Enough with the draft dodging accusations against Dean!

[Cleita]

He was refused by the military for not measuring up to their fitness standards. It has nothing to do with him being decrepit or crippled. In WWII it was called being 4F. One could be that for having diminished hearing or other physical shortcomings that wouldn't affect someone in day to day life, but that the military considered unacceptable. A man who had four children would also be exempt.

John Wayne, in spite of all the roles he played as soldier hero, never did a day in the military because he had four children. No one, but no one ever dumped on these men back then for not doing military service when they had been legally exempted from it. It's a ridiculous argument and who could have blamed anyone for being happy about not having to serve in the military in a very unpopular and bloody war.

Many defected to Canada. Many went AWOL including our Prez. Many went underground after burning their draft cards. Many in action deserted and weren't heard from for years. Those who were rejected by the military certainly must have breathed a sigh of relief but they didn't do anything wrong or illegal.

[RichV]

1. Um

Do you think this thread is going to do anything but start yet another flame war on this very topic?

[Cleita]

4. If it does I'm sure it will be locked.

I think everyone should take a saner look at this. Even if they don't like Dean this is what the Republicans would fling at him and we know that they are liars and spin shit like this out of proportion all the time.

[wtmusic]

2. I say let it rip

In firefighting it's called a 'controlled burn'. By the time next summer rolls around this nonissue will have completely burned itself out.

[whirlygigspin]

3. Why wasn't Dean in Vietnam like Bush?

That's what I want to know.

[wtmusic]

9. Actually, he wasn't in Vietnam like Bush wasn't

So there!

[caledesi]

11. ROTFLMAO! nt

[Andromeda]

25. Uh, Bush wasn't in Vietnam...

he was bush defending Texas in the Champagne division of the National Guard flying an obsolute plane that was never used in Vietnam and that was before he went AWOL the last 18 months. Nobody saw him during that time.

[Selwynn]

42. That's what the post says - Bush wasN'T

[RichV]

6. Well, you have fun with that

I'll sit this one out.

[ryharrin]

5. Come on, don't you realize this is old news?

The attack is on his stance of repealing the tax cut. No one cares about the draft stuff anymore. Yeah, the same people who say that dean's gun-neutral stance is terrible because its a republican stance are saying that he should take the republican stance on taxes. I know, they're not really serious are they? Sadly, I think they are.

[Cleita]

7. Well, if it's old news it's on every thread about Dean

except the nice one that Skinner authored.

[ryharrin]

15. Sorry, that was me being sarcastic.

And not in a mean way, just tired of the Dean bashing going on. It just seems that today the discussion has shifted to his tax stance, and how that's going to kill him in the south, even though he's doing pretty well in the polls down there.

[paulk]

8. Are YOU really serious?

"republican stance on taxes" ????

So the seven other candidates who don't agree with Dean on the tax cut are Republicans?

Dean and Gephardt - the only true Democrats....

[ryharrin]

14. I am serious. I'm saying that the Dean bashers

say that he should support the horrible tax cuts, instead of his plan of getting rid of Bush's tax cuts altogether, seeing where that leaves us, and cutting taxes for the poor/middle class if possible.

[paulk]

19. you're either not understanding this issue

or deliberately misrepresenting it. The middle class tax cuts were put in Bush's bill by Democrats. Part of Al Gore's platform was a middle class tax cut. Seven of the Dem. candidates want to get rid of the tax cuts to the rich, but keep the middle class tax cut. Dean and Gephardt want to rescind the entire tax cut. Dean is well in the minority on this... it's hardly a matter of "Dean bashers" - these are major policy differences.

[ryharrin]

22. My opinion is that without repealing the whole tax cut,

there won't be any way to fund social spending. Also, the middle class tax cut is too small of an amount of money to make any real difference to people. What's more important, $300 for some of the middle class (my family didn't see a cent, and we're right there in the middle class ~$50,000/yr) or free health care?

[caledesi]

10. This fake issue is the best Rove could do.

Rove was in Vermont about a month ago trying to get "dirt" on Dean. Suddenly, we are hit w/ "sealed records" and the "draft-dodger" bit. Puhleeze. Bush* was AWOL from 1971-1972 - let him explain just WHERE he was? He can't, can he?

I agree w/ you Cleita, this is total BS!

[slinkerwink]

12. me too!! The Army TURNED him Down!

[no name no slogan]

13. Clarification

Dean was declared "1Y" by the draft board, which is VERY different from a "4F" classification (which was still used at the time of the Vietnam War).

Although I don't blame Dean for not wanting to serve in Vietnam, it's still suspicious that he made a special appointment to see the Army physician to show him his x-rays (his number WAS NOT called up before he went in for his physical). It only proves that the wealthy and priviledged in this country get special breaks that aren't available to the rest of us who didn't grow up in the Hamptons and whose fathers did not work on Wall Street.

[Pastiche423]

16. Those that do not have wealthy families

can not get x-rays from their docotors?

Lame, really lame.

[opihimoimoi]

21. Rove and his Pub gang are not known to play fair, one on one, up and up.

Instead, its the stealthy, sneaky attacks. Its win by denigrating, sullying, and by inuendos. These guys are masters of the trade. They got money, position, and power.

You would think they would be fair, come to the table and discuss things up and up. After all, they got the power, the money, the position.

What they don't have, is the truth and the desire for the Common Good. So they go for distraction, distortion, and deception to cover their sorry asses. They mask their true intent which seems to be more control, more domination, more profits//// for them. They are not in the mood to share this world with anyone but themselves. They want it all.

They are the reason we have so much problemas.

[Cleita]

18. So according to you, if he had a

disability that can render him unfit for duty, he should have waited until he was called up? What if he wanted to enlist in another branch of the service before he was called up? It's not like he burned his draft card or anything. Also, what is this prejudice against someone who was fortunate enough to be born in privilege? We all know *W is a failure, but that doesn't mean all rich people are.

[ima_sinnic]

27. yeah, it's real "privileged" to get your medical records & x-rays

NOT
bitter much about people with money? actually, I mostly share your contempt. however, going to ones draft board with medical records and x-rays is hardly privileged. I know "ordinary" people who thankfully were also exempted from the draft for medical reasons. I also had friends in high school who were killed for no reason in that stinking fraudulent war.

I also cannot begrudge Dean his "privileged" background when I see the contribution he has made to society, beginning with lives undoubtedly saved, pain mitigated, and illnesses cured as a doctor and continuing through 11 years of public service as a governor. He also lives in a rational, conservative, nonluxurious way.

are you draft age? do you plan to lie about any possible medical conditions, hide your medical records, not divulge the name of any doctors you've seen, etc., so you can go kill or be killed in Iraq? If so, why don't you just go enlist?

[RBHam]

17. This is a non-issue, Dean was turned down.

He didn't fake it.

Those that would keep this issue alive are hurting their own credibility.

I was in the Armed Forces once, and let me tell you - skiing is a breeze compared to that.

My 70 year old mother in law still skis, but I'm pretty sure the Canadian Army wouldn't recruit her for Alpine Warfare.

[maggrwaggr]

20. hear hear. Take it from this guy with a bad back --

skiing and running in army boots with a pack on your back are two VERY different things.

One I could still do today, the other .... forget about it.

[Andromeda]

26. Good for your mother...

what's her secret?

[Cleita]

32. My seventy year old friend still goes skiing.

It comes from a lifetime of being physically fit. Although last winter she complained about the young kids on snowboards forcing her off the expert slope to the intermediate one.

[tlb]

23. Cleland, not Rove, called Dean on the draft dodging issue.

How difficult is that to keep straight ? Invoking Rove as the boogeyman each time when Dean is caught out again may be to some a handy way to suppress discussion and criticism of Dean, but it's dishonest, and it's not working.


"At a time when young Americans are being killed and wounded by President Bush’s failed policy in Iraq, we don’t need another governor who ran from going to Vietnam and leading our country," Cleland complained.

"We cannot afford to have a leader who weaseled out of going to Vietnam on a medical deferment for a bad back and wound up on the ski slopes of Aspen like Howard Dean," the Georgia Democrat railed.



Max Cleland raised a legitimate concern. Do democrats really want to have such a weasel as their candidate. It's not going to go away.

[RBHam]

24. Mr. Cleland was doing what he was told

Just another part of the deal he struck when he was quietly moved off the 9-11 commission.

The 9/11 "investigation"– sometimes priorities dictate

By Kerry Tomasi
Online Journal Contributing Writer
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/120603Tomasi/120603tomasi.html
Excerpt:
Now suppose you were a congressman assigned to investigate the 911 terrorist attacks. As you begin, it becomes apparent that certain members of the US government had conspired to allow the attacks to occur. In fact, it's just lying there, slightly below the surface, right out in the open. You immediately realize you're dealing with the kind of people who would—at the very least, and simply to further a political agenda—look the other way while 3,000 civilians were murdered.

And if that wasn't troubling enough, you then get a 'friendly' visit from someone you've never met before, inquiring into how well your daughter is doing at that overseas university in Dorm Room 305, and if your nephew made it into that prestigious preschool at 735 S. 4th Street in Atlanta.

You might even get a little note in the mail—laced with a powdery substance—just to help you sort things out in your head.

The message is quite clear, and your priorities dictate. When the "investigation" is complete, no governmental complicity in the crime is revealed.

(snip)
Addendum:

WASHINGTON, Nov. 23 (UPI)—Former Sen. Max Cleland, a Democrat, has been nominated by President Bush to serve on the board of the Export-Import Bank. As a result he will have to leave the commission investigating the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

The statutes governing the panel, formally known as The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, bar anyone who holds a federal job like being on the Ex-Im Board.

Cleland has been one of the more outspoken members of the commission, accusing the administration of delaying access to vital documents in an effort to run out the clock on its investigation.

My best wishes to Mr. Cleland, and all of his family members.

Sometimes priorities dictate.

[ima_sinnic]

28. a "legitimate concern"? "weasel"??

My respect for Max Cleland just plummeted. He sounds bitter. As someone who went through Vietnam and was horrendously wounded, he knows better. For this Democrat to be bashing another who is not only speaking out against Bush but also rallying the people in opposition to Bush--in numbers like nobody else--is unbelievable. So who does he support and why would he want to fragment and divide the Democrats? I smell the influence of Kerry in the air.

[Cleita]

33. So instead we have a leader who went AWOL starting a

preemptive war in Iraq. That's a weasel, now. Give me a break.

[blm]

36. And Cleland says that, too at every vet organization he speaks at.

Another voice that BushInc. wants stifled.

[economic justice]

29. I agree

We should stop the slams on Dean about this. The facts seem to support that this was nothing more than a medical situation.....not draft dodging.

[JNelson6563]

30. oh let them go

there is an army of Dean detractors out there who do nothing but talk about Dean. It's "Dean, Dean, Dean" all the time.

Then they turn around and whine "Dean gets all the media coverage!" LOL!!

Personally I would like to thank all the Dean Haterz for their help in our name-recognition efforts. The most talked about candidate in the race seems to make the news the most. One might think they'd get a clue and start talking aobut thier own candidates but, thankfully, they are apparently no capable of figuring it out. haha

Julie

[dobak]

31. He did not dodge the draft

But....

Come next November, after an all-out assault by Bush and Rove, a majority of Americans will think he had.

[Octafish]

34. Dean admits using deferment to skirt draft (Chicago Sun-Times)

The facts are Dean took a route not available to most poor Americans. He got a note from his orthopedist and an X-ray to match and demonstrated a quick recovery by spending that same winter skiing in Vale.

It may not matter to you, but it will to the GOP and Independents. Here's what Dean himself said:

Dean admits using deferment to skirt draft

November 24, 2003

BY DAVID RENNIE

WASHINGTON -- Howard Dean, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, has admitted dodging the Vietnam draft, obtaining a medical deferment for a back condition and then spending 10 months skiing.

Asked if he could have served 33 years ago despite his back condition, Dean told the New York Times: "I guess that's probably true. I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."

CONTINUED...

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-dean24.html

[Cleita]

37. No one was in a hurry to be in the military back then.

I don't understand what privilege has to do with it. Don't poor people get X-rays? At least back then, most people had some health coverage especially those of college age, who were able to get physical exams including X-rays and labs for very little cost through student health centers. Free clinics were also in vogue then, for others, so privilege has nothing to do with it. Also, even if he waited until he was called up, he would have gotten a deferment because of this or because he was going to college, like Clinton.

This was not unusual during the Korean war and Vietnam war. As a matter of fact, the attraction of doing military service for many of those too poor to go to college was that once they got out, they could qualify for the GI bill, clearly this was something rich guys didn't need.

[ibegurpard]

40. Stop trying to explain it

He got a medical exemption. End of story. As for the unbelievable spin in the article above, I would be curious to know whether Howard Dean would agree that he "admitted dodging the draft."

[gulliver]

35. The best we can hope for is that it loses us ...

... the AWOL issue. It will also hurt Dems unfairly in the national security arena.

From the Iowa debate.

BROKAW: Senator Kerry, thank you very much.

Governor Dean, in the last few days, what happened to you during the Vietnam era is beginning to get some attention. You got a deferment. You were classified 1Y. You took letters and an X-ray to your draft board because you had an unfused vertebrae in your back. But then you went skiing for the next year. Skied the moguls -- I've skied the moguls. I know how tough they are on your back -- at that time.

If you had any reservations about serving, why not just having left the letter at home and said, "Examine me; see what you think"? Why take the letter?

DEAN: I took the medical X-rays at the time.

Look, I did not serve in Vietnam. I was given a deferment by the United States Government because they did not feel they wanted me in the Army. Dick Gephardt didn't serve in Vietnam. Joe Lieberman didn't serve in Vietnam. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam. None of us up here except for General Clark served in Vietnam, and Senator Kerry.

I told the truth. I fulfilled my obligation. I took a physical. I failed the physical. If that makes this an issue, then so be it.

It will be an issue. Unfortunately (and unfairly but effectively) Bush will be able to say he "served in the national guard" while Dean was out skiing on a medical deferment. Instead of pounding Bush for the fraud he is, Dems will be on the defensive.

[Cleita]

38. One thing I have learned in life was not to be on

the defensive. One must deflect and then attack. One picks one's battles not the opposition. I think Dean has displayed this ability. Right now he is deflecting. Watch when he comes in for the attack though. Bush will be very surprised. I like that temper. I have worked for doctors and they all have that temper, but it's not irrational it's well grounded in the fact that mistakes by underlings can cause losses of life.

[9215]

39. This should not be and issue

UNTIL the Press spends an equal effort on Bush being AWOL. This is what gets me, the corporate whore Press are the inquisitors for the BFEE.

Everybody has "something" hide. Bush has been given a free ride on all the questions about his past. He is a loser in almost every facet except one: born into money.

[Selwynn]

41. I'm "4F" and I agree that these accusations are insulting.

It doesn't matter whether Dean was "glad" or not - anyone in their right mind should feel glad if the government tells them they can't be drafted. The issue is that the Goverment said, we don't want you for combat. End of story. What is the big deal?

This now formal Clark supporter thinks this attack on Dean is totally and wholly without merit.

[ibegurpard]

43. Thank you!

Nice to see that some people are keeping a level head.