I found proof of poll freeping here at DU...

[TLM]

Before anybody accuses me of being intentionally posting flamebait or agitating etc... I think people here at DU have a right to know how the Clark folks are trying to manipulate them and dishonestly skew polls and discussions with ringers.

I did a search on the clark04 official blog for "democraticunderground.com" and found several instances of calls being made to Clark blogers to come to DU to promote Clark, bas Dean, and vote for Clark in DU polls... some even with direct links.

They are openly calling for Clark folks to flood DU, to freep polls and convert people here. SO keep that in mind when you see the "testimonials" and the so called independent evaluations of Clark from the glut of newbies who suddenly show up.

This is an organized and orchestrated effort to create the appearance of DU being massively for Clark to try and win over converts with the good old bandwagon method. Just like Bush has to truck in his own supporters to photo ops... Clark Corps have to bring their own people in from the Clark Blog to act as converts and undecided voters and to try and drown out non-Clark voices on DU.


_________________________________________________________________

http://blog.forclark.com/story/2003/11/13/192741/61

Vote in this poll
By Harry
Posted to Harry's weblog on Thu Nov 13th, 2003 at 07:27:41 PM EST
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=703 769&mesg_id=703769

_________________________________________________________________

http://blog.forclark.com/story/2003/11/30/142815/81


Interesting threads going on at DU...
By wyldwolf
Posted to wyldwolf's weblog (Soapbox) on Sun Nov 30th, 2003 at 02:28:15 PM EST
New allegations of Howard Dean sealing his records because of a hint of graft?

Dean supporters in deep denial...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=797 202&mesg_id=797202

_________________________________________________________________



http://blog.forclark.com/story/2003/11/26/12446/234

By dmurch
Posted to dmurch's weblog (Call To Action) on Wed Nov 26th, 2003 at 12:44:06 PM EST
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=108

This is a link to the Democratic Underground web site and forum. There is very little support for Clark on this site. This a forum for all Dems to discuss the issues and to talk up your candidate. If we have enough people go and participate we may be able to win some converts. My name on the forum is

dougforclark
_________________________________________________________________

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Wow be very afraid

Like a DU poll means anything

[THUNDER HANDS]

7. yeah, I wonder what this does to our margin of error

* - note, the margin of error in this poll is +/- 50

:D

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. The Thread Should End Right Here....

You nailed it.....

[ShaneGR]

61. seriously, it it bad to organise? I'm sure the same stuff is on all blogs

How many times on DU has someone asked people to vote in a CNN or MSNBC poll?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

92. If we don't organize we're fucked so you tell me?

:D

[Eloriel]

93. Actually, the same stuff is NOT on all blogs

I've never seen it on the Dean blog. Never.

Eloriel

[jsw_81]

2. Clark

That would certainly explain the sudden surge of support for Clark in our polls around here.

[slinkerwink]

3. but it's annoying when we have primary polls here on DU

and they go for Clark because there's a disproportionate number of Clarkies here since DU is promoted heavily on the Clark blog, so the polls really have no intrinsic value.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. With all due respect they would have no intrinsic value anyway

[slinkerwink]

9. yes, but it's still annoying when Clarkites go outside DU

to get people to vote in those polls as if they matter.

[elperromagico]

14. Promote DU on the Dean blog, then.

This is a non-problem, y'know.

[ShaneGR]

69. So go to the Dean blog and organise

That's how politics works.

[MrSoundAndVision]

4. Oh of course it's orchestrated

I haven't heard Clark actually say anything specific about any issue other than that he had no problem with gays in the military because he never saw them or knew about them.

The guy doesn't have ideas, just a committee. So we'll see how far the bandwagon goes, maybe you should join the Kucinich campaign, cause the guy isn't drawing from OUR ranks. :)

[rumguy]

5. so what?

they're democrats...but since you think Clark is a "fear monger" I guess to you they aren't welcome...

[TLM]

33. You're confusing two issues here...

I have no problem with dems who support Clark posting on DU.


What I have a problem with is this effort to have CLark folks flood DU to create the flase impression that all these DU folks are shifting their support to Clark... which is exactly what they are doing.

Simply read the posts in some of these polls... some of these same folks go on and on about the shift to CLark... look at all the DUers supporting Clark... but they're Clark folks who came here already supporting Clark because of calls put out on the blog to freep DU polls and flood out non clark voices on DU.

[Freddie Stubbs]

8. You made it sound like it was Republicans doing it

My attitude is the more the merrier. Perhaps some of these Clark supporters will read some things here that may cause them to support another candidate.

At least dougforclark is using a handle that makes it very obvious as to who he is supporting.

[TLM]

17. It is a typicaly republican tactic.... hence the term "freep."

The whole idea of calling people in specificaly to flood DU, jump into Dean bashing treads, freep DU polls for Clark, and try to convert folks on DU is annoying to say the least.

Especialy when these folks were accusing me and others of being liars when we said this was happening starting a few weeks back.

[Catfish]

70. I welcome supporters of any Democratic candidate.

The more Democrats who come here, the better. Some Clark supporters might just learn something from the supporters of other candidates. I don't know who I support, it shifts. I'm a Democratic Party supporter in the end. This is a great place to discuss and to get links to articles as well as breaking news, I'd like to see anyone come here who is not disruptive. I don't think the polls mean very much.

[WilliamPitt]

10. Good for them

Every other campaign with a brain is doing it. Oooooh...I feel so...violated...not.

[TLM]

28. Will you have to admit that freeping polls is dishonest...

we do a poll on DU to get a feel for who folks here support... and the Clark folks send out a call on the Clark blog, just like a freeper on FR does, to have their folks flood in here and vote on the polls for Clark.


It is one thing to encourage folks to come here... it is another thing to provide links on the blog to specific threads to get folks to flood out the non-clark voices and skew DU polls. All the while they try to act like all these people on DU are suddenly shifting their support to Clark... when in fact these are Clark folks coming to DU. Nobody shifted a god damned thing,these are already Clark faithful... but that's the impression they're trying to dishonestly create.

[KittyWampus]

40. Prove The People Who Vote In The Polls Here

aren't actually joining and participating and/or lurking.

There is a huge number of people who are members here who don't join into the discussions.

And a big part of the reason many don't participate is obnoxious posters of which you are a good representation.

In order to vote in the polls you have to be a member.

[TLM]

66. As I already showed... you can join DU, register and vote in a poll...

in under 5 minutes and without posting a single post.

[unfrigginreal]

43. The next time Josh Marshall goes on an 'astroturf' hunting expedition...

he can give the Clarkies a mention on his weblog.

[WilliamPitt]

56. Prove to me the Dean people or the Kerry people don't do this

and I'll give you're righteous indignation some credence. Until then, a poll on DU is as unscientific as you can get. One has to be registered to vote in these polls, yes? Well...

[TLM]

74. Will you know better than to demand proof of a negative...

Kerry folks and Dean folks could do this, however I've seen no evidence of anything beyond sharing information and talking points.

I've not seen any other group put out the call for poll freeping and flooding like this.

[WilliamPitt]

88. Nothing you've found, right?

[ShaneGR]

78. That is NOT freeping

The term freeping came from users who voted in online polls and deleted the cookies in their browser so they could vote over and over.

Asking people to vote in a poll is not freeping, deliberately cheating the poll is.

[TLM]

89. Nope... calling for your pals to flood in and skew a poll is freeping...

regardless fo the specific methods used to skew the poll.

[monarch]

11. Seems like an OK strategy to me

Except for the suggestion about bashing Dean, I think the Clark people are right to encourage supporters to come here to talk issues. I also think it makes DU look good.

[unfrigginreal]

12. Would you expect any less from some of them?

This doesn't suprise me at all. Ignore the phony momentum.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

21. Same here... I've been called a liar becuase I said this was happening

when all these single post count folks started showing up in DU polls where Clark was suddenly jumping ahead by 50-100 votes.


They're flat out freeping the DU polls.

[joeybee12]

26. Yeah, and they know they're doing it (the Clark people) because they

were really defensive about it.

Doesn't matter in the long run, but it's fairly disingenious of them to do so.

[TLM]

39. Exactly it is not so much the support for Clark I have a problem with...

It is the effort to dishonestly attempt to make it look like all these DU regulars are SHIFTING their support from their candidates to Clark. When the fact is that the people who represent this sudden jump in Clark support are already Clark supporters who have been called in from the blog specifically to bash Dean, freep DU polls for Clark, and try to convert folks.

Bring in all the supporters you want, but do not try to lie and make it seem as if DUers are switching candidates or that these new Clark folks are undecided voters who just happen to bash every candidate but Clark. Because the fact is these folks are Clark supporters from the start, who came here from the Clark blog with an agenda to promote Clark and bash other candidates.

[BootinUp]

15. Proof?

hardly that. I try to remember the user names of Clark supporters and others that make worthwile posts for other candidates and I don't see an influx of people just to make Clark poll better. I do see people that really believe Clark would make a great President. And they try to support that with some explanation.

Can't we all get along? I mean instead of attacking Clark supporters, why don't you try to make a compelling case for your favorite candidates.

[Code_Name_D]

37. Rather strange, coming from one self named Jim-4-Wes(ley Clark)

Don't you think?

[BootinUp]

68. Nope

I make no apologies for being a democrat and one that happens to support Clark. In case you didn't notice I have donated to DU, I think its a great thing if it gets Dems to talk about issues, keeps people interested and helps wins elections...You know what F you if you don't like the fact that I wanted to be a member.

[TLM]

51. Yes proof, did you miss the links I posted....

links to posts on CLark's oficial blog calloing for Clark folks to come to DU, with links to specific threads and talking points for trashing other candidates and one had a link to a DU poll to freep for Clark.


"I don't see an influx of people just to make Clark poll better. I do see people that really believe Clark would make a great President. "


And why do you think the folks who are freeping polls and bashing other candidates are not Clark true believers? These are Clark Corps faithful... of course they "really believe Clark would make a great President" just like the freepers do what they do because they, really believe Bush would make a great President.

Being a true beleiver or not, does nothing to change the nature of these tactics.

[hedda_foil]

57. Member since Nov 07th 2003

Gee, it's interesting when one of the very people who has demonstrated sudden interest in DU in the interest of a single candidate (as shown in your user name), you're just demonstrating what's going on. Deny away.

Dean supporters were accused of flooding the boards around May, but poll after poll and thread after thread showed clearly that all but a miniscule fraction were very long term DUers. In the case of Clark, there are certainly quite a few long-termers who I have no problem with. But more than half of Clark posters (by my count on several long Dean-bashing by Clarkers thread) have joined since October, which certainly appears to be coordinated. Your find simply provides further proof of what's going on.

[Padraig18]

16. Big deal!

The more Democrats it brings into DU, the better. I could give a rat's arse about the polls here... :shrug:

[oasis]

18. Everyone voting in polls should register a "check in" post on the thread.

they don't necessarily have to indicate who they voted for but it would ease suspicions about whose participating in the polls.

[TLM]

55. I think there should be a 100 post limit before you can vote in DU polls.

I was able to create a 2nd account, register and vote again in a DU poll in under 5 minutes without posting anything.

We need a 100 post limit before you can vote... that will at least do something to halt this kind of poll freeping on DU.

[madfloridian]

19. I called attention to all the "switching" going on.

I got yelled at for that.

[slinkerwink]

20. yeah, it is unfair.....

but to level the playing field, I'll promote DU on the Dean blog.

[TLM]

59. We have to at this point.... what other choice do we have?

We now need to bring in Dean folks from outside to counter the mass of Clark folks being brought in to try and create the appearance that all these DUers are switching support to Clark.

[Rose Siding]

91. I wouldn't

I'd ask first that time be spent writing a letter before I'd invite anyone to get their head beat in around here.

[Ksec]

22. Im sure the Deanies are above this tactic...

Really cmon. Like they all arent doing this.

[Tinoire]

23. You think that's bad? Check this CNN poll out

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/special/president/quickvote/frameset.exclude.1.html

Vote by clicking on the red "You Vote"


or if you just want to go straight for the laugh, go to:
http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/6110.html

I mean, really!

[slinkerwink]

25. That was obviously a Clark bot that did that.

[Tinoire]

29. Not very subtle we agree. n/t

[slinkerwink]

32. 1.6 million votes?

that's not subtle. ha. ;-)

[Ksec]

72. that was a real poll???

[Bill of Rights]

24. I've been lurking here since September

and just started writing posts. It's true that people on the Clark blog like to read some of the information on Democratic Underground. So some of those posts are just, "Look what they are talking about on DU." And it is true that there are posts on the Clark blog saying, "Hurry up and vote on the DU straw poll." The latter posts are much less frequent than the former type.

Why don't Dean fans encourage their comrades to see what is on DU? They may like it, too.

[slinkerwink]

27. I just promoted DU on the Dean blog....

we'll see if we can get any Deaniacs to come here.

[BootinUp]

31. I would welcome them

I mean I don't know if you said that in a sarcastic way or not, but don't we want DU to be more well known among democrats?

[seventhson]

30. Very Telling words:

From the clarkie:
"This is a link to the Democratic Underground web site and forum. There is very little support for Clark on this site."

I am glad you brought this to our attention.

I wondered how these polls were so slanted lately.

Al's fair in politics, I guess, but it is good to KNOW that it is happening.

When ANYONE asserts that there is a "planned" incursion here we get scolded and locked.

Obviously political operations are all over the place.

But to imply that the opinions here do not matter is ridiculous. We are a barometer of the left and a magnet for everyone else. Knowing that there are "outside" elements using this board to sway what appears to be the prevailing opinion barometers here for Dean is a sign that this site matters and that the Clark people KNOW they need to use this site to bang the drum for Clark.

The fact that the Clark guy says there is little support for Clark here is VERY telling.

But you guys know I feel Clark is just a member of Bush's military-corporate tag team.

[Bill of Rights]

35. I think a person can be left and be a Clarkie

I am a lesbian feminist with a partner and two adopted children. I've slept outside in Minnesota winters to protest Sperry Univac's decision to make bombs. I protested Reagan when he came to town and got thrown into jail during the feminist Take Back the Night march. I am a true lefty and a Clarkie. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[ClassWarrior]

34. Repeat after me...

"I will vote for whichever of these fine Americans becomes the nominee..."

Say it loud, say it often.

[annxburns]

47. Jesus, ya know this is part of the reason I can't warm up to Dean ...

... I will support him if he is the nominee but I will despair if he does get it. Dean and his supporters give off this attitude of ...

your not welcome here
your not a REAL democrat
you have to be stupid to support x

and it really annoys me. Do we not want our nominee to have broad support? Do we not want Democratic Underground to thrive and survive and have more members?

I troll at both the Dean and Clark blog because they are the most active (the other candidates are snoozing). Dean's blog lists polls all the time (constantly!) and asks it's members to vote in them. Especially polls at the dailykos or at online news sites. There is nothing wrong with this. It gets people more active and involved.

But the fact that clark's camp does this is somehow beyond the pale.
BTW, I am not in Clark's camp yet - I still think he may be to new of a politician to win, but I am glad he joined the race and is slamming Bush.

[ClassWarrior]

58. Uh-Uh-Uhhhh!!...

Now stop it!

Repeat after me: "I will vote for whichever of these fine Americans becomes the nominee..."

There, now doesn't that feel better?

[KittyWampus]

36. Ah... I Remember The Days When Dean Supporters Began Flooding DU

Same whining by the Kerryites.

So we must not have any mention of DU anywheres else on the web.


Did I miss the memo where Du'ers are sworn to secrecy?

[TLM]

79. The days when Dean folks started flooding DU...

the vast majority of those folks were already DU regulars, like myself who were on DU long before hearing about Dean.

[BootinUp]

81. Proove it

I mean this is your opinion right or can you back it up in a substantial way?

As I said in another post I welcome Dean bloggers or any other democrats who spend time surfing to join DU.

[uhhuh]

38. I think this is ok

I don't think they should come here specifically to bash other candidates, but I dont see anything wrong with getting more Dems at DU.

BTW, I support both Clark and Dean, and all the other candidates. I think that getting any Dems involved in constructive debate is good. If they are going out of their way to flock here to bash candidates, then I think that would be something to be concerned about.

This is an open forum for Dems and progressives. It's not a private club. If the Clark supporters want to register and promote their candidate, and even (gasp) vote in the polls, that doesn't invalidate the poll results. They would be members just like anyone else. If they disrupt, then they will be gone, but until they do, they are within the rules to participate and advocate for their preferred candidate just as much as Dean supporters, or any other candidate's supporters.

I hope those that come here stay and participate in constructive ways. We would be smart to welcome all the help we can get. I hope they see the value in DU and stick around.

[Pastiche423]

41. Look at what is going on in real life

That is what is important, not what is going on on a internet board.

I find it amusing, albeit irritating that the clarkites push the illusion that their not so democrat's campaign is not faltering by mass invasion of DU.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

42. You just insinuated that Clark supporters

..are equivalent to freepers? No, wait, you didn't just insinuate it, you flat-out called us freepers! You should be banned for that.

[bicentennial_baby]

46. Yes he did

but it's what I've come to expect from TLM...It's hard for me to give some candidate supporters respect, when my own candidate's supporters get jack shit in return. I could'nt give a fuck less what Dean supporters are doing on internet polls, seeing as they have ZERO bearing on the REAL WORLD. Some people here seem to have a fixation on other candidate's supporters...can't be healthy...

[TLM]

82. No I said Clark supporters are freeping DU polls...

and the link I provided proves that is true.

Accusing someone of freeping a poll, isn't saying they are memebers of freerepublic... it simply means you're using the same tactics they use to dishonestly skew polls in the direction you want.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. NEWSFLASH: Dean fanatic prmotes ACRIMONY on DU!

with paranoid rantings about polls that mean nothing being "freeped"...although since Clark is a Democrat one wonders where FREEP comes from

[Code_Name_D]

48. Not all freeps are Republicans.

Many only claim to be democrats. Like good old Holly Joe.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. Hmmmm

Are you like the Grand Poobah of the Democratic Party?


Do we have kiss your ring to be deemed a good Democrat....


Sheesh......

[bicentennial_baby]

50. Well

TLM considers the vast majority of Clark supporters to be FReepers or worse, so it's really no suprise. As for Clark, I don't think TLM even accepts him as a Democrat, as far as I know.

[Pastiche423]

52. clark was not a democrat

when he entered the Democratic primary.

He has an "E" in front of his "D".

I trust neither him, nor his invaders.

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. As long as a person

is a member of DU and votes, the polls are legitimate. The only way they can vote is to sign up. Why would this be a problem? I'm missing the point here.

[Spazito]

63. Good point!

It seems to me that, in all probability, many registered DU members are also members of sites that support their candidate and share interesting articles, etc, with both DU and their respective candidate sites. That, imo, would be a good thing not bad.

[_NorCal_D_]

53. ROFLMAO!

These are nothing more than fun, non-scientific polls, yet you act like Clark supporters have committed a crime. Certainly I'm disappointed that any polls on DU are 'freeped', but this is ridiculous.

[Tinoire]

60. It's no laughing matter. DU is known as a Leftist site. This is political

manouvering so that pretty soon we can hear on all the news outlets that even on an "extreme Leftist" site like Democraticunderground.com, Clark is polling at xx-high percent.

That combined with the millions that Soros is pouring into the Democratic Party and new Think Tanks where his good friend is polling so high, well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get the picture.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. I Would Think The Last Thing Clark Needs

is to be tagged the darling of the "Extreme Left"

[_NorCal_D_]

73. I see your point.

At the same time I doubt that the mainstream media would gauge the popularity of a candidate with a non-scientific, online poll from DU or elsewhere.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

77. When's the last time the mainstream media..

..referenced DU? Get real. Are Bush's approval ratings going down because radical, semi-fascist nutballs at FreeRepublic love him?

[hedda_foil]

67. Then why do Clark supporters take them SO seriously, pray tell.

Why do so many threads appear about how popular Clark is on DU based on these polls? And why are Clark supporters outside DU being asked to post at DU and vote in the polls?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. Don't Have A Clue....

I Don't Put Much Stock In Online Polls....

[bain_sidhe]

62. So Clark supporters are "freepers"???

I object to being equated with knuckle-dragging know-nothing low-lifes just because I'm not convinced that Dean is the second coming of Christ. I've been trying to decide between Clark and Dean. Thanks for making up my mind for me.

[bicentennial_baby]

64. Well said!

"I object to being equated with knuckle-dragging know-nothing low-lifes just because I'm not convinced that Dean is the second coming of Christ."

ROTFLMAO!

[Padraig18]

71. Please don't pick a candidate on the basis of his/her supporters.

I want to go on record here as saying that I personally believe Gen. Clark is a progressive Democrat. Does that cancel out the other comment, or at least help? :hi:

[_NorCal_D_]

80. You bet!

I'm a dyed in the wool freeper who receives weekly checks from the RNC and FreepRepublic for my handiwork! B-) :hi:

[brainshrub]

76. I see no problem here

As a die-hard Dean supporter I don't see why this is a problem. so the Clark peeps come here to vote...big deal. :|

[in_cog_ni_to]

84. Thanks brainshrub.

This anti-Clark, pro-Dean shit is becoming very childish. I feel like I'm back in 3rd grade sometimes. :( I try my best to stay out of the pro-Dean threads unless I have something nice to say, yet the Clark supporters are not afforded the same respect.

[wndycty]

85. Some of them may stay long after the election. . .

. . .I sort of resent that Clark supporters are being accused of "Freeping" I have been here forever. How come its wrong for posters on Clark blogs to send people here when we send people to CNN to vote all the time. Seems like a double standard to me. Besides when someone who supports a candidate (any candidate) sends people here it helps the DU grow. So to my fellow Clark supporters who have been driven here as a result of the campaign: Welcome and stay a while. . .this is your home!

[BootinUp]

95. That was a nice sentiment

Thanks,

Also, Not that some conspiracy theorists would believe me but I spend much more time here than at Clarks blog since I discovered DU.

[Padraig18]

87. I agree.

Big freakin' deal, IOW... :shrug:

[JNelson6563]

83. Rather telling

and quite reflective of my experience with RL Clarkies. Disappointing to say the least.

Julie

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. what does RL stand for?

[mzmolly]

90. Great find...I think it's most noteworthy

and I for one appreciate this info, regardless of the 'it's no biggie' posts. It's interesting if nothing else...

Specially this. LOL

By wyldwolf

http://blog.forclark.com/story/2003/11/30/142815/81

Posted to wyldwolf's weblog (Soapbox) on Sun Nov 30th, 2003 at 02:28:15 PM EST

New allegations of Howard Dean sealing his records because of a hint of graft?

Dean supporters in deep denial...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=797202&mesg_id=797202

he he. Me thinks clark bloggers should atleast have an original DU user name ;)

[newyawker99]

94. I am locking this thread.

1. DU rules prohibit speaking negatively about another DU member who is not present in the thread.

2. Allegations of infiltration and freeping of polls is just that...allegations. If you have proof that this is happening please hit the alert button and let the mods and the Administrators examine the situation.

3. Finally, calling any newbie who participates in a candidate thread an infiltrator is the same as calling that newbie a disruptor. There are specific DU rules which prohibit this.


NYer99
DU Moderator

[Toucano]

96. Where's the dishonesty? Where's the fraud?

Is it your claim that these new "invaders" from the Clark blog, don't actually support Clark? They're coming from the Clark blog, so I assume they support Clark. If they vote that way in a DU poll, a CNN poll, or any other online poll, where's the dishonesty?

Each DU member has one vote in a poll, right? So where's the fraud?

The only thing you're right in objecting to is the Clark supporter requesting other Clark supporters to bash another Democratic candidate. That's neither beneficial, necessary, nor cool.

The bottom line is the poll is as valid as it was before you made this discovery, which is to say, it ain't too valid anyway.

You are really exaggerating the significance of this.