Please see Eve Ensler's "The Good Body"

[noiretextatique]

I saw it Sunday in San Francisco.
A synopsis of what the show is about:

The Good Body is about the world-wide effort by women to make themselves beautiful according to the dictates of their culture. Ensler interviewed women from over 30 countries to discover how they mutilate and manipulate their bodies, from Western liposuction and Botox parties to the brass rings of Thailand's long-necked Padong people and the hijab (headscarf) of the Muslim world.

Here's an article about the show and Ensler
http://www.sfexaminer.com/article/index.cfm/i/062404a_ensler

Among the vignettes I found most interesting was Eve portraying a woman who had just had breast implants. She eventually married her plastic surgeon, and he redid her entire body.

In addtion to seeing "The Good Body" last week, I also saw "The Magdalene Sisters" and "Kadosh" on video...so I'm in no mood for comments about "feminazis" and "infirmary feminists"...thank you.

I don't want to give anyway too many details for those of you who plan to see it, but I do want to be a a part of creating some discussions here about gender, "looks," and so on that are more meangingful than who is and who is not considered hot this week.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. God forbid you deny people their impulses and ask them to think

We have presidential candidates talking about haircuts...looks matter. Whatever you do, don't bother asking people to consider how it came to this.

[noiretextatique]

4. looks matter...expecially for women

when i was a pitzer, i remember women at least being aware of the cultural influences regarding how we should look, dress and act. not all of course, but many.

[Misunderestimator]

2. I appreciate the effort to have a serious dialogue, but you know

that it doesn't have a chance. There is SO much to discuss about what has been done in this country to shatter the stereotypes inflicted on us and move us forward to equality ... and is now shrinking back like a waning tide into the ocean of sexism. I'd comment more, but I'm already irritated today, and I have to run.

[noiretextatique]

5. i understand...after seeing this

"Kadosh" and "The Magdalene Sisters" all in one week...and of course seeing some posts here...I am pretty f'ng irritated myself.
still, i think so-called liberals should have more to say about gender than how hot someone is :shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

7. If it comes anywhere near me, I will go see it...

And thanks for posting it. And yeah, so-called liberals should be able to have a mature discussion on the subject. I hope that's possible around here soon.

[chicaloca]

3. Sounds like a good show....I hope it's playing in my area.

I also just read an article about this very subject in a local paper:

http://www.womenspress.com/newspaper/2004/2008plas.html

excerpt:

Jean Kilbourne, author of Can’t Buy My Love: How Advertising Changes the Way We Think and Feel, thinks that our eagerness to go under the knife is directly related to the unrealistic, digitally enhanced standard of female beauty held out to us by television, movies and magazines.

“There’s never been a time when the ideal image of beauty was more perfect or more tyrannical,” she said. “Young girls and women are surrounded thousands of times every day by women who are absolutely perfect, because they’ve been digitally created to be that way. The standard is so impossible now that it goes beyond anything we’ve had before.”

Teenagers and pre-teens are especially vulnerable, said Kilbourne. “The pressure is on girls at a younger and younger age to achieve this . Girls are being sexualized. You take this normal self-consciousness of adolescence, and today it’s 100 times worse than it’s ever been before, because girls are measuring themselves not against each other but against the girls they see on TV and movies. And I say this not just as a professional but as the mother of a 17-year-old girl.”

Despite her efforts to educate her daughter about the damaging effects of media images of women, Kilbourne said, the girl’s self-esteem took a nosedive when she became a teen—mostly because of how she felt about her body. Kilbourne places part of the blame on makeover shows like Fox’s “The Swan” and ABC’s “Extreme Makeover.”

[noiretextatique]

6. it is a good show...very inspiring for me

as a writer. and of course the subject matter is one that deserves a lot more attention and analysis.

[noiretextatique]

8. forgot to put something about hot chicks in my title

:shrug: it seems. this thread is not attractive because of that.

[noiretextatique]

9. kick

:kick:

[Misunderestimator]

16. Oh no... glad you didn't.... the most civil thread so far on the subject

[noiretextatique]

22. i was kidding, tee hee

this is an attractive thread :7

[chicaloca]

10. no kidding....

I've noticed in the last few years that every damn place I go, people suddenly feel entitled to comment on how I look, both positively and negatively. Apparently a size 6 is fat now -- Was anybody here aware of that? At least that's what guys on the street often say when I walk by. When the hell is this crap going to stop? Why the hell do I become public property every time I step outside of my apartment?

Grrr....Anyhow, I've got a meeting now. Hopefully I'll be back to vent some more.

[Kat45]

11. Thanks for the info, noireblu. I hadn't heard about this.

Although the only thing I know about the show is what I just read, I would guess that I agree with her point of view. I became totally self-conscious, feeling totally ugly, when I got to the age of being interested in boys. Unfortunately, that was accompanied by painful shyness, which I believe negatively affected the course of my life. If I hadn't been so shy, I would probably be living up to my potential, in the midst of a great career.

But I'm ok now. I'm no longer shy, and I no longer feel that looking 'perfect' is something that one must strive for.

[noiretextatique]

12. hi notmyprez...i used to be painfully shy also

and as i recall, i became more shy when i went through puberty. funny...i didn't remember that until reading your post...that my shyness increased as i developed into a young woman. not surprising, is it?
not really for me.
i hope you will see this...i imagine it will be freeing for a lot of women. thank you so much for responding.

[Bunny]

13. Sounds like a good show.

It's not likely to come here to Hooterville anytime soon, but if it does I'll go see it.

The body image topic is interesting. Our culture places such a huge emphasis on looks, and only looks. Intelligence, kindness, accomplishments, etc. don't really enter the picture anymore, or so it seems. As the size of the average woman has increased (size 14 now?), so has our obsession with body image.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to look your best. But our image of what is "best" has become so skewed, hardly anyone can possibly meet it without augmentation of some sort. And complete strangers feel no compunction about pointing out your physical flaws, to your face.

Not to veer into pop culture and the tabloids, but it's being reported that the one Olsen twin is in rehab for cocaine, not anorexia. Sources say she began the habit about a year ago (at age 17!) so she could stay slim. Now if someone who looked like her, pre-drugs, was concerned about weight, what hope does the average girl have of meeting this standard? Not much.

So many of the rudest comments here in the last week are symptomatic of these ideas, i.e, Cate Edwards is JUST hot, never mind that she's also a Princeton grad. Jenna Bush is "chubby". Kee-rist, if that woman is chubby then I'm a freaking blimp!! Jenna Bush could very well be a nice person with a big heart, but we may never know, because we can't get past discussing whether we'd "do" her.

Well, I went off on a tangent, again. Your original post is interesting, I'd love to see the show. It's a fascinating subject.

[noiretextatique]

14. hey bunnyj...thanks so much for your input

funny...my grandmother used to get on my case because i had gained some weight, but as my aunt mentioned, my grandmother was never smaller than a 14 until she got sick with cancer in her 70's...ironic.
i've heard that even young girls, as young as 9 and 10, are obessessed with size and dieting....clearly something's terribly amiss in this culture when normal development becomes something to control and limit.
*sigh* i still have a few friends who will not leave the house without makeup...not even just to step outside to get the paper. i try not to judge...but goddmanit...who in the hell makes up these rules of how women are supposed to look?!?!
i have a cousin who has been yo-yo dieting all her life...so much so, that she has a wardrobe in three different sizes. she like very expensive clothes, so you can imagine how much her little habit costs her.
my ultra-feminine friend just bought a harley, and some of her male friends find that terribly amusing...a WOMAN on a motorcycle? sheesh...what's the big f'ng deal with a woman riding a motorized vehicle that happens to have two wheels instead of four?!?

and the last tidbit for my rant: my female manager asked me to help a new temp with a project. he's an OBNOXIOUS loudmouth who is so busy talking over people (to show us how impressive his knowledge is) that he can't shut up long enough for me to train him.
he cannot STAND that i, a mere black woman, have more knowledge than he does...even though i've been here for 8 months :shrug: when i finally got him to shut up long enough to show him his mistake yesterday, he still couldn't acknowledge that he was doing it wrong. it's pathetic...from body image to expected gender roles...it all makes me what to :puke:

if the show doesn't come to your town, i'm sure it will be out on video eventuatlly like her first show "The Vagina Monologues."

[chicaloca]

15. Wow, that co-worker sounds frustrating as hell...

We have a guy who used to be like that where I work, but this is one of the few female-dominated places I've ever worked. After a few weeks of trying to butt into and dominate every conversation, he's finally learned that if he expects all our attention 24/7 we'll just ignore him -- and he's a much better person to work with now. Unfortunately, I know from experience that something like that is the exception rather than the rule.

[noiretextatique]

18. he's sooooooooooooooo ANNOYING

the only way i can communicate with him is to shout him down...luckily, i have no problem doing that after listening to him for five seconds :D
and you're right....he is the exception. most of the guys i work with are nothing like that. he's an older guy...i think he feels the need to dominate because of his personal issues...probably hasn't worked in a whil, and he's a CPA and i'm not, so i'm not supposed to know more than him. regardless...i don't like being bullied, and i tend to respond very directly to bullies.

[chicaloca]

17. ...

"There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to look your best. But our image of what is "best" has become so skewed, hardly anyone can possibly meet it without augmentation of some sort."

Exactly...I always hear these ridiculous statements froom lookist (can I make that into a word?) people who say that men go for gorgeous women and vice versa because of evolution, like they've somehow convinced themselves that an anorexic cocaine-addicted woman with low self-esteem will be better able to bear children. Um, sorry, but most of today's supermodels would fricking die if they had to give birth, they're so skinny and have so many other health problems. There's no bloody "biological" reason for today's beauty standards. Only malice and sadism.

And then I love that there's also the reverse -- if a woman is too skinny, she's ugly and/or anorexic (and ridiculed for her assumed anorexia, because apparently deadly diseases are funny).

[noiretextatique]

20. right, chicaloca...naturally small/thin women

are also ridculed and accused of being "wrong" in this culture...as you mentioned before, even at a size 6, some folks are still calling you "fat." :wtf:

[RebelOne]

19. The Magdalene Sisters infuriated me.

[noiretextatique]

21. me too...i was so furious after seeing that

i had to stay in the house the rest of the evening :grr:

[SarahB]

32. Me too

And very sad as well. :(

[m-jean03]

23. Sounds good, thanks for the heads up.

I hope that I get a chance to see it. I've spent my whole life trying to convince my friends to relax and stop worrying about their looks, weight and errant body hair so much. Of course maybe it's naturally easier for me because of the whole lesbian thing. I didn't ever have that real boy-crazed feeling that must make some girls feel pretty unhappy if they don't get any male attention.

I can understand their wish to live up to these glamourous ideals which really do look so fun and delicious on the television. Here is my feeling, though: women, especially hetero women, are encouraged by society to be "female" first and foremost, when what is considered "necessary" for succeeeding as that sex in this culture is *anything but* of primary importance.

Nearly everything marketed as "femininine" is artificial and extraneous to self-knowledge. I'm far from opposed to harmless acts of female beautification, but I think it's sad that so many women focus so exclusively on their appearance early on in life and so neglect to develop a strong inner life.

I think that with a strongly developed sense of self, acts of beautification can be harmless and non-addictive. But if you don't know who you are, you depend on your looks (which really can't be depended on) for your sense of self-confidence and identity, and you create an addiction to insecurity. This is the predicament of many women, I think.

[noiretextatique]

24. hi m-jean03...i was a lot like you

exempted from the female dilemma because of my dubious sexuality and fluid gender identification...and because i was intelligent and "artistic." and because my mother was crazy during the time i was going thru puberty. anyway...i seemed to miss out on a lot of the expectations, and i thought "secret woman stuff" that other girls, like my older sister, seemed to know instinctively. by the time i was about 10, i knew that i did not want to be married or have children...i was quite adamant about it, to the horror of some of my female relatives. "you don't know what you're saying...of course you want a husband and babies"...HA! it seems i was right all along :7 the marriages i saw: the women did most of the work, and the men had the option of sitting on their asses and doing nothing...i thought i was a pretty raw deal for the women. my dad was a pretty hard-working guy, but doing anything around the house was always optional for him...not so for my mother.

when i came out at 21, some of them claimed they knew all along (didn't stop them from trying to make me conform though).


i agree with you 100% about developing a strong sense of self and harmless beautification. i like clothes...i like being stylish, so i used to do a lot of different things with my hair. i don't think women should feel guilty about wanting to look good either...as long as its a conscious choice, and not driven by inscurity, the need for acceptance, and so on. i know plenty of women i would say this to: what's in your head should be more important than your hairstyle.

thanks for your comments.

[m-jean03]

25. Sure, those things float around in my head a lot

It's nice to air them and see how they look in type. :-)

I agree with the things you say, & we do sound like we are a lot alike in this regard.

:hi: Thanks again for bringing the topic up.

[tigereye]

26. hi MJ

this is a great thread. I loved the Vagina Monologues and think Eve Ensler is amazing in her ability to ask questions and translate topics that are seldom discussed in media or in entertainment or drama. I have told many freinds male and female that they should see the DVD or play. It is ironic that even on this board there is a divide, and not always a gender specific one, in terms of difficulty with analyzing women's body issues in a sophisticated way.

Sounds like a great show and I hope to see it sometime when it comes to the east coast.

BTW Noireblu, your sig is great.

[noiretextatique]

27. thanks, tigereye

someone here told me "noiretblu" means "pissed off" in colloquial french, so i think the flames are most appropriate :D
i appreciate the work ensler and others are doing...this is a much needed dialogue. for example, i didn't know that women in afghanistan couldn't eat ice cream...they are beaten, perhaps even executed for doing so.
the insanity of misogyny and other isms is a topic that women should never tire of dicussing, analyzing and sharing with people.
bill cosby said one thing i agree with during his recent tirades: it's time for a resurgence of the black power movement...a resurgence of the consciousness of self-love and respect. the same is true for the women's movement and feminism...time for another round of consciousness raising.
peace...and thanks for your comments.

[kitkatrose]

28. I feel so lucky

that I've developed the mindset to ignore or tune out popular media and their ridiculous images of beauty. I'm 19 and get to see the result of all of that conditioning in my friends. Constantly reassuring them that they're not fat is one of my favorite pastimes. :sigh: And they're not. Then I have to deal with them asking am I on a diet because I don't eat alot at meal times. Beside the fact that cafeteria food is gross, I eat lots of little meals, that's just the way I operate. And I happen to like vegetables, salads, and vegetarian dishes. :shrug:

Oddly enough, I had to fight with my mother, of all people, all during high school on my decision not to wear make up or dress up or wear something other than a pony tail. Every day I'd come downstairs and she'd get on my for not combing/curling my hair, not wearing the whole shebang of make up starting w/ foundation, not dressing "cute," etc. I looked just fine the way I was, just not up to her standard. I like being low-maintanence in my appearance. I have no objection to looking dressed up, just on my terms and definitely not everyday.

I think it's really sad that we as women do this to ourselves in the name of catching a guy (most often) or because "attractive" women don't get jobs. And I don't see what's attractive about the women in the media. To me most of them look really sad and hungry ;) and not balanced, body wise. I remember when Christina Aguilera put some weight on a couple of years ago and people made a fuss about it. I think she looks better now with it on, than before. She seemed happy about it, and I was glad that she didn't and hasn't taken it off. I wish more women had that attitude. I wonder why so many women succumb to media and cultural influences of beauty instead of their personal inner sense of beauty?

[noiretextatique]

29. good question

you touched on the answer, to some degree. a part of the problem is what's considered "the norm," and of course that varies, but women do perpetuate it. someone mentioned this in a thread last week...how women force their daughter's to have their genitals mutilated. of course this person failed to mention that this is a cultural norm that has everything to do with how what men find pleasurable and acceptable, so women who aren't mutliated aren't considered "normal" or "desirable." the same with foot-binding...and breast implants. women do act as agents and collaborators in perpetuating misogynistic practices, but the problem is with cultures that consider woman in her natural state "wrong."
and as long as "catching a man" is considered the ultimate prize, more valuable even than good self-esteem...some women will continue to value that mora than even themselves.

i am glad you have such a healthy sense of yourself, and that you are able to mirror that for your friends...and your mother. :toast: to you, kitkatrose.

[kitkatrose]

31. I remember that thread.

It was interesting to say the least.

women do act as agents and collaborators in perpetuating misogynistic practices, but the problem is with cultures that consider woman in her natural state "wrong."
and as long as "catching a man" is considered the ultimate prize, more valuable even than good self-esteem...some women will continue to value that mora than even themselves.


I wonder, more now that I'm actually reading up on women's studies and such, why women cooperate, perpetuate, and initiate in some cases these things against other women in the first place? I mean, what's in it for them? And I'm talking about in the beginning when it first started, as well as now, since most of us are aware of it. I remember reading somewhere, I think here, that when doing jury selection for rape cases, the prosecution is starting to choose men over women because women tend not to believe the victim. Because they want to believe that such things cannot happen or happen to them and theirs.

As to the last part about catching a man, I think that's the saddest thing I've ever read, that "catching a man" is the ultimate prize to someone, rather than self contentment. And in the black community, catching a "good black man." That one I've never really understood. Essence had an article about "Do black men still want us?" And they had tips on how to snare one and play the game, etc. But I kept thinking, if they don't want us, there's gobs of other races and cultures to try. Or even better, try wanting yourself first and then the rest will follow, so I'm told.

Thanks for the compliment. Kudos to you for starting this thread. :yourock:

[noiretextatique]

33. people are rewarded by conforming to the norm

in many ways. i have a friend who married a man, knowing she was a lesbian, in part because she experienced a kind of acceptance she never had as a lesbian. she thought she could change or repress her sexuality in exchange for those rewards...from her family, from her sub-culture (she's black), and from society. she got privileges and rewards from having a man in her life that she never got when she was with a woman.
she found that the price she had to pay by betraying herself was far greater than she bargained for.
most people don't like to rock the boat, male or female...i believe this is why people perpetuate a host of isms. and i don't think it's correct to assume that most of us are aware of it...at all. you know...among my friends, family, coworkers, and various other female associates, i call tell who has had some exposure to feminist thought and who hasn't. most people simply swallow conventional wisdom as gospel truth, including conventional wisdom about women, and their roles and responsibilities. perhaps the most damaging myth about women that many still swallow whole: the myth of adam and eve. eve fucked up everything, so women to be blamed and punished, in perpetuity, for that original sin. punishment...you hear that theme a lot when the subject of rape or abortion is discussed here. is it really surprising that women buy into this as much as they do...when so many are taught that they are to blame for everything?
it's not that a man can't control himself, or that he abuses power...it's "she shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt"...unfortunately, more often than not that is still the case. i'm sure you know black women like some of my female relatives who defend OJ by claiming that nicole was "a slut who deserved what she got." it doesn't surprise me at all that women are less sympathetic to the victims of crime.

considering the state of black womanhood (in terms of health, wealth, and status), i agree with you that that essence needs to have less articles about "how to catch a man" and more about "how to be a grown-up black woman," as jill nelson puts it.

more later...gotta get back to work :D

[kitkatrose]

34. Ah, yes, Adam and Eve.

I had a discussion about that. This guy was saying that women were weak and needed a man to control them cuz Eve gave in to the serpent. I asked him if Eve was so weak, what does that make Adam, since he listened to her? He didn't have a response for that one.

What really irritates me is our tendency to tear others down who are doing better than us. Instead of being happy for them, or building ourselves up, we have to bring them down to where we are or lower. And I've done the same thing, but am fortunately trying to correct that. I have to much to do myself without worrying about other people and what they do.

[kitkatrose]

30. Kick..

:kick: