Why Can't We Admit That It Was Morally Wrong To Invade Iraq?

[Solomon]

What the heck is wrong with americans? Is there anyone left in america who really believes we had a legitimate reason to kill those people? I mean the only crap left is this stuff about "Saddam was a bad man". Why do we keep saying that if that is not a reason to murder people?

Are we really that callous? If people bought the lie that Iraq was an imminent threat, then why are we not outraged, embarrassed and humiliated by the fact that we were wrong? Do we have any consciences at all? Do we assume there is no justice in the world? (We better hope that there is no justice in the world, because if there is, then what logically should happen to us for committing such a crime?)

America is such a moral cess pool that no candidate can say we were wrong without jeopardizing his/her chances of getting elected. Have we not enforced the UN resolution in that we have shown that there are no wmds?

What is it about america that we think we have a right to impose democracy on Iraqis? We don't give two bits about losing democracy here at home, but we can insist on forcing democracy down the throats of others?

Where is the debate about our character? We can't even admit to ourselves that we are wrong when we are wrong.

[Serenades]

1. honestly,

I don't think it is that far fetched to say that most Americans do not care and will not care until lots of our people are coming back in bodybags. They just do not care.

[democratreformed]

2. Some of us can

and did. The rest are very frustrating. I have always called them chauvanistic. They are just thrilled by the "tough guy" attitude. That's the only thing I can figure out. I work with men. I have dealth alot with the male ego and chauvanistic attitude. Yuk! I actually said that. And, I'm sorry to those men who do not adapt that attitude. But, I really believe that's the only thing that makes sense about why some twisted people still support this based on "Saddam was a bad man."

Okay, I'm gonna go way out on a limb. I can just hear this: "Yeah, we're over there kicking some a*=! We're gonna show those people who's boss." That the redneck "guys with the C-flag on their pickups" speaking there. (Sorry, but it's true.)

[NNN0LHI]

7. That is strange? I am more appalled at the number of bloodthirsty women

Honestly. That is what has surprised me the most. Not to flame. This is just my honest observation as a man.

Don

[democratreformed]

10. No flame b/c I agree

I can't for the life of me figure out why they buy into the crap as much as, if not more, than some of the men. I even had a woman yell at me, "Bush is the real man!!" I just kept walking. My view of a "man" sure doesn't agree with hers. Tough, overbearing, chavinistic pigs? I may have to work with them - but that's as far as it goes.

[pocoloco]

19. Where is our modern day Dildo???

[Kitsune]

3. Because the TV tells them that We Did The Right Thing.

All hail the glowing hypnotic cyclops.

[liberalmuse]

4. Your post is sad, but oh so true.

:( To put it bluntly once again, for the millionth time: MOST Americans do not give a fuck. Trying to get any sense of right or wrong about this war from most of the people I've come in contact with is like trying to get a reaction out of a rock. There's this blank, distracted look in people's eyes when you mention the injustice of murdering thousands of innocent people, like, 'Should I be caring about this? Hey, did you see last night's 'Survivor'?' I think about karma too, and if this concept truly does exist, then I agree that Americans are due for some real gut-wrenching agony.

[Nay]

25. *groan* Liberalmuse, you are so right.

I get the SAME blank reaction when I try to wake people up. They think I am just some overwrought crackpot, frothing at the mouth about stuff that doesn't matter at all. I am getting a real WRATH OF AN OLD TESTAMENT GOD feeling welling up in me just about every day. "Gut-wrenching agony" needs to be spread around by the ton, and it can't be spread soon enough.

[Jack Rabbit]

5. Let me think of a few reasons

1. Fear. The Bushies are going to get you if you speak out. As the celebrated intellectual, Ann Coulter, says: All liberals are traitors.

2. Pollution of the air waves. As Americans were misinformed and disinformed about the reasons for going to war last year, so they are are being misinformed and disinformed about the reasons to stay in Iraq. The media frames the debate with the black-and-white fallacy that if one opposes US occupation of Iraq, one supports the return of Saddam to power. Or they present all the feel-good stories about soldiers giving Iraqi children Hershey bars and omit those about Iraqi opposition to the occupation. Or they present the IGC as a legitimate governing body when it is in fact a bunch of quislings handpicked by a colonial viceroy. And never, never, do they talk about anything as arcane as how transnational corporations that foot the bill for Bush's political career are profiting from the war at the expense of the future of the Iraqi people.

[liberalmuse]

8. The Oil.

I woke up very angry this morning. There are married couples now serving in Iraq, and they have children here at home. WHY??? Why are both parents being sent to fight in a war for oil? Bush has a lot to atone for, that's for damn sure.

[Solomon]

11. But Jack. This issue has absolutely nothing to do with

liberal vs. conservative. Have we moved to a new proposition in the new millenium? That there is no such thing as morality?

[imax2268]

6. Most americans

are convinced that after 9/11 that we are in danger of being attacked again on a serious scale...if not worse than 9/11...thanks to BushCo...they have used this fear to scare the gullible Americans out there...they have used things that have happened 10 to 15 years ago to strike fear in those minds of gulliable and naive Americans...now we are seeing that the whole premis for going to war is all but forgotten...listen to BushCo talk...you don't hear anything about WMD anymore...he keeps bringing up "thugs and killers" in just about every speech...

They have used outdated intel and revamped it to say that Saddam was an evil man...I mean sure he was to his own people but I don't think that he was as serious a threat to us as what BushCo made him out to be...Saddam may have been an evil man but he wasn't stupid...

People are not angry...I think...because of the media and the ever changing excuses that are coming from BushCo...I think people are just tired of hearing about it and are just going with the flow...maybe I'm wrong...but that's how I see it...

[evil_orange_cat]

9. getting rid of Saddam a just and moral goal... but...

Bush's war was wrong...

If Saddam was an imminent threat, and if he had some part in 9-11, then the war would be justified... but he wasn't a threat, and not one shred of evidence has shown he had anything to do with 9-11.

Saddam was an evil dictator and the US should have pursued action to get rid of him, but not at the cost of this war... in lives and money...

[democratreformed]

12. So, if I decide to

start getting rid of drug pushers and go start shooting them - That is a just and moral goal? Just doesn't make sense. That is just not how things are done. Could I get away with it? I don't think so. And Bush should not get away with it in this war either.

[polmaven]

23. there were other options

to get rid of Saddam other than killing him or tens of thousands of Iraqi people. The World Court for one. Milosevic is gone, done without the death and destruction wreaked on Iraq. But then, the World Court was not an option for us was it? Our wise and great leader decided it was not a good idea for us to be a part of that....hmmmm!

[leesa]

13. Saddam was certainly no threat to us and the only thing the Iraqis

had asked for was for the US to quit voting against the rest of the world and to end sanctions so they could become strong enough to remove Saddam themselves. They didn't ask us to remove Saddam. No justification for what we are doing either in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[robbob]

14. Admit Iraq was morally wrong?

Most Americans, certainly those in the media, can't admit that Vietnam was morally wrong, and that was going on over thirty years ago. We butchered millions over there for dubious reasons.

America is NEVER morally wrong according to these media elites. No matter what the level of carnage, our intentions are always benign or well intentioned, our goal mearly the spreading of peace and democracy to a world eagerly awaiting our benovolent interventions.

Have you ever heard ANY major American public figure apologize to the Vietnamese for the horror we inflicted on them? It is highly unlikely that you ever will. Americans aren't good at saying "sorry".

[Redleg]

15. Because it reflects poorly on us Americans.

I know it was morally wrong, you know it was morally wrong, but many Americans don't want to admit it now because they supported the war in the beginning when they were led to believe in Iraq's WMDs and links to Al Quaida. Okay- that was one long sentence but I don't want to go back and edit it!

[KG]

16. didn't you get the memo?

MEMO TO AMERICANS:

The rules-

1. america is NEVER wrong!

2. when america is wrong, see rule 1.

3. american lives are worth more than the lives of the other humans on the planet.


:puke:

BTW - these rules are supported by many on DU. :eyes:

[jsw_81]

17. Why?

Because 'Murka is never wrong. We weren't wrong in Vietnam, or when we supported murderous right-wing dictators, or in Iraq.

[TruthIsAll]

18. jsw_81 ? Is that really you? Saying we support RW dictators? WTF!

Now, if you can just connect the dots, you will see why JFK was murdered. And who had the motive. The means. The opportunity.

[mike_c]

20. solomon, thank you for posting this....

I think that you're right: ultimately, Americans wear moral blinders to justify the greed and self-rightousness that our society is based upon. Over the last several years I've learned enough about my country's actions abroad (and at home, too) to make me ashamed for several lifetimes. Most Americans will never look. Most will close their eyes when the truth is shown to them. So yes, I think you're correct, America IS a "moral cesspool." At its very core, it is based upon selfishness and greed.

[Terwilliger]

21. what, are you kidding?

This is America. We do everything right. No one can question us because our motives are pure.

[Solomon]

24. Hey T!

:hi:

[mikehiggins]

22. It was morally, politically and strategically wrong

What happens now?

[Scott Lee]

26. Supremicism, Military hegemonism, Racism

The big three of why so many in the USA still think the Iraq war is a good thing to do. Three dirty little national secrets of our psyche: We believe we are (genetically?) supreme to all other peoples on the planet, we believe that our government has some divine right to make war on other nations while we would be shocked and angered that these other nations might try the same, and many of us believe that a bunch of Brown people half way around the world really aren't human and their mass murder shouldn't elicit such outrage.

Is this what our experiment in "democracy" has brought us to?

[Carolina]

27. white supremacy, American style

There is so much that is good about this country and I am surely glad that I am here, but for 200+ years America has lived a lie about freedom, equality and justice for all.

My slave born great, great grandfather said on his deathbed in 1900 that this nation had 100 years to come to terms with the lofty ideals of its founding documents (Declaration of Independence, Constitution) versus the reality of its existence. We are a nation that was founded on the slaughter of indigenous people, the theft of their habitats and land, and their enslavement/entrapment on reservations where good "Christians" tried to destroy their culture(s) by taking away their children and indoctrinating them in Christian schools.

We are a nation that FOR MONEY and a particular (peculiar) way of life imported slave labor from Africa subjecting fellow humans who were different to inhumane conditions, breeding them like animals and whimsically disrupting family bonds for the best sale.

We are a nation that interferes in other nations affairs for our advantage, propping up dictators who slaughter their subjects, overthrowing democratic regimes that dare challenge our hegemony.

Sadly money has been at the root of it all. Explorations of the New World were for the purpose of seeking the riches of the Indies. That later got morphed into the pursuit of religious freedom. But at bottom, many settlers came to get away from the squalor of the Europe they occupied, to carve a new and better life for themselves; and that would have been okay had they not destroyed those who were already here. Money or other natural resources drove the slave trade, played a part in the cold war and remains the driving force still.

George W Bush is the legacy of that type of American, the moneyed elite arrogant White male (and those who wish they were or identify with such) who will say anything, do anything for more money and/or maintenance of position and status. They believe in their entitlement; they believe that might equals right. My cousin so often says that W is the white man's last stand and, like Nero in Rome, he will destroy this country.

I so hope it's not true, but in these times, the refrain "ave et vale" goes through my mind when I think of the great experiment in democracy known as America.

[Cocoa]

28. their moral energy is directed towards judging Michael Jackson

and all the other designated bad guys on the court channel.

[hansberrym]

29. What are you

Some kind of "Isolationist"? (just kidding)


Actually there have been voices saying out loud that we should not be meddling in other nations affairs. But these voices are consistently
shouted down with the isolationist label. Consider Pat Buchanon a few years ago saying we should stay out of the Middle East problems.

He was branded an isolationist, anti-semite, racist, and just about every other slur that could be heaped on him for even sugesting that we ought to follow the advice of G.Washington (that the the US ought to have trade and discourse with other nations but avoid foreign entanglements).

It seems that both major parties are controlled by people who favor a strong international peace keeping role for the US, and anyone who dare suggest that the US ought not to assert itself militarily is unamerican.

We can only change this by voting for people who do not go along
with the Globalist program, and by refusing to believe the media's spin.

Remember the Maine?

[MrPrax]

30. Exceptionalism!

Americans have spent the last 20 decades defining their moral outlook in negative terms:
NOT Old Europe
NOT Soviet Union

Along the way they have been forcefed 'self-images' where, after awhile you start to think Americans are not even 'human' anymore, but some 'tribe' of ascended masters and as such 'human' rules no longer apply or are, at best, problematic when applied to the American Experience.

As such there will be always an American frustration with a world that doesn't reflect it's own self-prescribed national goals; I am tempted to stay totalitarianism, but it might be more advanced than even that...

[RainDog]

31. No nation is "moral"

The reason the invasion of Iraq was wrong, both before it occurred and now is that it was a stupid, stupid thing to do which made this country less safe from real terrorists.

morally, you argue both sides ot the invasion...which people are doing now...as in Saddam was a dictator.

however, that arguement does not hold any weight in terms of America's decisions about who to invade and who to befriend because we are still befriending dictators who boil their domestic enemies to death in Uzbekistan, for instance, because of the strategic location of that country.

Morally, what is a country's duty? To defend its people from the threat of aggression? To ensure the economic stability and thus domestic stability of its government?

Is killing every justified, even when innocents die? The answer to that seems to be an unfortunate yes. Were all Germans or Japanese or Italilans who were killed in league with Hitler or Hirohito or Mussolini?

No. But I'm sure some who did not align with their govts, but who had no other place to go where killed. But does that then mean that it was wrong to go to war against them?

To me, that war was a right decision.

However, since that time, our foreign policy seems to have been guided by ultra-right wing factions who were sometimes right about the threat of "communism" but more often over reacted, and most of all, used the excuse of the threat of communism to justify aggression which had nothing to do with our national security and everything to do with the corporate interest in other nations.

France and Germany and Russia also have their own reasons for not supporting the U.S., beyond the stupidity of this invasion, because it is not in their interests for the U.S. to control the Iraqi oil.

I do not think it is in the best interests of this nation to go to war to control the Iraqi oil, or to attempt, as this obviously was, to install a puppet regime and call it democracy.

This betrays our founding principles, imo.

The cost of this war, too, makes it a stupid decision.

And worst of all, the pre-war planning, or lack of, showed an utter rejection of any semblance of reality on the part of those in power. That's truly scary to see in the most powerful nation in the world...a foreign policy based upon delusion.

I do not believe it is in our best interests, either, to be an "empire" because democracy will suffer here. I do not believe it is in our best interests to be the only superpower, because, although Americans do not want to believe this, we do not act in the best interests of other nations if it doesn't happen to coincide with the interests of the richest of the rich in this country.

So...are these "moral" issues, or issues of governance? Of what makes good governance?

I do not like it when people bring religious terms, from either side of the aisle, into governing decisions because one person's idea of moral (i.e. a religous war) is another person's version of genocide.

National law, treaties, international law...these are the things which should provide the guiding principles for our actions.