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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 08:36 PM
Original message
Are we safer now that Saddam is in custody?
There are people who acknowledge that Bush lied to America about the Iraq war: lied about Saddam's WMDs, lied about the threat posed by Iraq, lied about the connection to Al Qiada, and lied about the costs involved – both monetarily and in human lives. Yet they still support the war. They say "The overthrow and capture of Saddam Hussein has made America safer and made the world safer. Isn't it better that this homicidal maniac is no longer in power? Isn't it a great step forward in the war on terrorism? Hasn’t Bush made us safer?"

Saddam is now in custody, yes. But, the world is not a safer place. The primary threat from Al Qiada is still there - Bush has done almost nothing to stem the tide of anti-American hatred surging through the Muslim world. Unbelievably, he has even added to it. After the attacks of Sept 11, America had the entire world behind us, willing to support us in nearly anything we did to destroy the Evil Doers that murdered 3000 people. Bush has totally squandered that outpouring of compassion and support. With his arrogance he has alienated our historic allies to the point where they look upon the warnings generated by our intelligence services as a way for the Bush administration to score political points domestically. And they'd be right. For the Bushies there's no distinction between policy and propaganda. The vast array of non-partisan gov't apparatus that has been carefully built up over the last fifty years, which was meant to provide professional, objective analysis on any number of various domestic and foreign areas of expertise. - has been co-opted to solely to support the narrow domestic agenda of the NeoCoservitive-Industrial Complex. And to hell with literally everything else.

Saddam is no longer a threat, yes. But, he wasn't a threat before the invasion. Saddam can no longer hatch plots with Osama. But, he wasn't doing that before the invasion, either. He can no longer indiscriminately murder his people. But, when he was doing that Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr were supporting him; they looked the other way and gave him more arms and money. Also, there have been more Iraqi civilians killed in the last several months since the invasion than in the prior twelve years since the first Gulf war. Iraqi civilians have more to fear from Bush Jr than they did from Saddam.

Bush has been distracted from his primary purpose as Commander-In-Chief - that is to protect American citizens from harm. His main objective as Commander-In-Chief should be to fight the very real terrorist threat which America and the civilized world must face together. But the NeoConservitive-Industrial Complex has other ideas. They've been planning the Iraq War for the last ten years with PNAC. The drums for war were beaten by the Right-Wing media. The fires of hatred for the Arab world were fanned by the "Christian" conservatives. War-profiteering corporations needed a pliable gov’t to involve with their ghoulish trade. The manufacturing of a war fell right in with their needs. And Bush is beholden to all of these groups for his current position.

I don't mean to excuse the behavior of Saddam. He is an evil man. However, there are many evil men in the world today, and it is the nature of the world is that evil men tend to seek power. If you need a boogey man to put on display to the world as an excuse for flexing our military muscle - there are better examples than Saddam Hussein. In Africa, in Central and South Asia, and yes - even in the Middle East.

I believe that the world IS a better place without Saddam in power. The United States created this monster, it's only fitting that we should be responsible for removing him - cleaning up the mess we made. But. . . There are better ways to remove filth which don't necessitate soiling yourself in the process. That would have been to act through the United Nations - maintain the UN Sanctions, support the UN weapons inspections, and negotiate with Saddam to get him to step down voluntarily in favor of democratic reforms. This most likely would have taken years - those who are impatient, with unrealistic expectations of diplomacy, would not have liked that. They prefer the quick, unsanitary way in which Bush acted.

In all our history, the better angels of our nature have abhorred the idea that we - as a nation dedicated to individual freedom - would descend to the level of barbarians and demean ourselves and our ideals by attacking a country which is weaker than us, which has not provoked us, which has done no harm to us or our allies, and which we had been able to keep in check indefinitely. Iraq was such a country. And we have destroyed it. Isn't it understandable to any rational person that people in the Arab world would want the American people to pay for the crimes of our present leader, just as Bush has made the Iraqi people suffer for the crimes of Saddam?

No, removing Saddam from power has not made America a safer place.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. i know that i am!!!
Edited on Mon Jan-05-04 08:45 PM by rchsod
yes ,i`m so much safer now and live with out the fear saddam knocking on my door trying to sell me magazines....
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. In Five Years, there will be a general consensus that "we" would
be better off had Saddam stayed in power.

Shiites are in the majority.

They will undoubtedly eventually elevate a mullah to be head the government, if the U.S. gives Iraqis any kind of real choice in their leadership.

Oil exports will be iffy, or used as a weapon against us, women will revert to being treated like crap, sharia law will be all the rage, etc.

We are, geopolitically, much worse off with the non-sectarian brute Saddam no longer in power. (But its not popular to say, I admit)
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. *kick*
a good read
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AromaticSocks Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. No, removing Saddam from power has not made America a safer place.
Fair enough.

What percentage of the electorate will feel the same next November?
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Given hundreds more dead GIs?
The same percent that's not completely stupid.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I think they are starting to figure it out
Hundreds of billions in our treasure being spent.

Soldiers dying and being maimed.....no flowers being thrown.

Gasoline prices going........up?
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not one damn iota
but hey, if it makes people sleep better at night...after they've tucked the covers around them, placed hands inside sheets and made sure no foot was hanging over the bed(least monsters under the bed grab them)..then well..uh......


lolololol.........sorry.

Yes, we are not safer...
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. Saddam captured, terror alert level: GREEN. What, you say
ORANGE???!!!
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Jen Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. A little safer.
I think Qaddafi and other countries that have financed terrorism in the past are laying lower.

But I also believe the best thing for the Middle East would have been to "let" Saddam take Kuwait. Saddam was educating his people, and creating the most Western society in the Middle East. Now the Shites have the trump card and they want revenge on the Sunni minority. If America ever leaves, Iraq will be a bloodbath worse than Rawanda.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Rummy's own words
Didn't he himself worry in his 'leaked' memo that we were creating more terrorists than we're catching?
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. We are definitely not safer. n/t
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think we are safer...
A potentially dangerous dictator like Saadam is better off out of power than in to power. HOWEVER, are we so much safer that it was worth spending hundreds of billions of dollars, the cost of hundreds of Americans and Iraqi lives, and ruining our diplomacy for years to come? Absolutely not!
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. we were safer before his capture
IMHO.

I think we have created another symbol of American misuse of power.

I hate all Saddam did and stood for, but removing him by killing 9 or 10 thousand civilians and invading a country based on lies was even worse than what he did.

I think the real enemies of America will be even bolder now.
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101 Proof Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. Fuck no...
Saddam never once threatened my freedoms nor liberties. All this bs that he was is pure bullshit. :grr:
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. not directly...
However as Democrats I believe we should be concerned with the well-being of other nations besides just ourselves. The Middle East, especially Israel, is safer with Saddam out of power.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. not contained from supporting terrorists
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. So why don't we arrest the Saudi Royal Family?
and invade Saudi Arabia?

One terrorist supporter is as good as another.

OOPS.

I forgot - the Saudi's are our friends.

Saddam was our friend at one time, too.

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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. the Saudi's connection to terrorism should be investigated
I'm completely in favor of that. The Saudis have however been more supportive of the war on terror than Iraq was.


"Since suicide bombers struck in Saudi Arabia itself on May 12, killing 34 people, security forces have moved aggressively, and often lethally, against suspected Qaeda sympathizers"

http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/EdDesk.nsf/0/f0fef00a769b7d3cca256d7800183129?OpenDocument
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Well, in lieu of bombing and invading everyone who supports terrorists
back to the issue at hand:

http://www.opednews.com/hackworth1203_saddam_in_slammer.htm

I think this country has set a dangerous precedent with this "preemptive" nonsense.

There are other ways to handle terrorists, and those who sponsor them.

And no, we are not safer. And no, Israel is not safer. And no, Palestine is not safer.

Safety can't be entrusted in the hands of murderous idiots.
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. well I'm sure the Middle East is better off with Saddam out of power
And even more safe if Iraq becomes a stable democracy. I know that's an unpopular opinion on DU.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. The question is, "are we safer"??
we, us, here, now................
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. it doesn't matter
We shouldn't just be concerned with ourselves, that's conservative.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. ok -- conservatively speaking
Edited on Wed Jan-07-04 06:39 PM by CatWoman
am "I" safer??

no.

conservatively speaking (SUPPORT THE TROOPS!!!), you hear about the 35 GI's who were blown up today?
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. are the troops safer now that Saddam is captured?
Yes.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. woops
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 10:22 AM by CatWoman
another helicopter downed...............
8 more dead.............................................
seems like the numbers have INCREASED since Saddam's capture......................

At least the Team Bush Weapons TaskForce will be safer -- they withdrew from the country along with the omission that there are NO WMD!!!!

Oops, again!!!!!!
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. someone said there are no WMD?
Are you using soldiers' deaths to prove a political point?
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. I'm using soldiers' death to prove
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 10:44 AM by CatWoman
that lives are being wasted, our future is being compromised, our stature in the world has been diminished all because of a lie.

A bald faced lie!!!!!

Iraq was an imminent threat!!!!!!

They had all of these horrible super-duper weapons!!!!

We had to invade -- quickly and indecisively.

And it was all a lie.

Those soldiers should not be dying trying to defend this lie.

Same for the innocent Iraqi citizens.

And NO ONE is safer as a consequence -- to get back to the subject of this thread.
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. who speaks for the soldiers?
Who said the soldiers in Iraq don't support what they're doing?
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. It's a soldier's duty to follow orders
That's not a strong argument. My nephew is there and many of his fellow soldiers feel strongly that this war is wrong. But they serve their country regardless.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. RR
I am a veteran myself -- and can fully attest to your words.
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. I'm sure there are soldiers who opposed it
But I know an ex-soldier whose service ended a month before Iraq who was upset because he had to stay home while other Marines he knew were going into Iraq. There are soldiers on both sides.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Being that they are so hard up for soldiers now
I can't imagine your friend having any difficulty reinserting himself into this war.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Let's go to the tape
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. yes and the same articles have quotes saying
That bitching and moaning about whether or not we should've gone into Iraq does no good.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I think it does a world of good
they are not blind dummies.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Bad argument.... Duct tape our months and follow the president
Edited on Thu Jan-08-04 12:12 PM by trumad
Wow... Imagine that mentality during the Viet Nam war... Instead of 50 thou on the wall we might have 100 thou.... Don't dare bitch and moan about an unjust war cause it does no good.:wtf:.. Dude you're simply lazy and so are your arguments. Shame on you for coming in here and spouting this nonsense. The problem with our country today is that Babe the Pig is running it and he's herding his sheep into a pen of slop.

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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Thank You, Trumad
Dissent is patriotic, after all. Imagine if we all just shut up and became a nation of sheeple like MysticMind says we should. Typical armchair warrior mentality...
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I didn't exactly say that
But please continue putting words into my mouth.
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. Not in the least, and probably less so; the misadministration tacitly
admitted that by raising the Terra Lert level.
Personally I think much of this hooha we are hearing on the 'news' about delayed flights, suspects, etc. is about as manufactured as Chimpy's little photo ops.
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Warren Stuart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
18. Ah yes the Lieberman defense
If you talk about the WMD lies, he changes the subject and claims that we are safer with Saddam in custody.

The real question is are we safer with an administration that has proven that it can manufacture a war based on flat out lies? Is the world safer?

We are not safer because there is no demonstrable threat that he posed tour nation. The world certainly does not feel safer with our reckless and irresponsible actions and will act accordingly.

Reckless and irresponsible? Yes! Going to war to topple a regime is a drastic step, and should only be taken as a last resort. It should be based on clearly identifiable goals and the positive results should be immediatly observed, to offset the negative results that are inevitible.

What is the benefit of Saddam in custody? How does this help the US?

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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. It actually hurst the US because knuckleheaded sheepsters
will vote for George Dubya Bush because of it, hence destroying our country for another 4 years.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. No
and Howard Dean was absolutely correct on this point.
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