BurtWorm
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:12 AM
Original message |
Poll question: The Present Situation Is Most Like Which Period of History? |
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Edited on Tue Dec-02-03 11:24 AM by BurtWorm
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Barbara917
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:14 AM
Response to Original message |
1. The Fall of the Roman Empire |
HawkerHurricane
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
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the theft of lands by the wealthy, the use of the military for expansionism that benefits the wealthy, the rule by the wealthy overiding the rule of the people...
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terrya
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:14 AM
Response to Original message |
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Hayes stole the election in 1876, not the 1880's.
Interesting fact about that stolen election. Florida was one of the states involved in the theft.
Yes, my friends, we're in the Gilded Age right now. With thieves that make Jay Gould and company look like amateurs.
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BurtWorm
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
9. Thanks for the nitpick. |
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I'll fix the poll.
:toast:
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liberalhistorian
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:15 AM
Response to Original message |
3. 9/11 is to Shrub what the |
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Reichstag Fire was to Hitler, no question. Although there are plenty of similarities with the 1880's America as well.
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TXvote
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:15 AM
Response to Original message |
4. Rome Under Nero Comes To Mind |
Tom Rinaldo
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:16 AM
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5. Roman Republic moving towards Roman Empire |
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Clark made that comparison during a New Hampshire Public Radio interview (I bought the CD from them immediately - it was on a show called "The Exchange"). Absolutely flawed me. He went on to talk about the attempt to steal the 2000 Election among other things.
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SiobhanClancy
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:16 AM
Response to Original message |
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I don't think the country has been as divided since then,but it seems to be approaching that today.
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ShaneGR
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:16 AM
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BurtWorm
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #7 |
11. Could you be more specific? |
theivoryqueen
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:16 AM
Response to Original message |
8. period before French Revolution |
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and Bush said, "let 'em eat cake, those welfare bastards".
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Redbear
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:17 AM
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Combination of misplaced moralism (Prohibition) and unfettered greed led to Great Depression.
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knowledgeispower
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
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The "roaring 20's" (for a few at the expense of the many) ushered in the Great Depression of the 30's. If we continue down the path we are on now as a country (and have been for almost three decades now) another economic collapse is inevitable. Consumerism doesn't work without consumers.
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slaveplanet
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Tue Dec-02-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
35. it's right before great depression |
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The bubble burst in 2000 is nothing compared to what's coming. since then the market has risen in value, but not like gold which has risen 40% in the last eighteen months, The euro has gained 30% against the dollar replacing it as the premier currency. When the market and gold both go up there is big trouble brewing. 9/11 was only a primer, the real Reichstag event will be much bigger , is coming soon , and moves will be made to crush all dissent. Buffet and Soros aren't wrong when it comes to money matters.
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On the Road
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:19 AM
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If you listen to the GOP platform, it's beeen tried. And it almost resulted in a revolution.
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GreenPartyVoter
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:20 AM
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BurtWorm
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:24 AM
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14. I added two possibilities |
smirkymonkey
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:39 AM
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15. Throw in a little Vietnam |
bamademo
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:52 AM
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17. It seems like the McCarthy era to me |
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...with some of the Vietnam era mixed in as well.
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banana republican
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Tue Dec-02-03 11:53 AM
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I think that both the 50 BCE and the 1933 scenarios are valid
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nothingshocksmeanymore
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:00 PM
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19. I voted OTHER because it doesn't specifically mirror Hayes |
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It mirrors the period from approximately 1900 to approxiamtely 1935 which included the Teapot Dome scandal and the collapse of Unsull's empire. In fact some of the very Wall Street firms that benefitted from fascism during that era such as Sullivan and Cromwell and Morgan Bank are still around in newer incarnations. During this period the uprising that created Panama (completely manufactured by Wall Street so they could sell and build the Panama Canal a purchase they made for 12 million and sold to the US gov for 40 million pre-construction) occurred as well.
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BurtWorm
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
26. I cited Hayes because of the election theft |
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but I was trying to invoke the parallel between that era of robber barons and crony capitalism that Twain called the Gilded Age, which I believe continued into the period you're describing, and the present one. My brush may be painting too broad a stroke, but I think of that whole era between Reconstruction and the New Deal as a morass made by the less democratic, more beholden aspects of Republicanism.
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nothingshocksmeanymore
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
27. And the reason I cited a different era was because it had less to do |
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with the stolen election than it had to do with other players controlling policy...the specific dates I narrowed it down to was the highlights of Mark "Dollar" Hanna's career....that would be Rove's mentor as a historian..he has stated, in fact, in the past that he idolized Hanna.
Hanna's most infamous quote: In politics two things are important; money, and I forgot what the second one was (paraphrase)
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SoCalDem
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:03 PM
Response to Original message |
20. Attila , the Hun comes to mind |
Spider Jerusalem
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:07 PM
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22. Rome, 4th and 5th centuries CE. |
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The Western Empire, embroiled in wars that drained the Imperial treasury, corrupted the government and placed civil control in the hands of the military, destabilised the balance of power, and ultimately acheived nothing save to usher in the Dark Ages. 1930's Germany comes a close second.
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Snow
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:07 PM
Response to Original message |
23. I like the Gilded Age comparison, but |
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one of our very worse presidents, James Polk, gave Lincoln the opportunity to deliver some of his best speeches, against the war with Mexico - I've seen those speeches quoted a number of times here.
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starroute
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:08 PM
Response to Original message |
24. 1930, when prosperity was just around the corner |
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Coupled with a bit of Vietnam c. 1965.
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JNelson6563
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:11 PM
Response to Original message |
25. the slow climb to the middle-ages |
SpaceCatMeetsMars
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:25 PM
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28. Hey, what are some good books to read on historical parallels like these? |
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I read all you smarty pantses talking about the Roman empire and different emperors and so on. Do any of you have any books to recommend? I want to read a book about Greece and Rome and what there is to learn about it.
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Spider Jerusalem
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
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"The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". Good place to start. Public domain, etexts available in various places. Do a search for author "Edward Gibbon" on Project Gutenberg at http://www.gutenberg.org
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Snow
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Tue Dec-02-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
36. Gibbon writes the naughty parts in Latin.... |
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guess he couldn't write about Caligula's excesses in his own language.
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BurtWorm
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
31. Read Anthony Everitt's biography of Cicero |
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It's very, very well written, focussing not just on Cicero but on the whole political scene at the end of the Republic.
Louis Menand's The Metaphysical Club is a brilliant look at the intellectual life of the US between the Civil War and World War I. It's a bit dense (meaning thick with ideas, not just "thick") in places, but the stories of the people who held those ideas--Oliver Wendall Holmes, Jane Addams, John Dewey, etc.--are fascinating.
American Aurora by Richard Rosenfeld is an unorthodox history of the period right after Washington's second term, which was one of the most factional periods in the whole nation's history. It tells the story of Benjamin Bache, Ben Franklin's grandson, the editor of the American Aurora newspaper out of Philadelphia which took the side of the "French party"--Jefferson's radical Democratic-Republicans--against Adams' monarchistic Federalists.
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SpaceCatMeetsMars
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #31 |
33. Thanks so much to both of you! n/t |
Terwilliger
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:28 PM
Response to Original message |
29. feels like the dark ages |
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but it's worse because humans are capable of so much more now
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lumpy
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:41 PM
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when people were so miserably divided.
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AP
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Tue Dec-02-03 12:51 PM
Response to Original message |
34. 1890s - McKinley - Cuba - Spanish America War - Philipines War |
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McKinley was on the verge of turning America into a fascist state. Seriously. If McKinley hadn't picked TR as his VP, or if McKinley hadn't died, we would have turned into full-on oligopoly by 1900 or 1905. Mark Hannah had a plan for America that was totally scuppered by the fact that TR became president. TR was kind of like McCain. He was a RW'er with a conscience who saw the big picture of oligopoly, and was too much of a patriot to let that happen to America.
At the time, it was probably a sad lesson. All those Democrats tried to fight back against fascism, and couldn't do it. The successful fighter had to come from within the Republican party. (I'm sure the Republican party is always looking for the flip side of this -- the Democrat who's really a Republican who wants to destroy the Democratic party from within.)
Fortunately, 1932 proved that a Democrat could fight fascism from the left, and do it much more successfully. FDR was able to win 4 terms battling fascsim. TR was kicked out on his ass by his own party for obstructing their bigger plans.
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Yupster
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Tue Dec-02-03 01:21 PM
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I was thinking of the days of the British Empire where they were clearly the number one power, but also were clearly overstretched and on their way down.
Maybe Rome would be an example here too. Maybe around 300 ad.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag
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Tue Dec-02-03 01:39 PM
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38. Middle Ages but not quite |
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I'd say 4th and 5th century CE, when the Roman Empire was in the process of being taken over by the Church. Maybe * believes he's Constantinus, turning the "godless" America into "one nation under God".
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