Don't think in terms of "moral " and"immoral"

[funkyflathead]

Please think in terms of legal and illegal.

Only fundamentalists believe in right and wrong.

Anything goes- unless it is illegal.

[Serenades]

1. hmmmm

How do you determine what is legal if you can't determine what is moral or immoral? Why should slapping someone in the face be illegal if it is not immoral?

[funkyflathead]

3. There is no moral or immoral

Just legal and illegal.

You can make anything legal or illegal.

You can ban the ownership of chia pets if you want to.

You can legalize the shooting of wild horses.

Anything goes- unless it is illegal.

Don't tell me what I'm doing is right or wrong!

[KensPen]

4. I disagree

not all laws are based upon morality,

or is there a moral imperative to drive 55 instead of 60?

Is J-Walking immoral?

Is paying taxes late immoral?

[newyawker99]

10. Hi KensPen!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Guaranteed]

15. That's not what he said.

Of course not all laws are based on morality. AND, not everything with a moral value (right or wrong) has legislation related to it.

HOWEVER, laws are only given relevance and authority because of the prior existence of right and wrong. If someone says to me, "You should adhere to the law," and I ask them why, what are they going to tell me? "Because it's the law"? No, that's circular logic. It's the right thing to do- that's why you follow the law. Whether it's the right thing to do for practical or ideological reasons is a matter of debate. But, whichever way you argue, clearly, it's right.

AND, while not always relevant, and not always morally correct, it's also clear that laws have a firm basis in morality.

[patdem]

2. Seems it is legal to steal people's only livlihood..ie Ken Lay

but I find it totally immoral, and thus should be made illegal!!

[Ksec]

5. life is always immoral

only the hereafter is pure.

[Zynx]

6. Nope. You're wrong.

There are many things that are legal that are immoral or unethical. Not everything that is legal is good and not everything that is illegal is evil.

[polmaven]

7. I totally disagree...

There are many things that are legal that I think are immoral.

I think the death penalty is immoral, but it is legal. George Bush's (p)residency is immoral, but it is legal. Letting people go hungry and homeless or without access to good quality health care is immoral, but it is legal. This war is immoral, but it is "legal".

There are also things that are illegal which I think are moral. Homosexual marriage, for instance.

We do not need to be fundies, or even religious to think in terms of morality. I happen to have a deep religious faith. I am very much a liberal. Many of my friends are athiests and are among the most moral people I know.

"Anything goes" if it isn't illegal? No! If other people are hurt by our actions, legal or not, it is immoral. It is wrong.

[forgethell]

8. By your way of thinking

Bush really did win the election, because the US Supreme Court, the final arbiter of legal and illegal in the United States said so?

Glad to have that cleared up.

[Nikia]

9. Good arguement for a totalitarian regime

Tell people there is no right or wrong. Only obeying the laws is important. Then make a bunch of laws that people would have normally found immoral. I believe this was the MO of the Nazis in Germany.

[RandomKoolzip]

11. According to the laws of other countries....

Hitler's extermination of the Jews was both moral and legal...if your premise were to extend to the laws brought about at time of the Third Reich.

Idi Amin eating the flesh of his country's dissidents was both moral and legal...if we allow Amin to frame the terms of debate.

Obviously, I disagree with you.

Each sovreign nation makes its own laws, which is not always to say that said law is the ultimate arbiter of morality; in fact throughout the ages, humans have allowed brutal dictators to enact moral and legal codes that most sane people would find reprehensible. Your argument may go over well at a libertarian party fundraiser, but not here.

[liberalmuse]

12. I totally disagree.

Mores and laws change over time, and more often than not, are put into place by the powers that be in order to control a populace. Ethics, justice/fairness and logic do not change over time. It's best to go with the latter when making decisions.

[booley]

13. actually both cons and Liberals think in moral terms

it's just we both think of morality differently.

to the cons , self interest is moral, social programs are immoral. And anybody who i ssuffering does so becuase they must have done soemthing to deserve it.

To us Liberals, self interest shouldn't interfere with the greater good, government is supposed to help it's people and bad things do happen to good people.

A broad generalization, I know. Bu to say that only Wacky fundies think in terms of morality is just incorrect. I am a liberal becuase of what I beleive to be moral and good

[Guaranteed]

14. Sorry, bud.

There are value judgments without religion. I can't believe you're even trying to argue the case that there aren't.

[maggrwaggr]

16. anything goes -- if you can get away with it

that's how these people think.

That's why they need to go.

That's the criminal mindset.

[htuttle]

17. Morals or Ethics?

Maybe this is a distinction that should be made more often. The way I've always used the words, Morals means how I conduct myself, by myself, or with consenting others. Ethics is how I treat others in the world at large.

Morality is a deeply personal issue. Ethics is not. It's not morals which is the basis of the law, ethics is.

We seem to confuse them all the time. While I don't have anything to say on who has sex with who (as long as all are consenting, and of course, capable of consent), I DO have something to say on how one person treats another on the street, on the job, and in the marketplace.

The Common Good stems from ethics, not morals. When you get right down to it, the word 'Morals' is a code word for SEX. Ethics covers just about everything else.

[Guaranteed]

18. Yeah, I get the feeling a lot of people around here

relate morality to religion.

Morality is just understanding that right and wrong exist, that there is a difference between them, and having a basic understanding of what they are (the Golden Rule, among other things- oh great, I used a religious term). These are rules for everyone- "categorical imperatives," perhaps. Don't kill or hurt people. Don't steal. Don't vote Republican ;).

Ethics are more situation-based rules. Like, if you're a doctor, the list of right things to do is such-and-such. Or, if you're in a row-boat, and your mother and Vice President Dick Cheney are drowning near you in the lake, who do you save? Those are ethical questions. They have to do more with "the way things should be done" given a situation or professional issues.

[htuttle]

19. I think I have a broader definition of Ethics...

...and a narrower definition of Morality. In fact, I don't find myself using the word morality very much. No doubt, it's due to the religious connotations of the word.

Also, ages ago when I did a short stint as a Philosophy major, I took an Ethics class, and it concentrated on the roots of various ethics, aka, Aristotle, Kant, Mills, Gilligan, etc... I'm not sure the word 'morality' was used once in that discussion. That probably broadened what I consider Ethics.

Interestingly enough, religion wasn't mentioned much either.

As far as ethics being situationally based, well, that in itself is an ethical decision, ie., the deontology vs teleology debate, ie., can hoped-for-ends ever justify means (if the means need justification). If a person *believes* that God told them to do something, are they justified in doing it if it is otherwise unethical?

[Selwynn]

20. I completely and utterly disagree.

[Blue_Chill]

21. That's a horrible way to think

There is right and wrong to thikn otherwise is to allow absolute evil to take over.