This Dean supporter is growing weary of the attacks on Gen. Clark.

[Padraig18]

I am familiar with all of the so-called 'dirt' in Gen. Clark's resume, and frankly, most of it is either blown ALL out of proportion or is an outright fabrication consisting of one or two selected 'facts' strung together by massive amounts of speculation and innuenedo. When one examines the duties and responsibilities of the Chief Executive, Gen. Clark's experience and track-record more than support his contention that he would be qualified to be President. I believe him to be a genuine progressive, as many of his initiatives and programs in the Army demonstrate (pro-active spousal-abuse intervention, increased funding for schools, etc.).

While he remains my 2nd choice, that in no way means that I find him an 'inferior' candidate; he is well-qualified to be President and I would and could enthusiastically support him, were he to gain our party's nomination next November.

[La_Serpiente]

1. Are you talking about the attacks

that the right-wingers have been repeating? Yeah, they are just looking for excuses.

[Padraig18]

3. Yes, and...

... seeing certain supporters of other candidates, including fellow Dean supporters, repeat these same RNC fax-blast talking points.

[PSR40004]

16. As a pro dean guy who doesn't like clark.....

I'm leaning dean and have admitted that before, I've also said I don't like clark but I have never attacked him nor do I think that's a good position for any dem to take.

[LuminousX]

25. As a Dean voter who despises Clark

I agree that the attacks on Clark are pointless and hurtful to the party as a whole. I even defended Clark against the spurious Time Travel claim by finding the author of that article's correction.

Of course we are told that these attacks are normal and it is okay to try to damage the candidates as much as possible during the primary season. *shrug* I guess I'm not cut out for active politics and should revert back to the role as observor. A party that cannibalizes itself is not a party that will last very long.

[Tom Rinaldo]

43. Specific thanks to you are called for also

I of course thank Paddy for starting this positive thread, but your attitude is equally positive. You out and out don't like Clark, but you won't do the Republican's work for them. You strongly back your guy which is what all of us should concentrate on, that's what the Primary season is about. Fight hard, fight fair, never lose sight of the big picture. Your sense of perspective is much appreciated.

[Padraig18]

68. Yes, proper perspective is greatly appreciated.

I realize that there are many here who do not like Gov. Dean, and that is perfectly understandable and acceptable; where that dislike 'crosses the line', if you will, is when it becomes destructive not simply to Gov. Dean's candidacy, but to the Democratic party as a whole.

[FrenchieCat]

2. Thanks....

For your kindness.

I'm just worried about those 5 senate democratic seats in the South.
We can not lose all of those!

[Padraig18]

5. YW; I am worried about them, too.

I'm not entirely convinced that any of the 'top-tier' candidates would neccessarily have coat tails long enough to save those seats, however. As Tip O'Neill said, "All politics is local", and I personally believe that issues within the various states themselves will have a far greater impact on whether or not the Democratic candidate wins a given seat than will our choice of a nominee.

[dobak]

80. I thought Wellstone said that?

:shrug:

[caledesi]

4. Same here. Dean supporter, but tired of the trashing of Clark.

My dream team: Dean/Clark.

[Padraig18]

6. Mine, too.

I could also swallow my personal disappointment and wholeheartedly and enthusiastically support a 'Clark/Dean' ticket next year! I frankly think that Dean supporters like you and I are by far the majority, and I also believe that the vast majority of Clark supporters would also support Gov. Dean should he gain the nomination, the two small but extremely vocal groups holding contrary views here at DU nonwithstanding. Have you noticed how many Dean supporters who post here mention that they actually like General Clark? I think we occasionally lose sight of that in the ongoing flame-wars.

:hi:

[ClintonTyree]

8. Add another name..................

I'm a Deanie but would have no problem with Gen. Clark in either the top or bottom slot. Kerry as well, Gep.....not so hot on. Dennis is a nice guy, but not Presidential timbre. The rest are all good people (save one, whose initials are Joe Lieberman) and I would support ANY of these candidates (even Lieberman, ugh) if nominated.
We have to start coming together here and damn soon. The Repigs will try their own smear tactics and it's best we gird our loins for those attacks.

[GiovanniC]

29. Add my name too

A Clark supporter who wouldn't mind seeing a Clark/Dean ticket... and would support Dean should he win the nomination (expecially if it turned out to be a Dean/Clark ticket).

[w13rd0]

9. I tire of the flame wars...

...I'm trying to stay positive. I saw Gen Clark on the Daily Show the other day, and he seems like a genuinely likable fellow. I'm sure I could find as many reasons to justify a vote for him in the general election as I could (and will if such is the case), no MUST, find regarding any of the Democratic nominees.

[AnnitaR]

7. Wow, what a nice post to see this morning!

It's a welcome thing in all the madness here lately.

I know the primaries are tough, but some things are getting out of hand. I posted earlier about that Dean attack ad going too far. That's the kind of crap Rove pulls, "playing the 9/11-Osama card". We should never stoop to their levels. Their are other ways to highlight the differences between the candidates.

We must remember that the most important thing is getting that Evil Little Man out of our White House!

I will work tirelessly for any of our candidates that get the nomination. Okay, working hard for Holy Joe would be hard but... I'd suck it up to get Chimpy out!

[Padraig18]

10. EXACTLY!

I will, as you put it, 'suck it up' and support ANY of our 9 candidates, because the object of the exercise is to evict * and his evil cabal from the People's House!

:thumbsup::dem:

[ClintonTyree]

11. I think many of us..............

try to avoid the flamefests, so our names are seldom seen regarding political nominee topics. We're here, we're Democrats, and will support ANY candidate who opposes Bush.
We're just not the combative types that are so prevalent lately.

[Padraig18]

70. "ABB" sume it up for me. n/t

[hlthe2b]

12. THANK YOU!!!! Villifying qualified competing DEMS is NO

way to engender added support for your own candidate. I truly appreciate Padraig18's wisdom here. I like Dean AND Clark. May the best candidate win, but MORE IMPORTANT, let us boot Bush out of the WH, whether with any particular DUer's FIRST or SECOND choice of candidate!

[Nlighten1]

13. I couldn't agree more!

All the attacks on everyone (except LIEberman and Gephardt) are getting OOOOOOOLLLLD!

[jonnyblitz]

14. This supporter of nobody yet is tired of the much more virulent

attacks (to the point of lunacy)of supporters of other candidates on your candidate which I see as waaaaay more prevelent. I guess its all a matter of perception. :shrug:

[Romberry]

19. You got it.

Dean supporters on DU started out months ago just trying to say positive things about Dean. They were attacked mercilessly over and over again, day after day, week after week. I suspect some of them just got tired of it and started fighting back.

DU is still filled day after day with threads that do nothing more than pass along the latest Dean bashing. You can't even start a positive thread about Dean without soon finding it filled with attacks.

I'll support Clark if he is the nominee but it will be in spite of his supporters here on DU, not because of them.

[edzontar]

27. I agree. I like Clark, but am disappointed by his DU advocates

Who seem to be willing to throw any kind of mud and use any kind of dishoinest tactic to push their man.

My presumption is that of the more obnoxious supporters are not long-time Deams, but one-man zealots.

[jonnyblitz]

56. yup. I remember when Clark officially announced.

We had a huge influx of combative Clark supporting newbies that just trashed anybody that dare post an article critical or questioning of the General and civility went downhill from there. I used to think some Dean supporters were a bit much but they pale in comparison.

[Jerseycoa]

67. This stands for me, too

Only the other way around. I would say I'll support Dean "if he is the nominee but it will be in spite of <some of> his supporters here on DU, not because of them."

I haven't been here as long as most, but my experience is, "You can't even start a positive thread about <Clark> without soon finding it filled with attacks."

There are days it turns me from a rational, decent human being into a raving, meanspirited one, yesterday was one, and I regret that very much.

On edit: changed brackets

[Padraig18]

69. We're all human.

Some days the vitriol becomes God-awful and, like Popeye, we've 'Had all we can stand, and (we) can't stands no more!', so we pop off. :)

[w4rma]

15. Good post. I agree. (n/t)

[Rowdyboy]

17. Thanks, Paddy

The fact is, MOST Dean supporters would willingly back Clark and MOST Clark supporters would willingly back Dean. It's those flaming assholes on both sides that attack mindlessly that drive us apart.

Feels good knowing there are adults like you in Dean's camp.

[Padraig18]

20. You, and everyone else are most welcome.

I have 'issues' with every candidate, my own included, but all that means is that neither Jesus nor Ghandi (e.g.) are running for POTUS in the Democratic primaries. This absolute villification of candidates who are not our first choice is mindless. Sadly, every candidate has a small, but extremely vocal, core of supporters here at DU who are, in your words, 'flaming assholes'.

Folks, please, please, PLEASE remember that they are a VERY TINY PERCENTAGE of that candidate's overall group of supporters!

:)

[Le Taz Hot]

35. How many times I've posted this

"Folks, please, please, PLEASE remember that they are a VERY TINY PERCENTAGE of that candidate's overall group of supporters!"

Let me highlight a part of that again: "VERY TINY PERCENTAGE." I and MANY other sane DUers have been pleading for sanity for months.
Watching DU go down in flames because of a few juveniles is hard to watch.

I'd like to reiterate (as I have many times) that we CAN police ourselves by not posting to the flamebait threads. Let them die the quick death they deserve. The Admins have provided us with an "ignore" function for individuals AND for threads and I suggest we all use it liberally.

[Petrodollar Warfare]

33. Yes, Dean and/or Clark is fine with most of us, perferrably a combo.

<<<The fact is, MOST Dean supporters would willingly back Clark and MOST Clark supporters would willingly back Dean. It's those flaming assholes on both sides that attack mindlessly that drive us apart.>>

Ditto that.

IMO, people should vote with their conscience in the primaries, keep their chpice to themselves without attacking the other candidates, and unite behind the eventual winner. Way too many zealots and silly hacks on this board, sure to make Rove et al very happy...

[Bundbuster]

18. Thank you Padraig - uplifting

This syndrome which I call candidate cannibalism is a dis-service to everyone, including the candidate which those bashers purport to support. I came here on Thanksgiving ready to post a message about all that we have to be grateful for, and was immediately driven away by a Clark-smearing thread labelling him a "mass murderer" (for about the 50th time by that poster), followed by another pile-on calling Clark a "compulsive/serial liar", again for the umpteenth time by that poster. When will such repetitive character assasins realize that they are doing their own candidate - in this case Dean - much more harm than good, attaching a severely negative stigma whenever people of reason see their shrill venom?

Again, thanks for your message of cooperation and restraint - such sentiments help me to remember that the cannibals on both sides are a minority, but their volume and vitriol often makes it difficult to keep one's perspective.

[sendero]

21. I'm tired ....

... of Dems bashing Dems, period.

[Justice]

52. Agreed!

No more dems bashing dems. Also no more dems supporting republicans (like lieberman's behavior over the last weeks)

Only dems supporting dems.

[Padraig18]

22. Kick for party unity!

:dem:

[Crunchy Frog]

23. Thank you Padraig

This Clark supporter is growing weary of all the attacks on Dean too.

[Padraig18]

24. You're welcome, and thank you, too!

We've got to remember what our common objective is--- the eviction of the unelected fraud from the People's House in November! ANY of our candidates will be a ten-thousandfold improvement over Commander Bunnypants!

:dem:

[mmonk]

26. Thanks Padraig18

[Lefta Dissenter]

28. Hey, THANKS, Pad

What a bright way to start the morning! :toast:

[Padraig18]

30. You're quite welcome! I mean every word.

I think our perceptions tend to get distorted here at DU by the sheer VOLUME of vitriol posted by a handful of fanatical supporters; IOW, we occasionally forget that it is *not* the vast majority of any candidate's supporters 'stirring shit' here, but a distinct minority.

:hi::toast:

[bicentennial_baby]

31. Merci Padraig

Thanks for your words...

:yourock:

[Padraig18]

32. Most Dean supporters feel as I do; we are *Democrats* first, and...

... Dean supporters second. You're quite welcome. :hi:

[eileen_d]

34. Thank you - you state your case very well

most of it is either blown ALL out of proportion or is an outright fabrication consisting of one or two selected 'facts' strung together by massive amounts of speculation and innuenedo

Wow. That is a perfect example of what I see all the time on DU (about all of the candidates, really, but esp. Clark since I have been focusing on him).

And don't forget "guilt-by-Google-association" (i.e. "His name appears in a list underneath Dr. Evil's, therefore Clark is evil!")

:yourock:

[seventhson]

36. Let me be the voice in the Wilderness.

Clark is/was a Lobbyist for the super rich military Corporations and financial interests who back Bush.

I personally believe that he was selected for this mission by the Bushes because Bush was beginning to look vulnerable and they needed someone who would protect their interests in the future and promote their goal of global corporo-fascism.


He is the candidate of the DLC/PNAC/Clinton (Conservative) wing of the Democratic party (although all indications are that Clark was actually a Republican until a short while ago)

His work for the Stephens Group and the surveillance group Axciom and possibly Dyncorp (who finance private militas globally) and other organizations and corporations who lobbied and courted and financed both Bushes (and gave Bush $100,000 in 2001) and the Pentagon -- al of these things make Clark HIGHLY suspect to my politically learned eyes.


I think the real issue is that we need to have all the facts.

We need to know exactly what corporations and organizations he worked for and what he did for them. We need to discuss these issues and dissect them.

Critics of Clark do so because we believe he is a fraudulent candidate, a trojan horse, a republican set up by the Bushes to keep them in power after their exit from DC.

God help us if we are right and you all are wrong and he gets elected or is Dean's VP. Dean would likley become another BFEE victim and global fascism would once again be firmly in place.

I remember how much we all hated LBJ because he was another pimp for the military corporate fascists.

Clark has shown me NOTHING that indicates he has any sense of what it means to believe in Democracy.

Like I did with Bush, I pray that I am wrong about him if he achieves power. He presents well, but I believe it is ALL a well rehearsed act.

His position on Depleted Uranium is unconscionable especially (which is the largest indicator to me, after his Stephens association of being a total sellout to the nuclear/corporate fascists)

You all can praise him and ignore these ties to the Bushes.

I cannot any more than I can ignore Kerry's ties to the Bushes.

YOU favor him.

In good conscience I simply cannot and I urge others not to support him in the primaries either.

I personally may not vote if I have to vote for Clark.

[Lefta Dissenter]

44. ...yawn.............

perhaps you meant this for a different thread. My understanding of Pad's post was that it was a call for party unity. If that's not what you're interested in discussing, there are plenty of other threads that might welcome your stink-bombs.

[MoonAndSun]

37. This Dean supporter agrees 100% with you, Padraig18....

it's tearing us apart here at DU, but I think that in the rest of the country they are still asleep at the wheel and not thinking too much about the 2004 election. They will start waking up during the primaries and we will see how the rest of the Dems feel about our candidates.

Clark is my #2 choice, and will proudly vote for him if he is the candidate.

[Padraig18]

66. He's also my #2 choice.

Frankly, I don't actively DIS-like any of our candidates; Dean is just like a shoe, for me--- he's the best 'fit'. :)

[phillybri]

Great post...Clark's my guy, but Dean is great, too...

n/t

[phillybri]

38. Great post...Clark's my guy, but Dean is great, too...

n/t

[webkev]

39. thanks padraig

:argh:

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

40. Me too

I mean, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but the whole notion that he's a "Manchurian Candidate"-esque mole for the GOP is just silly. The attacks on him are easily as hysterical as the attacks on Dean, and I would be very happy to see a moratorium on that shit.

[Ripley]

41. I agree with you, however...

I'm growing more weary of the attacks on Dean by some of the "so-called" Clark people. Having seen Gen. Clark's actions and words in the debates and in interviews I find it hard to believe he would condone a "Stop-Dean" website.

Who are those people?

[Padraig18]

42. I don't know who they are.

Frankly, the thought has occurred to me on several occasions that they may not be Clark supporters at all, but freeper-like creatures whose sole mission is to drive a wedge between between two campaigns who have far more issues in common than they have differences on issues.

[Ripley]

45. Yes, I think that could be it.

I guess we'll know when a "so-called" Dean group sets up a website called "Stop Clark."

Man, those two together would just kick Smirky all the way to Crawford!! I sincerely hope that one or the other of them accepts the number 2 spot.

[Padraig18]

49. Hands down, it's our strongest ticket, IMHO!

Either combination sends cold chills up Republican spines, my Republican friends tell me, and they're not shitting me when they say it, either. :)

[Tom Rinaldo]

50. If Clark were the front runner, that wouldn't surprise me

But that wouldn't mean that Dean, or the vast majority of Dean supporters had anything to do with it. It's the web age. It doesn't take a movement to launch a web site.

[Tom Rinaldo]

47. Could well be

I strongly back Clark, but from time to time I pop up on a Dean bashing thread and defend him, sometimes from other Clark supporters. I notice it when you or antoher Dean supporter does the same. We all should consider doing that type thing from time to time. It goes a long way towards soothing raw feelings in both camps to get support from across the way. That is how we can best counter attempts by "freeper-like creatures" to drive a wedge between the two campaigns.

[Padraig18]

55. I've not done it as often as I should, lately.

There have been so MANY virulent, vitriolic, content-free 'smear' threads posted about Gov. Dean this past week or so that I have frankly had little time or inclination to do more than fight off the attack, so to speak. As you note, however, I have defended gen. Clark in the past and plan to deliberately set aside some time to do so every week, if not every day.

This insanity has GOT to stop!

[Rowdyboy]

57. And I've been avoiding those threads

The nastiness is infectious and even rational posters get it from time to time. Thank God, the primaries will be over by mid-March and we can get on about our business of trying to retake America. I don't the Dean or Clark bashers will feel very welcome here once one of those men is nominated.

[Padraig18]

59. What really got me to thinking about this:

I posted a thread over the weekend about whether or not it was hypocritical of non-Dean supporters to demand that Gov. Dean unseal his records while at one and the same time supporting candidates who would not release their records, and the only people who agreed were Clark supporters.

It made me think...

[Bridget Burke]

46. Thank you for the sane words.

One thing I've been wondering....

The supporters of whatever candidate who spend more time knocking the other guy down than broadcasting the virtues of their choice--surely, some of them are just carried away by their enthusiasm.

But couldn't some of the more virulent ones be disrupters, here to sow discord among the Democrats?

[CWebster]

48. I would have objections if the attacks

were likening Clark to Saddam or some such rethug tactic, but I take issue with some of his record and economic policies as indicated by Irate Citizen's post in Armsteads thread about centrism:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=928534

Post #11.

[Tom Rinaldo]

51. Policy disputes are more than fair game

People do afterall have to decide on one person to back over all others during the Primaries. Character assasination, hatchet job cut and paste distortions, out right lies, and facts or factoids presented completely out of context are another thing completely.

[Padraig18]

53. I agree.

It is the deliberate distortions and stringing together two or three disparate factiods in some attempt to cobble together a 'reason' for opposing any candidate is lame....

[Jerseycoa]

77. That's it exactly

I certainly have no problem with anybody on earth questioning my candidate's policies, abilities, history, experience, or whatever, and I try to answer sensibly and courteously. It's the copied and pasted diatribes, almost always by the usual suspects, that pop up day in and day out, that wear you down. This week I've had to start copy and pasting my responses, which really turns my stomach, but if you don't, you give up your day chasing this crap around DU. I want people to consider Clark, so I like having the opportunity to back him up to a sincere questioner, but the same lies and distortions already thoroughly addressed in one thread turning up later in the same day or the next day, is what I hate.

I don't think the people who do this are Dean supporters, maybe a very few, but I have seen Dean supporters defend this nonsense, as I am sure you all have seen Clark supporters, maybe a very few, do the same. I just want honest questions to answer and not these planted ones.

Sorry, this is supposed to be a positive thread. :grouphug:

Anyway, thanks Padraig, for starting this thread today. I kind of needed it.



PS-Anyone interested: Wes Clark will be on C-Span 1:30 PM EST, talking about The Hague.

[CMT]

54. I'm tired of attacks on both Dean and Clark

eom.

[Padraig18]

58. Another party-unity kick!

:dem:

[rman]

60. attacks on Clark? oh you mean the anti Dean movement...

-

[Padraig18]

61. Nope

the anti-Dean movement is a distinct minority in the Clark campaign, and I personally believe that Gen. Clark would not approve of that sort of thing at ALL--- he has way too much class for such juvenile crapola...

[Enjolras]

62. I reject outright ....

the anti-Dean movement.

Military generals are a lot like lawyers -- win at any cost. All ambition and no principles. :thumbsdown:

[Padraig18]

63. I seriously doubt that Gen. Clark approves of the 'movement'.

I just don't see it, frankly; he has shown way too much class in this campaign to sanction such a thing. :shrug:

[TLM]

76. Well considering that Clark approved of murdering journalists...

as if they were soldiers... I doubt he'd have much of a problem with his foot soldiers trying to sabotage Dean.

[Bundbuster]

93. Thanks TLM - you prove my point

I'm surprised it took you so long to arrive in this positive post with your unending venom. YOU are the person to whom I was referring to in message #18, calling Clark a mass murderer on Thanksgiving day -didn't you think that the first 49 times you did so would suffice? Do you ever consider the damage you do to Howard Dean and his many supporters here before you constantly stain this board with your poison and hatred? Do you think that the good doctor would approve of your method of "supporting" him? Every message of vitriol which you so angrily spew here drives another potential Dean backer away to other camps. I speak from experience, as a former Dean-leaner driven away from his side by your daily assasinations - their cumulative effect is to make one terminally uncomfortable at the thought of having people like you as campaign comrades.

[Zuni]

64. I agree with this post 100%

n/t

[Padraig18]

65. Thank you!

I'm weary of this whole 'circular firing squad' mentality. :)

[Ebbhead]

71. wonderful post!

Clark is my #1, followed by Dean #2, and count me in as another member of the silent majority that cringes at all the Dean/Clark bashing.

Well worth another :kick:

[Padraig18]

72. I am a 'Deanite' #1, a 'Clarkie' #2, and 'ABB' 3rd, last and always!

:dem:

[Padraig18]

73. Kick

:dem:

[RamboLiberal]

74. I'm sick of the attacks on all the Dem candidates

except for those on Joe Lieberman who I think richly deserves to be attacked. He and Zell should go join the Repugs. In fact I don't understand why the DNC haven't told Zell to get lost.

[TLM]

75. I think he is qualified to be president...

But George Bush Sr was also qualified to be president...

Doesn't mean I'd vote for him.

And can you show me a PROGRESSIVE who thinks that bombing civilians and journalists is OK?

[ajacobson]

79. If you're going to say something like that

you gotta provide the quote.

[TLM]

83. Jesus I've only posted the quote like 500 f-ing times...

Extra! July/August 1999 Legitimate Targets? How U.S. Media Supported War Crimes in Yugoslavia - By Jim Naureckas
NATO justified the bombing of the Belgrade TV station, saying it was a legitimate military target. "We've struck at his TV stations and transmitters because they're as much a part of his military machine prolonging and promoting this conflict as his army and security forces," U.S. General Wesley Clark explained--"his," of course, referring to Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic. It wasn't Milosevic, however, who was killed when the Belgrade studios were bombed on April 23, but rather 20 journalists, technicians and other civilians.

[mzmolly]

78. Oy, I guess it goes both ways. I'm growing wearing of the attacks on both

sides KWIM? ;)

~Peace

[Padraig18]

81. "KWIM"?

That's one I'm not familiar with. :)

[Lefta Dissenter]

82. Know What I Mean? :) (eom)

[stickdog]

84. That's what I call "staying on message."

All of the candidates could learn a thing or two from you.

[Padraig18]

85. What a nice thing to say!

Thanks! :hi::hug:

[JNelson6563]

86. This Dean supporter is also sick of the attacks on Dean

but hey, I guess that's the way it is played.

Julie

On edit: So my meaning is clear, I don't condone or participate in candiate attacks.

[Padraig18]

87. ALL the attacks are getting old.

Discussions of legitimate policy issues is one thing, but these content-free flame fests have gotten way out of hand. :)

[Kool Kitty]

88. Very good post.

This is exactly the way I feel about the candidate-bashing. I have not bashed anyone (Okay, maybe Joe Lieberman, but I'd vote for him, too, if he gets the nomination) and I don't intend to start. I know that the people on this board are a small cross-section of Dems and not the whole mood of the country, but we should still try to be united in what is surely the ultimate goal-regime change in Washington in November, 2004.
This Stop Dean movement is really counterproductive and just downright nasty, in my opinion. I don't think that Clark would approve, and I don't believe a majority of his supporters would, either. I know that I don't.

[Padraig18]

89. Thank you!

:)

[robbedvoter]

90. My hat's off to you!

[Padraig18]

91. I'll take a bow, then.

My 'disgust level' peaked this morning, and I thought it was time for a Dean supporter to speak out on the subject. :)

[Padraig18]

92. Kick

:dem: