WIN

We are going to NEED those votes.

[FrenchieCat]

42. You got to remember that

the Pubs feel like the last Presidential election was hard fought and won. They got overproctective with their guy, Bush. So as much as we hate Bush, no matter what he did really, the same holds true for the Repub and the Indys in reverse. Until he started giving our money away to Halliburton and bodybags started coming home, for them, Bush could do no wrong. Now they are shaky about Bush....but that doesn't mean they are still not loyal......Bush built a bond with those Repugs....the Christian right, the Freepers who want government gone, and the hawks. I can see where it would be hard for them to vote for a "liberal". And I also see why they wouldn't have a problem rationalizing that Clark can be looked upon to them as one of their own that saw the light.....then they can say they saw the light too.

It's all psychological...but damn effective.

[Capn Sunshine]

40. Very Articulate, good points.

Fortunately there are many times your parents being brought into voting by the Dean movement. Add this to the majority we already had, and * is in trouble no matter how you slice it and no matter if you think Dean represents anger ( the Fox spin) or hope ( our reality)

Now, Clark will probably end up on the ticket, and I thik this bodes well for your parents. Iraq will be SO toxic by then, even THEY may be able to hold their nose and vote for Dean, or do us a favor and pass. But even if they just stay at home , god bless 'em, we have won.

[grasswire]

41. thanks for writing this...

...very thoughtful and compelling post. I'm on the same page you are. I can smell potential landslide with Clark. And my god, I want Poppy, Bar, and the whole gang of grifters punished by a landslide.

[Bill of Rights]

43. My dad, a retired corporate president

told me that he would vote for any dem except Gephardt. This man has voted republican all his life, but hates Bush.

[LibertyorDeath]

44. Now were talkin...Welcome to DU !

[VOX]

45. Magnificent post, DrBB. Thank you...

For trying to make a difference, even within one's own family.

The thought-shift you so eloquently describe is fascinating -- it gives hope that there are so very many voters out there like your parents -- old school Republicans -- who cannot tolerate the runaway aggression and dismantling that's been part and parcel of the current administration.

Hats off to you -- :toast:

[Dr Satan]

46. this is the PROBLEM with Clark

I don't want our party defined by pissed off republicans.
Yes it is great to get swing voters, but I will do everything to stop these pseudo-republicans from hijacking our party.

WE should not be the ones making the full compromise just to pander to them. If they are so disgruntled then THEY need to compromise.

If we could stop being so desperate and start having confidence in our own kind, then we realize that we don't have to compromise to win.

Every Democrat has an equal probability at beating Bush right now, so there is no need to panic and nominate a fucking General who didn't know he was a democrat until 2 months ago.

[Speed8098]

47. Then you want 4 more years of *?

"WE should not be the ones making the full compromise just to pander to them. If they are so disgruntled then THEY need to compromise."

Haven't you been following along? Don't you see the hate and anger being spewed by the rw?

Don't you hear the slurs against Democrats?

Did you not witness the 2002 election where we lost the majority in the Senate?

What exactly do you have against Clark other that this absured statement: " a fucking General who didn't know he was a democrat until 2 months ago."
Which is not a true statement.

Would you also please explain what you mean by this: "I don't want our party defined by pissed off republicans."

This one really baffles me."Yes it is great to get swing voters, but I will do everything to stop these pseudo-republicans from hijacking our party."
Does that mean you will be encouraging any repug you know to vote for *?

No? What does it mean then?

Clark/Edwards

:kick:

[Donna Zen]

50. If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

The old saying still holds true.

WE should not be the ones making the full compromise just to pander to them.

My experience has nothing to do with compromise. Clark is much more liberal on many issues than most of the candidates. Take the Cuban policy, where Clark is for lifting the embargo. iirc only Sharpton and Kucinich are there. Medical Marijuana--check, cutting the defense budget--check.

If there is a compromise, it is coming from the newly converted.

If we could stop being so desperate and start having confidence in our own kind,

What is that suppose to mean? Our own kind? I was born into a union household, my mom was an elected Democrat, but on the day of my birth there was no "D" tattooed on my ass. My sister is very liberal socially, but she doesn't hold with the democratic stance on large government programs and their supposed anti-military posture. She is ready to let it go.

Every Democrat has an equal probability at beating Bush right now

Tooth fairy

a fucking General who didn't know he was a democrat until 2 months ago

Personally, I believe in a non-partisan military. What is happening now with a shift toward an openly declared GOP military with the current anit-American junta in the White House, is a dangerous development. . That Clark was undeclared makes me happy and is the way it should be. If you hate the military, that is your business, but Democrats by being perceived as closed minded on this issue, will continue to lose elections and the confidence of the majority of the American people.

[HootieMcBoob]

55. Remember Reagan Democrats?

It's a shame that they hijacked the Republican party and moved it so far to the left.
<sarcsasm up top - non sarcasm below>

The idea is that Clark would be able to accomplish more through what he represents than any of the other candidate. Look at his stuff. In many areas he's more progressive than Dean. We need to win with a landslide. We need a mandate so that the congress will be forced to work with a Democratic President. That's what happened with Reagan, and I believe that's what can happen for us with Clark.

[Skwmom]

48. Thanks for the great post. e/o/m

[snippy]

49. This country needs more former republicans.

For over 20 years the republican party has focused on creating former democrats. That has been an extremely successful strategy. The democratic party would be wise to emulate it.

Many moderate republicans and independents are uneasy with the perpetual war advocated by the PNAC true believers or the extremism of the Reich wing fundamentalists. If turnout is strong among both the democratic base and the republican base, those moderate republican and independent voters likely will decide the election. Every former republican who votes for the democratic nominee is twice as valuable as every new democratic voter.

[Kahuna]

54. You're so right. The problem is that many current voters..

are ignorant as to the reality of polictics and what has transpired over the past 40 years to get us to this point in the history of election politics. They try to rationalize everything according to their limited exposure and their perceptions of what is "logical."

The first part to maturing into adulthood is to cast "logic" aside. Because it doesn't apply to real people in everyday life. Once you realize this, you are ready to learn how the real world works. Forget logic and learn about human nature instead.

[Mari333]

51. I wrote a long rant yesterday in the GD forum, and it ended up in the

Lounge...nonetheless, I have the same problem...people in my biological family who are either all for Bush and dont have a clue (because they think its a Xian crusade to kill people in Iraq), or my mom, who says she WOULD vote for Clark...I was so mad last night when my sister in law called me to wax poetically about how proud she was of my stepson being deployed that I blew up at her...and Im glad I did..
I also told her "You want a theocracy? Fine, have one...leave me out of it...have fun being a fascist, because thats where you people are taking us...putting gay people in concentration camps, and destroying peoples lives in the name of your faux god..."
Gads Im just not able to laugh anymore...things are so ugly..
I hope a Clark/Dean ticket runs...I really do....or vice versa..just to draw these people in. Im ABB but I am afraid people will vote for the Chimp because they are religious crusaders with their heads up their arse.. That terrifies me.

[Kahuna]

52. Absolutely great story. Thanks for sharing it.

:thumbsup:

[Tom Rinaldo]

56. Too many Democrats

show too little respect for everyone else in this country. The Republicans are masterful at welcoming Democrats into their fold. Even as they move steadily to the Right, they embrace the image of inclusiveness. Remember all the minorities speaking from the stage at their last national convention? The Republicans are attempting to be thought of as "The American Party". They want the Democratic Party to be seen as "The Opposition", defined by what we oppose. Having established that dynamic, the Republicans then seize hold of every jingoistic American slogan, symbol, and photo op they can muster, so that Democratic "opposition" becomes opposition to America. This stuff is subliminal folks. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't work with the vast majority of the American people, it doesn't have to. The vast majority of the American people are fairly set in their alliegences, the Republicans only need to sway a fraction of the remainder over firmly into their camp in order to win.

I am not worried about the Democratic base turning out for the next General Election. That is a completely false issue. Maybe if Lieberman were nominated we would have that problem. When most progressives look closely at Lieberman, they choke. When most progressives look closely at Clark, they like him. He isn't always their first choice, though frequently he is. The minority of progressives who revolt over a Clark nomination are very vocal during the primary season here at DU, but it is always the same handful of posters who shrilly oppose Clark. A much larger group worries about not knowing enough about him, but if you follow the threads here closely you will see a definite trend of Progressives who take the time to study Clark, (as opposed to just taking the time to constantly rehash and recycle prior hit jobs at Clark) warming to him considerably.

I know that I, as a strong Clark backer, am very clear on the importance of campaigning for whichever Democrat wins the nomination. I know the overwhelming majority of activists currently supporting another candidate will gravitate to that position once the general election race begins. There is a lot of rivalry showing now between the Dean and Clark camps here because Dean and Clark have the biggest camps here. It's that simple. We are all trying hard to win the hearts and minds of Democratic Party activists for our chosen candidate, and it will get heated sometimes. But almost all of us will unite and throw our energies behind whoever wins.

So the real issue for me is not who will mobilize Democrats. Both Dean and Clark are fighters with strong grass roots support,and Edwards, Kerry, and even Gephardt could tap nto that support if they get the nomination. The real issue is who can break through the Republican spin machine to resonate with Reagan Democrats, McCain Republicans, Ross Perot/Jessie Ventura Independents, and plain out everyone who is worried about national security being placed in the hands of the Democratic Party? WEsley Clark is that man.

[Petrodollar Warfare]

57. Excellent post...but I have a question..

...would they accept a Dean/Clark combo ticket? It's too early to say, but I suspect that's what we'll have next summer (which has both positives and negatives, but I think its a winning combo). As for Dean's anger, I expect he will temper that if he wins the Dem nomination in March. By the time the election/debates roll around, perhaps your parents perception will have changed. Anyhow, thank you for that excellent post.