I am a far left liberal who enthusiastically supports Dean-Some thoughts

[Northwind]

And guess what, I am under no illusion that he is as liberal as me! I KNOW he is more centrist. And right now, that is a good thing. The media has managed to demonize the word "liberal" to such an extant that people will shy away from far left liberalism even when they agree with its precepts. We need someone with broader support sop that we can gradually move public perception back towards an appreciation of the left. I think Dean is that someone.

Is Kucinich more liberal? Why, yes, he is, but I just do not see him inspiring the same passion among a broad range of people the way I do with Dean. I agree with Kucinich on just about every issue, but he does not even get me revved up. It would be ncie if elections were entirely about issues, but the fact is theyare not. Sorry, DK supporters, that is just my opinion, and I am glad people are supporting him, but I do not see him surviving the primary, although I hope he stays in the race all the way as far as he can go.

Gephardt, Edwards, Kerry? I like them on most issues. But I just do not see any real fire from them. They come off as a big ho-hum for me. This is not a slam on their supporters, but they just don't do anything for me personally.

Graham. Decent VP choice, not enough real fire and passion for the top job.

Leiberman? He comes off as slimy to me. I do not trust him. He inspires nothing but suspicion in me.

Sharpton and Mosley-Braunare simply not realistic candidates, and I think any clear thinkers here know that. Is that terrible? You bet it is, but we cannot remake the nation in one day, or even one year or even one decade. We have to work in the now or we become extinct.

At least some sense of pragmatism is absolutely essentialy right now. Idealism serves us well, but blind idealism will kill us. Liberalism is not going to experience a great renewal while people like Bush are in office, because as long as people like Bush are in offce they will stop at nothing to eradiucate it. If we blindly insist on an ideal at the expense of now, we kill the liberal ideal, forever. I hope we all keep this in mind while we discuss candidates. And more than anytyhing, I hope people will stop judging a candidate, ANY candidate, by the actions of some of his less discreet supporters.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

1. Thoughtful post . . . Dean is a good man.

But I think Kerry will win the nomination and go on to win the '04 election. Nothing against Dean, but he is being painted and defined as a far-left liberal in the press. It will be too late to redefine himself as a centrist for the general election.

[tpub]

2. Kerry's the one

He makes the votes for the liberals, but is seen as a centrist. His background as a Vietnam Vet and his foreign policy experience (18 years on Foreign Relations Committee and 6 years on Intelligence Committee) can't hurt. For those who still haven't heard: Kerry will begin campaigning in the fall.

[JohnKleeb]

4. Its true about Kerry

I could support him I would vote but I will be too young still.

[Ripley]

3. Nice post.

However for your efforts at expressing where you are coming from, you will be demonized here as one of those horrible Dean supporters. You will be condemned as an attacker (calling non-Dean supporters Chimp lovers) and as being so overzealous as to actually turn Dean supporters off.

SARCASM MODE NOW OFF.

As an independent for Dean I wish people could freely state why they support him (as you have) without being told we are OVER-KILL.

[Northwind]

6. For the record

I am also an independant. I dislike the entire concept of political parties and actually believe they should not be offically recognized. That being said, I have never voted for a Republican.

[blm]

5. Being pragmatic...

You don't see any advantage of a real liberal sitting back and letting the centrist get labeled the far lefty with the media, while he gets described as the more moderate of the two?

Kerry's campaign will kick in when he is good and ready to make his move in September.

It will be Kucinich in the long run who will effect the race in the most positive way, imo.

[Northwind]

8. I take you believe Kerry is a "real liberal"

What do think constitutes a liberal? I don't find him expecially liberal, but I am extremely far left. What do you think makes him a liberal?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. what makes Kerry a liberal? his record.

what makes Kerry a liberal? his record.

This page from vote-smart.org lists Kerry's ratings from various interest groups. I think this will give you a good idea of where Kerry fits into the political spectrum:

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0421103

there's just too much info here for me to summarize, you'll have to read it for yourself.

[blm]

25. His record

His lifetime voting record (17 yrs.) is just a 3% difference from Wellstone's. In fact, technically, Kerry's record is left of Kucinich's, but, that's because of the many cosmetic votes the GOP put up on abortion.

Kerry's environmental record is the best of all the candidates with Kucinich the next best.

His lifetime labor record is 91%.

[GumboYaYa]

26. I would be happy saying President Kerry.

It sure beats the alternative if Kerry is the dems nominee.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. Gephardt has the best chance of winning the general election

Dean just isn't electable. Even though he's rather conservative, he has no base in the party, and the issue he is known for - gay partnerships - just isn't going to be the popular issue with the majority of American voters.

Gephardt is socially liberal enough for our party - he's pro-choice and pro-LGBT - he has a huge base in the unions, and has an economic platform that MOST Americans will support.

[Northwind]

11. I think this stuff is what makes some Dean supporters so angry

Why is he not electable? What makes Gpehardt electable? Would it be missing that crucil overtime vote? I think that can sink him faster than nay anti-war talk or support of LGBT. When it comes right down to it, people will react more to you messing with their bank account than messing with someone else's private life.

What makes you think that the majority of Americans care one way or another about Gay marriage? Because a loud minority of bigoted a-holes screams against it? Because the media gives you dodgy polls telling you to be against it as well? I live in Texas, the buckle of the bible belt for gossake and the vast majority of people I know do not care about that issue unless they are gay themselves, and believe me most of my aquaintances do NOT consider themselves liberals. It is not the big issue for the general populace that the far-right want you to believe it is.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

15. exactly - pocketbook issues

And Gephardt is the ONLY top candidate that isn't following the DLC line - we need more outsourcing, more corporate trade agreements, and more corporate globalization. If Dean wasn't so right-wing on economic issues like JOBS, he would have a much better chance of winning the general election.

Talk to Republicans and "Reagan Democrats" - the issue they are talking about is their jobs.

Jobs is a winning issue for Democrats, but only if we are *different* than the Republicans on jobs, which except for Gephardt, Kucinich, Moseley-Braun, and Sharpton, Democrats aren't.

[osaMABUSh]

9. I agree with your assessment of the field. Can Dean win?

I like Dean very much but if he is not our best chance to take down Shrub then let whomever that is win the nomination. This country cannot survive 4 more years of *.

Frankly, only Kerry (and, I guess, Wesley Clark so everyone says here on DU) seems to have the resume and public persona required to kick *'s butt. Personally, I'm not sure Clark is the man - is he really nationally recoginizeable now?

I think Kerry and anybody wins and Dean + Graham can also beat *. Dean needs Graham to balance that "weak on security" argument we will hear.

My take is I think Dean is the best we have but Kerry presents our strongest candidate at the moment.

[monarch]

10. In complete agreement

Dean's campaign is what will win it. The campaign itself has been made the centerpiece and people have been flocking to it. What a relief after so many years of the cult of personality and charisma.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. Indeed there are more reasons to support a candidate

Indeed there are more reasons to support a candidate than because they agree with you. My own viewpoints are WAY more radical than those of any Democrat running for Prez. So what? This is about electing a President who will be a good leader for our country, not finding someone who agrees with me on every issue.

Kerry in 2004!

[Northwind]

14. See. I totally agree with that

I just happoen to think Dean is the btter choice, but you can bet your ass that if Kerry gets the nomination I will support him.

Nice name, by the way, Son of Finwe. :D

[ShimokitaJer]

13. Excellent post

And you've somehow managed to capture my own views almost perfectly.

Somehow many of the posters here have gotten the idea that if consider yourself a liberal, you would only support a candidate who is as liberal as yourself. If you don't agree with all of his (or her, Ms. Braun) policies, it is a betrayal of your principles. Thus, if you are a liberal and you support Dean then you must be either an opportunist or ignorant. Well, if I wait around for a candidate as liberal as I am, I'll be waiting a long time. I voted for Nader in 2000 because I didn't trust the campaign that was being run for Gore, and I'm happy I've found a decent Democratic candidate for 2004 who I trust and respect as much as I do Dean. That may make me less of a liberal in the eyes of some, but I'm going into this election with my eyes wide open.

[Northwind]

18. I think one big problem around here

...is the use of the word 'liberal." I think a lot of folks here think a liberal is someone who has a certain position on a long range of issues. A good example is the death penalty (which I personally do not support). Any argument about it devolves into people accusing anyone who does support it of not being a "true liberal." That would be like me saying that someone is not liberal unless they, like me, support the elimination of the recognition of property.

[The Stranger]

17. Not the man for the job.

Maybe 10 years ago, but Dean fails at these crucial issues in these crucial times.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0226-04.htm

[Northwind]

19. Crucial issues for whom?

Are you speaking for everyone or just yourself? Who decides what is a crucial issue?

[The Stranger]

28. From what part of world was the leader visiting the White House today?

What about the leader who flew in this morning to meet at the White House? What about last week -- from what region of the world was the leader who visited the White House last week? And where are U.S. troops currently being killed nearly daily? Where are they looking at invading next?

Certainly these can't be crucial issues -- the President spends so much time of the Nation's business on them!

[ShimokitaJer]

21. Actually, that's only one issue: Israel

You're missing the intent of the post completely by telling us that this single issue should be our litmus test for supporting Dean. Did you even read the post?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

20. Ditto!

Very well said! I watched Mosley-Braun on Cspan this morning, and she is the only other candidate who inspires me. I wish she had more of a chance, because I truly think she'd make an excellent President.

[GumboYaYa]

22. I am campaigning for Dean now.

Of all the candidates, Dean is the closest to my views on most issues and I hope he is our candidate. I do not buy the "unelectable" argument. In 1992 everyone said George Bush Sr. was unbeatable and we saw what happened to him. If it was possible to determine who is electable before an election, why do we ever have the elections.

If Dean is not the candidate, I am not opposed to any other candidates such that I could not support them, excluding Lieberman. I will campaign heartily for any other Democratic candidate in the main election except for Lieberman.

I'm getting tired of having to qualify my support of Dean with the caveat that I will vote for almost any Democratic candidate. Do we ask that of Kerry, Edwards, Graham, or Gephardt supporters on this board?

At the end of the day we all are on the same team. Let's not forget that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. I'm a leftist who supports dean tepidly.

There are things about him I don't like but, at least, he didn't openly support BushCorp's war like the Vichy Democrats (just saw that on another thread). So, I can vote for him. I would love to be able to vote for Kucinich, Sharpton, or Mosely-Braun in the general election, but I think it's just not to be.

I can hold my nose and vote for Dean. They don't build respirators big enough to get me to vote for the sellouts.

[Northwind]

24. *sigh*

[Lexingtonian]

27. take your time, the others will grow on you

I have to question your assumptions a little. You're pinning a lot on passion and on idealism. If someone like Bush can 'eradicate' idealism, was it really idealism or just an attitude of being benign?

I have to admit I don't find Dean's 'passion' persuasive. What he says is true and helpful, and maybe a lot of people need to hear it said, but it bothers me that it's all about recovering a status quo. It's a vision lacking in pertinent details, it's only about the day after tomorrow. I consistently get the feeling he's talking about an America as it was in 1996 or 1997 or so.

So there's a myopia that bothers me, and after watching him often enough I am convinced that he's not as strong inwardly as his supporters want to believe. He evidently misunderstands the relationship between strength and power; his notion of it works better the smaller his audience and turns weaker as ever larger numbers of people are involved. The more I've thought about it and watched him the less trust I feel that he'll be effective in Washington, no matter his claimed ideological positions.

If passion is at bottom willingness to die for something, commitment is at bottom willingness to live for and/or serve something. Not all politics has to work with great selfhonesty, but despite seeming the epitome of clarity the Dean approach seems to me to conflate passions and commitments to where everything folds into groupthink. The strategem of running against other groups of Democrats and Washington is the greatest example, of course.

So as far as I can tell, the suspicion shared by a good number of Dean critics is that the Dean political proposition seems to be not just small c conservative. Contrary to claims it seems to be incoherent intellectually and emotionally as well. So maybe these outbreaks of Deansanity/HoHosteria are an unavoidable and persistent phenomenon due to cognative dissonance at the movement's core.

[Eloriel]

29. Hmmmm

Talk about intellectual incoherence!

Eloriel