Help me deal with a RW talking point I can't shake.

[Ein]

Got this card pulled on me in an argument the other day. He was cornered so he pulled the Clinton card (the rights favorite tactic)... and mentioned how clinton scaled back intelligence services, and that helped cause the 9/11 attacks to get by.

I couldn't shake it. I don't know of Senior Poppy's intelligence budget, but I remember hearing Clinton did scale back the intelligence services somewhere.

so you got Poppy -> 1993 attacks avoided Clinton -> 9/11 attacks happen?

This shouldn't matter in the (likely, to me) case of LIHOP, which I believe.

What am I missing/taking for granted/being lied to about? Fill me in.

[salin]

1. I believe that Clinton

greatly increased the proportion of the intelligence funding going towards terrorism (domestic and foreign aimed at US targets). It was Ashcroft who cut the funding and lowered it out of the top ten priorities of the DOJ (and thus FBI). The funding was a lower priority (and I think lower $ than previous - but I am not sure on that count) in the budget submitted by Ashcroft just prior to 911.

[Stephanie]

2. Remember Clinton prevented the Millenium attacks

The guy they arrested crossing the border at Vancouver with a truck full of explosives. Difference is Clinton wasn't hoping for a terrorist attack in order to further his agenda. He actually took steps to STOP them. It was Congress that stymied his efforts.

[FlashHarry]

3. Bring up Louis Freeh

Former FBI head, luddite and Clinton hater. The first thing he did upon taking the job was to have the computer removed from his office. He hated e-mail. He spent most of his time investigating Clinton, when John O'Neill, the head of counter-terrorism in the NY office, was warning him about Bin Laden (O'Neill later got so frustrated, he quit the FBI and took a job as head of security for... the World Trade Center. He was killed on 9/11.)

That's just for starters. You might mention that when the incoming admin. had their 'secrets briefing' during the transition, the Clinton folks told 'em that OBL was the NUMBER ONE PRIORITY. They did nothing for 8 months. We all know the rest of the story.

Mention the heads up the intelligence services got in the summer of '01 while Bush was on vacation. They warned the admin. that Al Qaeda was 'planning something big, soon.' Again, the admin. did nothing.

Listen, Clinton isn't free from culpability. But Bush is as culpable, if not more so.

Edited for clarity...

[Alexander]

8. Louis Freeh is very much alive, thank you.

John O'Neill, not Freeh, died on 9/11.

What are you smoking?

[FlashHarry]

10. Sorry. It was a grammar problem.

I was typing too fast.

[charlie]

12. Manners

You seemed to have missed this:

"...when the head of his NY office was warning him about Bin Laden..."

[FlashHarry]

18. Huh?

[charlie]

19. That was for Alexander

not you :)

[FlashHarry]

20. Well, my original post WAS confusing.

I'm a writer. I should have known better. Actually, I did. I was just typing too furiously...

[chaumont58]

28. Probably just wishful thinking. If there truly were a God, that would....

be the case.

[SayitAintSo]

11. I think you mean John O'Neill don't you ?

Former FBI Director John O'Neill was sabotaged in his Al-Quaeda

investigation and had to resign in July 2001.

He was offered a new job at the WTC and died on September 11th.

Interesting little known fact ....

[sandnsea]

4. A couple things

The counter-terrorism portion of the budget was increased and Clinton also had that Terrorism Bill passed after OKCity. I think there was Republican opposition to some of the things he wanted that might be in the Patriot Act, but I can't remember specifics right now. Also, every time Clinton mentioned bin Laden, the bulk of the Republican party screamed 'diversion'. Chasing Clinton's penis was more important than chasing terrorists.

[incontrovertible]

5. The Clintonistas

had an admirable (if probably imprudent) goal of washing their hands of the scumfuck "School of the Americas" / Baath Party types so favored throughout the Cold War by Realpolitick ghouls such as Kissinger.

I suppose it could be argued that cutting certain thugs off the Intelligence payroll could have left gaps in Intelligence gathering capability, but this is the price one pays to sleep through the night knowing one's hired help aren't water-torturing someone's four-year-old to find out who bought that case of ammo.

[jagguy]

6. all the above it true

but his admin was responsible for a large cutback in field agents. They were accused of dealing with dodgy people, folks thought that sounded bad.

If you want the dirt on bad people you probably do need to associate with dodgy people.

This will likely have to be a break even issue with your adversary.

[FlashHarry]

7. True...

...but under this admin. sorely needed Arab interpreters have been fired for being gay. Think about that one!

[incontrovertible]

15. yeah

conservatives I've seen confronted with that very issue have basically had to concede it - about as stupid a move as can be undertaken in this geopolitical environment. Inexcusable, really - Dean oughta put it in a campaign ad: "No matter how you feel personally about gay people - was this the right thing to do?"

The Bush Administration wasn't exactly chomping at the bit to get Intelligence assets established throughout the Middle East ASAP after taking office, either, as I recall. Most of the static I remember basically surrounded the idea of "How can the U.S. go about successfully waging a non-nuclear war with, and at the same time exploiting the slave labor / massive consumer market of, China?" - at least up until 9/11.

[jagguy]

29. problem with assets

is that it takes like ten years to create them, especially in the ME.

[charlie]

16. Cutbacks began under Bush I

As part of his New World Order, shifting away from Cold War concerns and more toward economic espionage. Poppy's partly on the hook for downsizing too.

[Hamlette]

9. Congress controls the budget...not the president

[fob]

13. Simple, Demand verifiable information of this. Make him provide

the proof for HIS assertion. Then google clinton, 1996 anti-terrorism legislation and pull out one of the quotes from Orrin Hatch saying that was just a power grab by clinton.

You may also want to find the quote by Sandy Berger to Condescenda Rice that Al-queda would take up most of her time, and the quote from the military officer (general?) that was there during both admins and said, clintons staff met regularly and he didn't detect that kind of focus with the new admin.

Lastly, ask him who was in office Jan 21 to Sept 2001? Answer: Not Clinton! When he says thats too short a time to do anything, ask him if thats long enough to do NOTHING!

[DemBones DemBones]

30. And remind him that presidents only have four years in a term so

they need to get busy as soon as they get in office. Bush* did, in fact, start pushing his agenda from the day he was inaugurated, and he has pushed hard. He has also had the support of both houses of Congress for much of that time while the GOP Congresses Clinton had to work with refused to consider increasing airport protection because they thought the threat of terrorism was slight. (Gore chaired the committee that studied airport security.) And, as was already said, the RWers attacked Clinton for "wagging the dog" when he took military action related to terrorism or to his foreign policy. When you consider the way Clinton was hounded with investigations (Whitewater, Filegate, Paula Jones, Monica Lewinsky), it's a miracle he was able to get anything done.

Edit: I forgot to say that, although Bush* started pushing his agenda as soon as he took power, he simply was not much interested in terrorism or foreign policy prior to Sept. 11. He was blowing off treaties right and left, telling allies they'd have to solve their own problems. He dealt poorly with the scandal of civilians on a US Navy submarine that ran into a Japanese fishing boat, killing Japanese children and he totally fumbled his handling of China's taking possession of our spy plane and its crew.

[bluestateguy]

14. Ask them what was cut

What did Clinton cut? Make them offer specifics and not just blow hot air repeated from Rush and Sean Hannity.

Clinton did sign a bill in 1995 which restricted the CIA's ability to work with "unsavory" individuals, but that law only required agents to receive approval from higher ups before working with unsavory characters. To my knowledge, permission to work with unsavory people has never been denied when agents felt it was necessary.

Most of the reduction of intelligence services came in the 1970's after the agency abused their powers and privileges. Most of these "cuts" that conseravtives are whining about had long since been implemented by the time Clinton took the oath of office.

[gratuitous]

17. Check Blumenthal's book

"The Clinton Wars," particularly the chapter right before "Show Trial." Blumenthal deals in detail with the steps that the Clinton Administration was taking to keep up with Al Qaeda terrorists, including missing Osama bin Laden by about an hour.

The major problem for domestic intelligence was all the agents pulled off of counterterrorism to feed the insatiable Kenneth Starr and his neverending investigation, which labored mightily to bring forth a gnat as his grounds for impeachment.

See also Bartcop's website. I think he has a permanent article at the top of his page addressing many of these points.

The proof in the pudding, however, is that the terrorist attacks stopped dead after 1993 when Clinton's Justice Department identified the World Trade Center bombers, developed the case against them, convicted them, and sent them to prison. Even at the millennium celebration, which appeared to be a propitious time for a terrorist attack, there was nothing. Once Al Qaeda had a few months to size up the new administration, their attack plans went forward.

Don't grow old waiting for an answer to that last point, because your opponents won't have one.

[charlie]

24. Domestic attacks stopped

but his friend won't forget to bring up Khobar Towers, the African embassy bombings, and the USS Cole.

[Ein]

21. Thanks guys!

Reading this I got alot to think about

- The big "DUH" on congress controlling funding
- A name to google
- A book to read.

and the come around- thing were I realized... I read the first 20 pages of the 9/11 report (there too many goddamned things to read in this world), that the Bushies had plenty of information to work with, but just LIHOP.

I'm predicting an October surprise, and if it is anything similar to what I'm guessing... well its time to rebel.

[FlashHarry]

23. Check out this PBS link

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/john/timeline.html

[Melsky]

22. The main problem was lack of communication

and too much information and not knowing what do do with it. So how does the bush administration deal with this? Huge data mining operations, picking wars with unrelated countries, and loss of civil rights. Why don't they spend the time and money on getting the CIA and FBI to co operate and communicate.

[DemBones DemBones]

25. Remember there were no attacks on 12/31/99, either, and at least

one terrorist was arrested trying to coss in from Canada and blow something up for New Year's. So if Clinton cut intelligence some, they were still on top of things. One of Clinton's people (sorry I don't remember who) has said he met with the Bush* people in charge of terrorism (on Condi Rice's staff, I think) and told them they would be spending most of their time on Bin Laden but they seemed uninterested. (So, #1 -- Clinton's people warned the Bush* people about Osama.

It's also known that Bush* directed everyone to back off on investigating the Bin Laden family and other Saudi Arabians. (#2 -- Bush* made the intelligence agencies back off on their investigations of the Bin Ladens and other Saudis.)

The Hart-Rudman report on homeland security was issued in January 2001 and largely ignored by Bush* and his people. Cheney was supposed to take charge of it but he was too busy inviting Kenny Boy Lay and other energy fat cats to come to Washington and tell him how to make them richer -- er, advise him on energy policy. (#3 -- No action was taken on the recommendations of the bipartisan national committee on security.)

Either no one in intel work connected the dots or the Bush* administration ignored what they said. We know there were warnings. There was a threat to attack Bush* by air when he was in Genoa for the G-8 meetings in June of 2001 and there was intelligence that Osama was planning a major attack on the U.S. Apparently the military's emergency response system was not kicked up a notch and the airlines and public were not advised of talk about hijackings -- remember that hijackings hadn't been common for some time. Bush did spend a month on vacation away from D.C. The Pentagon was doing a simulation of an attack on the Pentagon by a plane flying into it yet months later Condi Rice was to claim that they never thought of people flying planes into building as weapons. (#4 -- They ignored the warnings that they received.)

#5 -- Bush* sat in a classroom reading about a goat with a roomful of third graders even after he knew the country had been attacked. And his people allowed him to do this. Reasonable people should have concluded that the president (though selected, not elected) might be in danger and should be doing something more useful than photo opping with kids.

You might also mention that Clinton never tried to blame Bush I for the first attack on the WTC or for the Oklahoma City bombing. I've never heard a Democrat try to blame those events on Bush I either. Only the GOP wants to pass the buck.

[Ein]

26. a good wealth there.

Thanks. Didn't remember the millenium attacks, I'm glad I was too drunk to drive to Times Square with my buds that night (sad to say).

One of things I get alot in conversation/debates is 'You just hate, Bush' and then I respond that he is a criminal, and the GOP has been that way since Nixon. They want specifics... well I am usually at a loss for words, that question ("Why"-to the crook thing), make my freaking head spin from all the answers.

Oh yeah, and when I do come up with examples and ways to back them up, they just say "Thats Bullshit"

"Thats the RW"

[charlie]

27. Just peek at the link titles

in this collection of stories on the millenium terror efforts:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/global_alarm_subindex.html

You'll see a lot of behind-the-scenes work that we never heard about.

[leftofthedial]

31. Clinton's national security approach

was characterized by the de-emphasis of intelligence agents on the ground and the growth of technological sources. Under his watch, we also integrated our intelligence better with our allies.

He emphasized anti-terrorism, making it a top priority. The Clinton national security approach also involved great attention to the financial dealings of our enemies. As others have noted, the Bush regime actively discouraged the focus on terrorism, moving it to a back burner, defunding programs, ignoring the intelligence that was provided by the outgoing Clinton administration, and instructing the intelligence services to stop investigating the Saudis.

Effectiveness trumps funding. Clinton was effective at anti-terrorism.

[absolutezero]

32. compare the two

clinton actually worked on fighting terrorism...bush makes a fool of himself provoking it (BRING EM ON!)

the arguements these people love to make is that clinton rode on reagan's economy and screwed up bush's and that he killed the military and terrorism info funding...when in reality bush screwed the economy, security, and military....these morons refuse to admit it

of course in 2005 they'll say bush is responsible for the booming economy and awesome defense and antiterrorism system the dem in office will have set up

friggin re:puke:s

[demgrrrll]

34. I think Clinton mentioned that his administration stopped several attacks.

I do not recall anyone in the Bush administration making the same claim.

[Oilwellian]

33. Here ya go

National Defense
Overview -- The Administration is requesting $266 billion in discretionary budget authority (BA) and $260.1 billion in discretionary outlays for national defense in 1998. The request is about $130 million above the 1997 BA level (pre-rescission), but $8.6 billion below the 1997 outlay level.


--The President's request for 1998 is $6.5 billion higher in budget authority than he proposed for 1998 in last year's budget. $2.7 billion of this increase goes to the Department of Defense (DOD), $3.5 billion to the national security programs of the Department of Energy (DOE), and $300 million to the Coast Guard.



-- Over 1998-2002, the President proposes to add $19.1 billion in BA to the level he proposed for national defense last year. His plan exceeds the recommended level in last year's Republican budget resolution by $11.7 billion.



Pentagon Overview -- The DOD's 1998 request is $251.6 billion for BA and $248.4 billion in outlays. This request is $2.2 billion below the 1997 appropriated level (pre-rescission) in BA. However, the President's budget request is about $2.7 billion higher in BA than he proposed for 1998 in last year's budget.


1997 Rescission -- The Administration requests authority to rescind a total of $4.8 billion in 1997 DOD funding. $2.0 billion of this will be used to offset a supplemental appropriation package to fund the cost of extending U.S. forces in Bosnia. The remaining $2.8 billion is to be rescinded to conform to the Administration's ceiling for defense outlays in 1998. The specific programs to be rescinded will be identified at a later date.


Military Personnel -- The Administration's 1998 budget includes a 2.8 percent pay increase for military personnel, the highest amount allowed under current law. The total funding request for military personnel is $69.5 billion. Active duty end strength will be slightly reduced, going from 1.452 million personnel in 1997 to 1.431 million by the end of 1998.


Operation and Maintenance -- The Operation and Maintenance (O&M) request for 1998 is $93.7 billion, $800 million above the 1997 appropriated level (pre-rescission). O&M is the primary account for maintaining military readiness, and the request continues the Administration's emphasis on maintaining a high level of readiness. The "Overseas Contingency Operations Transfer Account" is funded at $1.5 billion for operations in Bosnia during 1998, and $700 million is included in the O&M accounts to pay for ongoing operations in the Persian Gulf.


Procurement -- The Administration's request is $42.6 billion for 1998, which is $1.6 billion below the 1997 appropriated level (pre-rescission) of $44.2 billion and $2.9 billion lower than the level the Administration projected last year for FY 1998. The DOD has set a procurement goal of $60 billion, which the Administration expects to reach in FY 2001. Over 1998-2002, the President has added $7.1 billion more to defense procurement than he planned in last year's budget to meet the procurement goal.


Research and Development -- The Administration requests $35.9 billion in research, development, test and evaluation funds in 1998, $700 million less than the 1997 appropriated level (pre-rescission).


Navy -- The Administration requests $2.3 billion for the lead ship of the new attack submarine (SSN) class, $311 million for design of the new SSN, and another $285 million for advanced procurement of new SSNs in 2000 and 2001. The request also includes $2.1 billion for 20 F-18 E/F Hornet (fighter) aircraft, $2.7 billion for three DDG-51 destroyers, and $472 million to purchase five V-22 Ospreys for the Marine Corps. The Navy's share of developing the Joint Strike Fighter is $449 million in 1998.


Air Force -- The President proposes $2.4 billion for nine C-17 Airlift planes, including $278 million in advance procurement to support 13 C-17's in 1999. Also requested is $2.1 billion in R&D for the F-22 fighter (and $81 million in advance procurement to support the purchase of the first two F-22's in 1999), and $157 million for the Airborne Laser. The Air Force's share of developing the Joint Strike Fighter is $458 million in 1998.


Army -- The request includes $282 million in R&D for the Comanche Helicopter and $211 million to purchase 18 Blackhawk utility helicopters.





Ballistic Missile Defense -- The budget requests a total of $3.4 billion for ballistic missile defense (BMD), $600 million less than the 1997 appropriated level (pre-rescission). Of this amount, $2.6 billion is for programs managed by the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO), $388 million is for BMD procurement, and the balance is for two Air Force programs, the Airborne Laser and the Space and Missile Tracking System.


--Of the $2.6 billion managed by BMDO, $2.1 billion is for development of systems to counter ballistic missiles that do not have intercontinental range, called "theater missile defense" (TMD) systems. $504 million is requested to support the "3 plus 3" program to develop and test a ground-based national missile defense (NMD) system by 2000 that could be deployed, if the threat warrants, in 2003 to protect against a limited number of intercontinental ballistic missiles.



Department of Energy -- Over 1998-2002, $10.5 billion in BA was added to the DOE's national security programs compared to the levels the President proposed in his budget last year. The request for DOE's national security programs in 1998 is $13.6 billion in BA, which is $3.5 billion higher than the President projected for 1998 in last year's budget. The 1998 increase is due primarily to the following:


-- $700 million to achieve the goal of $4 billion per year for stockpile stewardship, the program that ensures the continued safety and reliability of the nuclear arsenal in the absence of underground nuclear tests (the Administration considers funding for this program crucial to Senate ratification of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty);



-- $1.5 billion to fully fund large projects like the National Ignition Facility rather than the previous practice of incremental funding; and

-- $1.0 billion to fund privatization of environmental clean-up in which private contractors assume the risk of constructing hazardous waste treatment facilities in return for guaranteed future workloads.



Coast Guard -- The President proposes an additional $300 million for Coast Guard operations above the level he projected for 1998 in last year's budget. This funding continues in the outyears for a total of $1.5 billion over the 1998-2002 period.


Intelligence -- The Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency, and DOD's multiple intelligence agencies are funded within the National Defense accounts, but the total amount of funding for these agencies is classified.

http://www.house.gov/budget_democrats/pres_budgets/archives/pres98.htm

[aquart]

35. Did Clinton tell them to fire Arabic translators because they were gay?

Tell him the intelligence agencies had the info. A million or ten million more wouldn't have made people read memos they didn't want to read.

Tell them they have to decide if they want big government or small government. That should stop them dead. You can now start asking how comfortable they feel with Homeland Security while still having the CIA, FBI, etc. Do they feel ever so much safer? Isn't there an uncomfortable sensation of bloat? Does it help our security if old ladies aren't allowed to knit during a flight?

Republicans NEVER answer a pointed question. Why do you think you're obliged to? Move the line and attack.