"Dean ruled Vermont like a moderate Republican."

[Skwmom]

"In 1996, Ho-Ho was running for his third full term as the Republican, er, sorry, Democratic governor of Vermont. To Dean’s political enemies of the day — Democrats like Sens. Cheryl Rivers, Elizabeth Ready and Dick McCormack and House Speaker Michael Obuchowski — he was a GOP-style Grinch masquerading as a Democrat. His conservative fiscal management reflected his Republican genes."

"Gov. Dean committed the mortal sin of cutting spending on social programs. He also appointed “law and order” judges. Republi-cans trusted Dean to checkmate the Democrats. The Vermont GOP put up only token candidates against him because Ho-Ho ruled like a moderate Republican."

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/-thisweek/col/track.html

Will Howard Dean transform the Democratic Party into the equivalent of the moderate wing of the Republican Party?

On edit: I think this is a fair question since there is all this talk about Dean transforming the Democratic Party.

[slinkerwink]

1. Dean sure didn't act like a Republican when he signed a civil unions bill

and the GOP tried to bury him in the last election---they didn't succeed.

[Skwmom]

4. I believe he was forced to sign it. e/o/m

[killbotfactory]

10. you believe wrong

[Langis]

11. Yep he was forced to sign it by the courts.

He really shouldn't be taking credit for that.

[HFishbine]

37. Whaaaa?

How'd you get that idea in your head?

[bushisanidiot]

13. He Was Not Forced To Sign It. He took a VERY unpopular stance and ended

up winning the election anyway.. because he's right.. people cared more about the fact that vermont had a balanced budget, people were working, and everyone had affordable health care. when you get down to it, people won't vote on a gay rights issue alone (except maybe those of us who are gay), they vote on a multitude of other key issues.. and Dean had all the other key issues wrapped up in SPADES!

Dean's going all the way. There's no stopping him!!

Gawd, I can't wait for November!!!

[Langis]

18. I'm sorry but you are wrong,

"At about 1:30 this afternoon, with my staff, I signed the civil unions bill. I want to tell you why I signed it. The Supreme Court, Dec. 22, found the civil rights of some Vermonters were being denied. There were opportunities for those of us who were able to get married under the law that were not available to those people who were unable to get married. The Supreme Court laid out a series of possible choices which the state of Vermont could make to remedy this situation. After an enormous amount of work on the part of the Legislature, tremendous and equally soul-searching on the part of each member of first the House and then the Senate. After the most prolonged period of public input that I have ever seen in 22 years as a Vermont citizen, and I would venture to say, possibly the most prolonged and intense period of public debate in the history of the state, the Legislature crafted a bill, which I believe does meet the Supreme Court's test." - Howard Dean

http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=6897

[bushisanidiot]

27. Sounds Like He Was In Favor Of The Bill, Not Like He Had His Hands Tied

behind his back.

do you honestly think he was against the civil unions bill but was FORCED to sign it? give me a break! if he was so against it, why the hell did he say such good things about the bill?

you're only FORCED to do something if you do it even though you don't want to. if you willingly participate, you are NOT "forced".

so that's a bullsh*t arguement.

[retyred]

52. So now it's

What the meaning of the word "FORCED" is, LOL, you folks are really pathetic.

Forced Not Forced

" Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." – Groucho Marx



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[TLM]

36. Nope your wrong... The courts said they had to do something

it did not maindate the civil unions bill. Dean could have done as many other states did and amend the state constitution to rule out civil unions or gay marriage.


But you folks can't hope to prop up your bullshit attacks on Dean without lying about this.

[wyldwolf]

51. He was forced to sign it... or rather, he was forced to make a choice

In December 1999, the Vermont Supreme Court ruled that Vermont was "constitutionally required to extend to same-sex couples the common benefits and protections that flow from marriage under Vermont law." The court instructed the legislature to grant gays "inclusion within the marriage laws themselves or a parallel 'domestic partnership' or some equivalent statutory alternative."

Given that choice, Dean took the more conservative option. According to the Associated Press, Vermont's lieutenant governor and House speaker supported gay marriage, but Dean didn't. Gay marriage "makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else," Dean said at the time. He did encourage the legislature to pass a civil unions bill. But the alternative he averted was legalizing gay marriage, not preventing gay domestic partnerships.

Many supporters of the bill criticized Dean for signing it "in the closet," in private and without a ceremony.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2086952

That action has prompted a few reporters to ask Dean about his support for such a law at the national level. His answer has been virtually the same in all cases -- he is opposed. Why would he oppose a national law that he felt justified in endorsing for his state? Because he apparently believes that the federal government has no right to intervene in state decision-making.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8387

[dave29]

59. please read the rest of Dean's speech

it is a template on how to get difficult things done.

[paulk]

20. Dean was forced to sign the bill

by a Vermont court. Please get your "facts" straight.

http://www.gaypasg.org/Press%20Clippings/April%202003/Gay%20civil%20unions%20find%20support%20in%20Democratic%20field.htm

[killbotfactory]

29. No he wasn't.

He could have changed the VT constitution or sent the issue to be studied for who knows how long.

Get your facts straight.

[no name no slogan]

54. Sorry, but it's easier to sign a bill than change a constitution

state or otherwise. If Dean was so "in favor" of equal rights for GLBT folk, why did he sign the "civil unions" bill and not the bill that would have granted full legal marriage rights?

It was yet another Dean copout that's been spun to make it look like he's a "leader" on an issue.

Nice try, thanks for playing.

[killbotfactory]

58. Tell that to Hawaii and Alaska

Nobody seemed to clue them in.

[bushisanidiot]

31. Sorry, But You Can't Be "Forced" To Do Something You're In Favor Of

nice try in twisting the facts.

Dean was in favor of the civil unions decision. You show me where he said he was against it and I'll believe he was "forced".

[paulk]

35. read the article

or any one of a number of articles. this stuff is pretty easy to find, BTW. if you're really interested in the truth.

"As Slate Magazine's Campaign 2004 Field Guide points out, the Vermont Supreme Court forced him to choose between gay marriage and domestic partnerships. He chose domestic partnerships, which, with a small bit of irony, he signed into law while closeted, without ceremony or fanfare.

Dean, in his speeches, says the civil unions bill showed his courage. He says he stood up for change, regardless if it helped his election chances or not.

I think it shows him to be just another politician - he knew the risk, and didn't act until he was forced to.

http://www.jhunewsletter.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/09/26/3f73635e7a410



From "Mother Jones"
'
While the three long-shots didn't mince words, the other candidates danced the political dance around the issue of gay marriage. Howard Dean -- the first governor in the US to sign gay civil unions into law -- minced around the issue, suggesting that the federal government leave such decisions to the states. Dean told the crowd: "I'm for equal rights for all Americans," and bragged about the civil unions law he signed in Vermont. But his more liberal following might be surprised, as Philadelphia Inquirer's Dick Polman points out, that Dean only signed Vermont's civil union law when a state court ruling forced him to do it. Dean's "pro-gay" image was further tarnished during this exchange with the event's host, Sam Donaldson of ABC News.

"When Dean remarked that voters won't accept gay marriage because 'marriage has a long history as a religious institution,' Donaldson noted that times had changed, that contemporary weddings were often performed outside religious settings. 'That's true,' said Dean.
'Then why do you say it's a religious institution?'

'Because it is. '

'But you can go to a justice of the peace -- '

Dean cut him off. 'You want to keep talking about this?'"

Despite having been stuck with a "liberal" label, Dean stands neck-to-neck with other "states' rights" advocates. But of course, every Democrat with a fighting chance is trying hard to avoid seeming "too liberal." As Polman notes, however, Democratic candidates might have to start taking their queer constituencies seriously.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sean Reynolds]

55. Again, where does it say he was forced?

Tell me where Dean came out against such actions? If I recall when the Massachusetts' Supreme Court came down with its ruling, THEIR governor opposed it. Came out against it and said he'd do everything possible to fight it.

Compare that to when the Vermont Supreme Court came out with its ruling. Did Dean say he opposed it? Did Dean say he was going to do everything possible to fight it?

NO!

Fact is, Dean SUPPORTED the actions LONG before the court came down with the ruling. Fact is, Dean could have stalled the bill by going to the United States Supreme Court or by changing the state's constitution. He could have held it up in the courts WELL passed the elections which were coming up. HE did not, within ONE hour of the ruling, he signed the bill and it became law. Did Massachusetts' governor do that? No he didn't.

Also I see you don't realize that Dean came out AGAINST the repeal of the law. So if he was FORCED as you say, why would he be against the repeal?

Vermont governor says he’s “ashamed” of civil union repeal efforts
Friday, May 18, 2001

Vermont governor Howard Dean said Wednesday that opponents of the state’s civil unions law have crossed over the line of decency in their zeal to repeal the law, the Rutland Herald reports. “It made me ashamed of the legislature. It was one of the few times in this building I have been ashamed,’’ Dean said, referring to a pair of amendments that appeared earlier this week asking the state to declare gay and lesbian relationships “health hazards.’’ The house is expected to take up a bill next week that would repeal civil unions and instead create “reciprocal partnerships.’’ Like the civil unions law, the new law would give same-sex couples many of the rights and benefits that flow from marriage, but the new bill would expand the group of those who are eligible to include blood relatives, such as two siblings or a father and a daughter. Civil union opponents have also put forth amendments to repeal the civil unions law without a replacement system. The amendments would also specifically prohibit same-sex marriage and declare same-sex unions “health hazards.’’ The governor castigated the drafters of the amendments. “Years from now, when people read the legislation, it’s going to look like it would be for us to go back to the 1830s in the South and read about slave owners,’’ Dean said. “I think people’s personal sexual lives ought to be off bounds for this house. I think it’s, frankly, embarrassing that something like that was printed in the calendar.’’

http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?id=2665&sd=05/18/01

Yea, he was really forced.

[jeter]

61. So is Dean a liberal or a conservative?

I'm not sure. The attacks seem to go both ways.

[killbotfactory]

2. I guess that makes me a republican...

Since I like the way he goverened...

Learn something new every day.

[mzmolly]

3. "Ho Ho, is that 'inflamatory rhetoric' and thus against the DU user rules?

I think so. :hi:

[Skwmom]

8. I copied the passage. In addition, Ho Ho is what Dean supporters

call him on the Dean blog. So how is this inflamatory?

[theivoryqueen]

23. Like those chocolate rolled up sweet cakes

or sex professionals?

[mzmolly]

28. Ahhh, ho ho it is!

:)

[RWPTRBL]

15. I am new but...

it seems like someone in every thread is yelling "Inflamatory" or "Flamebait" What is up with that shit? I understand trying to keep the threads from turning into a Bashfest but seems like there may be a few overly sensitive people on here. You always have the option of going to the next thread..If i see one that irritates me I just move on

[ThirdWheelLegend]

32. wisdom from the mouths of newbies

:)

WELCOME TO DU

TWL

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bushisanidiot]

24. A Balanced Budget is NOT A repuke Value. Bzzt. Try Again!

heh..

is that better? ;)

Dean is fiscally conservative so that's one of the MANY ways he contrasts with repukes, so your initial quote is WRONG.

[PatrickS]

6. An Anti-Dean thread?

No way. We rarely get any of these around here.

BTW, does he eat children too?

[Skwmom]

12. I think the source is a Dean supporter. e/o/m

[LuminousX]

7. But the Democrats kept electing him... hmmmm

[CMT]

9. lets see

he provided health insurance for almost all kids, protected thousands of acres of land, signed the civil unions law, signed tough hate crime laws, raised the minimum wage twice--how many "moderate" republicans have that kind of record. It is better than the records of many so called "liberal" democrats.

If he was such a moderate republican why didn't he support Nixon, Reagan, and Bush I or make campaign contributions to the GOP?

[KittyWampus]

14. Dean Believed: Affirmative Action Should Be Based On Class Not Race

Energy Industry should be deregulated
Patient's should have limited ability to sue HMO's
American Indian tribes shouldn't be recognized unless they agree to forgo casinos
Social Security age should be raised

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skwmom]

30. Once you take an indepth look at Dean's record

many of the assertions you are making don't hold up.

[TLM]

40. Yes they do... care to prove otherwise...

Please cite prooof Dean did not support civil unions or that he did not expand healthcare coverage or that he did not raise the minimum wage...

[Willy Mugobeer]

16. Wait, I thought Dean was the wacko liberal lefty...

...who doesn't stand a chance to win a single state in the South.

You people have me all confused; I just can't figure out which stereotype you want me to fit him into.

Could the Kucinich people and the Clark people please get together, decide whether Dean is a flaming lefty or a rabid Republican, and then let me know? Thanks!

[LuminousX]

21. It is whatever will hurt him at the moment

He is the rare breed: a man who thinks for himself, neither right or left. It has his opponents confused.

[Skwmom]

26. With the way Dean constantly changes his opinion on various

issues I think he takes whatever position he thinks is to his political advantage at the time.

[LuminousX]

45. Evidence?

I seem to remember him taking one stance that was immensely unpopular. Conventional Wisdom said, "You can't attack Bush on foreign policy" and he did.

I've never seen him take a position that wasn't backed up by something tangible (except his death penalty position). Has he changed positions? You betchya. He's constantly evaluating his positions.

I'll stop now, because I know you cannot be convinced to support him or even convinced to stop posting derogatory remarks about him. One does not beg the Sun for mercy. It is in your nature. Peace.

[corporatewhore]

17. just like bush dean will

continue the occupation dont you deaniacs see that what about supporting our troops?no everything will not crumble if you put a LEGITAMITE governing body like the UN any way i did read a thread recently about how he cozied up to corps here. any way while in miami protesting the ftaa talks (which he is for just like bush) i met clean water activists from vermont who told me he was very anti environmental pro business as gov but the media will not report vt residents who think he did a horrible job as gov justlike the media ignored us texans who tought dubya was horrible as gov

[bobbyboucher]

19. Which is it, too liberal or too conservative?

I keep getting confused.

[corporatewhore]

33. too deceptive

i have had it up to here with deceptive "leaders"

[TLM]

41. Another dean bashing noob...

With no quotes, links, just bullshit accusations... etc.

[Hep]

22. Funny language

RULED Vermont.

Hello, red flag!

[TLM]

43. Yeah another hit piece from the far far left wing greens

in VT who hated Dean for allowing any level of development and for not supporting their anti-business positions.

Yet even these folks, many of them, have said they'd support Dean for president.

[Hep]

46. It comes down to, if you have to ask, you won't understand...

n/t

[Zomby Woof]

25. kickity kick

:kick:

[Stuckinthebush]

34. Great news!

We can use this to get moderate Republicans to see the light and vote Democratic!

[roguevalley]

39. When I was a kid, I ruled the waves like flipper. :)

[arendt]

42. This is not news to me, and certainly not the horror you claim.

Here is my thread explaining why I support Dean
in the primaries and any Dem in the general:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=185435

I wanted to be for Kerry, but he is unimpressive.
And more so by the day: cheap stunts - motorcycling
onto Leno, cussing in Rolling Stone. So what.
And where is his organization?

For that matter where is the DNC when ABC shits
all over three Democratic candidates?

Its about money and organization. Dean has both
and he does not seem to be beholden to anyone for
them.

That, in itself, will be the transformation of the
party: from a bunch of DC insider lawyers to an
internet driven mass party.

Dean puts out position papers I agree with.
He was a practicing medical doctor, which I find
much more reassuring than a very rich Senator with
a lot of medal's for taking big risks.

Now, Wesley Clark may grow an organization; but his
ties to Clinton/DLC are just too strong for me in
the primaries. He is simply too slick. I watched him
on the Daily Show last night, and if he looked sincere
and told a folksy story one more time, I was going to
scream. The man is a Rhodes Scholar. I find the gushy
adolescent shtick to be patronizing. I don't feel
patronized by Dean.

Just my 2 cents. Flame away

arendt

[DACT]

44. Fiscal responsibility is now a Republican value?

n/t

[Scott Lee]

47. How can you make the current Dem party any more republican?

It seems your fears have already been met by the current bunch. Out of fear, lack of vision and direction, and the corrupt clutch on entrenched entitlement and power, the Democratic Party as it stands today is more rightwing than I ever thought it would be.

And here's a hint: Being anti Iraq War, which Dean is, is not really considered a Rightwing Republican position these days.

[CWebster]

48. Better see who those "political enemies" are rallying around

MONTPELIER, Vt. -- They called themselves "the usual suspects." As a steadfast core of liberal Democratic politicians in Vermont, they spent more than a decade working closely, and often butting heads, with Howard Dean.

Now they also call themselves something else -- strong supporters of their former governor's surging presidential campaign.

"I know there are a lot of people up here surprised that I am backing him, 'cause I was one of the group that did not just go along with everything he wanted us to do," said Democrat Cheryl Rivers, a former six-term state senator from Stockbridge, who warred with Dean over his plan to change Vermont's health care system early in his tenure as governor. "I am preparing to be frequently disappointed, as I always am. But I see what Howard did here and what he brings to the race, and I give him my full endorsement."

As Dean vaulted from long shot to leader of the Democratic pack, some of his most vocal critics have closed ranks behind the man who reportedly once referred to fellow Vermont Democrats as inhabitants of "La-La Land." They did not share his penchant while governor for pragmatic politics and fiscal conservatism. And some bristled at his brusque leadership style. But now those differences have been largely forgiven, if not forgotten, in the face of a common goal.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A17514-2003Nov27?language=printer

[Octafish]

49. Coward Dean is Bush-Lite.

Ho-Ho says one thing. His record shows another thing.

Ho-Ho favors clean water, for example. As governor, he cut funding for enforcing EPA clean water regulations.

Source: League of Conservation Voters

http://www.lcv.org/Campaigns/Campaigns.cfm?ID=1957&c=4

[arendt]

50. Selective quotation strikes again. Here's a quote from that site

Summary
As governor of Vermont, Dean established some significant environmental credentials -protecting hundreds of thousands of acres of land and adopting a model energy efficiency program that has cut greenhouse gas emissions by one million tons. On the debit side, some Vermont environmentalists criticized Dean for his enforcement record on some clean water issues and for cutting funding to the state 's environmental agencies. However, since entering the presidential race, Dean has made a point of staking out strong pro-environment positions and his campaign produced one of the strongest and most detailed LCV presidential candidate questionnaires we received.

This quote shows a balanced picture, not the one sided screaming
you are doing.

arendt

[Octafish]

57. Like the Pruneface said: "Facts are stupid things."

Is the "selective quote" wrong? No. Dean de-funded clean water enforcement.

Why do Dean supporters get so angry whenever someone points out his record?

Candidate Dean
A True Regressive

by Josh Frank
Dissident Voice
August 4, 2003
 
Media pundits have been rattling their cages over Howard Dean’s so-called progressive agenda, but how wrong they’ve been.  Dean’s back seat criticism of the Bush Administration’s case for war should enlighten us to the fact that this ex-Vermont Governor’s leadership skills are lacking.  Prior to the dubious war on Iraq, Dean exclaimed he supported a multi-lateral invasion, but hardly questioned the disinformation spewed from the White House about Iraq’s threat to our national security.  And to top it off, Dean may well be a Zionist.  His unwavering support for the Sharon regime in Israel calls into question his motives for the Arab world.  Dean’s alignment with the pro-Sharon lobbying firm, American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), is a stark indicator that this Presidential hopeful’s view of “peace” is glaringly similar to that of King Bush.
 
Some Democrats have even been comparing Dean to George McGovern -- who back in 1972 lost the Presidential race by a landslide to incumbent Richard Nixon.  McGovern was a true liberal Democrat, and many claim that his progressive policies cost him the election.
 
But what progressive policies could cost Dean the 2004 election? Could it be his support for the racist death penalty?  Maybe it will be his praise of the outlandish Welfare Reform program Clinton and Gore mustered through Congress.  Or perhaps it’ll have to do with his idea that Iraq simply needs more troops for the ongoing occupation to succeed. He sounds a lot like some prominent Republican apologists on that one.  Somebody should ask Howard if he remembers a little country called Vietnam.
 
How in the heck did he get labeled a progressive anyway?  What radical changes is he even proposing?  His rhetoric is simplistic, and his populist mantra is reminiscent of Gore in 2000 - passionate, but toothless.  For example, he’ll say he’s for “grassroots democracy,” but won’t support campaign finance reform. He will also beat his chest over “universal healthcare,” but he won’t back any “sweeping reforms.”  How can we have universal healthcare without drastically changing our for-profit medical industry? Who is he kidding?

CONTINUED...

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles7/Frank_Howard-Dean.htm

[AntiCoup2K4]

60. Knock it off with the fucking Coward Dean crap already

Or does the name Bushwhore Kerry work for you??

1) Skull & Bones
2) Advised by PNAC
3) Willing to appoint Bush Criminals

[cryofan]

62. That's "Coward Dean III", if you please....

...tee hee!

[SahaleArm]

56. He governed Vermont like a Libertarian - Not a Republican

And yes libertarians would support civil unions and balanced budgets.

[Rose Siding]

63. Act 60 for educational equity was libertarian?

huh!

http://ruraledu.org/rpm/rpm304b.htm

I'm not familiar with their whole platform, but I doubt they'd favor any state involvement in health care either.

[stevebreeze]

64. I am a Kucinich suppporter but-------------

can't we let the oposition research up to the republicans? AND stop bashing each other!
:kick:

[quaker bill]

65. Times change, some people change.

Life is contextual. Vermont is very liberal.

Balanced budgets are sensible and moral. Deficit spending during a growing economy is irresponsible and immoral.

Liberals, I always thought, were moral. If you want to spend money on programs to assist people or protect the environment, pay some taxes and vote for leaders that will raise them if necessary.