Scientology anyone?

[Mizmoon]

Does anyone here know any Scientologists? Are they really as crazy as they are made out to be on the critic's websites?

[2Design]

1. tom cruise

[BlackVelvetElvis]

2. Yes.

I know a married couple who were really into it for a long time then backed off.
They said it helped them, even though it was expensive.

[rlev1223]

86. Stalkers

I now a guy who used to work at magazine that did an unflattering story on the Scientologists...he was hassled by them for months, phone call, scary mail, people following him on the street.

I can't say I know much about them otherwise, but his experience wasn't pleasant.

[AmyStrange]

3. The company I work for is owned by scientologist...

and like any group of people, some are nice and some are a-holes, and anyone who says they are ALL a-holes is an idiot,

d

[SmileyBoy]

11. You're pretty quick to defend Scientology.

Do you happen to be, as Tool put it, one of "L. Ron Hubbard's clones"???

[AmyStrange]

15. nope

I don't believe in ANY organized religion. They're ALL evil in my book,

d

[Archae]

38. Ask Paulette Cooper and Lisa McPhearson about Scientology.

1971
26 June - Susan Meister commits suicide aboard the Apollo.
Summer - Tower Publications, Inc., New York, published Cooper's book, "The Scandal of Scientology". Paulette Cooper:
The Scandal of Scientology
December - Church of Scientology of California vs. Paulette Cooper, et al., Los Angeles Superior Court, Docket No. C18558. Church sued Cooper and Tower Publications for $300,000 for "untrue, libelous and defamatory statements about the Church."
"The Mind Benders" by Cyril Vosper published by Neville, Spearman, London.

1972
30 March - Cooper sues Church for $15.4 million in damages in New York Supreme Court. Paul D. Rheingold was Cooper's attorney. Paulette Cooper vs. Church of Scientology of New York, et al., Supreme Court of State of New York, County of New York, Index No. 6732/72.

(Scientologists eventually settle out of court after key church leaders go to jail for stealing official documents)

1 April - Article about Cooper's lawsuit appears in New York Times.
7 November - Nibs records videotaped interview retracting his testimony against Hubbard in IRS trial. GO reports on Cooper:
September
October
November
6 December - Stationery stolen from Cooper's apartment by woman soliciting funds for United Farm Workers. Cooper resided at 16 East 80th St., NYC.
8 December - NY Church receives first bomb threat.
13 December - NY Church receives second bomb threat.
15 December - Cooper moves to new apartment at 300 E. 42nd St. FBI questions Cooper about bomb threats.

1973
4 February - Cooper's neighbors receive letter smearing Cooper.
9 May - Cooper indicted for bomb threats and perjury by federal grand jury.
19 May - Cooper arrested and arraigned.

October - Dr. David Codden administers sodium pentathol to Cooper and questions her regarding bomb threats. No written report is issued, according to Cooper.

October - U.S. Attorney agrees that if Cooper undergoes continuous psychiatric treatment for one year, government would file a Nolle Prosequi after the completion of therapy.

1974
February - Cooper begins work as stringer for the National Enquirer, which remains her major source of income through at least 1982.
3-7 March - Series of articles on Church of Scientology published in St. Louis Post- Dispatch. Eric, Nancy, and John McLean of Toronto, ex-Scientologists, interviewed for the series by reporter Elaine Viets.

May - Church of Scientology of California sues James E. Adams, Elaine Viets, Eric, Nancy, and John McLean, and Pulitzer Publishing Co. for defamation in California Superior Court.

9 May - Church of Scientology of California and U.S. Churches of Scientology dismissed from Cooper vs. Church of Scientology of New York, Index No. 6732/72.

1975
Cooper sued in Great Britain - Church of Scientology and Paulette Cooper (Spinster), High Court of Justice, Queen's Bench Division, No. 1975-C-No. 8345.
Church of Scientology of Detroit, Michigan, vs. Paulette Cooper and John Does and Mary Rowes, persons to be ascertained, U.S. District Court, Eastern District of Michigan, Southern Division, No. 75-70203.

February - March - Theft of Cooper's file from psychiatrist Dr. Stanley Cath's office in Belmont, MA.

25 March - Claims against the McLains in the Church of Scientology defamation lawsuit against St. Louis Post-Dispatch dismissed.

16 September - U.S. Attorney for Southern District of New York files a Nolle Prosequi which disposed of the indictment pending against Cooper.

(L. Ron Hubbard flees the country)


Scientology settled out of court the seven-year-old
wrongful death suit over Lisa McPherson. McPherson
was in Scientology custody when she died. The amount
of money Scientology had to fork over is not known.

RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT RESOURCE CENTER
Hal Mansfield, MA, Director
629 S Howes
Ft Collins, CO 80521
970-490-2032
E-mail: [e-mail]

[AmyStrange]

45. ask Bush about Christianity and OBL about Islam...

all religions have nutjobs associated with it...

d

[Xithras]

4. Many Scientologiests are normal, but the "Religion" is just fruity

I've read Dianetics, and just can't figure out how they manage to scam in so many famous and seemingly intelligent people. There are stranger belief systems, but not many.

[lapfog_1]

5. What do you expect from a religion based on

a bar bet between two SciFi authors?

[AmyStrange]

7. not true...

all lies

[Caution]

do some reading

http://www.xenu.net

http://www.factnet.org

http://www.lisamcpherson.org

There are many more. Scientology is nothing more than a money making scam which endangers its members. Just like anything else it is more damaging to some than others. But to dismiss all of the criticism of this cult as lies is simply short-sighted

Edit: corrected broken link

[johnnie]

16. The Lisa Mcpherson case was a tragedy....n/t

[AmyStrange]

19. Joan of Arc and Bush are tragedies also (n/t)

[johnnie]

20. You believe what they tell you..

....and I'll believe what I believe. I personally don't give a shit about that certain cult either way.

[AmyStrange]

24. agreed...

I like the UFO aspect of scientology, but the rest is just plain silly - in my opinion - but not too much sillier than alot of other organized relions - even christianity,

d

[AmyStrange]

17. almost ALL organized religions...

are money making scams. I probably know more about scientology than you and a lot of other "so-called" cults" and most of the info is biased and mostly prejudicial lies,

d

[Caution]

25. i suppose it's possible that you know more about $cientology than me

but I seriously doubt it. I've read mos tof the original Hubbard books (prior to the later revisions when they converted his "science" and "tech" into a "religion", I've read nearly all fo the court affidavits (in cases that were *won* by those criticizing scientology), I've read all of the OT course work as well as the NOT course work. I've also read a few books written about scientology, spoken to a number of current and ex scientologists and feel like I have a pretty good handle on it.

most of the info is biased. But then why shouldnt it be? when something is wrong and bad for those involved it should be exposed as such. As far as being lies, well yes, pretty much everything Hubbard ever wrote regarding scientology was fiction.

[AmyStrange]

28. almost all religions are fiction...

if you think about it and no one will know for sure until they die.

There aren't many religions around that don't believe all the other religions (besides theres) isn't the ONE and ONLY true religion. THAT is the ultimate fiction, because only one is telling the REAL truth,

d

[Caution]

32. yes but not all religions do the following

sue anyone who criticizes it
has the wife of the founder incarcerated for infiltrating the US Govt
has the son of the founder commit suicide
turns its members into paupers
uses its members for slave labor
tries to convince drug addicts that their dangerous purification ritual will cure their addiction
claim that their "sacred" texts are legally "trade secrets"
convince their members to alienate family if that family criticizes scientology in any way

i could go on but i'll leave it there.

obviously you have allowed yourself to justify working for a scientology company by choosing to believe that all religions are dangerous in the same way scientology is, which is your choice, but i think you should do some serious thinking about it. If you would like to continue the discussion i'd be happy to do so privately.

[AmyStrange]

34. some folks believe JC committed suicide...

truth is stranger than fiction sometimes,

d

[Caution]

36. and some believe he never existed in the first place

like myself. still doesnt change the fact that by today's standards, scientology is destructive whereas christianity is for the most part benign. (annoying, but still benign).

I'm just glad to continue to watch the decline of scientology into irrelevance and expect to see it disappear altogether within my lifetime.

[AmyStrange]

39. I would tend to believe you if it weren't for Bushie (n/t)

[philosophie_en_rose]

49. Bush doesn't define all churches.

Scientology is a heirarchical and strictly organized business. It attacks off shoot groups. There are a variety of Christian churches and not all of them are defined by Bush.

If there are other churches like Scientology, then that doesn't prove that Scientology is not destructive.

[AmyStrange]

55. again, that's my point...

some scientologist actions don't define all of scientology. To say it does is overgeneralizing,

s

[philosophie_en_rose]

73. But the organization is corrupt.

Scientology as an organization bankrupts and persecutes human beings. Whenever that happens by institution, it is wrong. The policies and practices of Scientology are vindictive and destructive, especially towards people with medical needs.

Say what you will, but Scientology is not like other churches.

[AmyStrange]

76. oh and the catholic church and christian coallition...

isn't corrupt hahahahahahahaha
try telling that to all the children who were attacked by paediphile priest and gays who want to get married,

d

[Djinn]

56. I'm an atheist

and no fan of any religion which as far as I can see have stories that are no more bizarre than scientology - virgin birth anyone? - I certainly think that Scientology seems a bit more coercive than mainstream monotheism but how do the celeb's who join not end up broke? or is there one rule for pleb members and another for well known types.

Either way I think it'll start dying out - next celeb cult craze seems to be the Kabalah

[Pithlet]

60. I am, too

However, there is a difference between Scientology and most other major religions in that it requires you to spend huge amounts of money, and shun friends and loved ones who are critical of Scientology. They are called "suppressive persons". It really is awful stuff. People go in to debt to the "church" for these courses that costs thousands of dollars.

You aren't required to pay any money to take any courses to be a Christian, for example. My Catholic mother in law wasn't pressured in any way to disown her son for lapsing. And in Scientology there is a difference in how the rich celebs are treated, and the little people. Scientology deliberately seeks out celebrities for market appeal. Often the VIPs aren't aware of how the regular people are treated. And it's all based on wacky stuff. The whole premise is based on a weird aliens-banished-to-earth story that you aren't allowed to know the details about until you've reached a certain level, thousands of dollars later, if you haven't completely bankrupted yourself by that point.

The good thing is, with the internet, people are getting wise to their scheme, which is hurting their recruiting. That's probably why they pressured Google to remove some sites that were badmouthing Scientology (Google has since restored them).

[lapfog_1]

23. Sure... you right, all lies

So like Robert A. didn't really write "The Sixth Column" later
retitled to "The Day After Tomorrow". And that novel didn't spark
a conversation at a SciFi convention between him a L. Ron (where
Robert was taking the "it's too fantastic to be real, that why it's
science FICTION" side and L. Ron was taking the "Yeah, people really
ARE that gullible, and I can PROVE it")... which was witnessed by
a number of other SciFi writers including a very young Harlan
Ellison.

Course, you've probably read "The Sixth Column" and don't see the
connection to Scientology. And the very NAME "Scientology" doesn't
mean anything...

Course, it might well be no more bogus than Christianity.

[AmyStrange]

31. true...

no more bogus than Christianity although JC was a pretty cool dude and is probably turning in his grave about Bush's using his name like he does - that is IF JC is really dead bwuhahahahahaha,

d

[Liberal Classic]

58. Read and learn

While the bar bet story cannot be verified, he definately said that the way to get rich was to start a religion.

http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm

One of the key differentiations between a religion and a cult is that real churches, mosques, temples do not try to stop you from leaving. Cults threaten, intimidate, and harass those people trying to get out cult as well as family members of those trying to get out.

[baldguy]

65. It is true.

Sam Moskowitz, Joe Haldeman, Theodore Sturgeon and most notably Hubbard's own son have made this accusation. The church has lost several lawsuits in United States, Germany, and Australia, and Hubbard himself had been convicted of plain fraud in France. At the time of his death, he was a fugitive.

[AmyStrange]

68. JC was executed for fraud...

which goes to show that just because some folks think you are a fraud don't automatically mean you are. Not saying that JC wasn't a fraud, but in the beginning many folks thought his religion was a cult and many people were executed for believing in it. Oh what a couple (two three four five etc) decades have done to change people's minds about JC.

Same might happen to Scientology and then again maybe not, but to condemn the whole thing (and thus ALL scientologist) because of a few idiots who took advantage is just as much idiotic as condemning ALL Christians because of George Bush or to condemn all Islam because of OBL.

Oh the irony of double hypocritical standards,

d

[AmyStrange]

10. no fruitier...

than any other organized religion. I kind of think it's cool that they believe in UFOs, but I agree that their e-meter is a little nutier than most religions, but so is eating a cracker that was turned into the body of Christ by a priest,

d

[Taverner]

6. I dated one in college

Wonderful girl who got sucked into the cult and irreperably damaged.

She thought it would help her music career, but all it ended up doing is wrecking her life and pushing away anyone close to her. Oh, and costing her mucho $$$.


http://www.xenu.net/ will tell you all you need to know

[AmyStrange]

8. sounds like Bush

and a lot of other right wing religious wackos,

d

[SmileyBoy]

9. Scientology is a cult.

Nothing more to be said.

[AmyStrange]

13. I think any organized religion is a cult...

and any oportunistic capitalistic deprogrammer will tell you the same thing,

d

[Caution]

21. If scientology qualified as a religion that is.

But any religion which actually has a hierarchical structure of levels reached based upon courses which must be paid for at an increasing scale sounds more like a business to me.

http://www.xenu.net/archive/prices.html

And paying over $150,000 to learn that Xenu needed to depopulate his galactic empire of some of the 178 billion people in it so he sent them to earth in DC-8 space planes and dropped them into volcanos and then blew them up with nuclear weapons, unfortunately these poor souls (called thetans) wanted to come back, so Xenu stuck them into a big movie theater and played them a bunch of films about god and the devil thus implanting memories into them. Because these souls all saw the same films they stuck together (literally) because they thought they were the same person. Now that you know this you can then start paying even more money to remove these souls because get what...they are stuck to you and you have to get rid of them because surprise surprise all the other stuff that was supposed to make you "clear" didnt actually work...its really these souls stuck to you causing all of your problems.

All lies? See the original documents in Hubbard's handwriting describing it....oh but beware...In order to protect the above great secret Hubbard tells anyone that to learn about the upper levels of scientology before you are ready (ie before you can afford to pay for it) that you will contract pneumonia and die. (btw, i've now known about this for over ten years and im still kicking around).

http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html

[SmileyBoy]

22. I don't have to pay an annual fee to be a Muslim.

Scientology is a scam-ridden cult. Religions like Islam, Christianity and Judaism are not.

[AmyStrange]

26. good for you...

I don't have to pay an annual fee to be an athiest and I know a lot of people who don't pay nothing to be a scientologist either,

d

[Mizmoon]

27. What about tithing?

Just playing devil's advocate.

[AmyStrange]

30. What about tithing?

What's that got to do with people believing in scientology?

d

[AmyStrange]

33. oooops sorry... thought you were responding to me (n/t)

[bloodyjack]

62. i thought muslims have to set aside 10% of their monthly income for

charitable causes. noy a BAD thing by any means. and not necessarily payment either, but you get the idea

[Dr Fate]

12. I always liked the "Space Tomatos"

L Ron Hobbard & his "Space Tomatos"

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

14. No thank you

I'm happy just being a human being with some spiritual beliefs. When we start getting into dogma, my eyes glaze over.

[jjmalonejr]

18. Several of my neighbors

I live in an apartment complex where several of my neighbors are involved in the Church of Scientology.

Most of them are just plain odd, but my next door neighbors (also the apartment complex property managers) are actually very nice people.

Several months ago, I overheard them having an argument several and listened in (we have thin walls). Apparently, people from the church have been stalking them, dropping by their apartment way too frequently and without invitation, most disturbingly when they know the parents won't be home but the kids will.

They both sounded a little freaked out by that (especially the husband, who was pretty hot about it), but they were also spouting all kinds of Scientology jargon that I've learned to recognize over time...indicating to me that even thought they are now having their doubts, they have had their minds completely fucked with.

I'm actually concerned, but I don't know what to do about it.

[eek]

44. such strong stuff but no suggestions for you!

Knowing that the sorta nice apartment managers next door may be in a bit of a tight spot - wow that must be troubling.

Do you know any social workers , nurses or whatnot?
Perhaps you might ask them about how they handle spousal abuse, abused and neglected children cases.
Betcha there are protocols as to how you might warm up the presumed abusee so you gain their trust.

Maybe there are websites about how to approach people you suspect are in trouble without scaring them away.

Best of luck !

PS: I am so frickin fascinated by the scientologists. It is the ol' watching a train wreck thing for me. Dunno why they freak me out so.
I love to get as much prurience candy as I can. Thanks for the fun thread!

[Archae]

29. Scientology is a scam.

Pure and simple.

[AmyStrange]

37. almost ALL organized religions are a scam...

now THAT's really pure and simple,

d

[SmileyBoy]

41. As a Muslim, I'm kinda offended by that remark...

I hardly would call my religion or any other monotheistic religion a "scam".

[AmyStrange]

46. you should be offended...

but until you can prove it's the one and only true religion... it's a scam... just like ALL organized religions,

d

[philosophie_en_rose]

50. You're overgeneralizing and wrong.

If someone has faith in something that is unproven, that doesn't make it a scam. If someone chooses to pay for something that is disproven, then it's still not a scam. Just misguided.

However, if someone is forced into a series of financial liabilities, slave labor, and legal liability - then it's a scam.

[AmyStrange]

52. nope I'm not wrong...

but you are if you think everyone in scientology is forced to be in scientology then you are wrong also and that's why it is no more a scam then any other religion:

History is ripe with examples of organized religion being used to scam people into continuing slavery, going to war, believing that banning gay marriage via ammending the constitution etc etc.

Not all religious folks fall for these scams just like not ALL scientologist fall for the scams that you suggest ALL scientologist do... and that is my point:

Personal religion isn't a scam, but most organized religions are because they try to guide their flock to do certain things in the name of their religion,

d

[AmyStrange]

57. on edit of my above message...

DU wouldn't let me edit my message even though I just posted it not more than ten minutes ago.

CHANGE: Personal religion isn't a scam, but most organized religions are because they try to guide their flock to do certain things in the name of their religion,

TO: Personal religion isn't a scam, but most organized religions are because they can be used by unsrcupulous folks to try to guide their flock to do certain things in the name of their religion,

d

[philosophie_en_rose]

74. You are trying to avoid the issues.

Not everyone is forced into scientology. However, there are many people that are forced to remain in scientology through excessive debts, legal threats, and stalking behavior.

It doesn't matter if a church lobbies its members to behave a certain way, but it does matter if a church preys upon the vulnerable for monetary gain.

This is not the same as all organized religion. It is the same as Pat Robertson's group and most televangelists, but even those groups don't enslave people on pseudomilitaristic ships.

[AmyStrange]

77. or if the church has a history of pedophile priest...

preying upon the vulnerable or if christian coalition doesn't petition the government to take away a gay's right to marry.

That's ok I guess as long as it isn't monetary it's ok,

d

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SmileyBoy]

63. Thank you.

I didn't want to reply to that crrrrrrrap.

[AmyStrange]

66. Thank you...

crap is in the eye of the beholder and some beholders can see the crap in other folks eyes while at the same time ignoring the crap in their own eyes,

d

[Pithlet]

35. Scientology is pure evil

It isn't a religion, it is a giant, soul sucking, family destroying, killer cult. I don't always fault those that join as they are often not aware of the evils. But the cult itself and its leaders are scum of the earth.

[AmyStrange]

40. So is Bushies use of Christianity...

like ALL religions it has good and bad people,

d

[Pithlet]

43. I didn't mean that all scientologists are bad people.

It is the orginization itself that I have huge problem with.

[AmyStrange]

47. I apologize then...

I'm with you on the organized part,

d

[philosophie_en_rose]

48. Bush is not a defense of scientology.

If there are people that can be scientologists without spiritual and financial ruin, then good for them.

However, I have personally seen people ruined through scientology. The church is worse than a thousand car salesmen. It never leaves people alone, even when it urges family members to shun ex-members. It's lawsuit happy and vicious to critics. The worse Pat Robertson will due to individual heathens (like me) is pray for us. He's not going to sue us for infringing upon the copyright of the Bible.

Scientologists can believe what they like, obviously. However, the so-called church is really a business and not a religion.

Bush is not a defense of Scientology. Even if other churches were as corrupt (and they aren't), one crime does not excuse another.

[AmyStrange]

54. that's my point...

some scientologist doesn't define ALL scientologist,

d

[philosophie_en_rose]

75. You're missing my point.

Bush does not define Christianity. Individual scientologists don't define scientology.

However, Scientology defines Scientology. And the practices of scientolgy as an organization are authoritarian and corrupt. It has nothing to do with whether or not people hug kittens or steal elections. It's about the group. And any group that behaves like scientology the organization behaves is vile.

[AmyStrange]

78. we're both missing each other's point...

how more authoritarian can anyone get than president of a country and tries to push legislators to make laws that take away the rights of a whole a group (gay's right to marriage) that an organized religion like christianity advocates.

Atleast scientology doesn't go that far and in the largers scheme of things christianities advocation of banning gay marriage is worse - in my opinion,

d

[MissAnnThrope]

42. Let's See...

I've had run ins with a few. Mostly from when I used to post to alt.religion.scientology. They try to handle the critics. A good number of the critics you see there and on critical pages are ex-Scientologists who refuse to shut up.

The die hards in the church can be crazy. The people who write to handle critics can be crazy. I remember one post I made back around 95 or 96 when someone shot up a mission in Portland. So many posts from Scientologists blaming the critics for the shooting. Mind you, the guy who shot the place up was taking auditing, but ran out of money. He was a psychotic, but as they don't believe in psychiatry, he wasn't taking any meds for his mental disorder.

Anyway, I asked if they believe when bad things happen, you've pulled them in on yourself, how could they blame us in the newsgroup for it? I was told, the mission members DID pull it in on themselves, that they obviously had overts and withholds. But that they wouldn't have them if the critics of the cult weren't so vocal. I so wish that computer hadn't crashed and I still had the email.

So yeah, based on how they tried to handle me, even though I wasn't that vocal a poster and how I got that email, which literally blew my mind, I would say most of them are that crazy.

[mia]

51. I know a Scientology family .

About 25 years ago they joined and even sent their kids to a Scientology school. I knew them well before then, and couldn't figure out why well-educated people with great jobs would get involved with something like that. I looked into it, shortly after they joined, taking a few basic $20 mini-courses, a little auditing, and something called a "student hat".

It was an interesting experience, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who is having emotional difficulties or who can't afford to pay for it up front. People get up to their necks in debt to the organization, and work like slaves to pay it off. I met people who lived 8 to a one bedroom apartment, and worked 16 hour days. The fact that they are paid according to a rigid statistical method means that they keep having to do better and better which, I think, may lead some people to do some desperate unethical things to keep their "stats up".

Now I'm thinking of more negatives that I observed back then, especially the way some Scientologists encourage people to disengage from friends and family members who object to Scientology - calling them "suppresives". Apart from that, I dislike Hubbard's writing style and the emphasis on past lives.

I still think highly of my friends though. They and their kids are still Scientologists and are sane and as kind as ever.

Gulp, did I drink the koolaid?
Maybe I'll take a look at the critics' websites.

Edit: After posting this I read all the messages that had been added
since I started thinking about this topic. Lot's of enlighting information in this thread.

[neverborn]

53. Scientology is EVIL.

www.xenu.com

[DrWeird]

59. Religion according to Dr. Weird.

OK, you start off with con-men, like hustlers and pyramid schemers.

Then you get up to seedy astrologers, the kind that are just in it for the money.

Then you get to astrologers, people who actually believe the stuff, but are all independant of each other and relatively unorganized.

Then you start getting organized, start establishing seniority and some kind of power system, and you've got yourself a cult. Like the Branch Davidians, or Heaven's Gate.

Then, if your cult doesn't kill a bunch of people, or itself, for a few decades, and you grow a bit, then you've got Scientology.

After a hundred and fifty years, the original nutty stuff (i.e. polygamy, outright bigotry, kooky practices like holy underwear) is still there, but toned down a bit. The more mainstream it becomes the more followers you attract, so you end up with something like mormonism.

After several hundred years you're a major world religion, and still growing. Islam, for instance. And there really is a surprising amount in common between Mormonism and Islam.

If you've been around long enough, most of the original traditions and rituals are gone, but hey, you can always come up with new ones. Like Christianity, and christmas trees. Or patron saints, Catholicism has a lot in commmon with polytheistic religions, like Hinduism.

All in all, it's pretty much the same stuff. It's just some of it has been around longer than the other stuff.

[AmyStrange]

67. That is so true Dr. Weird...

Well said.

Some folks (unfortuinately) are more interested in complaining about the splinter in their neighbor's eye while ignoring the log in their own,

d

[truthspeaker]

64. it's a cult, big time

It's all about charging people money for "treatments" that don't do anything.

[Shakespeare]

69. Aside from the great xenu.net site, check this out.

A great (and occasionally funny) first-person account written by a friend of mine, first published in the now-defunct Spy magazine. He's spent years going after them, and is one of the few writers who hasn't been harassed into silence by them. A&E also ran an excellent 2-hour expose of them several years ago, re-run once in awhile.

http://www.drasticmedia.com/Scientology.html

Yeah, they're a cult. Equating them to other forms of religion is laughable.

[Liberal Classic]

71. Equating them to other forms of religion is more than laughable

Equating it to other religions, or knocking down other religions in order to establish moral equivalence between them and scientology makes me highly suspicious. Calling Yeshua or Mohammad frauds and scammers would seem to be for no other purpose than knocking them down to prop up scientology. In fact, I would call it scientology apologism.

Real religions, such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism do not charge adherents admission to hear the message of the faith. Cults, such as Hubbard's scientology and maharishi Mahesh Yogi's transcendental meditation, do charge their members to further themselves in the message of the faith. Real religions do not isolate members from their families, cults do. Religions do not attempt to use brainwashing techniques on members, cults do. Real religions to not threaten and intimidate members and the families of members when someone tries to leave the faith, cults do.

[AmyStrange]

79. I'm not bashing personal religion...

or Yeshua or Mohammad or JC, but the organizational religions that were built up around them. Many (if not most) of them pretend they are the final word of what their messiahs had meant in their teachings and that's where the fraud and scam lays,

d

[Liberal Classic]

82. I am afraid that I wholeheartedly disagree

I'm not bashing personal religion... or Yeshua or Mohammad or JC, but the organizational religions that were built up around them. Many (if not most) of them pretend they are the final word of what their messiahs had meant in their teachings and that's where the fraud and scam lays,

I said absolutely nothing about a religion claiming exclusivity in their teachings as being a hallmark of a cult.

In my opinion, you are deconstructing other faiths for the purpose of validating the scientology cult.

I believe that you are being a scientologist apologist.

[AmyStrange]

84. you are wrong

I am not deconstructing faith but organized faiths. I am not being a scientologist apologist, but pointing out that all scientologist are not crazy like the original poster asked.

Everyone else here took it upon themselves to bash the religion which wasn't what the original poster asked. I merely am merely mirroring the bashing of one organized religiom to show that ALMOST ALL organized religions really don't have much to be proud of either,

d

[Liberal Classic]

87. Again, I disagree in the strongest possible terms

You are most definiately deconstructing religion. Holding up the example of child-molesting priests as a response to criticism of the scientology cult establishes moral equivalence between the Catholic church and the scientology cult. You're saying, "See the evil child-raping priests? Scientologists aren't so bad." I do not believe that scientologists are crazy, I believe they are victims! They suffer from a different kind of attack than child molestation, but they are victims nonetheless. And children do suffer abuse at the hands of the scientology cult as well.

Even the most committed atheist can tell the difference between a religion and a cult.

[AmyStrange]

88. I'm deconstructing organized religion only

you can disagree and that's fine and if I am coming across wrong then I apologize, but I am not singling out any individual's personal faith, but organized religion as a whole.

I am not saying see the evil priest and thus scientologist aren't bad. I am saying that calling ALL scientologist bad is just as bad as calling ALL Christians bad because of some evil priest or because of Bush,

d

[Liberal Classic]

89. Then you are establishing moral equivalency between

World religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Zorosterianism, Shintoism, Daoism and Confucianism with cults such as Hubbard's scientology cult, the "Maharishi" Mahesh Yogi's trancendental meditation cult, the "Reverend" Sun Myung Moon's unification cult.

Not even the most serious atheist supports this.

Ergo, scientology apologism.

[AmyStrange]

91. no I'm not...

I'm comparing the idea that to say ALL scientologist are evil because of a few A-Holes is the same as saying ALL Christians are evil because of Bush.

I don't apologize for scientology. I disagree with those who are implying that ALL scientologist are crazy or evil or scum.

Notice I didn't say christianity. I said Christians or those who believe in JC but don't belong to an organized religion.

d

[Liberal Classic]

98. I am sorry, but I remain steadfast in disagreement

Yes, of course you are establishing moral equivalency between religions and cults. Why else would you bring up a variety of failings of several religions while offering absolutely no criticism of cults what so ever?

You are welcome to believe that all organized religion is equally evil, but it doesn't make it true. I would think even a committed atheist would disagree with that.

You are also welcome to disagree with those people who call scientologists crazy. I am not one of those people.

Scientologists are not crazy, they are victims!

[AmyStrange]

94. the original poster didn't ask about scientology...

They ask about scientologist and if they are crazy and THEY ARE NOT ALL crazy or evil or scum like some seem to imply with their post, and thus my pointed and sarcastic references to Bush who doesn't represent ALL Christians anymore than some A-hole Scientologist represent ALL scientologist,

d

[Liberal Classic]

99. The original poster did not ask a precise question

This is what the original poster wrote:

Does anyone here know any Scientologists? Are they really as crazy as they are made out to be on the critic's websites?

This is not a precise question at all. He is not asking if individual scientologists are crazy. He is asking about the validity of websites critical of the scientology cult. With one or two exceptions, nearly every post in this thread has agreed that websites critical of the scientology cult are absolutely right! Nearly all the posts on this thread agree that websites critical of the scientology cult are dead on the money. Except for your posts, which seem to be about nothing but bringing up negative examples of other religions.

Crazy is an imprecise and inelegant term, but no one has simply stated that yes, all scientologists are evil or crazy. The cult of scientology, however, is insanely malicious. As I have said twice already, I do not believe scientologists are evil, I believe scientologists are victims!

[AmyStrange]

80. I have no problem with personal religion...

but with those who are organized. Scientology is the same way. I know many people who are scientologist and don't pay a dime to scientology. Those who do are no better than any other adherants (no questions asked) of other organized religions, but to put down a whole religion for a few who are jerks is no better than calling ALL christians evil because of Bush ... and THAT is my real point,

d

[Liberal Classic]

83. As another poster said

The existence of Bush is not a defense of the $cientology cult.

[AmyStrange]

85. you are right but that's not what I am saying...

as I said before (again and again) calling ALL Christians evil because of Bush is the same as calling ALL scientologist evil and scum just because of a few who are A-holes,

d

[Liberal Classic]

90. Then you establish moral equivalency between ...

World religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Zorosterianism, Shintoism, Daoism and Confucianism with cults such as Hubbard's scientology cult, the "Maharishi" Mahesh Yogi's trancendental meditation cult, the "Reverend" Sun Myung Moon's unification cult.

Not even the most serious atheist supports this.

Ergo, scientology apologism.

[AmyStrange]

92. no I'm not

besides read the original post again. They don't ask about scientology. They ask about scientologist and if they are crazy and THEY ARE NOT ALL crazy or evil or scum like some seem to imply with their post,

d

[AmyStrange]

93. The original poster didn't ask about scientology...

They ask about scientologist and if they are crazy and THEY ARE NOT ALL crazy or evil or scum like some seem to imply with their post, and thus my pointed and sarcastic references to Bush who doesn't represent ALL Christians anymore than some A-hole Scientologist represent ALL scientologist,

d

[DrWeird]

100. Really? What about catholicism?

I was under the impression that they asked for a 10% tithe. At least if you wanted to get to heaven. Oh, you've sinned? No problem, just give some more money and will forgive you for Him.

[Liberal Classic]

101. Even considering the abuse of indulgences

Caused, in part at least, Martin Luther to nail his 95 theses to the front door sparking the protestant reformation, and that at the time most people were illiterate and dependent on the priesthood to read the scriptures for them, I still don't see that it is the same thing as what the maharishi cult and scientology cult do. What these cults do is hold their "scriptures" (I use the term loosely) secret, and charge for every book or even every verse. No pay, no play. As you deplete your savings you are given a glimpse of the super-duper top secret proprietary religious-scientific technology guaranteeing TOTAL FREEDOM!!!1 However, you're never given the entire thing at one time. With each new level of enlightenment the plateau costs more and more. Can't afford to be an Operating Thetan IV? Mortgage your house? Already in debt? There's always theft and extortion. Accused of extortion? Sue someone for libel. Give the settlement to the "church" to pay to read the Operating Thetan V and wash, rinse, and repeat. This is how Scientology works, it is a pyramid scheme. Plain and simple.

On Edit: Correction I meant illiterate.

[Mizmoon]

70. kick

I want to know what others think as well.

[ForrestGump]

72. Scum

I haven't been past it in a long time, but everytime I used to walk past their Hollywood Celebrity Center one of their drones would jump out from behind a wall and try to reel me in, but I'd ignore them and instead speak loudly to my wife (or brother, or whoever) of the 'Church' of $cientology's scumliness. Pigs.

Their evil -- and it is evil, to prey on the vulnerable and weak as they (and other cults and similar, and here I must also include Christian televangelist scum and the like) do -- cannot be understated. That they've been given the status of church here in the US -- and I wish that didn't happen on Big Bill's watch -- is shameful. There's nothing I can really add to what's been said already, or what's gathered on the Xenu Web site, but let's turn for a minute to the Prophet Elvis for a few words...

(Elvis stopped dating Mod Squad star Peggy Lipton because she kept trying to get him to join the church) According to one associate: "One day, in LA, we got in the limousine and went down to the Scientology center on Sunset, and Elvis went in and talked to them. We waited in the car, but apparently they started doing all these charts and crap for him. Elvis came out and said, 'F*** those people! There's no way I'll ever get involved with that son-of-a-bitchin' group. All they want is my money.' He stayed away from Scientology like it was a cobra. He'd sh** a brick to see how far Lisa Marie's gotten into it."

It must be noted that, from about the mid-'60s on, Elvis was very much into alternative philosophies, Eastern religions and mysticism, etc, so the erroneous assumption that he was an intolerant fundamentalist Christian cannot be deployed here -- to an extent, he was gullible in some matters, and I think it telling that Scientology was about the only philosophy that he met that he didn't like or, at least, dabble in. He had them pegged from the start, and we all know that the 'Church' treats its celebrity clients totally different than they do the proles. Yeah, I think he'd be disgusted at Priscilla getting Lisa Marie in with this outfit.

[AmyStrange]

81. The original poster didn't ask if scientology is evil...

but whether scientologist (implying ALL scientologist) are crazy and everyone here who replied about scientology weren't answering the question which was asked. I know many scientologist who are nice and very magnaminous folks and many of them don't pay a dime to the church.

All those who replied in the negative have issues with scientology as an organized religion, but are wrong when they apply THIS same logic to ALL scientologist.

In my opinion ALMOST ALL organized religions are no better than scientology and they ALMOST ALL have their weird beliefs and truths and try to push their values onto others through their organization.

I have no problem with personal religions, but I have a LOT of problems with ALMOST ALL organized religions - including scientology,

d

[ForrestGump]

95. I think that all religions are inherently flawed, but

Scientology --not a religion but, at best a personality cult -- began as a cynical enterprise and has operated as a true scam ever since, expanding its boundaries beyond all reason. Other belief systems may be cynical and exploitive, but Scientology was conceived as that from the very beginning.

As with other cults, or extreme versions of more accepted religions, Scientology's syaunch adherents are -- by definition -- inherently not-quite-all-there. I don't think it's any coincidence that they aggressively recruiit the mentally-awry (awry, in perhaps most cases, as a transitory experience) such as addicts and celebrities...and perhaps I'm being redundant there.

[AmyStrange]

96. agreed

I told my boss the day I was interviewed for my job that I thought scientology was more of a philosophy than a religion.

All I can say is that I was hired that day.

I like the UFO aspects. I like the VP there that I met that day and many times me and him have gotten drunk and just ranted. He likes the management courses and I've seen them and some are pretty good, but nothing I haven't seen before or figured out by myself and I told them that too.

But I still say down with organized religion. The only three (maybe four) religions that I've ever heard of that I kind of like are most Native American beliefs or wiccan or buddhism and a little of Moonie-ism - I like the idea that Moonies believe we will all eventually get to heaven and no one will be in hell forever. It fascinates me - so sue me.

In short, I don't follow any religion or belief system, but have a little of each mixed for my own personal faith,

d


pssst ... not to mention hari krishna

[ForrestGump]

97. Don't think we need some jumped-up Korean fascist demagogue

to tell us we're going to make it to heaven...not if, like me, you don't believe there's a literal (Christian, etc) Hell. Not sure who's worse: Elron and his minions or Moon. They're both at the confluence of megalomania and uber-corporate capitalism. They're both scum of the Earth.