The wrong Kerry is running for President

[IndianaGreen]

I am more than ever convinced that the wrong Kerry is running for President. Were it not for the Constitutional "natural born citizen" requirement for the Presidency, we could be lauding the guts and integrity of Teresa Heinz-Kerry:

Many have criticized Kerry, whose campaign has been disappointing, for failing to take bold and provocative positions. The same is rarely said of his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry. In remarks reported by the Associated Press last week, the would-be first lady came to the defense of terrorist suspects held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. She called White House treatment of them "insulting, ignorant and insensitive" and said the prisoners "should have the rights that other prisoners of war have had." Unfortunately for her husband, these rights do not include voting privileges in New Hampshire.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22009-2003Nov29.html

Teresa Heinz: Leader, Visionary

Teresa Heinz, is one of the nation's foremost philanthropists, and 2001 recipient of the prestigious Carlow College National Woman of Spirit award.

In his book On Becoming A Leader, Warren Bennis says that leaders are not born, they are made. All leaders possess common characteristics, according to Bennis, among them are a continued growth and development coupled with an overarching vision. One could certainly agree that Teresa Heinz was not born to be a leader. The former Maria Teresa Thierstein was born in Mozambique, the daughter of a Portuguese doctor. While attending the University of Geneva, Teresa met H. John Heinz III, heir to the H.J. Heinz food company fortune. Teresa and John were married in 1966. When John decided to go into politics by running for Congress in 1971, Teresa Heinz shunned the role of political wife, choosing instead to focus her energies in being a wife and mother.

In 1991, John Heinz, who was by now a respected and popular US Senator, was killed in a tragic accident when his plane collided with a helicopter. Teresa was devastated!

When many of the political leaders in Pennsylvania urged Teresa to run for John Heinz's seat, she chose instead to take over the Heinz family philanthropies. Four years later, after naming Teresa Heinz one of the magazine's visionaries for 1995, Utne magazine speculated as to the reasons why Teresa Heinz had declined to run for her late husband's Senate seat:

(Teresa Heinz) views her prolific philanthropy as a way of "fixing things" that is more effective than political campaigns, which are in her words, "the graveyard of real ideas and the birthplace of empty promises."(1)

When Teresa Heinz took the reins of the Heinz Family Philanthropies, she put all of her passion and devotion into bringing to fruition the ideas and goals of her late husband, a social moderate and a devoted environmentalist.

In 1996, Teresa Heinz oversaw the creation of the Women's Institute for a Secure Retirement (WISER), an independent nonprofit organization to educate women about retirement issues. WISER was created to deal with the serious challenges that women workers face in our society, among them one finds that half of all women work in low wage jobs that offer no pensions, and two out three working women earn less than $30,000 a year.

Another of Teresa Heinz noteworthy initiatives, and one that could really be described as being "out of the box," was the Heinz Plan to Overcome Prescription Drug Expenses (HOPE). The main thrust of the HOPE plan was to protect Massachusetts's seniors against catastrophic costs. The HOPE Plan relied on a combination of cost sharing, pharmacy management, and volume purchasing.

It should be noted that the HOPE Plan was passed by the Massachusetts legislature in 1999, while a more modest proposal to provide catastrophic coverage for seniors that was passed earlier by Congress, was repealed after a well-orchestrated campaign by special interest groups.

Under Teresa Heinz transformational style of leadership, the Heinz Family Philanthropies worked together with other parties sharing complementary goals, such as Joseph P. Kennedy II, Citizens Energy Corporation, to provide affordable prescription drugs to seniors and uninsured working families. Citizens Energy, had proposed putting consumers in a single pool in order to negotiate deep discounts from pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies.

Teresa Heinz has been able to translate into reality the hopes and aspirations of her late husband, John Heinz, and she has expanded on that vision by imparting her own optimism, her faith, and her hope.

In a poignant message on the aftermath of September 11, that was posted on the Heinz Family Philanthropies website and that I quote below, Teresa Heinz spoke about her own sense of mission after such a devastating tragedy to the nation:

There is a saying in my native Portuguese that translates roughly as, “God writes straight on twisted lines.”

It expresses the hope that human suffering and confusion are not pointless. There is meaning in tragedy and chaos, it suggests; and good may come from even the most brutal acts of evil…. What good, what meaning, could possibly be found here?

There are probably at least as many answers to those questions as there are people to ask them. For The Heinz Endowments, though, at least part of the answer lies in a compelling reminder of why we do what we do.

NOTES:

(1) Utne Visionaries: People Who Could Change Your Life (1995). Utne Reader. Retrieved March 3, 2003, from http://cafe.utne.com/visionaries/95vision4.html

[Octafish]

1. Teresa shows why Kerry would make the best President.

Like his good wife's works and words, John Kerry cares for ALL people — rich and poor, majority and minority, D-I-R. A person of refinement, Teresa wouldn't marry Kerry if he wasn't the best. He's been there for us in combat, in the peace movement, as a crime fighting DA, as a Senator. The Liberal wing of the Democratic Party hasn't had a candidate this well-qualified and well-suited to serve as President since 1968. Teresa knows that, better than anyone.

[IndianaGreen]

4. I think Teresa will bring to the White House a grace not seen since

Jackie Kennedy. This would be quite remarkable considering that compared to the former Jackie Bouvier, Teresa is quite a commoner.

[Octafish]

6. C-SPAN covered her commencement address at Carnegie-Mellon...

... back in May. This all is from memory, so please forgive its nebulousity.

Teresa Heinz Kerry spoke softly, describing her upbringing in two worlds — a Portugese colony in Africa and in the West. She went from there to describe her concerns for her fellow humans and how good people work to make this a better world. She also described what the future could be like.

She asked the graduates to give it their best, that the fight was worth fighting, and that they should come home to Pittsburgh and strengthen the community first.

You're right, IndianaVerde. If Teresa were First Lady, the United States would be the community that would be getting improved, as would all our neighbors around the planet. She is that profound.

[IndianaGreen]

9. Check this out

I am a great fan of Teresa Heinz. Here is a great story about Teresa and John.


Sen . John Kerry and Teresa Heinz
at a gala benefit for the Pittsburgh
Opera last year. (Gabor Degre, Post-Gazette)

They are in the living room of their Georgetown home, where Heinz has lived ever since her late first husband, John Heinz, came to Washington in 1971 as a Republican congressman from Pennsylvania. In the front entrance, the first things a visitor sees are two framed photos of Teresa Heinz cuddled with tall, smiling men with big heads of brown hair: In one is John Kerry, in the other John Heinz.

<snip>

"That guy does not deserve diplomacy," says Heinz. She is referring to Sen. Rick Santorum, the Pennsylvania Republican who offended her in 1994 during his campaign for John Heinz's old Senate seat. She won't elaborate on what Santorum said to earn her enmity, only that she won't speak to him again.

"He's changed," Kerry mumbles, trying to keep this from becoming an on-the-record spectacle. The Massachusetts Democrat tries to add that he gets along with his colleague, but Heinz interrupts. "Sweetie, I know," Kerry says, talking over her, "I'm just saying ..."

He exhales a long, loud sigh.

http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020605teresanat1p1.asp

[Eloriel]

26. You're kidding, right?

I can't get past her botox treatments.

And I think it's great for people to be outspoken, but she goes overboard and thinks nothing of it. (Loose cannon-mouth.) I do NOT like the woman, what little I've seen and know about her. I think she'll be a detriment to Kerry's campaign -- if not now, later.

Eloriel

[IndianaGreen]

27. Listen to what you are saying

If a man speaks his mind, he is called straightforward or a straight shooter, if a woman does it, she is called "loose cannon-mouth."

I really like her a lot.

[sangh0]

54. Dean speaks his mind, and Eloriel LOVES Dean

Kerry's wife does the same and she's "loose cannon-mouth", even though Eloriel can't point to one statement she's made that did any damage to her husband.

[evil_orange_cat]

2. trust me, you don't want get rid of the American-born clause...

three words...


AHHHNOLDD for president!!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[IndianaGreen]

5. That clause is an anachronism, particularly in the 21st century

No other country in the world has such a restriction, and there is no need for it. It was put in the Constitution by the Framers because they were fearful that an English-born President would return the fledgin American republic to the English Crown.

Such paranoia is no longer justified.

[evil_orange_cat]

8. if it keeps ahnold out of the white house...

then I'm for it... :D

And in all honesty, I think it's a good thing. BTW, I'm was the first American born in my family. ;)

Also, that's a pretty bold assertion that "no other country in the world has such a restriction".

[Freddie Stubbs]

52. There is currently a bill in Congress to repeal this provision

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:10:./temp/~bdE39I:@@@L&summ2=m&|/bss/d108query.html|

[curse10]

3. I love Teresa

she's a lovely person :-)

[Cleita]

7. Teresa will be dumped on the minute she refuses

to be a "traditional first lady". I would like to see her do what Hillary Clinton has done and become a person in her own right.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Teresa Heinz can run circles around Hillary

and Teresa is not a calculating and pandering politician like Hillary can be.

[Cleita]

14. Whether she's calculating or pandering is not the issue.

I see that you admire her and there is a lot to admire. My point is that she be a person in her own right. Hillary was not a really good White House cow and I don't think any first lady should be. You seem to be buying into the grace and charm argument for first ladies too.

[IndianaGreen]

16. Actually, I was advocating Teresa for the top job

which is why I mentioned the ridiculous Constitutional provision that bars naturalized American citizens from the Presidency.

[Cleita]

17. I understood the point of your post, but I did diverge.

Orrin Hatch is trying to change that Constitutional provision so Arnold Schwarzenegger can run for President after he has finished trashing California. It would be fine if Teresa or someone like her could run instead.

However, remember that the worst dictators of our century ran countries they weren't born in. Germany's Hitler was an Austrian of dubious German citizenship. Stalin was a Georgian, not Russian.

I don't know the answer and I don't pretend to. It would seem that the cream should rise to the top and that there shouldn't be any artificial barriers to prevent it. However, history gives you reason to pause. Who would push their way to the top, the good or the bad?

[IndianaGreen]

18. Yet, the biggest traitors and spies in American history

were all "natural born" citizens. No other industrialized country has such a restriction for the top job in the nation. In Israel it is even easier, if you are Jewish, you get automatic citizenship the moment you set foot at the airport and you can run for the Knesset (and if you get or buy enough votes, you could become Prime Minister). Big Dog would win by a landslide if he were to convert.

[fujiyama]

39. Big Dog would probably win

by a landslide in MANY nations were he to go and live there. I know in India he's very popular...and I've heard he's quite popular in Canada and Ireland as well...

[sandnsea]

11. I adore Teresa

She's an amazing woman. My favorite, from when she received the Albert Schweitzer Humanitarian Award this year:

"Decades later and the width of the continent away, I experienced it growing up in Mozambique. Touched by my father’s example and guided and inspired by nature, I learned about the order and respect, the understanding and generosity that come from living in harmony with the natural world. The African savannah was my earliest classroom. It taught me that nature has rules, like not going swimming at dawn or dusk when the sharks and crocodiles feed, indeed when animals feed and drink, and that life is much easier when you follow those rules. Crocodiles, though, are persuasive teachers.

Those rules taught me something else, and I felt it every time I would dangle upside down in the guava tree outside our house, or see a boab standing lonely vigil against an impossibly starry sky. It was there in the kindness of the people, and in the dreamy lilac hues of the jacarandas that ambled down the avenues like bridesmaids in procession. It was a profound sense of connection, a sense of all life being knitted together, in ways that gave purpose to every individual, every animal, and every plant."
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_0923.html

But if people would get to know John Kerry, they'd know he is just as amazing as she is. There's a reason she married him. It frustrates me to know what this country is allowing to pass by. From the Kerry windsurfer interview:

"Our country is important. What happens to people is important. Where we are heading globally with respect to huge issues-proliferation, the environment, the technology revolution-these are going to require very significant levels of leadership.

When I say confrontation it is the confrontation of truth and realities. Look at what's happening to deforestation in less developed countries. Look at the lack of water facilities and the lack of transfer of technology. The current crisis in our oceans that are globally distressed because of overfishing, the lack of discipline. This is an ecosystem. It's related. It's all interrelated, and I couldn't rest with myself if I wasn't somehow engaged in trying to confront those forces and help abate them-whether it's on the larger stage of running nationally, or whether it's as a United States Senator or whether it's as a citizen. I mean, Teresa (his wife) is deeply involved in working on those issues and nobody has elected her.

You can do these things from all kinds of vantage points. I think it's absolutely vital that we now choose to do these things. I happen to be in this position today doing it through this office, but I did it before I got here and I will continue to do it after I leave."

http://www.americanwindsurfer.com/mag/back/issue5.5a.html

And one more:

"I went to Jerusalem a number of years ago on an official journey to Israel and I was absolutely fascinated by the 32 or so different branches of Catholicism that were there. That's before you even get to the conflict between Arabs and Jews. I have spent a lot of time since then trying to understand these fundamental differences between religions in order to really better understand the politics that grow out of them. So much of the conflict on the face of this planet is rooted in religions and the belief systems they give rise to. The fundamentalism of one entity or another.

So I really wanted to try to learn more. I've spent some time reading and thinking about it and trying to study it and I've arrived at not so much a sense of the differences but a sense of the similarities in so many ways; the value system roots and the linkages between the Torah, the Koran and the Bible and the fundamental story that runs through all of this, that connects us-and really connects all of us.
And so I've also always been fascinated by the Transcendentalists and the Pantheists and others who found these great connections just in nature, in trees, the ponds, the ripples of the wind on the pond, the great feast of nature itself. I think it's all an expression that grows out of this profound respect people have for those forces that human beings struggle to define and to explain. It's all a matter of spirituality.

I find that even - even atheists and agnostics wind up with some kind of spirituality, maybe begrudgingly acknowledging it here and there, but it's there. I think it's really intriguing. For instance, thinking about China, the people and their policy-how do we respond to their view of us? And how do they arrive at that view of us and of the world and of life choices? I think we have to think about those things in the context of the spiritual to completely understand where they are coming from. So here are a people who, you know, by and large, have a nation that has no theory of creationism. Well, that has to effect how you approach things. And until we think through how that might effect how you approach things, it's hard to figure out where you could find a meeting of the minds when approaching certain kinds of issues.

So, the exploration of all these things I find intriguing. Notwithstanding our separation between church and state, it is an essential ingredient of trying to piece together an approach to some of the great vexing questions we have internationally."

[IndianaGreen]

12. Good post, sandnsea

and like you, I adore Teresa.

[sandnsea]

13. Did you read it???

Dammit, how could you read it and not have a kind word to say about John???? You dont' have to vote for the man, support the man, or forgive the man; but come on, there has to be SOMETHING after reading that!

[IndianaGreen]

15. For me to reply specifically to you would detract from the thread

I have issues with John Kerry, one issue in particular, and I have expressed my views on that particular topic on more than one occasion.

I think that John could listen to Teresa a bit more for political advice.

Look at the John-Teresa exchange about Rick Santorum:

But John Heinz's enduring presence in Teresa's life is best revealed when someone slights his memory. Which, at least indirectly, is why she and Kerry are now in mid-bicker.

"That guy does not deserve diplomacy," says Heinz. She is referring to Sen. Rick Santorum, the Pennsylvania Republican who offended her in 1994 during his campaign for John Heinz's old Senate seat. She won't elaborate on what Santorum said to earn her enmity, only that she won't speak to him again.

"He's changed," Kerry mumbles, trying to keep this from becoming an on-the-record spectacle. The Massachusetts Democrat tries to add that he gets along with his colleague, but Heinz interrupts. "Sweetie, I know," Kerry says, talking over her, "I'm just saying ..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A39691-2002May31

I think most of us in DU, regardless of which candidate we backed, would side with Teresa and refuse to be polite to a gnome like Santorum.

[sandnsea]

19. But that's Bush

He doesn't think he has to be polite to people who are diametrically opposed to him. That's why we're in this mess around the world, and in Congress. Right wingers who are rolling right over top of people. To suggest we elect a President to do the same thing doesn't make alot of sense. He's able to be tough, look at how tough he's been on Vietnam normalization. But he's also able to talk to anybody, even Jesse Helms. That's how he got support for investigating Iran/Contra and drug smuggling back in the 80's. We're making a mistake thinking we can put a trash-talker into the White House and accomplish anything. It won't work.

And the conversation cracks me up because I've had it with my own husband. No, I don't have to be nice to so and so. We'd probably be more economically secure if I had. He doesn't let people's stupidity get to him, he just goes out and gets the job done.

[IndianaGreen]

20. Rick Santorum is not just someone we don't agree with

He is also a man that is pushing for legislation to hurt people. Politeness only goes so far, at least where I come from.

[JohnKleeb]

21. He's a scumbag all right

BTW I didnt know you had much respect for Mrs. Heinz-Kerry. Good thread :thumbsup:. I wish her husband was more aggressive too on the wingers, and Santorium dont remind me :puke:.

[IndianaGreen]

22. We might have to vote for John Kerry come Election Day 2004

and he will make a better President than the petty tyrant we have in the White House today. If such an scenario were to become reality, John and Teresa will make a fascinating and exciting First Couple.

[JohnKleeb]

24. I understand that

of course he would. You know what, I cant wait to get Bush out. I wont vote for Kerry if hes the nominee :D, only because I cant vote, but I would if I could. Not a bad guy at all, I just wish he had stood up more, then he would be my candiate.

[sandnsea]

29. Kerry, standing up

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=5596.xml Sept 2002

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=5459.xml Jan 2003

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_marapr_2003/JKessay.html Mar 2003

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=5722.xml Mar 2003

And a whole list of articles and speeches where Kerry has stood up and criticized this Administration.

http://www.cfr.org/campaign/bio_kerry.php

[JohnKleeb]

31. great thanks

btw I know he has been, I just wish he a tad bit more but hes a good guy in my book you know that.

[sandnsea]

33. We want a dragon slayer

Super "K". I know.

But he does things differently. I'm just saying he's been out there, fighting Bush all along. The media would rather report on his hair or his money than what he's been saying for over a year. Very frustrating to me.

[JohnKleeb]

34. I know that

Kerry has been there I dont doubt that. I am sorry the media is like that, you know how they are with my guy. I am sorry if I sounded insensitve. Kerry is a good guy, worthly of support. I understand that, hes not that bad I will concede, and I will tell you this, I think he should be more popular here.

[sandnsea]

35. Yeah, you know too

Dennis has alot of really good things to say too, ALOT. He is popular here, but he should be even more popular here and out there too. My primary isn't until May and the primaries are usually wrapped up by then. If that's the case, I'm voting for Kucinich, I may anyway. I've been thinking about suggesting an after the primary show of support for Kucinich. Everybody in late primary states vote for him so we can show that's the direction we'd really prefer. Good idea?

[JohnKleeb]

36. I think its a good idea

:shrug: Your choice. You've come to like him as I have your guy. I know. Well I tell you what it is, its pragmatism, many people here like what he has to say, but they put him off as unelectable, hes a good guy. Dont you live in Montana? You know he visited recently.

[sandnsea]

37. In Oregon now

I lived in Montana for over 15 years, my heart will always be there. We've been debating about buying a house up there after our last kiddle is gone, for spring and summer. We plan to travel alot, business and pleasure. Anyway, I thought about having a house so far away from my family who will probably stay in Oregon. But then I thought, what better gift to my grandkids than Montana? If I have a house there, I know my kids will come up for summers and there's just something about the place that gets into you and changes you for the better. That quote I posted from Teresa is it, that's why I like it so much. So I may be headed back next year.

Dennis was in Eugene in August and I don't know how I missed it, but I did. I'm kicking myself believe me.

[JohnKleeb]

38. Oh

I bet he will be popular there I hope. Teresa seems like a great lady as do all the wives, and in their own unique way.

[sandnsea]

23. The U.S. Axis of Evil???

If we see the folly in calling Iraq, Iran and N Korea the Axis of Evil and painting their leaders into a corner; why don't we see the folly of alienating Senators and Congressmen to such a point that we create a civil war?

Democrats got alot of things for the people by being civil over the last 2 years. We'd be alot worse off if they hadn't fought for some of those tax cuts we got. No federal tax cuts, PLUS increased state and local taxes? We'd really be hurting and angry at the Democrats anyway. And alot of things haven't gone through. This disaster of an Energy Bill for one.

If the entire Democratic Party were just berating Congress at every turn, none of them would work with us, we'd push them into a corner, and they'd be even more united. Principles over personalities, that's the way you get things accomplished. Attack the principles, not the dingy personalities that are pushing them.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Did you ever play any sports, sandnsea?

Normally you have rules and everyone follows them, and there are officials to enforce the rules and when someone steps out of line, such as getting a yellow card in soccer, you are penalized. If you break the rules real bad, you'll get a red card and out of the game you go.

The political situation in this country is radically different from the way it was when we were growing up. We are now in a game where we are expected to follow the rules, while the other team makes the rules up as they go along with the blessing of the officials. What is one to do in such situations? Answer, beat them at their own game first, and then force everyone to play according to the rules as the game was intended to be played.

We are at war to rescue our nation from an authoritarian and extremist religious cabal. There are no holds barred!

[sandnsea]

28. You sound like PNAC

What are we to do with rogue nations that seek WMD and won't follow international law? Beat them at their own game first (war) and then force everyone to play the game as intended. As you well know, it's not that simple.

As that Kerry article stated, as well as Teresa's, it's ultimately a war of ideas. Understanding the opposition, changing minds, presenting your ideas in such a way that they are recognized as real solutions; that's the way to win over foreign countries and our own misguided right wing as well. This is a country based on the Constitution, not the Bible; separation of church and state. But you don't get that concept across by belittling them, you reteach them and reach out. Kerry gets that and it's one of the main reasons I support him.

[IndianaGreen]

30. Who are we to preach to other nations not to get WMDs?

It is ridiculous for us to scream at Iran for WMDs when Israel has more nukes than any nation other than us, and we have enough WMDs to destroy this planet thousands of times over.

Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive wars, a doctrine to which the Congress acquiesced to when it passed IWR, forces many other nations to seek WMDs for self-defense.

While I was speaking of brutal tactics against the rightwing in America, once they are deposed whether by elections or revolution, we will have to restore the rule of law in this country, and restore our respect for international law and collective security.

[sandnsea]

32. Exactly

But you're missing the forest for the trees. Which candidate is most likely to do something about those WMD's, in every country? Do you know which candidate has actually done something about the U.S. selling arms to foreign nations? Do you know which candidate has came out clearly against Bush's nuclear weapons programs and the Moscow Treaty? Most likely Dennis, but who else? Dig deeper, look at things each person has said and done over the years and then see who you really trust to get this done. And don't cherry pick, look at everything.

And you keep going back to this deposing of the right wing. Sorry, they're your fellow Americans. They've always been there, they'll always be there. Last week I posted a quote from JFK and a conversation between Rose Mary Woods and Nixon. The right railing against liberals has been going on for decades. I'll google it all up for you if you missed it. They're here and we're going to have to fight them by being smarter, not just beating them into submission only to have them pop up again in another 20 years.

Please, read. We desperately need a President.:

http://www.cfr.org/campaign/bio_kerry.php

And as to that war vote, you've got to think about its real purpose at the time. It wasn't to enable Bush's pre-emptive doctrine. It was a vote to begin the task of confronting weapons proliferation, at least from Kerry's perspective. If you read what he said from Sept 2002 on, in that link I gave you, I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion. Those weapons are real, terrorists are real, rogue nations are real. Bush is the way wrong answer to it all. Let's make sure we get the right answer next fall.

[IndianaGreen]

40. Why is it that Kerry's supporters do a better job than Kerry?

Why is it that Kerry's supporters do a better job than Kerry at defending and presenting Kerry's record? The answer to that question is the reason why Kerry is trailing in the polls.

There is a increasing chasm separating those that supported, and still support the IWR vote, and those that opposed it. The daily body counts from Iraq are a reminder of how short-sightened and unwise the vote for IWR was. Kerry is not doing himself any favors by trying to rationalize that fateful vote. His excuses make him look incompetent (the debunked WMD claims), and his defense that he expected Bush to work with the UN makes Kerry look incredibly naive, as he did when he told Teresa Heinz that Rick Santorum was a changed man.

The biggest problem facing Kerry is that his IWR vote contradicts most of the speeches he gave prior to taking that vote. Kerry's inability to admit he a made a mistake with IWR has effectively neutralized him as an opponent of Bush.

And you keep going back to this deposing of the right wing. Sorry, they're your fellow Americans.

The Nazis didn't see their victims as humans, anymore than the rightwing views liberals and gays as humans. You are dealing with people that will not hesitate to murder you as Matthew Shepard was murdered. You are dealing with people that have already succeeded in suspending Constitutional guarantees and international law.

When the Left says that America is now the Germany of 1933-34, it is not hyperbole!

[sandnsea]

46. This is just sad

First of all, Matthew Shepard was killed by a couple of drunk local yocals who probably didn't know anything about politics and hadn't been in a church in years. That had more to do with the killing mentality in America than the right wing. A killing mentality you're endorsing here, I might add. I'm not saying ignore the right, I'm saying we're not going to get anywhere building more animosity. That would be along the lines of expecting peace and working towards it peacefully, like Dennis would promote.

Second, you're doing the exact same thing with this Rick Santorum quote that is being done in this election as a whole. He didn't say Rick Santorum is a changed man, you put that in there. I have no idea what he said to Teresa. All Kerry says is that "he's changed", meaning he recognizes he was either wrong to say what he said or he was wrong on the issue altogether. That doesn't mean he's suddenly a changed man and sees the light on every issue; only in context to whatever he said to her.

Third, the vote didn't cause the war. Bush's failed diplomacy caused the war. Bush's lies caused the war. Kerry's speeches in Sept, Oct, Jan, Feb, and March are all EXACTLY the same. He hasn't moved an inch from his position. If you'd read them in the link I gave you, you'd see that. Kerry would probably have the situation under control right now with our troops still safely in Kuwait.

Fourth, the issue isn't the vote. It's weapons proliferation and what we do about countries that are seeking these weapons. Even Dennis supported lifting sanctions, a strong weapons inspections program and ensuring Iraq was not sold weapons. Why would he say all of that if he didn't think Iraq had weapons and shouldn't? The issue is how do you get from where we were in October 2002 to a functioning Iraq. Dennis supported continued diplomacy alone. Kerry didn't see that as feasible because he'd been engaged in it for 5 years and it wasn't working. So if they both had the same goal, how can you fault one for deciding it was time to apply pressure, the threat of military action? It was a tough decision, his kids say they had never seen him in more turmoil than over this war.

Kerry is saying this, over and over. You don't want to hear it, you don't want to hear any other view than war is always wrong and America is always wrong. The problem with that is if you were in charge, Americans would die because you'd never see that there are people who really do want to kill us. Literally, today. Not some hyperbolic view of the right, rather real people who hate all of us.

Moving the world into a safer, unified place is going to be very tricky. You better think long and hard on it. We've seen with I/P that you can't make progress as long as both sides engage in violence. We've seen with Afghanistan that disengaged countries grow terrorists. We've seen from 9/11 that diplomacy alone isn't always enough.

Who do you really think has the ability to lead the world to a more harmonious place AND protect the security of citizens around the world at the same time? Certainly not Bush. Dennis? What would he have done about Rwanda, Kosovo, Bosnia? Continued diplomacy while thousands died? How long? Howard? He says a rogue nation has WMD and supports a war resolution; then turns around and says he's anti-war. Clark? Maybe, but I'd sure feel more comfortable with somebody who had actually already normalized relations with a foreign country, like Kerry has with Vietnam.

This election is critical and it's way too important to let the fact of that vote cloud the circumstances leading up to and the global situation as a whole. Who can change the course we're on the quickest, here and overseas? Seems like only one person in my estimation.

[IndianaGreen]

48. The war is being framed as a crusade to save Western civilization

by DLC Democrats such as Lieberman:

Lieberman Warns of Global Religious War
1 hour, 27 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Iraq is the testing ground that will determine whether fanatical Muslims go to war against other religions, including moderate Islam, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Lieberman said Sunday.

"There is no substitute for victory here. We must pull together across party lines, here in the United States, and we have to pull together with the rest of the world in a way that President Bush has not been able to accomplish yet," Lieberman said.

Lieberman, considered the most centrist of the nine Democratic candidates, was an early and strong supporter of the invasion of Iraq, sponsoring the resolution that authorized it. He has accused Bush, however, of arrogance and unilateralism in failing to recruit stronger international backing.

The world must be convinced, the Connecticut senator said, "that victory in the conflict we're in in Iraq now matters as much to them in the civilized world as it does to the United States of America."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=703&e=4&u=/ap/20031130/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_lieberman

This is the rabbit hole that was opened by the IWR vote. Will Kerry denounce Lieberman? Will any Democratic candidate denounce this Holy Crusade that Bush started and that Lieberman has endorsed?

[sandnsea]

49. Don't throw Lieberman at me

Stooping to right wing tactics? Where has Kerry ever said this was a holy war??? You're doing the same thing here as you did with that Santorum quote and the war vote in general, injecting things into it that don't belong there. Now a vote to enforce UN resolutions OR protect U.S. security is somehow the cause of Lieberman's rantings about a Holy Way??? One has nothing to do with the other and you know it. This is why we need someone like Kerry, a diplomatic, intelligent leader who can deal with all of this insanity. Otherwise, we're going to end up in more wars, not less.

[Scott Lee]

51. US security was never at a threat. That's the lie of IWR.

So I would, therefore, not be couching this issue in terms of US security. Kerry is not an evil, insane man. He's just ineffective with this issue, and a Bush enabler when it comes to war.

Lieberman on the other hand needs to be dumped into the dustbin with the rest of the religious zealots.

[PaDUer]

41. Does anyone know what

Santorum said to Teresa in 1994 that has her upset and she won't forget?

[IndianaGreen]

42. Santorum is an Opus Dei-style Catholic

I can only guess at what sort of insensitive, sexist, bigoted shit he could possibly could have done or said to infuriate Teresa Heinz.

[PaDUer]

43. Santorum is a disgrace

I've been trying to search what was said..Apparently it was something to do about Teresa being a repub and not supporting him when he ran for her late husband's office because she was dating a D senator from Mass..Have also been finding reports about his manhood being attacked.

[Dr Satan]

44. hillary's ego

is too large to allow another female into the limelight.

[SheilaT]

45. I, too admire

Teresa Heinz Kerry, and I'm in absolute awe of her botox and plastic surgery.

The truth of the matter is the vast majority of men are not comfortable around outspoken, strong women. It's why Hillary is so reviled. It's why any woman who clearly marches to her own drummer gets a great deal of criticism.

Women in the performing arts generally are allowed more leaway, but even then they're expected to be reasonably traditional.

If we ever get a House and Senate that is at least 50 percent women it will be a far, far better place. Right now the women who are there have to be female men to function. Somewhere I read that an institution has to be somewhere between 30 and 40 percent female for the culture to change. Maybe, someday . . . .

[blm]

47. Kerry did more for this nation by exposing the BFEE

during his investigations of BCCI, IranContra and CIA drugrunning. It was valuable historically because it let us into the world run by the Bush loyalists and because the exposure also helped Clinton win office in 92.

Kerry is no slouch in doing good in the world, IG. When he signs the Kyoto Accord, which he helped craft for ten years, within his first year of office, I expect you will finally start to give him some credit.

[Scott Lee]

50. Great. Then he should stay in Congress.

I think he does less damage there.

[blm]

53. While you support a guy who wouldn't stand against Reagan-Bush

on their illegal contra wars? Who refused to replace Republican appointees when he took over as governor? Who doesn't campaign the same as he governed?

[Scott Lee]

56. Wow, was Dean in the US Congress then?

Whats that? He wasn't?

OK, thanks.

[blm]

57. No, he wasn't, but he didn't side with those Democrats who opposed

Reagan and Bush's illegal wars. Dean said he had "mixed feelings" about it. Sheesh.

Come to think of it, Dean wouldn't stand with Kerry and Gore when they criticized Bush's military strategy in Afghanistan even though Bush clearly bungled and allowed Bin Laden and most of al Qaeda to escape. Dean sided with Bush.

[Scott Lee]

58. Like Kerry, Gep and Lieberman who enabled Bush's war?

Funny, that. Someone who was never even in a congressional position to oppose Reagan's wars is more culpable in your eyes then real Congressmen who actually went along with Bush's wars.

Ponderous.

[sangh0]

55. Cheapshot

Rove is envious