Question for the Married Men

[Sandpiper]

Particularly for married Christian men since it pertains to your faith.

In the Bible, Paul taught "the woman is to place herself under the authority of the man" in marriage and "is to subordinate herself to the husband."

Now, how many of you husbands out there consider your wife to be your subordinate or under your authority?


I think of my wife as my partner, my best friend, and my equal. I've never thought of her as being my lieutenant in any way.

[Walt Starr]

1. I may not qualify as I am a Pagan

I follow a matrifocal tradition. My wife and I are equal partners.

[Elbowroom]

2. do you happen to know the verses

I would like to see these verses for myself.

I am newly married and I joke with my wife by saying "submit to the kitchen" all the time. (Some of you may remember the Daily Show clip.)

[Sandpiper]

6. From the King James Version

Ephesians - Chapter 5:22-24

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the bhead of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.


Colossians – Chapter 3:18

18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.


First Corinthians - Chapter 11:3

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

[GiovanniC]

29. This Site Illustrates It Perfectly

http://www.thebricktestament.com/epistles_of_paul/instructions_for_women/ep05_22-23.html

Browse the rest of the site... it illustrates several pieces of the Bible and is funny if for no other reason than the medium they use in which to do it.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Yeah, Right.

Paul obviously never met my wife. "Lieutenant"? She's the General.

Anyway, I place exactly as much stock in that Bible sentence as I do the entire rest of that rambling, nonsensical, 2000-year-old-book. Which is to say, precisely none. For metaphysical inspiration, if I have to go to a major "religious" text, I occasionally the Tao Te Ching thought provoking-- but that's about it.

Oh, wait- you said "married Christian men". Sorry. Obviously that's not me.

[hughee99]

4. My wife does what I tell her to, AND LIKES IT!

And slowly poisons my food... Just kidding. As a married christian (though not terribly religious), I think of my wife as an equal.

[markses]

5. The flaw in your question

It requires conscious awareness of an equality. There are many productions of subordination between husbands and wives which are not at all conscious, but rather follow larger cultural patterns and seem almost natural. Most men would deny consciously subordinating their female spouse, and yet their marriages remain organized along lines of cultural power that divide roles in particular ways, call for particular tones of voice or affectively inflected responses. These have nothing to do with an "awareness" or whether people "consider their spouses" to be subordinate. Subordination is produced by a thousand cuts, as it were, all of which have much more to do with the way gender is organized in our society than with the individual opinions of any particular married couple.

[redqueen]

25. Oh good point

I read somehwere that even if they also have full-time jobs, many wives still do the majority of housework, budgeting, childcare, etc. - not just here -every country in the world.

*sigh*

[yella_dawg]

7. My psychotic fundie brother

honestly believes that the only way a woman can live a fulfilling life is to be subordinate to a husband. Something about the structure of the universe or something. He gets a little vague when I try to get details.

[arbusto_baboso]

8. If you're married and believe her your subordinate, you won't be married

for very long. It's as simple as that. Unless you've got a repuke stepford woman.

[Sandpiper]

11. I agree

Small wonder that Paul wasn't married.

[atreides1]

9. I Always Get The Last Word

"Yes Dear"

[FlaGranny]

10. I'm going to answer for my husband.

He was raised as a strict Catholic at a time when this was not much questioned. If you ask him, he'll tell you that women shouldn't hold certain jobs, and women should keep house and act like "little homemakers." This would completely infuriate me EXCEPT that his actions say the opposite. Deep down inside is where it counts and actions DO speak louder than words. His actions say he is open minded, respects women, and considers them equals. I know other men who are like this too. Some of the older fellas you shouldn't ask, you should just observe.

[nono]

12. My wife has brrn my partner for

42 years now. I like it this way.

[mmonk]

13. #1

Paul wasn't Jesus of Nazareth. 2nd, I don't take all the writings and letters of the bible literally. So no, my spouse is not in a subordinated role.

[Sandpiper]

15. I understand that there are many Christians

Who, like yourself, do not take the bible literally.

On the other hand, there are also many Christians who do take the bible quite literally, and believe that women should have no further ambitions than cooking meals and popping out babies.

[TX-RAT]

14. Paul wasn't married to a half Mexican half German woman.

30 plus years and i still fear her.

[NewJeffCT]

17. LOL

My wife is Chinese, and I always say that "Chinese Dragon Lady" stereotype is not really a stereotype - it's just a slight exaggeration.

[Mandate My Ass]

20. ROFL, I bet there weren't many of those

(half German half Mexican women) hitching a ride on the road to Damascus.

Paul wasn't married, nuff said.

[NewJeffCT]

16. in my household, I have very little authority (I'm a married male)

Old joke -
Q: Why do married men make the best soldiers?
A: They're used to following orders.

I know very few women, devout Christians or not, that consider themselves subordinate to their husbands. And, I don't hang out with a particularly radical crowd or anything.

I've heard many men refer to their wives as "the Boss" or something similar.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

18. I'm no Christian

And regarding that particular verse, I'm even LESS Christian than I typically am.

[One_Life_To_Give]

19. It depends

As a Christian man it is not for me to make my wife subservient. It is for her "to subordinate herself to the husband." (me)

And if I allow/expect her to remain there then I am the bigger fool.

[Skittles]

21. those wives who follow the Bible's advice

are the ones who end up in shelters.

[TransitJohn]

22. That's easy.

I look at marriage like I look at the chicken pox. I've had it once, and I shouldn't get it again.

[Bandit]

23. Barefoot and Pregnant and ten steps behind the Man

Is there any other way? :shrug:

[Mari333]

24. Woemn arent buying that line anymore...

http://www.divorcereform.org/mel/rbaptisthigh.html

Baptists have highest divorce rate in the nation.

[redqueen]

26. Good find!

How predictable.

[SnowGoose]

27. The bible *also* says:

In I Corinthians 14,

"(34)As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. (35)If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
(36)Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? (37)If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. (38)If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored."

That's nice. I when fundies insist that they follow the bible's teachings, I always like to ask them if they permit their women to speak in church.

Notice also that this isn't some dust old testament thing (as christians like to duck out of uncomfortable circumstances by saying that everything changed at the crucifixion). This is new testament, and is *explicitly* said to be the "lord's command" rather than just some cultural eccentricity.

Nice religion - I just wouldn't want my daughter to date one.

[Jose Diablo]

28. I consider my wife to be

my other side. I think of us as really a single soul with two bodies. We have been married a long time (37 years). We share expressions, in some respects we even resemble each other.

I think in the scriptures where it speaks of a man and wife as being the of the same flesh is true. She is me and I am her.

As for my being "under my authority", LOL thats rich. In the early years of our marriage there was a struggle for dominance. The struggle has been over for many years. I am not sure who 'won'. I think she did, but I'm not sure.

[RummyTheDummy]

30. Subordinate?LMAO

Mine would serve up my head on a silver platter.

[GumboYaYa]

32. Mine too!

[skippysmom]

31. If my husband even tried to make me subordinate

I'd kick his ass.

We're equal partners. No more, no less.

[Redleg]

33. It is my holy duty to dominate my wife and use her for my own ends.

And for some reason she is now asking for a divorce while pointing a .357 mag. at my balls.

[trof]

34. "Do you LET him do that?"

Question another woman asked my wife.
I don't remember what it was she was "letting" me do.

Bless her great big sweet heart, she said "Well, I've never 'let' him do anything. He doesn't 'let' me do things. We're both grownups and we just don't have that kind of relationship."

That's about it. If either one of us has strong feelings about what the other does or plans, we sit down and talk it over. Most of the time there's some kind of compromise, or one of us will abandon whatever it was when we find out how strongly our partner feels about it, or (as it usually happens) once the reasons are explained the objection is withdrawn. Happily we see pretty much eye-to-eye on most things.

We each get a vote and neither has veto power.
I guess we have a democratic partnership.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

35. Next line - "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church"

I don't get so hung up on scripture, the ignorance of the time it was written is infused into it. Hell it wasn't till the 19th century that scientists learned that women played more of a bioogical role in childbirth than simply a vessel. Until then sperm was known as a humunculus or a tiny unformed person and a womans womb was just a vessel.

[PurityOfEssence]

36. For the heathens here:

Been together 15 years, first mortgage together 13 years ago, first child 7 years ago, married almost 5 years ago, second child 4 years ago.

Neither of us is religious (she's more healthy about it, just considering it unimportant, I'm pretty anti-religious) and we have pretty much true equality. We don't fight much, both work, divide the mutual chores based on ability and likes/dislikes, both have a strong hand in raising the short guys, and don't hide things from each other. She's not the boss, and neither am I. I consider there to be very little difference between the sexes, and most of that is undercut by various characteristics of individuals.

We got lucky.

Hell, I certainly did.

Subservience or any assumptions based on gender are sheer stupidity and extreme bigotry; they're just another set of excuses to dismiss a vast group of "others" and stave off the terrifying specter of "thinking".

Any religion that uses the god excuse to enslave or marginalize people should be left immediately; there are plenty of sects in the vast cacophony that is modern Christianity, and I'm sure a proper one can be found.

Sexisim is bigotry, and bigotry is anti-democratic.

Remember, though: racists aren't all white, sexists aren't all male and orientation bigots aren't all straight. There's plenty of blame to go around, and none of us is "clean"; admission of such is a sign of enlightenment. (So with that self-glorifying compliment, I'll go bother some other thread...)

[Stuckinthebush]

37. Paul was a bonehead

He also lived some 2000 years ago in a very male oriented society.

Oh, and did I mention that he was a bonehead?

[BiggJawn]

38. It was the other way around

In my last family, it was the Husband's duty to go out and kill himself working multiple jobs so the wife could sit at home and carp at him for being too tired all the time...
It's how my MIL treated her husband, who retreated into a bottle to drown out her non-stop carping and nagging, and in retrospect, it was actually a kindness to kick me to the curb and spare me that fate.

Unfortunately, that did a number on me and left me with some heavy-duty trust issues. Been with the same partner now for 6 years, but I don't trust her 100%. That's OK, she's got issues from her last relationship, too.

[Tsiyu]

39. Once and For All

The idea that a good "Christan" follows Paul's admonitions regarding a woman's subordination truly spells out the irrelevance of any Messiah.

In order to determine the "natural" state of man and woman, we would first need to examine the pre-apple-noshing status of Eve and Adam. There was no subordination clause in their relationship.

If Christ truly died to free men from bondage - from all sin (come, let us reason together and all that prophetic jazz) then even original sin (and its punishment) would be wiped clean.

Only AFTER the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was consumed did God command that Eve suffer painful childbirth and that "your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."

To the man he said, "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you....by the sweat of your brow you will eat your food."

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I know a lot of male fundies who work in air-conditioned offices and who don't know what sweat is. And we give women pain relief during chidbirth (as the mother of six I'm glad this commandment hasn't been enforced by an amendment to the Constitution). If we don't hold to every commandment in Genesis, we can't hold to any of it. And if we hold to any of it, Jesus didn't save anyone from anything.

I have yet to see a Christian explain this contradiction and double standard ( without quoting Paul, that is ).

[geniph]

40. Paul was the Antichrist

the one who presents a pleasing false face and completely subverts the message of Christ. The whole message of Christ boils down to love God, love yourself, and love others. Paul, on the other hand, is full of condemnations and prohibitions and injunctions about who is DOING IT WRONG.

Many modern Christians aren't any such thing. They're Paulists. They follow the false doctrine of the Antichrist. They've been snookered.

Look at the way Christ lived his own life. Does that sound like someone who would regard women as subordinate creatures, to remain silent and submissive?

[Sandpiper]

41. Delete

[funkybutt]

42. The Bible is literature

and shouldn't be taken literally. THere are really some terribly nasty things in there. Just remember...it was written by men. I think some people believe that god wrote it!

[Tsiyu]

43. Kick

What