Thanksgiving with a "moderate."

[Code_Name_D]

Thanksgiving with a "moderate."
November 27. The beginning of a long day. First thing I had to do was get up. And for one who is NOT a morning person, this is not always an easy, nor a pleasant thing. But on my first day off, I STILL had to get up early and be on the road to head for my sister's place where she and her husband were going to host there first Thanksgiving day for the family.

It was a pleasant enough evening. But my house hold is no different than many of yours as the in-laws are rabid right wingers. It is NEVER wise to bring up politics in there presence. But fortunately they do not bring it up politics either. And when it dose come up, it is always about local politics. Which is interesting because you just might mistake them for liberals. Of course, this is probably because Limbaugh and Savage generally do not try to program folks for local government, other than the general "government is bad" mantra."

And it is here that my dad makes me proud. Make no mistake, my dad is very intelligent, and a very able debater in his own right. He sees right through the racism and paranoia of Micelle Savage as if it was chills play. Indeed, it was many of his views and sensibilities that you read in my words. When I finally became of age, politics became a past time between the two of us. And not because we always agreed.

Alas, the two of us have drifted apart sense 2000. And for a time, it was a painful rift. After 9-11, up to recently, he sounded more like a foam at the mouth right winger, and blood it seemed only sharpened the spears of words, not blunting them. But we have made progress. Slowly closing that gap between us. Unfortunately, the divisions that sparked the gap in the first place, are still there, still not addressed.

Never the less, there were "signs of hope" coming from him as late. In a recently in a phone conversation, he bluntly volunteered the opinion that "we have to get rid of Bush this next election. We just have to get rid of him." He has finally come around and conceded that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction, and concedes that Bush was "less than forthcoming." He also expressed concerns about Clark, siting the shallowness of his campaign, and how it just seem that Clark expected votes, rather than trying to win support. That truly surprised me giving how glowing he was of Clark when he heard him announce. I swear, I did not spoil Clark for him. As I said, he is very intelligent in his own right.

These signs were so hopeful in fact that I have been considering weather I would want to tell him that I attend the monthly protests at JC Nicoles Parkway in Kansas City (Every last Sunday at 4:00PM, FYI.) And dare I even dream that he would join me on the street. That he would join the rest of us. But I still wasn't sure exactly what his positions were. From my sister's place, there was going to be a three hour ride back to his house up north. It was during this time I was hopping to feel out his opinions, and see how they had changed. Alas, many of my hopes were unfounded, and I may have foolishly yawed the chasm between us even further.

Never the less, my father has a saying. No man is do dumb or foolish, that you can not learn from him. Though he many not appreciate the lessens you carry away. And my Thanksgiving was none the less and enlightening one. With numerous observations that are worthy of being shared.

My dad the demographic.
I often here from the Clark camp how we have to go after "the center." Well, my dad would have to be part of that center, even though he doesn’t fit any definition ever given to me of the center. For one thing, he has never voted for a Republican, and he can't stand them. As he puts it, "I try to keep an open mind, but when it comes time to pull the handle, it's awfully hard to vote for a Republican."

I guess he would fit into that NASCAR Dad spectrum, except his children have long senses moved away. Never the less, he is that "center" you keep hearing about.

But he isn't any kind of center you want to count on. For much of his positions are built on foundations of deception laid down by Republicans. And not because he trust the Republcians, but because he sees the GOP being backed by the Democrats.

My dad supports the war in Iraq. And dose so largely because Gepheardt supports it. This is a good example of why the Democrat's search for the center is so flawed. As the Dems make compromises with the Republicans, it give them credibility. While at the same time, robbing me of mine. After all, how can I say that Bush lied about WMD? If that were true, don't you think that the Democrats would have said something?

He still supports the war, and he still supports Bush for doing so, saying "it's about time some one did something in the Middle East." But his support is conditional. He expects that we are restoring Iraq, just as he presumes Bush didn't deliberately target civilians. We need to go after the terrorists, but we need to make damn sure that we know who we are getting, and not just racking up a body count as we did in Vietnam. If he was even to suspect these things, than you better believe he would be in the streets with the rest of us.

But of course, he doesn’t suspect. Largely because he doesn’t have any knowledge that contradicts this. This is primarily because he watches and trusts Fox News.

What you do not know. Secrets hidden in the open.
The Nature of Propaganda.
It is not in the lies they tell you.
But in the truth they do not.
My dad is aware of this simple notion. Unfortunately, what he is not aware of, is that it must be applied to the US media. "America still has a free press," he tells me, "And if the liberals and progressives can not get on the air, it is because their agenda is to extremist to be accepted by the public." He also tells me that "If they think Bush is any thing like Hitler, than they are grossly misinformed. France and Germany should know better." He has also developed a bias against every thing from the internet, and rolls his eyes at any information I may draw from it. Even government documents are suspect.

Of course, his ignorance about the issues is truly staggering. He knows nothing about PNAC, he has heard nothing about the Grand Chess Board, nothing about the current investigations into 9-11, nothing about the many business deals of the Bush family. He is not aware that many of Bush's administration were convicted of one crime or another, and unaware that Henry Kisinger is wanted for war crimes. He doesn’t know about the Coup in Venezuela, let alone know that the CIA and the School of the Americas were its architects, or why we did it for the oil. It is unaware of just how deep the economic problems are that faces the US, or just how much the world despises Bush, and why. You name it, he has not heard of a single peep about these things from Fox News.

Just think about this for a moment. Remove these things from your understanding, and your opinion of Bush is bound to change. Mike Malloy and few other commentators have bagged rather hard of people like this. People who just do not know. They defend this argument because most Americans do not know, because they do not care. But I must take issue with this. Ignorance while not being defendable is also not prosecutable either. As the old saying goes, garbage in, garbage out. And how can some one be upset, with what they do not know?

This is the real problem with propaganda. Its not as much that many Americans believe the lies told in the media. Some one who is savvy and paying attention can usually see through such forms of deception. My father is just such a person. And so too I trust are many Americans. But it's not the lie we need to be concerned with, but the absence of the truth.

And try as I might, I just can not bring it to him. The Democrats could how ever. Which is why I am so angry at the Dems as they are so quick to back Bush with his pet projects, and so extraordinarily slow to criticizes Bush. These things give the GOP lots of political support, as Americans like my dad take the Dems at there word, and agree with the GOP.

The Ugly Face of Criticism.
Behold the face of the lie, and how beautifully it is crafted.
Behold the face of the truth, and how hideous it is to the eye.
As you might have guessed, the ride home was a long one. And the quality and attentiveness of my driving was probably less than idea because of the intense emotions between the two of us in the confined dark cab of The Blue Runner, my trusty Saturn. It was on the ride home that I let him have that one dark truth that I wasn't sure he could handle. The probability that 9-11 happened by neo-con's design.

I had actually been preparing for this. Dedicating to memory, much if the information to support this. And as I feared, it was for naught. My dad did not believe it, and thought significantly less of me for saying so. Call it the "humanity" defense, but my dad simply could not conceive that any one would do such a thing.

I find this is an intolerable. Bush had a had in condemning 3000 Americans to death by foreign aggressors, and ordered the killing of untold tens of thousands of civilians, and it is MY humanity he chooses to attack for bringing these things up?

Exactly how dose one tell the truth about a monster, without painting him as a monster? Answer this, and the resistance will be one step closer to defeating the neo-cons. But this is part of the problem that we are faced with.

Unfortunately, some of that ugliness is unwarranted. This last Friday, I finally got him to sit down in front of his computer, told him how to log on, and got him to look at the Democratic Underground. It did NOT make a good first impression on him. The Top Ten Conservative Idiot's for example is just as bad as any thing Rush says. Things did not get better as he explored the message board as the first, and last thread he looked at, was of the "I hate America" variety. Suddenly, the ball game held renewed interest, and I realized that this old horse just wasn't going to take a drink. Now mind you, he could still surprise and give the DU a second chance. It's possible that he could reading this now. Stranger things have been known to happen. But some how I doubt it.

And there are just enough negative slurs against Bush on the internet to confirm the right wing charges of a liberal bias against Bush, noting that "Bush can't do any thing with some automatically criticizing him for it. They just wont give him a chance."

And I do fear this is a legitimate problem within the left's attempt to resist the neo-cons. A failing I have noticed at the protests in Kansas City. A few there insist on getting into peoples face, and shouting them down. Some times making me fear that it might come to blow, or that the police might be forced to haul them away. The last thing we need to do is probe the neo-cons right by being so petty and visceral. I have never seen any one win an argument by shouting down the other, and doubt I ever will.

Such "aggressive protesting" in fact hardens there position. And when my father sees it, he becomes suspicious of us, not of Bush's administration. After all, he who raises accusations without evidence brings suspicion upon himself. The neo-cons are aware of this, and try to use it against us.

It doses present a fine line for us to walk. Because while we should refrain from unnecessary slurs, and be very alert for making false accusations. We on the left still need to claim the right to come to conclusions, no mater how ugly they may be. Something that I did tell my father as he called me on my audacity to make such outrageous and egregious claims against Bush. It seems that both conservatives and liberals are encouraged to haven an open mind, but only conservatives are aloud to make them. From the information I have seen, I am forced to conclude that Bush is was behind September 11th. No mater how offended he was by it.

But there are many truths that we must come for confront. And we are long over do. Ironically, I remember reading in 1986, how following the fall of the Soviet Union, how the Russians had to face Glasnoes, and then Parastroiky. And that I read that America had a phase of Glasnoes waiting for it, as we must come to terms with the inner working of the CIA and Energy Department's "skunk works." The aftermath of Vietnam, and the full accounting of the JFK assassinations.

Obviously, that Glasnoes never arrived for us. Not all of us any way. And this is a true shame. You see my dad loves America. And if there is any one that has a right to know the truth, it would be him, and other American's like him.

Instead, they are fed a tapestry of attractive lies. All rooted in Mom, and apple pie. He can list off 20 nations that we invaded senses WWII, and even lived through most of them. But he still believes with all of his heart that "America dose not invade other countries." And it is a tapestry of lies woven not just by Republicans, but by Democrats as well. Both of whom would lie to him, just as quickly as the other.

I can forgive the Republicans for there whole sale destruction of America, for I know that they are simply following there nature. But I can not forgive the Democrats lying to my dad. While the likes of Tom Dashel may continue to lie to me, he can no longer deceive me. But they can still deceive my father, and when he dose finally catch on, it will be a bitter pill for him to swallow indeed.

[Zorra]

1. Take heart.

The things that you said to your dad will bear fruit. I could tell from your post that your dad respects you. Some of what you said to him got through. I remember doing a similar thing with my dad, and coming back a year later and being presently surprised when I found that he had obviously pondered what I had said, and had come to the conclusion that a lot of it was true. But that was before 2000, the volume of lies and hidden truths have grown enormously since then. Your dad has a lot more to contend with all of a sudden.

"But it's not the lie we need to be concerned with, but the absence of the truth."

I thought your post was really good. When the media fails to report the truth, we must become the media and report it ourselves, like you did for your dad.

[Don_G]

2. I'm A Moderate

And fiscally and environmentally responsible. What's wrong with that?

You can't propose a radical agenda under any circumstances without losing, but you can be responsible and work with the opposition party to do whats right...like Clinton leaving a surplus for example?

I, for one, believe in the strict enforcement of the laws already on the books. EPA laws are already designed to protect our natural resources - like water - from the business decisions of Enron to create another Industry like Coca-Cola to furnish a safe supply of drinking water at $30 a gallon and more.

If you make a mess, clean it up. It's far more efficent to put your litter in a bag and drop it off than to strew it all over the country and a lot less costly too.

Same way with the other Industries in the US. Recognize a problem and deal with it then rather than pass the buck to others and later generations.

I work Construction and I'm not exactly a big fan of OSHA and MSA due to the nit-picking wording of the law, but a friend of mine made me realize that the regulations were literally written in the "blood" of others.

I can't argue with that, especially with a life-long Dem.

[Code_Name_D]

7. The differences between moderate, and liberal.

Thanks to Rush Limbaugh, being liberal is akin to being a communist. So much so that there are already several black listing attempts for collage professors and Hollywood actors, writers, and directors. And yet it is we liberals who are painted as "extremists."

The nature of liberalism and progressivism is to objectively address the issues that we face with practical solutions. Unfortunately, as liberals are always painted as redials, the objective solutions to our problem are always taken off the table. Dooming you to wasting time and effort with solutions to problems that can not work, or make the situation worse. So a moderate find himself is an no-win situation, because every thing the to will fail because they are not permitted the intellectual freedom needed to deal with issues.

Your example is a good case in point.

I, for one, believe in the strict enforcement of the laws already on the books. EPA laws are already designed to protect our natural resources - like water - from the business decisions of Enron to create another Industry like Coca-Cola to furnish a safe supply of drinking water at $30 a gallon and more.

If you make a mess, clean it up. It's far more efficent to put your litter in a bag and drop it off than to strew it all over the country and a lot less costly too.

I can agree with this. Unfortunately, this sentiment is strictly rhetorical, and is not aware of the facts on the ground.

1) The EPA laws are not adequate. They never were. Even under Clinton, the actions and rulings of the EPA could be stalled indefinitely by court litigation and endless appeals. Until Bush took power, and suddenly the EPA began loosing many of its litigation's. The industry then challenges the EPA's guidelines in court, with the feds conceding, effectively striking down the EPA regulations. Recent bills signed into law by Bush, such as the "Clear skies" and "Healthy Forrest" initiatives actively erodes if not appealing many of the EPA regulations.

Super Fun has proven to be a dismal failure. It was intended to be a massive fiscal resources to fun clean up toxic waste spills left behind by corporations. The idea being that the gov would just move in and clean up the mess, then bill the corporations for the clean up. But most of the super fund ended up in court litigation to enforces the fees. Mean while, corporations could recognize, escaping responsibility and liability for there own palliating. Coleman did this a lot in Wichita. It's still the same plant, making the same product, by the same employees, with the same management. But because the subcontractor "re-orged", it's legal a whole new company.

2) Enron is NOT prevented from privatizing the water supply here. The water supply in certain areas of California and Florida has been privatizes. Just as health care, education, electricity, communications, have all been privatized. Its like saying that the neo-cons will never be able to take the north hill, while ignoring that they have taken the east, west, and south hills.

3) This is actually neo-con logic. The exact same argument has been used by the NRA to resist new gun legislation for decades. They say that the "laws are sufficient, they just need to be informed" in regards to keeping guns out of the hands of those who should have them. They always make this argument when legislators try to close the gun show, dealer, and mail order loop holes that buy pass all back ground check systems. It's easier to become a dealer here in the US, than to get married.

But even if the laws were adequate, ask yourself, why are they not being enforced? This in and of itself is an inadequacy that should be addressed. But legislation written from a moderates point of view never seems to have any teeth.

I have to say it. Moderates are not "less radical" as you might be lead to believe, only less informed, while being far more trusting of the Republicans. The moderate position even seems to demand that the Republicans are to be considered "horrible people" and to do so by ignoring the long list of dishonorable things that they do in order to get there way. Moderates believe in compromising with those who will not compromise.

And ironically, you are aware of this. It just has not crystallized.

I work Construction and I'm not exactly a big fan of OSHA and MSA due to the nit-picking wording of the law, but a friend of mine made me realize that the regulations were literally written in the "blood" of others.

You can not argue with this, not because your friend is a Democrat, that is irrelevant. But because the OSHA regulations are written in blood. Work place casualties and injures are investigated, resulting with new regulations designed against permitting a repeat of the accidents. And you can see this at work as many regulations are designed for personnel and equipment safety.

But exactly what is too "nit picky" with the OSHA regs that bothers you? Could it be the Limbaugh lie that OSHA demands holes be drilled in the bottom of buckets to prevent children from drowning in them? That sounds pretty radical to me. Now I suspect you know this is a lie, but has this knowledge prompted you to question the "pettiness" of the regulations? And were you aware that OSHA also has a review process in place. If the hole in the bucket reg. was true, employers could challenge the reg., or even apply for an exception.

The only difference between a liberal and a moderate, is information.

[DFLforever]

3. Quite a remarkable narrative, Code_Name_D

I'm not sure where to begin in my response...you say so much. What's most interesting in your post is your summation of media culpability, not it's telling of lies, but its witholding of fact and truth...and the enabling role of the Democratic leadership to Bush's power and control.

I understand the delicacy of your relationship with your father...I have a similar relationship not with a parent but with my son, an independent 'moderate', complacent, prosperous and much less willing than your father to deal with disturbing information about the present government. I wouldn't even think of approaching 9-11 with him...but I have developed a strategy of chipping away at his complacency bit by bit.

You shouldn't underestimate your influence on your dad. I suspect he is thinking a good deal more about what you two have discussed than you might imagine.

[Andy_Stephenson]

4. I wish I could get the message.

Across to my family. I am the lone progressive. I agree with you on several point...statements you made. You were spot on.

[DUreader]

5. kick

[SheilaT]

6. As wonderful as DU is,

it's not the place to send someone for their first look at the opposition to W.

My husband has put up an entire page of links.

http://home.everestkc.net/geof.newman/

As you can see, he has lots and lots of stuff on it, including DU. Next time, either give him that link (put it on your desktop yourself, where I have it) or just give him three or four of those links, whichever ones you think he'd best respond to.

(I used to be dofus, but changed my screen name. We've met at the demonstrations at the fountain)

[Code_Name_D]

8. Glad to see you are still floating around.

:hi:

Say hi to every one for me today at the fountan today, as I will not be able to make it.

[BeachBuckeye]

9. One of the best posts I have ever read here on DU

You made many very profound statements here but in my opinion the best one is this: "But it's not the lie we need to be concerned with, but the absence of the truth."

If we are to win this next election we must hammer this point home. Our mission must be educate, educate, educate. Yes, we'll have to argue now and then but the education is the most important thing we can accomplish. Thats why our presence in the media is going to be so very important in 2004.

[Code_Name_D]

11. I agree, and then some.

Much of the left is stuck with just preaching to the quire, and we have yet to come up with an effective means of taking the message to the street. While it is too soon to expect the Dem candidates to begin a "to the street" campaign (they must first win the nomination). A "to the street" campaign will be essential in being competitive with Bush who will have the full breath of TV and radio to pound in the propaganda, and to be a bottle neck

I have come up with four strategies for this.
1) Raise questions and issues, not allegations. Calling Bush a thief will not work, but if we can ask the question of why Chenne is walking away with millions in compensation from Halibertion, than we force even the freepers to confront this.

2) Expand the campaign body. With a traditional presidential election, the only people who run are the President and Vice President nominee. The two will quickly part ways to campaign in two places at once, as two bodies can cover twice as much ground as one. Why not expand this? Instead of just declaring the vice president, why not also declare in advance the full cabinet. Then send those persons out on the campaign trail? And these persons can focus on just the issues related to there post, bringing to ground a new level of competence that just isn't humanly possible for one or two candidates.

3) A front porch strategy. It just is not humanly feasible for the Dem nominee to campaign in all 50 states, so they have to pick there battle grounds vary carefully. But thanks to redistricting, these battle grounds have multiplied for the Dems. It may not be humanly feasible for the Dem nominee to adequately cover them all. And the dems can not afford to write of any state. Especially if we believe Florida is going to be rigged in 2004. But instead of trying to cover them in person, such a candidate needs to use technology to reach every one at the same time. We use to be able to do this with TV. But now we have the internet. The Dem nominee will have to make use of the internet to regularly address the meet ups. And this must include more than just preaching to the quire material. The meet ups are going to have to find ways of getting the undecided in front of the speakers.

4) The "to the street" campaign. November 6th, 2004, in a small humble park some where in the poorest part of the city, taking place all across America. A marching band strikes up, followed by members of the meet up faithful begin to march down the streets controlled by the impoverished. With music and dancing, filling the air, people will look out there bar covered windows. And many will venture foreword, braving even the cold and snow, to join in the parade.

The wave of a hand is all that is needed for volunteers to scoop the elderly and the handicapped on to waiting war busses. Eventually, the precession will wind around the streets, and back to the park, where organizers have been busy connecting loud speakers to an internet connection, either wireless, or by an extension cord coming from a near by home.

And then as the top of the hour approaches, the crowd grows quiet. And then, with a cheer coming from the assembly, the voice of the Democratic nominee is heard over the speakers.

Will my vision come true? Actually, it has to come true if we are to have a chance. Who ever the dem nominee is, they can no longer count on the media to get the message out. The dems need there own press, they need there own server. They must look to both the technology of the future, as well as the means of the past. We must concede ourselves to an underground campaign, for we have already seen the quality of the liberal biased media. But an underground campaign can not be relegated to the shadows as it has in the past. And if we start now, it doesn’t have too.



PS: Thank you for the complement. I consider this high prase indeed.

[JohnyCanuck]

10. He has not heard of a single peep about these things from Fox News.

In an earlier article, I reviewed the varied aspects of personality profiling and simulation. While serving as Head of the Artificial Intelligence Department at the U.S. Army War College, 1993-1995, I conducted studies on profiling, psychological programming, and brainwashing. I explored and developed personality simulation systems, an advanced technology used in military war games, FBI profiling, political campaigning, and advertising. Part of my discovery was that:


* unenlightened human minds are combinations of infantile beliefs and emotional patterns

* these patterns can be simulated in profiling systems

* these profiling systems can be used to program and control people

Personality simulation systems are being used to create political campaigns that apply voter profiles to control their voting behavior. TV commercials and programs use personality simulation to profile viewers to control their purchasing and viewing behaviors. And sophisticated propaganda and brainwashing techniques are being used by the Bush junta to keep American citizens under control.

Above quote from "Brainwashing America," by Dr. Norman Livergood former head of the Dept. of Artificial Intelligence at the US Army War College.

Brainwashing America

[Code_Name_D]

12. Shamless Kick

:kick:

[Code_Name_D]

13. Another shamless kick

:hi: