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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:16 PM
Original message
Is drunk driving "funny"?
I was just looking at this story in the Lounge, about a guy in Germany who got pulled over by Police and when asked if he'd been drinking replied "20 beers at most"...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=49259&mesg_id=49259&page=

This got me thinking.....To me, driving whilst drunk is an abhorrent crime, yet it doesn't seem to have the stigma attached to it that it deserves. For example, there are many episodes of The Simpsons where Homer drives home drunk, yet the outcomes are always portrayed as hilarious. (OK, I know the Simpsons is a comedy, but the drink driving is the only real criticism I have ever made of my favourite TV show). Drink driving, at least in that program but also in various others, is seen as a relatively "normal" thing to do, it's regarded as "high spirits" rather than an ignominious act with potentially devastating consequences.

To me, driving drunk is akin to waving a loaded gun around in a shopping mall and pulling the trigger at random - it's only sheer good fortune and coincidence if no-one gets killed.

I'm not saying that nobody is ever allowed to make a mistake, and perhaps borderline cases are understandable, but to me if you get in your car when you are totally inebriated then you are immoral, thoughtless, self-centred scum, and you should be jailed. A repeat offence should entail a lifetime driving ban and at least 5 years in jail.

This seems almost self-evident to me, and yet many people of my dad's generation (in the UK) and younger people in Australia and the US (not so noticeably in the UK) seem to think it's perfectly OK to drive drunk, and a "game" to avoid being caught. I've even heard people in line at the Vehicle Licensing offices joking about getting their licences back after "another" ban for drink driving, and to be frank I wanted to punch them in their stupid faces....

What do you think?

P.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sayeth Homer:
"It's funny when it happens to somebody else."
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well..
The actual act is not, but sometimes my buddies and I will make jokes about it. Like if one of us is really smashed and is about to leave we'll maybe say, "We're the fuck are my keys now?" as a joke but it is not serious.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. See, now THAT'S funny!...well to me, anyway.......
Don't get me wrong - I believe you can make jokes about any subject. FOr example, I laughed my ass off at the "paedophile" edition of the comedy Brasseye, which enraged most of the UK. The thing is, I wasn't laughing at paedophilia, which is obscene - the program was satirising the media's treatment of paedophilia by copying tabloid newspaper style.

The same thing applies to drink driving - you can make jokes about the subject without condoning it or believing that the subject itself is funny.......it's not funny to do it, but that doesn't mean you can't make jokes about it.

P.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. Funny?
Yesterday my soap opera list received a message from one member about another who had not been sending any messages for a while.

Seems she went on holiday with her husband and parents. They were happily bicycling down a country road when a drunk driver at 40 mph killed her father and husband instantly. July 17.

Yes. Drunk driving is a laugh a minute. Got anymore jokes like that?

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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. Tell me about it
Edited on Tue Jul-29-03 12:45 AM by Must_B_Free
I have this friend and like, practically everyone she's ever known or been related to has been killed by a drunk driver at one time or another. I shit you not. I could probably get my wife to list all of the incidents.

And yet it is a horrible thing to think that we can laugh at tragedy. How else shall we buffer ourselves from it? ANd who are you to tell me what can be funny. George Carlin does a bit about how rape can be funny and it demonstrates the same point.

So, are you saying we can't sugar coat our greatest pains to make them go down better?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. I'm pretty damn sure I never said that.
But you be certain to have a few yucks at the bar over your friend's last funeral.

Obviously, the things that happen to mere friends are fodder for much merriment.

Why don't you get together with some mothers like my friend Grace, and have a huge giggle over losing a two-year-old to a sloshed Disney World worker who was sure he could make a corner.

There's nothing so funny as watching your son smile at you and then close his eyes and die from internal bleeding without a mark on him. Oh wait, donating his eyes, THAT was funny, wasn't it?

It's good we can have these moments of healing laughter.

And you will have one for the road, won't you?
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Whatever
You just did more disservice to the memories of those people by trying to use them to win an unwinnable argument. In fact you don't even make a point, you just reiterate what you said in the first place, which was misguided and reactionary.

Hey, bad shit happens, and if we're lucky, we live to enjoy another day. Life is suffering. But for you to come around and misuse the memories of tragedies to try to convnice other people that they are misusing the memories of tragedy is, in itself, a travesty.

We all have dead loved ones that we grieve for in our life and guesg what, everyone has cracked a joke about being dead at some point or another in their life. Does this mean any joke related to death is an offense to anyone who ever died? No.

You really need to find a way to handle the pain in your life rather than trying to bring others down with it.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Well THAT'S about the least sensitive thing I've ever heard.....
Nobody is saying that you can't have black humour and make jokes about pretty much any subject. Black humour is an excellent way of taking the sting out of life's darkest times.......however........

You shouldn't confuse the subject of a joke with it's target - you can make jokes involving drunk drivers / paedophiles / rape without actually finding any of those subjects intrinsically funny.

My point here is that drunk driving seems to be regarded by some people affectionately, as an amusing and acceptable activity, whereas I don't believe that it is.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ask Dick Cheney and Chimpo
Cheney had 2 DUI's and the young chimp 1.

I'm sure they are still laughing about it.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. no, not funny in the least
to be truthful i have had two. the first about 25 years ago, mid 20's, single, wedding, 3am, go figure. the second was after an afternoon corporate picnic, my wife's birthday, about 15 years ago, i blew the exact limit but hadn't had a drink for over an hour and a half before i drove.

i am not proud of either and it is truly a degrading and embarassing experience, not to mention costly and a huge inconvenience. i thank God that i did not hurt anybody but don't agree with your punishment ideas. i see my own experience as proof that people can learn from their mistakes. habitual offenders should be throw in jail i agree, i just don't think that the number is two, ten years apart necessarily indicates habitual.

i was stupid and thoughtless but back in those days (before MADD) there was little publicity about just how dangerous it is. trying to justify it a bit now with that statement may show how embarassed i still am of it.

not sure if this answers your question or this is the sort of response you were looking for but, there it is.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I thank you for you honesty, but.....
I think you may be an exception to the rule.....

You're clearly not a "habitual" offender and the second borderline offence seems to be an honest mistake or momentary lack of judgement - you'll note that I talked about being "drunk", by which I meant out of control, rather than just marginally above the legal limit (after all, there are countries with a zero limit on drinking, so you could be over the limit with one beer several hours previously).

Also, you don't find it funny and clearly are not arrogant about the crime itself, so I would suggest that you are aware of the gravity of what you did and are extremely unlikely to do anything similar again.

Needless to say, my thoughts on drunk driving haven't been rigorously worked through - my suggestions re: punishment were more of an indication of how serious I believe the crime to be, rather than a panacea that would apply in every instance of the crime.

Thanks again.

P.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. i agree that it is a problem
that needs to be addressed. there are numerous stories in the local papers of someone with 9 or 10 offenses finally killing someone. and these are only the ones they could not beat. maybe two with a year's time would be jail and loss of priveleges for maybe 5 years. and i agree on the "out of control" aspect. even after the wedding i was at .12 and our limits were .10 at the time. someone clearly wasted is self-centered and stupid and so are those who were with him and allowed him behind the wheel.
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TheBigGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think attitudes have changed over the years.
Edited on Mon Jul-28-03 07:33 PM by TheBigGuy
I think it used to be more "ok" in the past, until the MADD movement hit, and some high-profile cases made the news...

...in my part of the USA there was a notorious drunk driving accident on the interstate (motorway) between Cincinnatti and Louisville, where a drunk driver driving a pickup drove across the median strip and into oncoming traffice, plowing into a schoolbus filled w. kids coming back from a trip to an amuesement park....the bus burst into flames burning the kids to death...the heat was so intense the charred bodys where fused to the metal skin of the schoolbus. This was a church school, so this religous community lost all their kids of a certain age....

This made the news in all the citys of ther region as it was such a horrid accident....and such a good example of the irresponsibilty of drunk driving..the perp was driving around the county looking for more beer to drink...

The drunk driver survived, of course, and ended up doing time for vehicular homicide.

There is now a sign put up by the state highway department at the site of this crash, as a memorial. And there usually are some wreathes or flowers by it.

So its stuff like this that has reduced tolerance for drunk driving.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Gawd
That is the most horrible drunk driving story I think I have ever heard
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ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. I'd agree, the era of the 'Funny Drunk' is no more.
<eom>
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democrat in Tallahassee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. Travis Minor's (plays for the Dolphins) dad was killed by a drunk driver
this morning. Mr. Minor was driving his Harley and was hit by someone who had 5 DUI arrests. The coward ran away but they caught him and I hope he stays in jail for a long long time. Travis played for Florida State and he is a fine young man; they family was very close--this will be hard for them.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. for me with family members
who have battled addiction to booze .

I don't find it funny at all .

My husband feels the same way and even is designated driver
most of the time .

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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. NOT funny, the thing is...'immoral, thoughtless, self-centred'
Many do not realize the degree to which alcohol impairs judgement

both physical, ie hand/eye, and mental/decision making.

If one does not plan before beginning to drink, the chance of making

a poor decision re: driving or say climbing a scaffold or diving

off a bridge.
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Exultant Democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. I have a question
Does anyone know that the total monetary cost of drunk driving is each year, property damage medical bills, judicial proceedings, burial costs, etc...? I also wonder if a breathalyser in every car that wouldn’t let you drive unless you blew clean would be effective.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. MADD Online.
http://www.madd.org/stats/0,1056,1779,00.html.

They list the economic cost of impaired driving by state.
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maxanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. nope
it's not funny at all. A few years ago a family who lived around the corner from me were driving home in their van. Two drunk guys in a Lincoln Continental hit them, doing 100 mph. They killed 4 people in the van, including an expectant mother. Two kids in the van lost their mother, aunt, and siblings - and were in the hospital for months with their own injuries. Both guys in the Lincoln were killed. In a small town this was devastating.

I teach an educational program to DUI offenders. One of the guys in the car had been through the class. I hear terrible stories all the time, that result from drinking and driving.

I'm no hero - I was an active alcoholic for 20 years, and I drove in plenty of blackouts. I had a DUI - and I blew a .19 BAC. I had no business in the driving business, but I was actually in better shape that night than I had been at other times. I didn't bother to get my license back for 5 years - AFTER I knew I was done drinking.

A big part of the problem is societal acceptance of drinking and driving. It's a rite of passage - some actually consider it a right, and will tell you that DUI laws violate your civil rights. Some of them will find this thread, and hold forth on the subject.

It's not a joke.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. We have a friend that just did 30 days for it in Tent City.
Now he's driving again without a license and yep, he drinks IN THE CAR.

Make that: My husband has a friend . . .. I want nothing to do with him anymore.

Despicable.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Turn him in.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. Question?
If a guy is in a bar three blocks from his home, and has a few too many beers and is above the legal limit, and drives home and goes to bed and falls asleep without getting out of his clothes.... has a crime been committed?

Obviously, whether the guy was caught or not, he committed a crimnal act, and as a guy who drinks about 1 beer every five years, I think that's a crock.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. I'm not really sure what your point is.......
Crime is still crime regardless of whether someone is caught, IMHO.

P.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. My point is ...
that if a person drives home without incident not hurting anyone or bothering anyone, he shouldn't be committing a criminal act.

If he hits something, he should be a criminal.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. I'm afraid that your point is utterly wrong....
If someone drives home after "a few too many beers and is above the legal limit" it shouldn't be a crime if they don't hit someone???

Well firstly, surely it's the "breaking the law" part that entails whether it's a crime, rather than getting caught.

Secondly - "a few too many"......driving after "a few" beers is dangerous, and rightfully illegal.

Thirdly, and most importantly, consider this counter example - "If someone shoots a rifle out of the window and the bullet doesn't hurt anyone or cause damage, then it shouldn't be a crime." It is, I'm afraid, ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS to declare that someone who drives whilst significantly over the drink drive alcohol limit, is not a criminal if they happen to have the good fortune not to hit anyone.

Here's the point......if you drink drive, you are significantly more likely to have an accident and hurt somebody, although you may not have an accident 99 times out of 100. I'd rather that you were stopped, arrested and charged during the 99 times that you act illegally and irresponsibly but don't cause injury, rather than Police wait until you hurt someone before they charge you with anything.

"I'm sorry that your son was killed by that drunk driver - we know he's driven home drunk perfectly well every night for a month, but we had to wait until he hit someone before he was breaking the law".

Not much comfort is it?

P
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ze_dscherman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. If someone shoots into a crowd and kills no one
this should not be prosecuted?

Well, drunk driving is not like intentionally harming other. But wantonly negligent it is.

So, in my opinion, people should be prosecuted for DUI. In addition, they should be punished for gross negligence in case they hit someone/something.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. It's not funny at all
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PennyLane Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
22. Hilarious..........NOT!
Believe me, I was a paramedic and my duty night was Friday. Ninety percent of the calls after 9pm involved alcohol. Up until that time, I was a social drinker. But not anymore. Drunks are obnoxious and don't realize until the next morning, if then, the extent of their foolishness. The tide is slowly changing in regards to the amusement people get out of watching the antics of the inebriated. But sadly there is still a long way to go in that respect.
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phrenzy Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
25. Well
I believe there is a difference between driving DRUNK and Drinking and Driving...

Drunk, as in totally impaired is a horrible thing to do and I've slept in my car many times because I could tell I was not safe.

BUT - I can't help but think that the 'legal limit' thing can be a bit of bullshit. The truth is, a ridiculously LOW amount of alcohol can put you over the 'limit' - One thing I often realize is that driving TIRED or ANGRY or DISTRACTED is often WAY more dangerous than driving with a 'buzz'

I am not trying to rationalize here, but the idea that I can go out with friends and risk a FELONY for having TWO beers (which don't impair my driving)

Anyway, I personally distinguish (in levels of severity) between people that are over the 'limit' and people that are 'drunk' - there IS a difference.

Of course, the bottom line is - if you are going to drink (at all)- it is always better to have the option of NOT driving home - you never know how alcohol will hit you that night.
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
28. Funny like a gun shot wound
Or getting your pecker caught in heavy machinery.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
32. BOTH drunks in general and drunk drivers
are NOT funny but they are selfish, self-centered and disgusting. :grr: :grr: :grr: My boyfriend's sister was killed by a drunk driver and as far as I am concerned it was like being murdered.
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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 04:41 AM
Response to Original message
33. Oh Pert what have you done?
War is not funny but is this?

Saddam and his sons walk into a bar......


Boom

There are many things we do that are potentially dangerous to other people lives especially when in control of a vehicle.

People are dying because idiots are happy to chat and text on their mobile phones whilst driving.

People are dying because people are too busy reading maps whilst driving.

People are dying because people enjoy driving too fast and assume speed limits are for other people.

All of the above are irresponsible as is of course drunk driving. None of them seem to have particular stigma attached to them. Unfortunately, we live in a selfish culture where rules are ignored for personal gratification. Personally I'd prefer to see much harsher enforcement of existing laws.

Drink driving isn't funny. The potential consequences certainly are not. However, that doesn't mean I won't find jokes about drink driving funny.



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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Come on Spen, you know me....
I have no objection to dark humour mate. It's just that in The Simpsons, Burns is satirised for being evil, and Homer is satirised for his stupidity and smallmindedness and that's hilarious - but when it comes to drink driving, it seems to be the act itself that is regarded as funny, rather than e.g. Homer's stupid explanation of it.

I'm not suggesting that I want the Simpsons to turn into a didactic and patronising road safety lesson, it's just that DUI seems to be regarded as the norm, or an amusing rite of passage, and I don't think that it is.

I've seen lots of standup comedians making hilarious jokes about cancer but that doesn't mean that cancer itself is funny.........and remember Graham Chapman's funeral? Hilarious, but that doesn't mean that his death was funny.

P.
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ChillEB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
34. WARNING! Absurdly long, UN-PC opinion here!
Warning I: Typical lengthy ChillEB pontification. Extreme boredom may arise.

Warning II: NON-PC views which may 'ruffle feathers' are expressed herein.

Proceed with extreme caution!

Just on account of I'm on a roll of playing devil's advocate and arguing UN-popular views (*gasp*) lately, I may as well continue my trend of losing friends and influencing people (to want to kill me)...

I find DUI laws to be, in many cases, totally UNJUST. DUI penalties, in my esteem (especially for DUI #1) are too stiff, assuming we're discussing cases wherein nobody was hurt, which is usually the case. I think if you DO hurt someone, the penalties should be comparable to what you'd get if you picked up a gun and inflicted the same harm. Otherwise, I think the penalty is way too harsh, especially for DUI #1:

* 6 months of (1x)Weekly (3 hours/week) 'alcohol school' where you watch every Oprah ever made featuring the distraught relatives of people killed by drunk drivers. Personally, I think this punishment, along with the others I'll refer to below as 'appropriate', is sufficient for a first offense.
* 6 months, NO driving license, for ANYTHING except going to alcohol school. This alone costs some people their jobs, and hence potentially thousands of dollars, foreclosed homes, repossessed vehicles, even bankruptcy and divorce. This should be reserved for extra high BAC cases (>.16).
* $1200 Fine - This seems appropriate.
* Approx. 7 days work detail. This is 7 Saturdays where you PAY the government to work for THEM. If you screw up just ONCE and don't show up (even with a damn good excuse), it usually means your work detail program is cancelled, and any remaining days are served in JAIL. This should be reserved for high BAC cases (>.16)
* Double-point violation - This is appropriate.
* You are not allowed to drive with ANY measurable amount of alcohol in your system for 3 years. Otherwise, it counts as another DUI, with all attendant penalties. WHY is this fair? Either you're .08, and hence legally drunk, or you are not. What is it about the fact that you've been caught DUI one time that makes it somehow MORE dangerous in the future if you've had 1 beer and then drive? It's just a highly punative penalty, IMHO, created expressely for the purpose of keeping you 'in the system', and making the government more money. I don't think any first-time offender should get this.
* Perhaps most egregious: ALL the insurance companies in your life find out about it, and absolutely RAPE your pocketbook. You're looking at a stiff penalty when you get your license back as it is: $100 at the DMV, and usually a couple $100 from your insurance co, on TOP of the 'assigned risk' category for auto insurance for three years (3-4 TIMES what you usually pay - more THOUSANDS of dollars down the drain). Your Homeowners ins. can also find out about it, and double or triple your rates, or REVOKE it altogether. You're looking at MORE THOUSAND$, but this isn't the government's doing, so there's little anyone can do about this matter.

In other words, you get ROYALLY f*cked. Your *first* DUI can easily end up costing you $10,000+, your job, your relationship, and even your HOME. Well, of course, the easy refutation to my complaints is "So WHAT? You could've KILLED somebody!" This is true. But - you didn't. What other 'crime' is there on the books who's penalty is largely dictated on what "might have happened"? If you get stopped with a loaded pistol in your car, you MIGHT'VE shot and killed somebody with it, right? But are you penalized as though you DID? Of course not! There is almost NO other crime that I can think of that is penalized this way. I don't think that it is fair for this ONE thing to be assessed based on 'worst case scenarios that DIDN'T happen', when practically NOTHING else on the lawbooks, is.

Another unfair aspect to these laws: It is nearly irrelevant WHAT you were doing when you got stopped. Sure, they *might* try to tack on a 'reckless driving' charge in some cases, but that is usually bargained out in exchange for a quick 'guilty' plea when your arraignment comes. Lets consider two DUI scenarios:
1) Joe Blow, 21, is driving home from a party he was drinking at. This is Joe's FIRST TIME EVER drinking alcohol. He's 50 miles away from his hotel, in a city he's never been in, totally drunk after pounding 10 beers from the beer bong. He is dead tired from jet-lag, and he's stopped by police while speeding at 100 MPH down the wrong side of the road, in the dark, at 2am. He fails all roadside tests, blows a .15 BAC on the Breathalyzer, and is arrested for DUI.
2) Jane Doe is driving home two blocks from her local watering hole at 2pm in the afternoon, after sipping 4 beers, just like she has done every day for the past 20 years. She is driving perfectly safely, obeying all traffic laws, but gets stopped for her registration tags being expired. The officer smells the alcohol and gives her a roadside test, followed by a breathalyzer. She is arrested and booked for DUI at .08 BAC.

Apart from the simple physics of these situations, which CLEARLY dictate that Joe is WAY WAY WAY more dangerous to others on the road, there is an obvious discrepancy in terms of who is being blatantly irresponsible. Why would Joe get so drunk, so far from bed, when he knew he had to drive to the hotel that night, in the dark, on strange roads? This shows MUCH worse judgement than Jane, who knows that she only has a short distance to go, doesn't feel the LEAST bit buzzed, has plenty of visibility, and is driving streets she drives every single day.

The chances of Joe creating a horrible, deadly situation are SO SO SO much greater than Jane its almost immeasurable. He is an accident waiting to happen. He could well fall asleep, or blow through a red light, or have a head-on, or... countless mishaps could logically be expected. However, the ONLY way Jane gets in an accident here is if something suddenly jumps out at her on the road, and her braking reaction takes .5 seconds instead of their usual .3 seconds, ostensibly due to the alcohol. The truth is that it's quite UN-likely that she won't get home perfectly fine, because things just don't 'jump out' at you all that often, and .5 seconds (just giving a random number) is quick *enough* probably 90% of the time when something does.

The fact that Jane is at .08, from a practical standpoint, is only a problem *IF* her reaction time is seriously affected by the booze, AND her reaction time for some reason suddenly becomes important in avoiding an accident. I don't know about you, but I drive QUITE a lot, and it is extremely rare that during the course of a short trip, my ability to react my absolute *fastest* makes the difference of whether or not I hurt or maim someone during the course of said short trip.

Clearly, the two scenarios I described are not EVEN the same in terms of danger created. Yet they would likely be punished the same, due to sentencing guidelines from the legislature. The issue of the fact that Jane has drunk those 4 beers every DAY for 20 years doesn't enter into the equation, yet there is no question in my mind that it SHOULD matter. Why, you ask? Because TOLERANCE, friends, is very real, and should not be discounted out-of-hand. The degree to which one's reactions are slowed by alcohol, and their judgement impaired, is NOT how much someone has drunk (or even their BAC), but rather, what EFFECT does what they've drunk have on them.

You see, the legal limit of .08 BAC is based on the effect that a .08 BAC has on a person who does not drink regularly. To believe that BAC is an absolute indicator of the effect alcohol has on someone is to buy into BS propaganda promulgated by those who wish us to overlook a fundamental FLAW in the DUI laws. If these laws were truly just, tolerance would enter into the equation. But since tolerance cannot be easily calculated by an objective measurement which will stand up in court, this *critical* piece of the equation is glossed over by a lie. This lie states that everyone is equally impaired at a given BAC. BAC, however, is strictly a function of alcohol consumed, time period it was consumed over, and body weight.

To illustrate the concept of tolerance, I always like to use the example of my father, a chronic pain sufferer who's been on opiate painkillers for the last 5 years. At this point, on a daily basis, he takes 4x80mg oxycontin. This is the equivalent taking 64 Percocet tablets a day. Percocets are slightly stronger than Vicodin, which most people have taken at one time or another. Those of you who've tried Vicodin, can you IMAGINE what would happen to you if you took 64 vics in ONE DAY? I can tell you exactly what would happen: You would overdose, and quite possibly die. But you can't even tell my dad is on drugs, even after 64 Percocets. This shows you how profoundly 'real' tolerance is. The same is true of alcohol. Your body adjusts to a given amount if you take it all the time, and you WILL NOT be affected by the same amounts that would have a novice drinker in the hospital, getting a stomach punch, on the verge of death. Tolerance is a VERY important piece of the puzzle, yet it's ignored and lied about by the DUI lawmakers, because it is inconvenient to acknowledge (or calculate) it's effects.

DUI law is kept 'simple' (BAC>.08=Game Over), and neither the officers, nor the judge, is generally called upon to use their brains to determine a TRULY FAIR penalty for each person accused of DUI, on an individual basis. To be fair, I don't believe this is the result of 'laziness' or distrust of the judgement of these people who are trusted to make these exact judgement calls on OTHER crimes, day after day. There are real practicality issues involved in trying to establish truly 'fair' penalties for DUI. Among them would be questions like: whether someone was TRULY 'on their way home', like they said they were, or whether they really do have a high tolerance for alcohol. But ignoring the total picture of the case, in favor of convenience of a simple rule, does NOT make the laws 'just', nor 'okay' with me. Not when the stakes for the individual convicted are SO high (see the penalties above)...

Harsh reality is that one of the cop's 'big' duties these days is to make money for the government. Because of this, they are probably 95% likely to haul in and charge Jane, versus 100% likely to haul in Joe. The 5% variation comes in because of that small chance that Jane gets a 'cool' cop who takes it upon himself to think: "You know, she didn't fail a SINGLE ONE of her roadside tests, apart from the breathalyzer. She's two blocks from home, and almost certainly would not have caused any problems getting there. I'm gonna tell her to walk home with a stern warning..."

Believe it or not, I have had that happen to me, but everyone I've ever told has been literally flabbergasted by my story - I don't think it happens too often that you blow a .12 on the roadside, and are let go to walk (actually, I believe it would've been more of a "gleeful skip" than a 'walk') home.

I think that the lack of discretion when it comes to sentencing based on a)the TOTAL scenario at hand, and b)the individual's tolerance, is manifestly UN-just. Basically, for a number of different reasons, DUI laws are a 'shotgun' approach to the DUI problem. Which really creates 2 problems, at least if you are a libra (like me) and thus overly sensitive and analytical when it comes to the subject of Justice. 'Shotgun'-style laws have a way of being WILDLY unfair to certain individuals subject to the penalty of said laws.

Bottom line (FINALLY!): The only way I'd agree with the harsh penalty imposed for DUI is if one or both of the following was somehow made true:
I) the sentencing guidelines were written in a way that more accurately took *all* facts into account, rather than just a breathalyzer, with an appropriate 'sliding scale' based on the TRUE danger this person's DUI created, AND/OR
II) ALL other acts committed by drivers which have the potential to lower ones reaction time, or their coordination, were met with very similar penalties to those you see for DUI. Just because a given crime is 'popular', like DUI, does not mean that it is 'Just' to penalize each individual more harshly, simply because a lot of other individuals commit the same crime.

If one day the PD discovered that a LOT of people were going into the grocery store and stealing food, for example, would you accept it if the cops said: 'This theft from grocery stores must be stopped, so, from now on, if you steal food from the grocery store, you're going to jail for 20 years. Period. The sentence for stealing from a Department Store, however, will stay at one month probation, because almost nobody is stealing from Department Stores'? Of course not.

Why is this analogy valid, I hear you asking? Because there are ALL KINDS of things that drivers do that affect their ability to react to dangers on the road in a way similiar to drinking. Yet the penalties for DUI are literally THOUSANDS of times WORSE than many of these things. I think that's bullshit, to be blunt. Either 'creating a situation wherein your reaction time to dangers on the road is lowered' IS a SERIOUS crime, and worthy of SERIOUS penalty, OR IT IS NOT. Period. The reason WHY your reaction time is lowered should be totally irrelevant - YOU are responsible for it no matter what, right? You don't HAVE to eat and drive. Nor talk on the Cell and drive. Nor drive when you're excessively tired. Nor drive with bald tires, bad brakes, or a broken windshield wiper. Just like you don't HAVE to drink and drive. ALL of these things can cause you to have lowered reactions to emergency situations, yet you could be doing ALL of them at once, and receive a damn 'fix-it' ticket. How the hell is *THAT* right?

In a nutshell, the way DUI is prosecuted is just NOT the way we prosecute other crimes. They are all judged on the entirety of what actually happened, not on what *might* have happened. Sentencing for Murder (or manslaughter) provides a good example of what I'm talking about. When someone dies at the hand of another, there are all SORTS of factors taken into consideration before a sentence is handed down, right? You could get anything from probation to execution. This is how nearly all of our laws work. Except DUI, wherein, in many ways, you can be severely sanctioned based purely on 'possibilities'. I'm afraid I just don't find DUI laws to be the least bit "Just", in their current incarnation.

Thanks for wading through this. Hope it gave you a new perspective, even if you still think I'm full of horse-puckey!

peace,
ChilLE
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maxanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. talk about overwrought
and hysterical hyperbole. What state is it that has the draconian laws you describe? :eyes: How is it that we've all missed hearing about this place and these laws? Your exaggeration (and outright lies) do not serve to win anyone over.

Riddle me this - if a crazed man came into your house and began waving a loaded weapon around at your family - would you suggest to the police that he be released because after all "he didn't kill anyone?"

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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Well argued, but.....
if someone read a few medical books and then masqueraded as a doctor, I would still want them arrested and punished as a danger to society regardless of how successful they were. I don't care how sure THEY are that they can do something without risk - there are rules and laws regarding who can perform medical procedures.

The same thing applies to driving - DUI hugely increases the risk of death or injury to other people and I don't care how sure someone is that they can drive perfectly OK after 6 beers, if they choose to do so then they have gone against the legal and scientific determination of what constitutes safe driving conditions. They have CHOSEN to endanger OTHER PEOPLE.

I agree with you that people deserve a second chance, and that punishments for a first DUI should not be crippling, provided that the case was borderline rather than someone drinking all day and then trying to drive home. However, a 2nd DUI within say 5 years, ought to demonstrate the level of respect that you have for other people's lives, and you should be treated accordingly.

Re: insurance.....I hate insurance companies, but am on their side on this one. They are being asked to provide insurance against vehicular accident and injury for someone who has graphically demonstrated a complete disregard for safe driving practices. They are clearly accepting a higher level of risk and therefore premiums should increase in line with that risk.

Regarding losing your job from a DUI - if you whole life depends on you having a car then IMHO you're quite an asshole if you decide to risk it all for a few extra drinks. It demonstrates the priorities that you have....

Peace.

P.
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
35. Weed is illegal
But stupid drunk drivers get arrested everyday, whether or not they kill somebody.

I hate drunks and drunk drivers.


Pull their license for life after the second offence.
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NicoleM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
40. what to do about it
I used to work with a couple of girls who would get blackout drunk and drive. One time they were laughing about how they were so drunk, they got lost in a parking lot on the way home. I pretty much freaked out on them. I told them that they were lucky that they were still alive and that they hadn't killed anybody else, and if they had killed somebody they'd be no better than a murderer who uses a different weapon. And then I told them that they sucked. In front of everybody at work. Loudly.

Needless to say, I was not very popular with them for a while. But after that, they took a cab. Apparently I made an impression. So when people joke about their drunk driving exploits, you don't have to go nuts on them like I did, but it might make a difference if you express some disapproval. People know it's wrong. Sometimes they just need some peer pressure.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
41. it depends on the context
I just had a pint at the local pub. On my drive home, i passed "ZERO" cars on a dark single lane road to my home. If i was shitfaced drunk, the worse crime i could committ is to drive my own car in to a ditch.

Many of the local scottish people in this area see drunk driving similarly, that on an empty single lane farm road... what is the harm.... and many people round these parts have lost licenses and such to drink driving... expecially with the new law that allows people to report a person and win a 500 pound reward... so a new class of lowlife inhabits the pub watching for people who've had more than 2 pints to drive away quickly to call the police... just everyone knows who these supergrass assholes are and they are socially the equivalent of prison rats.

I agree it is a crime, but only when it kills... and for all the political incorrectness of the statement... no harm done is no harm done. Some people are beaten up with the law and analogies like you make with waving guns around.. yea yea... but its more closer to walking along a cliff... maybe you fall off... maybe you don't... and is it a crime if you do?

Sure the same context is not central london, but that is your issue for presuming that very rural highland scotland where drunk driving is not a death-problem (compared with alcoholism which has killed many round these parts)... lets be real.
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drdigi420 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. No, but certain people's reactions to it are
:)
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