"You can't fund social justice in a deficit" -- Howard Dean

[dobak]

Ok, I am a Clark supporter but I am a bit taken aback by this quote. Not only for it's meaning, but because I have never heard anyone mention it.

Anyway, flame away.


http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9466

The Dean You Don't Know

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean has been portrayed by his Democratic presidential opponents as a man who is too angry, too loud and too Liberal. But according to a new book by the reporters who covered his administration, Dean's fiscal record and policies were those of a textbook conservative—and Dean would be proud to say so.

.....

In "Fiscally Tight, but Not Always," one of several chapters Davis wrote for the book Howard Dean: A Citizen's Guide to the Man Who Would Be President (Steerforth Press, 2003), by a team of reporters from Vermont's Rutland Herald and Times-Argus, Davis describes how Dean—who was the Lt. governor when Republican Gov. Richard Snelling died of a heart attack in 1991—stayed the course charted by Snelling during his subsequent five-term tenure.

In speeches and on his Web site, the Democratic presidential candidate has said a "Dean administration in Washington will do what the Dean administration did in Vermont: we will balance the budget... to meet long-term fiscal commitments to protect Medicare and Social Security and relieve future generations of the stifling burden of debt." As Dean has said many times on the campaign trail, 'You can't fund social justice in a deficit.'

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Sorry, but Democrats should fight for Social Justice, deficit or not.

[Kurt Remarque]

1. maybe you should consult lbj

[dobak]

3. me or Dean?

[Wonk]

2. Deficits are bad, mmmkay? $6,925,065,499,881.34 debt outstanding already

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

[Andy_Stephenson]

8. and growing rapidly

nt

[Cloud]

30. Hmmm

Better start stocking up on precious metals before our currency crashes.

[evil_orange_cat]

4. temporary deficit in times of emergency... but...

you can't try to build a large network of social programs that you can't pay for...

Dean is right on.

[Julien Sorel]

9. 40 +years of deficits now. We must be on the verge of

financial collapse.

[WillyBrandt]

11. It's the magnitude of deficits that matter

We can sustain relatively small deficits forever. Literally forever.

But these huge behemouths are costing a ton of money, and are simply not sustainable. Something has to give. These ain't the deficits of yore, and they are bound to get worse.

Dean's right here, BB.

[Julien Sorel]

18. No, he isn't. It's the debt to income ratio

that's relevant; more importamt, it's the perception of financial health that our country enjoys.

Debt/GDP has gone up since this Bush got in, but not drastically so. I ran the figures once, and now I'm not going to bother doing it again, but the number was, if I recall, about 37%, which was around what it was when Bush got in. This is Dean thinking like a governor, not a president. Go to www.bea.gov and www.cbo.gov and you can do the federal data yourself.

Moreover, it's plain and simple an electoral loser. Nobody wants to hear about mortgaging the future and so on when they are worried about paying the rent, and they can open the newspaper and read where the economy is picking up and hear some cheery-voiced fool telling them that happy days are here again. It's Mondale in 1984 part II, with a less likeable candidate. People will listen to a message about the deficit when they feel they can afford to, which is how Clinton was able to successfully go after it.

[WillyBrandt]

20. But it's not merely the debt-to-GDP ratio now

It's the debt-to-GDP ratio in the upcoming years which is particuarly staggering (And I won't even begin to tack on the stunning amount of household debt that will serve as a drag on the economy.)

Where you might be right is in terms of strategy. If Dean can turn this around to "Bush is bankrupting us!" and connect it to people's shitty economic prospects, then it might work.

[evil_orange_cat]

19. 40+ years of debt, not deficit spending... there were surpluses...CLINTON

But yes, public debt has always remained.

[Eloriel]

21. Krugman thinks so

If you'd have heard him on any of the thoughtful talk show circuit (Charlie Rose, even Tim Russert's one-hour show), his remarks would've struck the fear of the Lord in you. Quite sobering. He is actually fearful about the continued EXISTENCE of this nation if we don't get things under control.

But you don't have to believe him. Just believe whatever you want.

Eloriel

[Julien Sorel]

28. When God passes on and names Krugman as his successor,

perhaps then I'll treat Krugman's pronouncements as coming from a burning bush.

[dobak]

10. Clinton managed to fund Social Justice and run a surplus

Bush:

$87 billion to Iraq

$400 billion giveaway to insurance and Drug Companies

etc...

etc...


------

I understand what Dean is talking about, but why doesn't he focus on taking the Bush admin to task for their spending instead of saying

We have a deficit, guess we can't spend money on Social Justice then


That just gives the Republicans an excuse to cut those programs then.

[WillyBrandt]

14. You've got it backwards

The Repubs have engineered a deficit in order to stymie social justice. (They literally hate these programs. It's not merely that they want tax cuts. They positively are against food stamps, etc., and would be against them if they were somehow free.)

Fighting deficits are part of the way towards sustainable social justice in America. Dean's got it right: we can't let them run up deficits to defund social welfare programs. We have to fight them explicitly on this front.

[Eloriel]

23. Good God! He DOES take Bush and the GOP to task - all the time

"If you want (fiscal sanity) you'd better elect a Democrat because the Republicans can't handle money."

"Borrow and spend Republicans."

He talks about the debt going on our grandchildren's credit cards, and on and on.

I'll bet he doesn't give a single stump speech without driving these and other points home -- HARD.

(I wish people who wish to criticize a candidate would bother to know what the hell they're talking about before they do.)

Eloriel

[bluestateguy]

5. Democrats shoud watch the deficit talk

If we bitch too much about the deficit and tghe need to balance the budget the Republicans may just give us what we ask for: slash Medicare, Social Security, and just about any other program that benefits people making less than $50,000 a year. Remember the expression, "be careful what you wish for. You just might get it."

[WillyBrandt]

6. Dean is right

You can't sustain social justice programs in the long term if you've got huge deficits. Like it or not, the bills have to be paid, either by raising taxes or by cutting spending.

The right wing knows this very well, which is one reason they aren't terribly unhappy with these very unconservative deficits. On the contrary, they provide, one day, an ample excuse to cut aid to the poor. (Witness, for instance, the hateful editorials and cartoons claiming that the prescription drug benefit will be paid by the elderly's grandchildren. Those opinions would get little hearing in a surplus.)

One other person who understood this is Bill Clinton. He understood that this isn't the 1930s (or at least wasn't) and given the demographic realities, surpluses are a positive good.

Surpluses allow us to keep low inflation and low interest rates, which help the poor and rich.

Surpluses allow us to have an economy that grows quickly without--again--the Fed raising rates or inflationing eating away at gains, helping all strata of society.

Surpluses allow us the luxury that seems to arise only when times are very good or very bad--namely the "luxury" of looking after those that are worse off.

Dean's quite right here. Clark is, I'm glad to say, of a similar mind.

Deficits bad. Remember that.

[tritsofme]

16. Surpluses will only do most of what you listed if impound it.

nt

[WilliamPitt]

7. You can't fight for it if you can't fund it

Funding it *is* fighting for it. Anything else is hot air.

[KittyWampus]

12. Well, Why Won't Dean Cut The Pentagon Budget?

They lost 3.2 trillion dollars....

As Clark, who proposes cutting it by 25%, says "Repbuplicans like weapons systems and Democrtats like people."s

[NewYorkerfromMass]

26. OMG! Dean would be a bigger friend to the Pentagon than Clark?

This shows how far advanced Kerry and Clark are in their understanding of defense and weapons systems. It's not how much you spend but what you spend it on. Dean's promise to not cut the Pentagon budget is just political cover for his military glass jaw.

[idlisambar]

31. A plus for Clark

Did he really propose a 25% cut, what did he say he would cut? Can someone provide a link?

[newyawker99]

33. Hi idlisambar!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[RevolutionStartsNow]

13. He's absolutely right

The more the deficit grows because of irresponsible tax cuts and illegal wars, the more social programs are threatened.

You'd be hard pressed to find a Dem that didn't agree with this statement. He's not saying he WON'T fund social programs, just that it becomes increasingly impossible as the deficit grows. I live in a prime example (California).

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. Fiscal Prudence has a bottom line, while "Social Justice" is

priceless.

If you guessed the hidden descriptive correctly, give yourself a star and Howard Dean a lemon.

[pruner]

17. if people give Dean lemons he'll probably do something stupid with them…

like make lemonade.

:eyes:

[bobbyboucher]

22. Many would chastise you for those sentiments

but it seems it is OK to run huge deficits for tax cuts for the wealthy and pouring billions into the defense budget, but giving people something to live on is political suicide. Hmmm.

What a sorry state of affairs.

[quaker bill]

24. You can fight for social justice with a deficit

But like Dean says, you can't fund it.

The time for 'you can have your cake and eat it too' government has to end. If you want to fund social justice efforts properly, be prepared to pay some taxes.

It is socially unjust to charge our needs to future generations.

Choosing to do an injustice to those who cannot vote yet is simply not a moral policy choice.

[Eloriel]

27. VERY well said

But then I seem to think that about most of your posts. ;-)

Eloriel

[dsc]

25. He is positively right

Deficts are bad for a multitude of reasons. First, even Clinton's surplusses were inflated by stealing SS money (mostly paid by poor and middle class taxpayers and all paid by laborers) and using it to subsidize the rest of government. That flow will reverse in a few decades time.

Second, deficits and a good economy lead to high interest rates. That transfers money from borrowers to lenders. It doesn't take Krugman to tell you who benefits from that. (Hint who has extra money to lend poor or rich?) Every percent increase in mortgage rates is over $1000 a year from the median home owner.

Third, the young will get hozed if we don't fix this mess. As it stands now we spend well over half the budget on SS, Medicare, the military, and interest on the debt. SS and Medicare are only going to get more expensive as time goes on. That leaves the military which can't be cut too much now given what we are doing with it and debt service. If people my age and younger don't wish to either have no benefits or sky high taxes or both this mess has to be cleaned up. We can't sustain this.

We will be a well armed Argentina if we don't get our house in order.

[WhosNext]

29. This is the one thing I REALLY like about Dean.

His total hawkishness on the deficit and balancing the budget. This is slowly becoming a Democratic issue. I love it. We can win alot of independents and pissed off conservatives with this stuff. I hope Dean continues to speak out on the bullshit that is Keynesian "over-the-top" economics. Dean will win Perot voters with this issue. More power to him.

[dean4america]

32. the quote that is usually used on the stump is...

You can't have/fund social justice/social justice programs when you run up huge deficits, which is why this President has them .

that's the whole point -- he wants to balance the budget so as to be ABLE to have social justice.