Did Bush people lie about British Airways pilot that spotted Air Force One

[kentuck]

It appears the story may have just been made up. A bunch of bull...
===================================================================

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=411690§ion=news

<snip>
CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - One of the most suspenseful moments during President George W. Bush's secret flight to Baghdad, according to the White House, came when a British Airways pilot spotted Air Force One soaring over the Atlantic.

The mid-air encounter, which aides say nearly prompted the president to call off the trip, became an instant news sensation, memorialised by tourist pins which went on sale at a store in Crawford within hours of Bush's return to his Texas ranch.

But two days after the sighting, the identity of the pilot remains a mystery, even to British Airways.

An airline spokeswoman said on Saturday that no crew member had come forward to report the unusual encounter, as is standard practice.

...more

[DS1]

1. It's bull, and I can prove it

A Pool Reporter, on one of the puff piece "meet the sheep" programs, said that Bush was asleep 20 MINUTES after take off! Thus it was not possible for him to be awake at any time during the atlantic, and the decision to abort could have never been an issue.

[Tinoire]

5. Strange... I saved those stories

That little detail just doesn't sit right...


----
As part of the security operation, the President's plane, Air Force One, listed a false call sign for its unannounced landing. As it passed within sight of a British Airways pilot, he radioed: "Did I just see Air Force One?"

"Gulfstream 5," replied the President's pilot, Colonel Mark Tillman. As one of Mr Bush's aides recounted, the BA pilot seemed to sense he was in on a secret and replied archly, "Oh."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/28/1069825987186.html

[Missy Vixen]

45. Yeah, right

>"Gulfstream 5," replied the President's pilot, Colonel Mark Tillman. As one of Mr Bush's aides recounted, the BA pilot seemed to sense he was in on a secret and replied archly, "Oh."<

It's hard for me to believe, in a post September 11th world, that ANY pilot failing to identify him/herself and the correct make and model of airliner when hailed by another pilot, would not be immediately escorted via fighter jet to the nearest airport. I'm sure those BA pilots just let 'em fly on by, and never even thought that there was something wrong aboard Air Force One.

More propaganda, pure and simple.

Julie

[Unknown Known]

2. This is another Rove Production just like Jessica Lynch

I just mentioned that BA pilot to a friend and said that supposedly this pilot was the ONLY witness to AF1 being in the air. Yeah, right!

The whole story reeks of lies - the 5 a.m. Thanksgiving dinner is another big part, as well as all the "soldiers" surrounding him are SS.

There's so many discrepencies, that I'm beginning to wonder where the hell they took these pictures. Was it really in Iraq or maybe it was on another base, like in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait?

[DS1]

3. drop the 5 am bit, it's not true, it was 5 pm

a single reporter screwed up one crucial letter in a report, and this place has jumped over it like xians on the new testament

[Unknown Known]

8. Actually, there were two stories

One in Counterpunch, the other came from WaPo - 5 a.m. is what they both said. I wrote it off at first, also, but then the second story came through as 5 a.m. which made me change my mind.

Perhaps Mr. Madsen just took the word of Mike Allen, intrepid embedded reporter. His breathless account, at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17481-2003Nov27.html
specifically says this about touchdown:

" A little after 5 a.m. Baghdad time, about 10 hours after takeoff from Andrews, the cabin lights were turned off and all the shades were down. Twenty minutes later, we touched down in Baghdad."

More here, including photos, of early morning light streaming through windows. If he only stayed 2 1/2, he would have had to leave in daylight. FoxNews stated that they left after midnight Fri.

Too many discrepencies in the stories to be believed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=794705

[DS1]

20. those were area lights, not the morning

and perhaps it was the AP report that every cut and pastes these days that screwed it up, but the math is correct, it would have been an evening dinner. coupled with flying back to Texas (13 or so hours) and adding 8 hours back, it would match up with the Friday night arrival of Bush back in Crawdad.

[DoYouEverWonder]

66. Can you prove it was 5:00 PM?

Got links? Thanks.

[frylock]

4. memorialised by tourist pins?!?

:wtf:

[DS1]

6. A Pledge Pin! On your Uniform?!?

/spit

[VolcanoJen]

7. Oh, man, kentuck! Great catch!!

You know, this BA pilot story stunk to high heaven when I first heard it. It was reminiscent of their 9/11 story, Bush confidently eluding an imminent attack on the White House by bravely zig-zagging across the country.

Anyone found a photo of the "memorial pins" yet? These I gotta see...

[Old and In the Way]

12. I heard it was a Turkey with an oil well branded in it's flank.

Insription reads: Operation Fly By Night - One Turkey at a Time

[kentuck]

13. And they sold out almost immediately.....

'Ethel, let's buy a pin to memorialize the lies of the Bush Administration'....

[Cocoa]

21. it stunk to me too

just adding insider details to the exciting story, the whole thing made for Fox TV. Pure phony folklore, as is the part about how Bush at first didn't want to go.

[Timefortruth]

9. McCain campaigned for Jeb.

He has sold his soul countless times since AWOL took office. He might have his moments, but he is no more interested in saving the country than AWOL himself.

[Toucano]

10. "Let's play make-believe"

Should be the new RNC slogan!

[diamond14]

11. faux news had all their camera's confiscated...where did they get

those photos???....and why was faux allowed to put a 'team' of journalists (4?) on AF1 in DC, when CNN and others were not allowed, and no doubt had staff here in DC able to join them....

there are too many problems here...the shrub lalalalalala is falling apart....when exactly did the photos begin to stream into American media? how did those get there? from those little disposable cameras held by troops in Iraq? and nappy boy fell asleep, rather than boldly leading to call the mission off at any minute (what a crock).....

------------------------------------------------
-snips-

After leaving Texas, the nearly empty plane streaked toward Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland to refuel and pick up Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr. Six more journalists -- two wire-service reporters and a team from Fox -- joined the group at the refueling stop. They met in the parking lot of a Holiday Inn Express, and officials confiscated all their electronics gear, from television cameras to pagers , so they would not be tempted to make any record of the super-secret hangar where they would join the president's party.

Air Force One took off for Baghdad 10 minutes later, and Bush was asleep within 20 minutes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17481-2003Nov27_2.html

[maggrwaggr]

29. good catch. Add it to the list of lies.

there's a LOT of lies with this story

[diamond14]

14. FAA stopped web page air pilot advisories, Wed. 02:56 AM....

FAA stopped air pilot web advisories on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 at 02:56 AM and started their web page advisories again at 11:48 AM. By using only phones, FAA prevented anyone from knowing about the pResident's travels across America.....and if the shrub left USA airspace at about 11 AM, 11/26/03, Wednesday, then he would arrive about 5 AM in Baghdad on 11/27/03 Thankgiving day.

02:56 AM Wednesday 11/26/03
THE TCA/USER WEB PAGE FOR USER REQUESTS IS NOW CLOSED.
PLEASE RESUME USING THE NORMAL PHONE LINES FOR CONCERNS.
http://www.fly.faa.gov/advisories/adv_otherdis_sys.html?number=8&day=11262003


11:48 AM Wednesday 11/26/03
THE TCA/USER WEB PAGE FOR USER REQUESTS IS NOW IN USE FOR THOSE
USERS WITH ACCESS TO IT.
.
USERS MAY SEND THEIR REQUEST MESSAGES AND THEY WILL BE RESPONDED
TO ACCORDINGLY. PLEASE PROVIDE ADEQUATE INFORMATION WITH YOUR
REQUESTS (CALL SIGN, CURRENT POSITION OF FLIGHT, DESTINATION,
CATEGORY OF ISSUE, ETC) TO ELIMINATE ANY MISINTERPRETATION.

http://www.fly.faa.gov/advisories/adv_otherdis_sys.html?number=12&day=11262003

[Unknown Known]

15. It was 5 a.m.! Those damn lying liars!

Thanks amen, great find. This cinches it for me. They had to get those troops out of bed to pose with the Fraud.:mad:

[grasswire]

18. that means...

...that members of the press lied? I really don't think so.

Other things come to mind to add to the pot here.

1. The freeper stationed at Baghdad airport who leaked the story on their site in real time posted the news of Bush's presence at about 7:30 a.m. pacific time (which is roughly 11 hours off Baghdad time.) This is a real-time leak. Not possible to fake.

2. The same freeper later claims (when other discuss AF1 landing without attracting notice) that Bush landed in a Gulfstream, not AF1.

3. Is Bush using Ambien, the sleeper drug that Colin Powell said "everybody here" is popping for sleep? The drug that puts you out very quickly and that can produce a hypnotic, suggestible state?

[Tinoire]

31. You know what bothers me about that Freeper link?

MAJOR MAJOR breach in Security. Even the freepers have been commenting on it. That guy would have let the cat out of the bag hours before it was permissible and even the Freepers have finally pieced that bit together.

Exhibit A: I have to wonder if some of the Chief's detractors on this thread tried to report him to the Pentagon/CENTCOM, in the interest of "national security". I've seen a few threats.


Exhibit B: At the time the original post was made, the Chief's profile page had text and pictures on it about his current assignment in Iraq (it is curiously blank now).

Plus, all you had to do was look at some of his previous posting history to see lots of references to his being stationed in Iraq.

Plus the keywords in the article mentioned Iraq (but anyone can add keywords, so I don't know that Chief actually put them there).

<snip>

It concerns me that he has not made any reply to any thread for a day and a half now.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1029949/posts?q=1&&page=1801

then hmmmmm

<snip>

Also, there is the other possibility that ChiefKujo was officially a part of the press pool or part of the WH staff. That would suggest either a press correspondent who leaked prior to when the WH / Pentagon gave clearance or a WH staffer with orders to publish first on Free Republic.

At any rate, the FR staff did the correct thing (pull the thread until the POTUS was in the air).
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1029949/posts?q=1&&page=1851

((Or part of the disinformation campaign?? I swear this lying sneaky shock and awe administration make your head spin))

Then we get this:

For the record, the admin was correct in pulling the thread as some competent Freeper was able to piece-together a general location from previous posts. However, the specific location could not have been determined, even with the clues I left.

Additionally, the secrecy was so great that people guarding the mess hall didn't even know who was inside--even after he left and took off.

I had no prior knowledge of his visit other than the generic word given out that there would be a "special guest" attending the dinner. I was outside the building and heard a roar so loud, it shook the place. It was then that I put the clues together. When I got back to work and, after considering the implications, the timing, security situation, and the level of detail to announce, went with the post.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1029949/posts?q=1&&page=1851

Future factoid from source poster:

The President landed in a Gulfstream at BIAP, not in the 747.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1029949/posts?q=1&&page=1901

[jmowreader]

39. No way Bush went to Baghdad in a Gulfstream!

The biggest plane Gulfstream makes is the G550. According to Gulfstream, they can configure the G550 to hold 19 people; their "typical outfitting" is 14 to 18. If you want to make Baghdad from DC in this airplane, you're looking at more like eight.

Besides, the prestige factor's not there in a Gulfstream. A Gulfstream is one of the nicest planes around, actually far nicer than most 747s (although AF1 isn't "most" 747s), but pull one up next to a 747 and it looks like a peon's airplane. It's hard to preen and strut out of a plane that sits waist high.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

25. I thought all the soldiers interviewed

seemed pretty groggy. I thought it was the tryptophan
from the turkey.

[VolcanoJen]

17. EXCELLENT research in posts 11 and 14, amen1234!!

Good stuff... and lots of questions to ask now.

[Tinoire]

32. Ditto! Excellent Research! Question for Amen

Though I must admit the math is making my head spin. Never was much for math- urgh...

I'm going to assume those times are in Zulu?

[diamond14]

34. FAA-NOTAMs issued in local time.....DCC = EST

shrub can portray his little escapade as 'sneaking' out of America, but if you look at this web site, it should be real apparent that NOBODY flies around in America without many people knowing about it...of course, with the entire FAA web page turned off...who could tell that shrub was in the air...and he is so arrogant as to be proud of such major disruption, and possible danger to regular flying Americans...the arrogance....
http://www.fly.faa.gov/Products/Information/information.html


and there are always major traffic delays due to the pResident aircraft as shown here...these are NOT options....
http://www2.faa.gov/atpubs/NTM/not0505.html#5-5-3

d. Traffic delays due to Presidential and other parties' aircraft operations:

1. Traffic delays required by the arrival and the departure of Presidential aircraft.

2. Transmit the NOTAM at least 8 hours in advance. The time period the NOTAM will be in effect will normally be 15 minutes before to 15 minutes after the arrival and the departure times. Avoid any reference to Presidential activities.

EXAMPLE-
!LIT LIT ATC DLA WEF 0004131800-0004131830

!LIT LIT ATC DLA WEF 0004132100-0004132130

NOTE-
Presidential aircraft includes the aircraft and the entourage of the President, the Vice President, or other public figures designated by the White House.

[Noordam]

16. which DUers Son was there and he could answer the 5AM/PM

One DUer said they were so proud of see their son in the room, hated * but still a free shot of their son.

That DUer's son could be able to solve the AM/PM question.

[IggleDoer]

19. If there was any sign that the secret was let out, ..

... they would/ve turned back. The BA pilot asking about AF1 over the airwaves certainly let the secret out.

Another Repubicn lie.

[Obamarama]

22. My question is this....

With all of the electronic and radar capabilities that must be available to Air Force One, are you telling me it would have KNOWINGLY flown THAT close to another plane - commerical or otherwise?

I cross the Atlantic a couple times year and frequently see other aircraft out the window. I can usually make out enough of the plane to know what type of plane it is (747, 777, etc...), but have never been able to discern what airline markings have been on the plane, and I have 20/20 vision. And that's in broad daylight.

How on earth AF1 would come within close enough range to another aircraft to make out its markings is beyond me. You'd think the pilots would know what's out there and would be flying through more open airspace where they wouldn't encounter other aircraft, at least at that close range.

Anyone else scratching their heads on this one??

[grasswire]

23. I say we take this story apart

We're already finding some chinks in it.

DU's researchers can surely take this down.

Who is the DU pilot? Is it Karlschneider? Perhaps he can lend some insight.

[karlschneider]

42. Roger dodger! I am but one of several DU pilots! I need to get a couple

others alerted, Demotex and sfecap, to get into this. I have been a corporate pilot for 35 years, but both those guys are into the heavy iron and would probably be more up to speed on transatlantic procedures which I rarely get into, but a few things do come to mind.

1. I do NOT find any fault with the timeline as reported. And I don't doubt Shrub actually did make a quick trip to Baghdad...to 'fake' that would be on a par with the alleged faked moon-landing back in 1969. I have met Neil Armstrong and give no quarter to the tinfoil idiots who claim to believe that was bogus.

2. I find it 99.9% unbelievable that any other aircraft would have been, either 'conveniently' or vectored to anywhere close enough to AF1 to identify it. Outside a TCA, it is extremely rare for any plane under radar surveillance to ever even see, let alone close enough to identify, another large airplane. So I do think this 'report' is bullshit, but I can't imagine why it was made or to whose benefit it might accrue.

3. I haven't heard at -what point- in the flight this allegedly occurred. (or, obviously exactly -where-.) Maybe I missed it. Anybody?

4. To whom, and on what frequency was this supposed exchange made, who monitored it and if it was actually heard, why would someone just happen to have been listening?

I need to read some more about this. It smells fishy, but I'm not quite sure why.

[sfecap]

43. If the sighting was over the Atlantic...

It very plausable. The separation out there is only 1000 feet vertically, so it's relatively easy to ID another aircraft in daylight.

(A few years ago, I passed AF1 over the N Atlantic. Very easy to spot.)

My question would be: who was the BA Captain talking to? There isn't any radar out there, tracking is done by position reporting. There is an air to air freq that is used for aircraft to aircraft chat, everybody usually monitors it. Who reported this conversation?

[karlschneider]

50. That's what I was wondering. The reports seemed to indicate it was on

an ARTCC freq...but if it was 122.8 or thereabouts, how could anybody even hear it on the ground a couple thousand miles away? I confess I have no clue....

[Tinoire]

24. Same question!

That plane would have to be awfully close to Air Force One to be able to see the markings. Plus Air Force one was supposedly flying dark.

And then one more thing, Isn't Gulfstream 5 about 1/2 the size of Air Force One? You'd think a commercial pilot could tell the difference.

Also escorts- I realize this was done on the sneak (like every other thing that crook does) but were there no escorting planes?

[Silverhair]

46. Some answers.

1. Daylight over the Atlantic.

2. Yes, the pilot can tell the difference. That's why he shut up when he was told it was a Gulfstream. He wasn't stupid. He knew the difference in the aircraft and understood the hint.

3. Not needed. It would have made security far more difficult. I think AF1 usually flies without figher escort, however I am not sure about that.

[Military Brat]

48. 747 and Gulfstream 5 not comparable in size, identification

You know, the other day, I saw a greyhound run by, and I turned to my friend and asked, "Did I just see a Saint Bernard?"

All sarcasm aside, what bothers me is the pilot supposedly saying "Gulfstream 5." The correct response would have been a simple, "Negative," if in fact the pilot needed to reply at all. Some sort of Air Control Center should have been monitoring the radio. And what's this crap about him responding "after a long silence"? This whole episode is BOGUS.

[maggrwaggr]

27. I'm not scratching my head. It was a lie, plain and simple

just one more. Add it to the list.

And the people and the press swallowed it as they always do.

It's now part of the "myth" of Bush's "courageous and daring" trip to the war zone.

[Noordam]

33. You are not getting a Pilot's view

I have seen planes outside windows on planes too but they went by fast. But a pilot has radar and a longer view of the plane. To see a 747 in AF1 "marking" would not be hard for a pilot. BUT I believe this is BS too.

[Turbineguy]

70. I'm not a pilot but

Planes fly lanes just like ships. These courses are based on fuel economy and weather . AF1 need not do so. Not only that, there are probably CPA requirements that would mean AF1 would change course if needs be. They can see a plane on radar and avoid visual long before it could be spotted. I think the BA story is more fantasy land stuff.

As for the time, Iraq is 9 hours ahead of EST. So somebody leaving at 11 pm EST would arrive 5PM Baghdad time.

[kentuck]

26. My question is why?

What did they have to gain from telling this story? Did it have something to do with the British? Is that why they said it was a "British Airways"? If so, why?????

[maggrwaggr]

Because they wanted to prove he actually flew overseas, wasn't in Nevada

that's why

[creativelcro]

28. perhaps it is supposed

to convey the message that Bush trusts our British allies. If he did not trust them about keeping his "secter" he might have aborted the mission... It may be directed at the British... -CV

[kentuck]

30. Makes the most sense so far...

They are working on the British PR simultaneously..

[Silverhair]

35. Why should they. Were's the gain?

We know that Bush really did visit Iraq and really did "serve" Tday diner to some soldiers and addressed a group of about 600 of them. Yes, it was a photo-op. So what's the big deal about the British pilot spotting them? The AF1 pilot, by the tone of his voice, (Stressing the "is" of This is a Gulfstream.)acould communicate the idea to the other pilot that he wasn't seeing what he was seeing. Pilots of commercial airliners aren't stupid after all.

What make me believe it is simply that it doesn't matter. What would the Bushes gain by imventing that story? If there is nothing to gain, why invent the story?

[DUreader]

36. They invent shit all the time to create narratives to cover PR stunts

Read thru this thread , there is some weird shit about the details

of this trip.

[Silverhair]

37. So, He still made the trip. So what's the big deal about

the Brit pilot. A lie has to have a reason, and I just don't see a reason. As for the idea that he didn't actually make the trip, that is just CTist bull. He was seen by too many people.

[comsymp]

38. That's where you're mistaken

"A lie has to have a reason..."

In a rational world, with a rational subject, I'd agree with your premise but not with this crew- see:

*Trifecta

*"That's one lousy pilot"

... and numerous other examples of completely unnecessary BS embellishments which have been proven false.

Somebody upthread suggested that the purpose, if any, of this "detail" could be to share the glory of *'s selfless heroism with our good friends in the UK... sounds pretty plausible to me. Or maybe it was just for the suspense value:

"Will Our Hero accomplish his Secret Mission without being discovered???" Ver-ry Serial Cliffhanger, don'tcha think?

ON EDIT: "Somebody Upthread" = Creativelcro

[PaDUer]

40. He wasn't on AF1...

he landed in a Gulfstream at BIAP, not in the 747

Please read the thread in Gen Disc about the freepers having the info direct from a freeper in Iraq..

[kentuck]

41. Where was the last stop before landing in Baghdad?

Isn't it possible that Bush got off AF1 without the media knowing it, and flew into Baghdad on a Gulfstream, while the media followed as decoys in the AF1? I do not recall reading if it was a non-stop flight??

[Tinoire]

44. I read somewhere that they stopped in the UK

might have been freeper speculation though- I can't recall.

[grasswire]

53. that was my hunch

Because according to press accounts, Bush was not seen boarding AF1, as usually happens. The door to the press cabin was closed, and that was unusual.

So it is possible that everything else went by AF1, and Bush went in a Gulfstream. Which means that Bush used AF1 as a decoy.

Oh, another thing. By the time the press was allowed off AF1, Bush was already in a van heading to the mess hall.

So maybe the thing about the pulled windowshades had more to do with keeping the reporters from seeing that Bush was on another plane?

[Rex]

72. My question would be - just who was on the 747

Tinfoil hat time! :tinfoilhat:

besides the press? This is an excellent deflection move by the BFEE; you have Bush on a Gulfstream (which now has a mythos created by a fictional BA pilot, so it must be true!) and the press on the 747 AND someone else that you wanted to get into Iraq without drawing any attention. The press is to busy trying to get to the mess hall to get snapshots of Bush. Could Cheney have been on the 747? The 2 hours sounds like enough time to get something done without anyone knowing about it.

[Noordam]

51. HE landed in AF1, now AF1 is not always a 747

it could be a Gulfstream. IF the plane is an Air Force plane, it is AF1. If it is a Marine copter for example it is Marine 1.

[DoYouEverWonder]

68. Air Force One is any plane

that the pResident is flying in.

I guess technically when he landed on the aircraft carrier, he was in Navy 1?

[Military Brat]

49. Silverhair, why invent the story, indeed?

Ask Jessica Lynch. Why tell the truth when you can gild the lily?

[DUreader]

67. Reuters: WH Version of Mid-Air Exchange Disputed (the story's cracking!)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=247700


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031201/us_nm/bush_iraq_pilot_dc&cid=1896&ncid=1480

White House Version of Mid-Air Exchange Disputed
56 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - British Airways said on Monday that none of its pilots made contact with President Bush
(news - web sites)'s plane during its secret flight to Baghdad, contradicting White House reports of a mid-air
exchange that nearly prompted Bush to call off his trip.

Honor Verrier, a spokeswoman for British Airways in North America, said two BA aircraft were in the area at the
time and neither radioed the president's plane to ask if it was Air Force One.

"We have spoken to the British Airways captains who were in the area at the time and neither made comments to
Air Force One nor did they hear any other aircraft make the statement over the radio," Verrier said in response to
a question from Reuters.

The White House had no immediate comment on the discrepancy.

Bush aides recounted with excitement last week the moment during the flight to Baghdad when they said a BA
pilot thought he spotted the president's blue and white Boeing 747 from his cockpit.

[salin]

71. Except we now know... according to British Airways... They Did.

Makes no sense WHY -but they did. Sort of makes they way Rush and the talking heads blew up the Gore embellishes theme.. look silly - and lets the media look transparent if they don't line these little pointless fabrications up in a row in the next election and do the same thing... the "the sailors decided to put up the Mission Accomplished Sign" (another pointless lie)... oh wait then there was that OTHER plane story... that Airforce One was a target on 911... oops disproven on that front as well...

[Fescue4u]

47. There is a pretty large exclusion zone around AF1

at all times.

If you are private pilot and wander into, even accidently you can count on a suspension or revocation of your pilot certificate.

And that was BEFORE 9/11, so I can imagine that the exclusion zone is even larger, and the penalities more severe.

I havent piloted in about 10 years, but if I recall its was a large zone, so large that you could barely see, let alone identify the craft.

So the odds that BA pilot saw AF1 from the air, identified it and isnt in deep shit seems very unlikely.

[gmaki]

52. Well, this thread got me to do a lot of research

into the timeline of the trip. Actually, all the reports of what happened prior to the trip in the US work out just right for the reported 5:31 PM arrival (Baghdad time).

Just for grins I estimated (but could be very wrong) that AF1 was in daylight from about 4 hours into the journey until their arrival. So if they were to be sighted by a BA plane it would have to be after 4 hours in.

Now the only thing that does not sit right in the whole thing to me is all the mention of pulling shades and lights out during the approach. All this indicates they arrived in darkness so as not to be seen by the naked eye. However the timeline says touchdown at 5:31 pm and sun sets in Baghdad at 5:14 PM. how could it be dark 17 minutes after sunset?

Maybe I am missing something or maybe I am wrong about baghdad sunset time, but it seems that anyone would have been able to view AF1 coming in with their naked eye at 5:31.

TIMELINE

Sunrise/Sunset

[Zero Gravitas]

54. I'm Shocked, SHOCKED

to think that they might lie to pump that worthless little weasel of a court-appointed "President" up into something that he isn't (a leader, a brave person, a worthwhile human being). In fact given the level and amount of lies that spew forth from the White house these days, I don't automaticaly believe that the Poser-in-Chief was ever within 1,000 miles of Iraq.

[LittleApple81]

55. Every time I see "shocked" I have to go to Comedy Central.

I love Jon when he says that.

[grasswire]

56. here's some more info

....from Washington Post's Mike Allen's notes taken on the trip.


At Andrews AFB
7:51 p.m. Eastern (6:51 p.m. Texan) ? In a very unusual move, a flight attendant closed the front door of the press cabin and the door to the Secret Service cabin, so we could not see the arrival of the President or the agents. We didn't know if he was coming by Suburban or Black Hawk or white top or what. 8:22 p.m. (7:22 p.m. Texan) ? Still blacked out from the rest of the plane, we heard Air Force One's engines rev. We heard gear being piled against the door of the Secret Service cabin.

On the ground in Baghdad
He was already in a white Land Rover or Land Cruiser by the time the pool reached the Tarmac.


THIS MEANS THAT NO ONE in the press knows if Bush was actually on the 747. NO ONE KNOWS if Bush rode a Gulfstream into Baghdad.

[kentuck]

57. That's probably why they told the press he was "asleep"...

He was never on AF1 - only the press. He went in a different jet? Perhaps a Gulfstream?

[grasswire]

58. I wrote a note to Mike Allen...

...to ask him about that possibility. I asked him how it felt to be a decoy.

[grasswire]

60. now we have to ask....

.....how many other times has Bush escaped from the press by being in another plane or another car? And where did he go?

[kentuck]

63. How does it feel ...to be on your own...

like a rolling stone? To know that if anyone is going to be shot out of the air, it is going to be you? That says a lot about Bush...and it's not all heroic.

[Quahog]

59. Here's what bothers me

OK, so he flew to Baghdad, served turkey, had his photo op and went home. Big hero, I'm so impressed. Yeah, he probably did this.

But the thing about the BA pilot story that screams BULLSHIT to me is that supposedly * flew into Baghdad in a Gulfstream. This is a dinky jet. If an experienced commercial airline pilot saw this thing in mid-air, his first thought would NOT be, "Oh, look, it's Air Force 1." No way. If he was close enough, and the Gulfstream had "AIR FORCE ONE" painted on it in huge-ass letters, he MIGHT have identified it.

Also (and someone else has mentioned this in this thread), why in HELL would the pilot of AF1 respond to such an assinine transmission from a commercial pilot? What, was he worried the guy might swoop in for a closer look at the big important plane?

The whole story sounds concocted, just to give good average Americans something to talk about around the water cooler, just to make sure that everyone was talking all-Bush all the time on Monday morning.

[grasswire]

61. well..........

...we know that the 747 actually did go there. The plane that most people connect with the presidential travel. And so perhaps that incident did happen but not in the way it is reported. Maybe the transmission went something like this:

BA pilot: "Is that AF1 traveling with a shadow plane?"

AF1 "Yeah, a Gulfstream"

[Paulie]

62. Two Things

1) If they know it was a BA pilot, what was his flight number? Seems easy enough to supply, run the tape back.

2) And AirForceOne is only called AirForceOne if the President is on it. Otherwise, it's just called by it's tail number (28000 or 29000 depending on which plane they are using).

[peacetalksforall]

64. If important, someone could ask Rove to release the full

transcript of the BA-AF communication...they would have had to establish communication first before this casual excchange could have taken place. But the whole thing is trite. Whether on a little or a mega size plane, whether in Baghdad or Fort Knox, whether 5AM or 5PM, whether a hot turkey or a plastic one, they are just going to continue to concoct glory because enough of the politically hard-of-seeing and hard-of-hearing are easy marks and will kneel at the foot of his robes. All bow down - Karl told us to do it.

Apologies to right leaning soldiers who revere him. They'll have a chance to reenter the reality outside the castle one of these days.

All thanks to the not so supreme court who anointed and crowned him.

[grasswire]

65. Reuters....

...is now reporting that BA denies the conversation. Neither of the two BA pilots who could see the plane say they spoke to Bush's crew. See thread in LBN.

[tom_paine]

69. Sure they did.

Why tell the truth when a lie will do?

That's the driving force of Bushevik Propaganda.