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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 01:49 PM
Original message
Pat Buchanan on MSNBC pumping up Dean, trashing Kerry..
just what Karl Rove ordered. The GOP does not want George W. Bush to face John Kerry. Buchanan's talking point, asserted pointedly at the end of the Press and Buchanan "analysis" of Dean's foreign policy speech, was as important as his building up Howard Dean's candidacy.

Don't let any of these GOP talking heads fool you. Rove and the GOP thugs prefer Dean as the Democratic nominee.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. So do most voters. Isn't that the definition of a winner?
I mean except for in year 2000....
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. In latest Newsweek poll, Dean got 24% from the 357 Registered Dems and
Dem leaning Independents, with error rate of +/-6 from poll taken December 11-12.

Since when is 24% "most voters?"--less than one-quarter of Democratic voters support Dean as their nominee. Let's get real.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. By that statement
No Democrat has the support of most Democrats.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Exactly. It is way too early to annoint the Dem nominee for President...
the primary will make their decisions and the race is remains fluid. Things could change for Dean by the time of the Iowa primary.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. Then he won't win the nomination
and you have nothing to worry about.
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. If Buchanan is FOR Dean...
Yikes. Kerry looks better all the time.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Even a blind pig finds an acorn sometimes.
The fact that Buchanan may have spoken favorably about Dean is no reason to reject Dean. Buchanan opposed the Iraq war, that is why is probably what he likes about Dean. Face it, Kerry supporters, Kerry's message, whatever it is, just isn't catching on with Democratic voters. And Kerry hurts himself every time he trashes Dean.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. "Kerry's message, whatever it is..."
So, Kerry opens his mouth and everyone has already left the room apparently? :shrug:
There is may be a personal animosity towards Kerry, but he's right on all the issues for those who will stick around to listen.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yea, he rightfully pointed out Dean's consistancy on Iraq and Kerrys
flip flopping. So is Kerry for the war again?
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Kerry has not changed his position on the war in Iraq.
And Pat Buchanan, or anyone else saying so, doesn't make it true.

Howard Dean cynically used the vote on the Iraq resolution--a vote he did not have to put on record--to make headway with the anti-war. politically active left--without, I might add, having attended one anti-war rally. Dean is a hypocrite.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. It's called "principled" not cynical...
Cynical is what I would reserve for someone who voted for the war, gave several condiditions that must be met for him to support invading, bitched like hell as Bush broke every one of them, then went along with the war anyway and bitched when things started going wrong and then take credit for everything that goes right.

You know... Kind of like Kerry.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Criticism from a man who did not have to put his position on record...
Edited on Mon Dec-15-03 02:18 PM by flpoljunkie
isn't worth a whole lot, in my opinion.

Kerry's position has been and continues to be principled. Dean's position is just about trying to win the hearts and minds of the anti-war, primary voting Dems.
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. principled....
you mean like when Kerry attacked Afirmative Action in an effort to be seen as more centrist in his effort to get the number two spot under Clinton....you mean that kind of political opportunism?

If you dont believe me....read this:

The Boston Globe
April 5, 1992, Sunday, City Edition
By Robert A. Jordan, Globe Staff

Kerry alienates many black supporters

Perhaps the speech was prompted by a political talk-show host who suggested that US Sen. John Kerry was "too liberal" to be a vice-presidential running mate for Arkansas Gov. Bill Clinton.

And, as a result, Kerry decided to move himself politically from the left to center-right. Or perhaps it was simply a legitimate effort by Kerry to put the issue in proper perspective.

--snip—

Virtually every advocate of affirmative action and civil rights, as well as black supporters of Kerry himself, viewed Kerry's speech as an effort not to defend affirmative action, but to pander to the more conservative element of our society, including staunch critics of affirmative action.

Or his attack on Welfare when faced with a tough Repug challanger...like this article illustrates:

The Boston Herald
September 22, 1995 Friday SECOND EDITION
By ANDREW MIGA

Activists rap Kerry over welfare vote

WASHINGTON - Bay State human services advocates yesterday accused Sen. John Kerry of turning his back on the poor by voting in favor of the GOP's sweeping welfare reform bill.

"Sen. Kerry has sunk to the lowest level of political expediency," said Betsy Wright, head of the Massachusetts Human Services Coalition. "He's abandoned the children of Massachusetts."

--snip—

Wright charged that Kerry, a Democrat, backed the GOP plan in hopes of defusing criticism from Weld that he's too soft on welfare recipients.

"Kerry has one eye on Weld," said Wright. "It's disgusting. He's afraid to take the heat from Weld. Activists are horrified by Kerry."

Seems like the good Senator will trow anyone under the bus if he thinks it'll get him elected....

so much for principles.....try spending your time building up your guy instead of attack other people's candidates...your blood pressure will thank you...

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. So is Kerry for or against the Iraq war...
I'm confused.
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Now we're back to prowar/antiwar...
And we all know that neither Dean nor Kerry is either of those.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. True, but I was discussing this war specifically.
:shrug:
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Dean is on record:

Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said if Saddam is shown to have atomic or biological weapons, the United States must act. But he also said Bush must first convince Americans that Iraq has these weapons and then prepare them for the likelihood American troops would be there for a decade.

August 12, 2002

President Bush would have to meet two criteria before he ordered a U.S. invasion, Dean said Sunday during a presidential campaign trip to New Hampshire.

"The first is, he has to show the American people, as President Kennedy did in the Cuban missile crisis, that there’s evidence (Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein) has either atomic or biological weapons and can deliver them," Dean said. "So far he has not made that case. So where’s the threat? We need to see that evidence."

...

"We also have to be honest about how long we’re going to be there. We’re going to have American troops on the ground in Iraq for 10 years," Dean said. "If we’re not honest about that, then I don’t think the president ought to have the right to make the decision to go into a war with Iraq because the American people ought to be told ahead of time what that’s going to mean to us."

August 21, 2002

“He needs to first make the case and he has not done that,” Dean said. “He has never come out and said Saddam (Hussein) has the atomic bomb and we need to deal with him.”

...

"He needs to be forthright with the American people about what this means," said Dean. "If we go into Iraq, we’re going to have to stay for probably five or 10 years."

He warned that simply deposing Hussein is not enough. The United States would have to plant the seeds of democracy in a country with little such tradition, he said.

"Americans are going to have to die and a lot of money is going to be spent," said Dean.

...

"The American people need to be told the truth up front," said Dean. "It’s not going to Afghanistan and it’s not going to be the last Iraqi war. If we don’t stay there and remold the country into a democratic country, which will take 10 years, then it’s stupid to go in there."

September 04, 2002


"There's substantial doubt that is as much of a threat as the Bush administration claims." Though Americans might initially rally to military action, 'that support will be very short-lived once American kids start coming home in boxes,' Mr. Dean warned Wednesday as he campaigned in Iowa.

September 06, 2002

"The president has to do two things to get the country's long-term support for the invasion of Iraq," Dean said in a telephone interview. "He has done neither yet." Dean said President Bush needs to make the case that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, such as atomic or biological weapons, and the means to use them. Bush also needs to explain to the American public that a war against Iraq is going to require a long commitment.

September 18, 2002

Dean, in an interview Tuesday, said flatly that he did not believe Bush has made "the case that we need to invade Iraq." Dean said he could support military action, even outside the U.N., if Bush could "establish with reasonable credibility" that Hussein had the capacity to deliver either nuclear or biological weapons against the United States and its allies. But he said that the president, to this point, hadn't passed that test.

"He is asking American families to sacrifice their children, and he's got to have something more than, 'This is an evil man,' " Dean said. "There are a lot of evil people running countries around the world; we don't bomb every one of them. We don't ask our children to die over every one of them."

September 18, 2002

"I think most of the focus on Iraq is because of their terrible record on the economy and health care," said Dean, a Democrat. "I think there’s a healthy amount of domestic politics involved."

September 25, 2002

"There’s no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies," Dean said on CBS’ "Face The Nation" via satellite from Austin, Texas.

"The question is, ‘Is he an immediate threat?’ The president has not yet made the case for that. I think it may very well be, particularly with the news that we’ve had over the weekend, that we are going to end up in Iraq. But I think it’s got to be gone about in a very different way."

...

While Dean said the United States must defend itself unilaterally if necessary, he emphasized that now is the time to be getting the cooperation of the United Nations Security Council and U.S. allies.

"It’s not good for the future of the foreign policy of this country to be the big bully on the block and tell people we’re going to do what we want to do," he said.

September 29, 2002

Kerry said he expects Democrats will overwhelmingly approve the pending Senate resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. "I think there will be a significantly more unified front than in the last Gulf War," he said.

But Dean said there are significant differences among Democrats on the issue, and suggested a political motive for presidential moves toward war.

"What’s the imminent danger?" he asked. "The president has never said, and all the intelligence reports say there isn’t any. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that some of this has to do with the midterm elections."
October 6, 2002


"The president approached it in exactly the wrong way. The first thing I would have done is gone to United Nations Security Council and gone to our allies and say, "Look, the UN resolutions are being violated. If you don't enforce them, then we will have to." The first choice, however, is to enforce them through the UN and with our allies. That's the underlying approach."

October 31st, 2002

"I would like to at least have the president, who I think is an honest person, look us in the eye and say, 'We have evidence, here it is.' We've never heard the president of the United States say that. There is nothing but innuendo, and I want to see some hard facts."

December 22, 2002


Appearing on the CBS news show "Face the Nation," Dean, who is running for president, said President Bush had not made the case to go to war against Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.

...

"I do not believe the president has made the case to send American kids and grandkids to die in Iraq. And until he does that, I don't think we ought to be going into Iraq. So I think the two situations are fairly different. Iraq does not possess nuclear weapons. The best intelligence that anybody can find, certainly that I can find, is that it will be at least a year before he does so and maybe five years."

January 05, 2003

"I personally believe hasn’t made his case"

January 10, 2003

Dean, meanwhile, said he would not have voted for the Iraq resolution, though he is not against the use of military force if necessary.

"The problem with the resolution on Iraq is the president has never made his case," he said.

January 23, 2003

"These are the young men and women who will be asked to risk their lives for freedom. We certainly deserve more information before sending them off to war."

January 29, 2003

"The secretary of state made a compelling case for what the American people already know: Saddam Hussein is a deceitful tyrant who must be disarmed," said Dean. "But I heard little today that leads me to believe that there is an imminent threat warranting unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq."

...

"I am not in the no-way camp. Definitely not. I think Saddam must be disarmed. The problem I have is that I have a deep reluctance to attack a country unilaterally without a pretty high standard of proof," he said. "I am hoping to resolve this peacefully.

"To say you are in the not-yet camp implies that war is inevitable and I don’t think that is true," he added.

Dean did say he is not completely opposed to a U.S. attack on Iraq: "There are circumstances under which I would attack Iraq unilaterally, but we are very far from those circumstances."

February 5, 2003

"Terrorism around the globe is a far greater danger to the United States than Iraq. We are pursuing the wrong war,"

February 5, 2003

"We ought not to resort to unilateral action unless there is an imminent threat to the United States. And the secretary of State and the president have not made a case that such an imminent threat exists.''

February 12, 2003

In an interview, Dean said that he opposed the congressional resolution and remained unconvinced that Hussein was an imminent threat to the United States. He said he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approved the move and backed it with action of its own.

"They have to send troops," he said.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/5236485.htm">Feb. 22, 2003

"Well, I think that the United Nations makes it clear that Saddam has to disarm, and if he doesn't, then they will disarm him militarily. I have no problem with supporting a United Nations attack on Iraq, but I want it to be supported by the United Nations. That's a well-constituted body. The problem with the so-called multilateral attack that the president is talking about is an awful lot of countries, for example, like Turkey-- we gave them $20 billion in loan guarantees and outright grants in order to secure their permission to attack. I don't think that's the right way to put together a coalition. I think this really has to be a world matter. Saddam must be disarmed. He is as evil as everybody says he is. But we need to respect the legal rights that are involved here. Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them.

February 27, 2003

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said Friday he remains unimpressed with President Bush’s argument for attacking Iraq and he called for a standdown of military force.

"We ought not to go attack unilaterally or preemptively," Dean said. "We have a right to strike against those countries that pose an imminent threat and I don’t think Saddam possess an imminent threat."

March 8, 2003

The key is there has to be an imminent danger in order to go into Iraq.
March 9, 2003

MR. RUSSERT: In an interview with Roll Call, the Capitol Hill newspaper, in January, you said this, "In a meeting...with 'Roll Call' editors and reporters, Dean said this if President Bush presented evidence that Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction, 'Then I'd go back to the U.N. and get a new resolution that either disarms in 60 days or we go in.'"

Isn't that exactly what the president did in November? He went to the United Nations, made the case, and it's now been 120 days and Saddam Hussein is still not cooperating.

MR. DEAN: See, I don't think the president has made the case. I think what the president has made a reasonable case for is that Saddam is moving weapons around in terms of biologicals and chemicals, perhaps. He has not made a case for the three things that I think require or enable us to invade unilaterally or pre-emptively or preventively, as we are now calling it. He has not made the case for Saddam possessing nuclear weapons. He has not made the case that he has any kind of a credible nuclear program. And he has not made the case that Saddam is giving weapons of mass destruction to the terrorists. If he were doing any of those things, I think we would have a right to defend ourselves, and we should go in. That case has not been made, either by the president or Secretary Powell, and I don't think that we ought to go in, if we don't want to use the word unilaterally, than preventively or pre-emptively.

...

MR. RUSSERT: If he hadn't disarmed within a year, would that be too long?

MR. DEAN: Well, again, Tim, I prefer very strongly that the United Nations make this decision about disarming Saddam. I said to Mort Kondracke, I think we can get a resolution, and I hope we will get a resolution that says 60 days, but it's the United Nations resolution that's important here.

March 9, 2003

What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the President’s unilateral intervention in Iraq?

March 15th, 2003

"I went to Parris Island so I could look into the faces of the kids who will be sent to Iraq," Dean told a cheering lunchtime crowd in Concord, N.H. "We should always support our kids, but I do not support this president's policies and I will continue to say so."

March 18, 2003

"Anti-war Presidential candidate Howard Dean said he will not silence his criticism of President Bush's Iraq policy now that the war has begun, but he will stop the 'red meat' partisan attacks.

"No matter how strongly I oppose the President's policy, I will continue to support American troops who are now in harms way," said Dean

March 20, 2003

While Dean said he was staunchly opposed to the war and planned to continue criticizing it, he also said the United States should keep fighting, putting him at odds with other antiwar activists who have been calling for an immediate cease-fire.

''We're in. We don't have any choice now. But this is the wrong choice,'' Dean said. ''There will be some who think we should get out immediately, but I don't think that's an easy position to take.''

March 23, 2003

"I’m certainly not going to change my message," Dean said. "I don’t see how I could. I think the war is a problem, in terms of our long-term foreign policy."

"What I’ve said is, I’m not going to criticize the president in a partisan way or in a personal way during the war," said Dean. "But for me to change my policy on that now wouldn’t make any sense. I haven’t altered my view about this."

March 24, 2003

On day one of a Dean Presidency, I will reverse this attitude. I will tear up the Bush Doctrine. And I will steer us back into the company of the community of nations where we will exercise moral leadership once again.

April 17th, 2003
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. or better yet...
showing spine when he knows that the vote comes after the general election...like he did in 1991, after....I might add...the Iraqis invaded another country and were at full strength....Kerry wanted to give sanctions time then....

fast forward to 2002....when the vote comes before the general election...suddenly ol John thinks invading Iraq is just great....hey...we all trusted Bush's word...right?!

Let's see Kerry release his Senate correspondence prior to and after his vote to see just how responsive to the voters' preferences....

So my question is....why did Kerry think it was bad in 1991 but doubleplusgood in 2002 to invade Iraq?

And people say Dean flip-flops...

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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. No contradiction here. In both cases, Kerry urged exhausting diplomacy..
before the country went to war.

Making war a true "last resort" requires the exhaustion of all diplomatic means--something I feel we can all agree that Bush did not do before he launched this latest war in Iraq.

The UNMOVIC inspectors implored Bush to give them 30 more days. Bush said, "F*ck inspections. We're going to war!"
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. except...
he stood up to the use of force in 1991...when Iraq was actually raping Kuwait....

But in 2002 he voted to allow Bush the right to use force....hence the name Iraq War Resolution...

and now he is taking credit for his vote in the removal of Saddam...

So which is it?!

How could anyone suggest that in the led up to that vote that they believed that Bush was going to honor any such deal?!

If that's so...it says alot more about Kerry's foreign policy prowess than anything else...
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. You can't fault Dean for not voting
when he wasn't in a position to vote. I believe he did publicly state his position against the war before the war started. How does the fact that he maintains that position make him a hypocrite?
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TeacherCreature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wake up to the facts
Pat is a long time isolationist. That is why he prefers Dean. Don't worry he won't be voting for any democrat.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Whoever thought Buchanan would vote for Dean!
He is a good Rethug--armed with his daily talking points.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Actually Buchanan doesn't toe the Repuke line
He ran on the reform ticket last time and in 1992 he helped to cripple Poppy Bush by challenging him in the Repuke primaries - thus making it easier for Clinton to win. It is true that Buchanan started out as a Republican, but what does that prove? Strom Thurmond and Ronald Reagan started out as Democrats. What evidence is there since 1992 that Buchanan is a good Republican?
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Ask yourself the question. Why would Buchanan pump up Dean & trash JK?
Why would Buchanan make sure that he got in a last minute hit to John Kerry?

The answer is that John Kerry would make a more formidable and credible opponent against Bush.

Buchanan loves Dubya's pandering to his right wing base--the same base that Buchanan has courted--who are now firmly in Dubya's camp, thereby eviscerating any chance for Buchanan to run again.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Why would Buchanan "pump up" Dean?
Because he agrees with him on the war? Seems logical to me. There is zero evicence that Buchanan is carrying water for Bush. Buchanan has never shilled for either of the Bushes. Why would he start now?
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. To do his part to help Dean win the Democratic nomination...
Since he cannot run himself because the core of his past support (Bush's right wing base) is now supporting Dubya.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. To do his part to help Dean win the Democratic nomination...
Since he cannot run himself because the core of his past support (Bush's right wing base) is now supporting Dubya. Remember Buchanan first worked in the Nixon White House. He is a seasoned politico.
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Nonsense, it's over for John
The only question that remains: is Kerry ABB?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. We will never fight the genius of Karl Rove
Give up now.
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