Any women DUers been under anesthesia lately? . . .

[TeeYiYi]

I was SHOCKED to find this story. It's a year old but O_H__M_Y__G_A_W_D_!!! :wow:

Practice vs. Privacy on Pelvic Exams
Med Students' Training Intrusive and Needs Patient Consent, Activists Say

By Avram Goldstein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, May 10, 2003; Page A01

When Zahara Heckscher went to George Washington University Hospital last month to have an ovarian cyst removed, she asked her surgeon if medical students would be practicing pelvic exams on her while she was unconscious. She was shocked that the answer was yes.

Medical students, interns and residents at teaching hospitals across the nation routinely learn how to perform such examinations by practicing on patients under anesthesia, medical educators say, and GWU Hospital officials say their program is no exception.

"Everyone I spoke with there acknowledged they normally do that," Heckscher said. "I think it's just such a violation."

So the 38-year-old District woman wrote a note on her consent form forbidding anyone other than her attending physician to perform a pelvic exam on her while she was under anesthesia. On the way to the operating room, she mentioned it to everyone she encountered. "Some agreed with me, and a couple looked at me like I was a little bit crazy, but they said okay," she said.

Much much more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A36990-2003May9¬Found=true

TYY

[Nikia]

1. I had never thought about that

That's kind of scary.

[eyesroll]

2. Ick. You know, I'd probably consent if specifically asked, since pelvic

exams aren't risky and I'd be unconscious anyway. But they're not asking? And not telling? Ick.

I've, thankfully, only had minor, non-gynecological surgery under local-plus-IV anesthesia (whatever they called twilight sleep in the early 1990s), so I damn well would have noticed had this been done to me. But I'll be sure to ask in the future.

[jayavarman]

3. Pretty much par for the course at teaching hospitals

I had students there during my hernia surgery . . . . Seemed to be standard operating procedure! ;-)

[SarahB]

4. I've heard of this years ago.

It's the whole ethical/legal issue of informed consent. Often people sign a blanket form without being told much in the way of specifics. In my opinion, not conformed consent. If someone knows specifically what will happen and they consent, no problem, but medical professions IMHO are under an ethical obligation to relay the information.

[TrogL]

5. If you go to a teaching hospital, what do you expect?

I went in with a nasty cyst one time and there were five students crawling all over me.

[Susang]

9. To not have students feeling up my vagina without my consent

They were practicing pelvic exams, not just observing the procedure she was there for. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Trust me, teaching hospitals don't exactly give you a price break for subjecting you to their students. My doctor is out of Northwestern hospital in Chicago, and before that I was treated at the University of Michigan hospitals. Their fees are some of the highest in the country.

[chicaloca]

17. WTF?

Why the hell is that? If you go to a student hair salon, haircuts are insanely cheap -- like $11 per haircut, and they _don't_ do shit on people that they don't ask for (not that I'd mind in the case of a hair salon, but geez....)

Also, aren't most pelvic exams done on conscious women? Shouldn't these students, then, be learning them on conscious women so they know what might hurt and know how to deal with women who might be frightened of getting a pelvic exam?

:grr:

[Susang]

25. You got that right

Maybe that's why half the gynos I've been to didn't realize that they were hurting the crap out of me! Then couldn't figure out why I was flinching and saying "oww!", since, as one of them actually said to me, "I don't know why you're yelling, this doesn't hurt.". :wtf:

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. I had my daughter at a teaching hospital...wide awake...even the

cleaning people got a gander at me. But strangely, at the time, I could have been giving birth in the middle of Lambeau field and I could have cared less. I don't think they strayed too far from my gallbladder this last time. :hi:

[TeeYiYi]

7. Watching - Yes. Practicing on - Hell NO.

I think that when people go to a hospital, university or otherwise, they expect that their doctor and perhaps a few nurses and assistants will be doing the operating. If the university has a gallery in the OR for students to sit in and watch from — fine. But the idea that once under anesthesia my body becomes an undergrad gynecological free-for-all, crosses the line both ethically and morally. Probably legally. Where do they draw the line? The doc says, "Hey, I'll be up here cutting on the uterus for awhile, why don't you kids take this opportunity to poke around in the vagina . . . practice your speculum techniques or take a few scrapings of the cervix if you're up to it." "Don't forget to run a camera up the poop chute while you're down there . . . snap a few photos. It'll be good for a chuckle and you can put it on your Curriculum Vitae." Aaaaargh.

BTW--->> I'm just ranting at no one in particular, not at you MrsGrumpy. :hi:

TYY:grr:

[scarlet_owl]

8. That's scary.

I had a cyst removed last year. I'm pretty sure there were no students trying to study me, but then again, I do live in a college town.

[TeeYiYi]

10. kick

TYY:kick:

[MissMillie]

11. Do they practice rectal exams on the men?

Thanks for the heads-up. When I have my surgery in a few months, I'll make sure I specify that I don't want to be a practice dummy for this sort of thing.

[cmf]

12. That has been going on for a long time

I think that they should get specific written consent from the patients.

But of course, I wouldn't want to be awake for a pelvic exam done by someone who doesn't know how to do it. Ouch!

[skippysmom]

13. Ugh

I can't believe they thought they didn't need permission to poke around down there.

[supernova]

14. It's a teaching hospital

you not only get the Doctor you get his followers: students, interns, deputy surgeons.

I go to Duke and the only thing I ask is to meet everyone who will be working on me.

I once threw people out of my room b/c there were just too many of them.

[TeeYiYi]

15. I don't mind . . .

. . . if they want to watch. Grab some popcorn and sit in the gallery — knock yourself out.

It's this hands-on shit that bothers me. I doubt I'm the only who didn't know the students were doing more than just observing.

TYY

[supernova]

16. How do you think people learn?

I'm not being insulting. It's simply a matter of practicality, they have to learn somewhere, somehow. And simply sitting in the gallery doesn't cut it. No pun intended.

[chicaloca]

18. Sure they have to learn...

But I have a right to know that they're going to be learning on me. If they can't get enough women to volunteer for pelvic exams, I say they can start paying volunteers who agree to be their guinea pig. Even beauty companies who don't test on animals pay volunteers to have stuff done on them because all the things they have done aren't necessarily pleasant (but don't rise nearly to the unpleasant level of a pelvic exam).

[supernova]

19. Agree you have the right to know

who is going to be doing what on your unconscience body.

[TeeYiYi]

20. I guess my point was . . .

. . . that I don't think the majority of people realize they are being worked on by anyone other than their surgeon of choice and handful of assistants and nurses. I have no problem with the hands on training as long as the patient has been informed. My concern is that they're doing it outside of the patient's knowledge and consent.

TYY

[Bunny]

21. I have the right to consent to it.

Of course they have to learn, and I'd be more than glad to let them do it while I was under anesthesia, but they damn well better ask me first, AND tell me what they'll be doing, how many will be doing it, etc. I hardly think that's asking too much. And I would be curious to know if they do prostate exams on males who are under anesthesia. Hmmmm......

[SarahB]

23. Exactly

Informed consent is both an ethical and LEGAL(!!!) responsibility within medicine.

[TeeYiYi]

24. I'm not sure but . . .

. . . I think you may have made my point here.

When you threw people out of your room you were awake, in control and recognized the carnival atmosphere and put a stop to it.

Try doing that when you're under anesthesia.

TYY

[Samurai_Writer]

22. This is outrageous

This is akin to sexual assault, IMO, if they are not informing the woman and getting her consent beforehand. Not only that, but all women are different, and these students need to practice on a patient who is awake and can tell them if they are hurting her. I get PAP exams every six months. My cervix is extremely tilted backwards. I cannot tell you how many times I have left the doctor's office BLEEDING from a simple PAP test.

I also find it interesting that most of the respondents who say it's no big deal to examine an unconscious woman's vagina without her consent are men. Disgusting.

[Shakespeare]

26. This happened to me when I was 17 - during a laparoscopy.

The purpose of the laparoscopy was to investigate multiple ovarian cysts (ultimately resulting in my being diagnosed with PCOS). The procedure was supposed to last about 45 minutes. I was under anesthesia for over 3 hours, because they had med students observing the laparoscopy and doing "practice pelvics." It was only after my mother grilled the doctor (a woman, believe it or not) about why I'd been under for so long--my parents were scared silly because the operation was taking so long--that the doctor very bluntly and callously told her why.

This is a serious consent issue--always, always ask your surgeon if students will be in the OR. You have the autonomy as a patient to forbid this if you don't want them there.

That was 23 years ago, and I'm still mortified at the thought of what was done to me.

[TeeYiYi]

27. Even though you were being monitored . . .

. . . I feel that it was wreckless and dangerous to keep you under anesthesia for any longer than absolutely necessary to complete the surgery that you had requested. It's obvious that if you or your mother had been told in advance about the free-for-all with your vagina, you would NOT have consented. This borders on malpractice and wreckless endangerment. Twenty-three years ago — anesthesia was not without its faults.:grr:

TYY

[Shakespeare]

28. Tell me about it.

In retrospect, my mom is still pissed at herself for not looking into a lawsuit. I won't say the experience was like rape, but it's also not that far off from it, either.