Join the stopping of the "Stop Dean Movement"

[mzmolly]

ideas... I think we should let that thread sink to the next page where it belongs. And, I think I'll join just to keep an eye on things myself. ;)

[CMT]

1. yes

there already is a stop Dean movement and it is the Democratic voters in caucuses and primaries. If enough vote against him he will not get the nomination. If he does get the most votes and delegates he will have earned the nomination and the support of every real democrat everywhere.

[alwynsw]

2. Let it sink or float as the membership dictates

Is it not one of the prime reasons for this venue to provide a place for both the pros and cons of various candidates to be discussed - argued if you will?

Things can get a little rough, especially leading up to the primaries. We all know who we don't want in office. We must collectively decide who the opponent will be. Without free and open discussion about all issues and candidates, we cannot reach a consensus on either.

As my granddad, the preacher used to say, "A debate between a Methodist and a Baptist is good, but if you really want to see the fur fly, go watch a General Baptist and a Southern Baptist debate." My point: as happens with families, the closer we are, the hotter the argument. Same thing with religious debates and political debates and races - the closer we are idealogically, the deeper the divisions over a few issues that outsiders see as minor diversions.

If we are unwilling to let others on this board state their views for or against the candidate(s) of their choice, we are no better than those who would seize power and eliminate our freedoms.

Please note my signature line. Appropriate, don't you think?

[mzmolly]

4. I disagree. Promoting a movement to 'stop our frontrunner' is

and should be considered counter productive to the cause. I would not suggest we not debate candidates on their merits, but I would suggest that this is not what I expect from participants in a Democratic discussion board?

[alwynsw]

8. It seems as though you wish to allow only that discussion

that supports your view. Face it. This is politics. The worst antics often happen during the primaries - for both major parties.

[mzmolly]

31. Bull, I come here daily and have for the past year and disagreed with

people about candidates, but I would never subscribe to a stop X movement. It's about stopping BUSH, and that's it! :)

[alwynsw]

34. Does it not follow that all those not chosen at the convention

will be "stopped"? Isn't that a large part of the reason for primaries and caucuses - to advance one candidate and stop the others?

[alwynsw]

66. You've just subscribed by default

In order for your candidate to win, his/her opponents must, by necessity, be stopped (from receiving a plurality or majority at the polls).

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alwynsw]

23. It's simple

The originator of the thread either has a candidate he/she prefers or is opposed to the other candidate's platform in some way.

[not systems]

26. But to chicken to say which one they support.

A real class act, NOT!

[alwynsw]

32. Perhaps, like me, he is undecided

I do not know if that is the case with the Stop Dean thread originator. He states that he is, as yet, undecided.

What is obvious is that he is opposed to Dean or his platform. Therefore his position is legitimate IMO.

[not systems]

39. Legitimate maybe.

Truthful.

I doubt it.

I support Dean's platform so it is legitimate for me
to point out the cowardly nature of attacking him
without putting forth an alternate that you prefer.

I could accept your idea that he has not made up his
mind but it is less than believable to me.

So who are you leaning towards?

[alwynsw]

46. I'm not certain as yet, but I do

favor a candidate who is not Clark. Ii believe that my candidate has the best chance.

Were I to say more, I fear that some would doubt the sincerity of my posts on this thread.

O.K. No more pain! I'll tell! Let's just say that his most recent political experience has been in the land of Ben and Jerry's.

[drfemoe]

43. yeserday he was supporting Clark

search archives

[mzmolly]

33. Sorry, this is not what happened this was about stopping the democratic

front runner.

[alwynsw]

37. As is the right of every other Democratic candidate

and the duty of their supporters - or in this instance, the choice of on who is obviously opposed to Dean.

Are you advocating that we silence all dissent within the party? If we were to do that, we would be no better than the National Socialist Party of Nazi Germany or the more recent Ba'ath party of Iraq.

Debate for and against all candidates is what makes democracy work.

[mzmolly]

48. Each candidate should be focused on winning, not stopping the front runner

:)

[slinkerwink]

3. I agree

[Jerseycoa]

5. Link to "that thread"?

I shouldn't speak too soon, since I don't know the referenced thread, but generally, stopping Dean is what I would like my candidate to do in the next few months. If Dean can take it, he'll win. If he can't take it, he'll lose. That's primary politics.


:dem:

[mzmolly]

9. I agree, but to have a concerted effort among 'progressives/liberals'

to stop the front runner seems a but Bushesque.

[bearfartinthewoods]

70. no.declaring a winner before the votes are counted is bushesque

at this point in clinton's first run, he was down in the pack with less than 10%. if we are to have a meaningful primary, we cannot let internet zelots and the media declare dean the defacto nominee.

let the people vote! if 'stopping dean' and in my mind, i'm looking to slow him down is the way to have the primary process continue than i'm in.

[mzmolly]

75. Who delcared a winner?

not me. Dean is the 'front runner' which simply means he's ahead in the polls.

[TLM]

6. Now watch this thread get locked

While the newest "stop Dean" thread is allowed to stay up.

[alwynsw]

15. I sincerely hope this thread stays open

Read my other posts on this thread. Debate is good.

[mrgorth]

19. I'm thinking the same thing.

[bearfartinthewoods]

71. you should be pleased

the thread is locked, not for content but because of the vemon from the dean camp.

[not systems]

7. What is next...

join Bush 2004?!?

What are these shrill anti-Dean fanatics going to do
when he wraps up the nomination?

I hope they will get with the doctor and take down
Bush next fall.

[alwynsw]

14. I am as yet undecided

therefore, I welcome all comments for my consideration before I choose which candidate to back. I will back my party's nominee, as will most others.

Stifling debate at this point is counterproductive. Pick your candidate as soon as you're comfortable with his or her platform and get to it. If you are undecided, but strongly oppose a plank or planks in a candidate's platfom, by all means, campaign against him or her.

That's how the process works.

[not systems]

22. So if Dean get the nomination your in...

glad to hear it.

If the other's form a circular firing squad and
we get more Dean == Bin Ladin ads from within the
party you might want to get used to Bush for 4
more years.

Fortunatly Dean can take a hit and come up swinging
like the future president he is.

[alwynsw]

25. That's the point

and I believe you'll find it's true of others as well - even if they see it only as the lesser of two evils - ??? or Bush.

[mzmolly]

36. This isnt about 'debate' it's a concerted effort to defeat the most

likely candidate to beat *.

[the_boxer_]

57. It's attrocious...

:eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

10. we think alike...lol

n/t

[edzontar]

11. I think we should kick it to the top of the line every day...

Without comment, so it may serve as a reminder of the shameful depths to which these divisive and hurtful tactics can fall.

God help us all if this stuff keeps up.

[Melinda]

27. Maybe we should constantly kick pro-Dean & like threads -just bury the neg

:think:

What have we come to? :(

[edzontar]

30. It is a sad day on DU...I cannot fathom what has taken place here today.

Yes, let us kick the Dean threads..that is one solution.

I just don't know what to do or say after what I've seen here today....

[Melinda]

38. Remember when DU was anti-bashing our own?

If memory serves, Skinner used to have a welcome to that affect... The "Big Tent" message about dems and progressives and that this was a place to come together for US, not for Bush* and his ilk...

Those guidleines seems to be missing - anyone know where they are?

[edzontar]

63. Can't find 'em....maybe they slipped away quietly....

Into the cold dark night.

[Scott Lee]

12. "Stop them" movements are reactionary

Reactionism is the bedrock of conservatism.

Tic - tac - toe.

[drfemoe]

45. he-ha-ho

thanks for that.

[T Roosevelt]

13. Agreed

Why can't the other candidates win on their own merits? Why do they (and/or their supporters) have to stop a single candidate? Why not push more why the others are better?

Definitely counterproductive and pro-* in nature (and likely in outcome).

[alwynsw]

21. Although it would be nice to see only positive threads

politics in this country, nor any other that I am aware of work that way.

A completely clean election wherein all comments in all forums are purely positive merit comments for the candidate in question is a pipe dream. It's nearly impossible to state differences between candidates without casting the opponent's positions or actions in a negative light.

It's the old "Here's why I'm better" formula.

[mzmolly]

40. This isn't about a negative Dean thread, this is again about stopping

one of our own. There is no Stop Clark movement, no stop Kerry movement, no stop Lieberman movement ... This is not about discourse, its about undermining a chance at beating Bush.

[alwynsw]

50. In order to succeed, the heart of each candidates

campaigning is about stopping the other candidates. Otherwise, he/she loses if the opponent(s) are not stopped.

edited for spelling

[mzmolly]

59. In order to succeed we need to freely allow the democratic process.

:)

[alwynsw]

65. And these tactics are a part of the process

The earlest I can recall reading of is the labeling of Linclon as "The Originall Gorilla" - quite harsh in that time - by his fellow Republicans during the campaign leading up to the convention.

It's not a new tactic. It may be distasteful, but it is part of the process.

[mzmolly]

76. I disagree.

:) I dont recall such an effort in recent history ?

[not systems]

16. Is some inflammatory rhetoric...

now more equal than other inflammatory rhetoric.

I don't understand what the line between good and bad posts
is in this case.

"I'm not a Clark support but I admire the man."

give me a break.

[RPG-7]

17. it's really too bad..

I'm not big on Dean but he's the frontrunner. If everyone got behind him now he could save a monstrous amount of money that he has to spend now because Democrats are running Dean=Bin Ladin ads.

I know people like their pet candidates too much to show some unity but with W not having to spend any money for a primary and sucking up cash at record breaking rates he is going to be outspending Dean (or whoever) at probably something like 5:1 ratio.

[Jerseycoa]

29. Can we have some voting?

Before we have a frontrunner we all have to rally around? Is it too much to ask? You know, January, February, March? That will leave the front runner plenty of time to kick George Bush's ass. I'm beginning to wonder why we have primaries at all if we are supposed to think we don't have to have a competition among primary candidates. This is as sick as it gets.

:dem:

[mzmolly]

41. Yes I prefer voting to concerted efforts to stop the democratic process.

:)

[Frederic Bastiat]

18. Not until I know what's in Dean's sealed records

[not systems]

24. What about what is in Bush's sealed records?

Locked up at the Bush Sr library.

Why should Dean open his records when Bush didn't
open his, you are not for unilateral disarmament
in the battle for the whitehouse are you?

Roll over boy and let daddy Bush rub your belly?

They play legal hard ball Dean should also.

[AWD]

28. People like that....

...are not interested in Bush's sealed records.

they're more willing to let Bush do whatever he wants, because they'd rather pout and whine.

[Frederic Bastiat]

47. So Dean is following W's playbook

touché

[mzmolly]

51. No Dean is following the process most Governors follow upon leaving

office. Touche'

[not systems]

53. Look what opening records did for Dukakis.

If you really want to lose next fall demand that
whoever the canidate is open their records well
Bush and Cheney fight like badgers to keep thier
records sealed.

You don't go to a gun fight with a knife.

[Khephra]

35. The "Stop the Dean movement" is a new low for DU

I really don't know what to say. I'm really flabbergasted.

[alwynsw]

42. My last post on this thread - I hope

It's getting tiresome repeating my point in different ways.

Debate for and against candidates is what makes the process work - mostly. Some choose the "for" route, others choose "against". Both are legitimate electioneering practices, whether we like it or not.

[mzmolly]

44. My last reply to you. No one here has ever suggested we not debate

the candidates. It has been suggested that we not help Bush win in 2004 by "stopping" the Democratic process. :hi:

[Melinda]

49. Politics.

I wish Skinner had never stated his "preferences".

I'll no longer contribute to DU financially (for myself or as a secret sponsor) and I'm here less and less.... and less. :(

[bearfartinthewoods]

67. what a totally ungracious thing to say!!

that of all people, Skinner, who has devoted a good part of his life over the last years to providing this board should be deprived of voicing his opinion here.

UNFREAKING BELIEVABLE

btw...iirc, Skinner did not announce a preference. he hasn't decided yet, like 70% of the damn party. and for that "sin" you criticize him!

[edzontar]

58. Coming from such an esteemed poster as yourself...

I take your comments very seriously indeed.

[drfemoe]

52. This is not going to hurt

Howard Dean. The reason he is the frontrunner is because he does not stoop to the tactics of his oppoenents and their supporters.

According to this group.. they don't have anyone else in mind .. just NOT Dean .. How productive is that? The first primary is in 35 days.
New group:
"The media, Al Gore, and a host of other entities and institutions are trying to cram Howard Dean down our throats as the nominee of the Democratic Party.

His lack of charisma, his lack of foreign policy experience, his arrogance, and his misrepresented past will make us lose miserably against George W. Bush.

This group does not care who you support, it does not seek to sway you to any particular candidate, its purpose is to stop Howard Dean. IF we can unite and build a coaltion to stop this man then we can have a fair and worthwhile debate on who will lead us based upon the other contenders.

If they have the power, than so do we and it is time to use it. "
(all of this to be accomplished in 35 days I guess)

I say let them dig their own grave. Too bad they don't want to back a winner instead.

[littlejoe]

54. This is unmittigated treachery

No self-respecting democrat would take part in any campaign to stop another candidate.

[LuminousX]

55. I'm curious as to how a Stop Clark movement would be met

or a Stop Kerry movement.

Oh, I guess neither needs a movement against them because they are stopping themselves without any outside assistance.

Still, think about it. If you are a Kerry supporter, working hard to promote him and you come to DU, a place that while filled with partisan efforts, and find the Admin stating a vague support for an opposition candidate, and a Stop Kerry movement - what would your feel? Would you feel DU is a haven for Democratic efforts or would he feel that it has become too politicized against your candidate?

I personally am considering suggesting a Dean voter boycott for a day or two. Something has to be done to bring things up from the lowest common denominator... the crass attacking. I know, though, the boycott wouldn't work. Boycotts hardly ever work. It is nice to fantasize abou though.

[mzmolly]

60. I agree, I'm ready for a boycott. The bias is apparent and

undermines the process.

[edzontar]

61. In any event, it is fair to consider

Witholding funds or any other support from any sites or organizations that promote or dedicate space for the recruitment of members to a shadowy "Stop the Dem frontrunner" organization.

The "Stop Dean Site" and its cousins are just the sort of sleaze that you would THINK anyone at DU would do anyhtng in their power to oppose.

[littlejoe]

56. This thread doesn't need any people who disagree

with Dean's platform to be debating with any of us. This thread was posted to stop a stop Dean movement. We aren't interested in anything else on this thread. Understand?

[bearfartinthewoods]

68. oh yes...and the restraint the dean camp should in the other thread

was so admirable.

the other thread didn't bother me a bit. i endorse the process and will work to stop anyone or anything that seeks to abreviate it.

this thread, however with it's shady threats against DU is another matter indeed.

i hope it stands for days so people see the true nature of things.

[Jerseycoa]

73. Link?

Can somebody please supply a link to the "other thread." I would like to read it. Thanks.

[MarkTwain]

62. BRAVO for the SDM !

... a new high for DU evidencing that not everyone on this board subscribes to "group think" or is easily and blindly led down the path to electoral oblivion and GOP wingnut, fundamentalist victory.

Dr. Dean is a good man. Just not the man for this time in the country's history or against the Rove/DimSon Juggernaut.

Sorry.

[mzmolly]

78. Stop Dean is an example of 'group think'

And Dr Dean is THE MAN for this country right NOW. :)

[sujan]

64. Stop Dean movement

is started by a guy who supports clark.

They are getting desperate.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scipan]

72. expose people behind it

I think the way to stop this kind of thing is to expose the people behind it.

Rage Against the Machine says he doesn't endorse Clark, but he is the co-director of GW Students for Clark http://www.gwforclark.com/contact.html. I would argue for a DU rule that boots people who lie--at least if they do it repeatedly. I am talking about blatant, provable lies, especially when they misrepresent themselves, but also blatant, out-and-out lies of what a candidate has said.

Same with the Progressive Values organization that is running the Rovian anti-Dean ads in Iowa. I want to know who funds them. I would hope the officers -- the Gephardt fundraiser, the president who contributed $2000 to Gephardt, and the former Kerry staffer -- are constantly pressured about it. At least that exposes them for being secretive, and they may just stop and go away if they get too much bad publicity. Write letters to the editor.

[not systems]

74. Good find.

RATM was less than believable from the start.

[arewethereyet]

77. stop it, I'm gettig dizzy !

!