Rap...death of the great black musician.

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

I remember when rap first become popular...I thought,yeah its a novelty and will die out in a few months...even disco wasn't this bad,I mean at least they sang and some of them even played instruments. You can forget about people like Louie Armstrong,Duke Ellington,Charlie Parker,Jimi Hendrix,Ray Charles, and BB King coming out of the black community as long as rap rears its ugly head. Its very sad...very sad indeed.
I'm walking to New Orleans.........

[ALago1]

1. Of course all the "bad" rap is emphasized in the mainstream.

However, if you made a serious attempt to get into the genre, you would find that there is quite a large number of great rap acts with socially conscious lyrics and beats culled from their own musicianship.

I agree with you that most mainstream stuff (in any genre) is disposable crap. But there is more to rap than meets the eye.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

2. You have just inspired such rage in me that I can't even contain myself!!!

You exhibit an ignorance of staggering scope. Do you really believe this or are you trying to start a flame war?????

[Taverner]

4. Sounds like flame bait to me

I don't personally get into rap...but this has flame bait written all over it...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

8. Abso-fucking-lutely!!! This REALLY pisses me off!!!

How dare anyone disparage an art form that allows Black people a modicum of representation in the public forum!!!!!!

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

23. Yeah...are you suggesting I'm racist cuz I hate rap?????

Certainly...I took that the wrong way...right????

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

36. Wow - you're sensitive too

Get over yourself!

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

6. John Coltrane...great musician...name one rapper on his level..n/t

[Dookus]

7. The question presumes

there's an objective standard by which to judge music. There isn't.

[democracyindanger]

9. First define 'great musician.' n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

11. Chuck D

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :mad:

[mitchum]

58. And what instrument does Chuck play?

I respect him as an innovator and provocateur, but still...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

68. He plays the instrument of his voice!!!!!!

What instrument does Robert Plant play - oh yeah - he's a white guy!

[mitchum]

110. No Zeppelin fan here

try again

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

114. Try again? - you're not saying anything - just childish subject lines

What are you doing here?

[mitchum]

132. With all due respect, your race-baiting is childish

What in the fuck was the reason for bringing up Percy Plant= white= good?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

140. I always feel this issue is subtly racist - can't help it

People wouldn't say Moby isn't a musician would they? - maybe you do - per your posts.

Can't help it tho', it just seems par for the course of black music in this country to hear this stuff.

[mitchum]

148. But the original poster seemed to be bemoaning the current lack...

of, in his opinion, great African American musicians, not the passing of "good darkies who knew their place"
True story from a long time ago: The first person I ever heard utter the phrase "Goddamn, I hate that rap shit!" was a 35 year old African American friend who grew up on Hendrix, Gaye, Clinton projects, etc...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

150. Ok - so how does this anecdote justify your point?

?

[mitchum]

153. Your suspicion that any criticism of rap was subtly racist...

occasioned the anecdote. Does paranoia carry more weight than anecdote? It seems to me that they are of equal "value" The point of the anecdote was that perhaps it really does have more to do with aesthetics than subtle or overt racism. Gerald didn't hate "...that rap shit" because he was a self-loathing Black man. He hated it because...he didn't like it.
He also hated Velvet Underground, Black Flag, Stooges, Gun Club not because it was by ofays, but because...he didn't like it.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

156. Here's where you're wrong - you are arguing opinion as fact

You said that electronic musicians weren't really musicians - you can't prove it so its false as far as aesthetics is concerned. Aesthetics is the philisophical study of taste based upon socratic philosophy. Things need to be proven if you're going to make what amount to philisophical comments like that electronic musicians aren't really musicians. I'd livke to see this point proven rather , I seem to be proving that this is all about your taste.

[mitchum]

160. It IS all about my taste...

I won't deny that. Despite all of the meta-post-isms and other theories, it's what aesthetics always boil down to
And that is why I am not the only arguing opinion as fact.

I was being deliberately provocative when I said that electronic musicians were not musicians. That is not always the case. But mouseclicks do not equal chops. Remember, Terry Riley and Steve Reich COULD play the sax and piano (maybe that's why I steal from them as much as I do from Son House and John Fahey)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

161. Art Appreciation is about opinions - aesthetics needs to be proven

so you're incorrect there.

[DrWeird]

17. Tupac Shakur.

Quid pro quo.

[mitchum]

54. Well, that's just fucking ridiculous

[DrWeird]

59. Oh, well if you say so.

Thanks for the well though out rebuttal. I learned a lot.

[mitchum]

76. Use your ears

[DrWeird]

79. Yeah, I have.

I consider Tupac as talented as Coltrane, if not more.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

81. Mitchum - for a 1000+ poster you take the cake with childish provocation

n/t

[mitchum]

142. DrWeird is gonna be so jealous when he reads that

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

69. Please enlighten us!!!

Come on big guy!

[mitchum]

75. See post 71 (In your heart of hearts, you know it's true)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

78. You're trying to get me banned - very childish

Nice :hi:

[mitchum]

120. Man, I am not trying to get you banned

[DrWeird]

82. Real musicians respect all forms and genres...

In fact, I consider anybody who can't appreciate a form of music different then their own to be not real musicians. And intellectual bigots as well.

[mitchum]

118. You're wrong. We're aesthetic bigots...

and there's nothing wrong with that.
I was actually doing 2 turntable, bass, and drum machine performances back in 1984. How about that, homes?

I have enjoyed it as a genre and art form for a long time.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

121. Prove it

n/t

[mitchum]

126. Well, let me gas up the time machine...

Believe it or not, many of us back in those post-punk days were really jazzed by those 12" records coming out of the city. It really did sound new and breathtaking.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

130. Proof you were "doing 2 turntable, bass, and drum machine performances"?

Start the time machine please, yes

[mitchum]

134. Prove that you're not back on the sauce

(Now that was childish)

They were PERFORMANCES not something I recorded. It was something I enjoyed doing when my band wasn't playing the circuit. I thought it would be rather ridiculous for a bunch of adrogynous punk ofays to launch product in competition with Whodini. Maybe I was wrong.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

136. you're right!

I've got to admit - that was funny!

Ok - honestly then - do you believe that that stuff is not music?

[mitchum]

139. I never said that it was not music

I have stated time and time again in this thread that I enjoy much in the genre. I just have a real (and perhaps irrational) antipathy toward ANY singer or rapper or declaimer proclaiming themselves a musician if they don't have mastery over something other than their voice (it really is an attitude I share with many)
However, there have been many great musicians involved in the creation of the music. Wimbish, Leblanc, Stetasonic, Shocklee, Roots, and many many more

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

141. But if you have mastery over a sampler or drum machine or synth how is

that different from a string instrument ,a drum a, a piano, or any other acoustic instrument. You did say electronic musicians aren't musicians. On what do you base that?

[mitchum]

143. And ProTools makes anyone a singer

I just consider it cheating when a technology allows someone to not have to be able to nail it right then and there.
As a painter, do you have much respect for those who rely on PhotoShop?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

145. As a painter who uses photoshop - I feel that a tool is a tool. "Relying"

it brings up the Milli Vanilli argument - that when you become something which is artificial and a lie you are not creating art - that IS the case. Those who rely on the conventions and tools of a genre for their success are not artists. I just can't see condemning a whole genre of creative output because it isn't to your tastes.

[mitchum]

151. Well, I don't like ANY polka music...

so I obviously privilege rap that I like above that Teutonic stomp :)

Honestly, don't you miss the grain of the paint on the canvas (the actually physicality of it) with a PhotoShoped print? That's not a baiting question, I really am curious.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

152. I use photoshop for compositioning only for painting

that's my technique and what I'm going for. Sometimes I like to work purely digitally but its DIFFERENT - its because I choose the tool for the expression not the other way around

[mitchum]

154. Thanks

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

91. See post 74 where I asked why post 71 trailed off incoherently!

:eyes:

[Billy Burnett]

MC 900 ft Jesus

Some goddamn nerve!

:mad:

[frylock]

105. ever heard of the roots?

I didn't think so.

[billbuckhead]

26. This is flame bait for no good reason. Rap's no worse than Nashville or

any other of today's genre. It's one of my least favorites but some of it I have to admit is excellent. Try not singing along with Outkast. As a fellow Atlantan who actually spent some time in the Cascade, I even came to like some Tupac music that they played in the local shoe shows. Open your mind.

[Dookus]

3. I disagree..

people said the same thing about Jazz, Popular Music, and Rock 'n Roll. Every new style is seen as the death knell of "good music".

Rap and its derivatives is responsible for some great art. Is it all good? No, of course not. But then, not all Jazz is good, either.

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

10. Tell me a rap group worth listening to...I'll try it...n/t

[Dookus]

14. Why bother?

If you don't like rap, you don't like rap. That doesn't mean it's worthless.

Plenty of people don't like jazz, or opera, or classical, or avant garde and every other type of music. It doesn't mean they're lousy art forms.

[CalebHayes]

15. Check out Anticon

I don't really like rap but I think they are pretty alright. "Sound is vibration" is a good song.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

18. Public Enemy, Common, Black Star, Beastie Boys, Cannibal Ox, Atmoshphere

Boogie Down Productions, The Zulu Nation, De LA Soul, Pharoah Monch, Blackalicious, Del, Prince Paul.....need more?

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

28. Beastie Boys....LOL.....MORONS,with squeaky voices...n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

31. You have just outed yourself - the B Boys are liberals!

and should be respected for that alone

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

40. Good logic....LOL

There are lots of liberals I don't like but I'm still a liberal...I certainly don't want to hear Barbara Streisand sing...does that mean I'm a conservative. Dude...I'm beating you at every turn...give up.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

45. You're beating me - dismissing a whole genre of art?

You're just being combatitive for no reason!

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

50. Sorry,I don't consider it art....I CAN'T BE THE ONLY ONE...

SOMEBODY GET MY BACK!!!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

52. Who's gonna "get your back"? Please!!!

:mad:

[DrWeird]

55. I thought you were winning the argument.

Why the cry for help?

For a "guitarist" who "appreciates all kinds of music" to go around saying that "black music is dead" and a genre that you don't care for "isn't really music" and that you "don't consider it art" come off as being just a bit... mmmm... arrogant? Is that the right word?

Frankly, I don't like opera. I don't even understand the words coming out of their mouths (I don't speak italian). But I don't go around saying it isn't really music and that Italian music is dead.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

60. Exactamundo!!!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

57. What makes the Beastie Boys morons then? Calling for Bush's removal

Freeing Tibet - please - you don't have a fucking clue!!!

[frylock]

107. paul's boutique is one of the seminal albums of the genre

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

116. agreed - as is Blowout Comb from Digable Planets

[ALago1]

20. OK, start off with something everyone can get into:

The Roots - Play and write their own music (w/ instruments)
Outkast (Uses both sampling and personal instrumentation)
Public Enemy (All sampling, but done well with lyrics that speak directly to the disenfranchised black population)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

25. The Bomb Squad changed music as we know it!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

5. You go further than New Orleans!!! Cause there's Hip Hop there

Go to.......... you can't escape it! You're doomed!

[htuttle]

12. Doo-bee-doop Bap-bah Badda-bip badda

Nah, Duke Ellington wouldn't have done anything like rap if he were still alive, right?

:)

Doo Wop, Doo Wop, Doo Wop, Doo Wop, Doo Wop, Doo Wa!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

13. I'm all over this thread - I will be here till its dead!

Or I get banned in the process

[Taverner]

19. Dude, it aint worth it

You post too much good stuff to get banned over flamebait...

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

16. REMEBER I SAID MUSICIAN....THEY DON'T PLAY OR SING...

SO HOW CAN THEY BE CLASSIFIED AS MUSICIANS.....THEY ARE POETS WITH A DRUM MACHINE...NOT MUSICIANS.

[Taverner]

21. Are you arguing that rythym is not an element of music?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

62. Rythym is an element of music

but if someone compared most rap rythym sections to the likes of Elvin Jones or Tony Williams on a drumset it would be like comparing a piper cub to the space shuttle. It's a rythym allright, but that's about all you can say about it. Take out the spoken words and it's no longer something to which you can listen. Whereas I could listen all day to an Elvin Jones or Tony Williams drum solo.

[Taverner]

67. But to call it the death of black music

merely because the rythym and cadence of the lyrics don't suit your taste is overly judgemental.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

92. I don't think it's the death of black music

but it's probably a significant drag on the emergence of new black talent. If playing the kazoo suddenly became very popular, if live music venues suddenly changed from featuring jazz, blues or rythym-and-blues to kazoo bands, if record company labels started signing kazoo players to recording contracts, it would probably mean that far fewer great sax players would develop on the instrument. The kazoo is a very limited instrument. Rythym sections in rap bands lay down very technically limited lines.

It's all a question a taste, that's true. But I don't know of too many world famous rap drummers or bass players, who are well known JUST for their playing as opposed to the whole gestalt of the rap.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

95. I do - Ahmir ?uestlove Thompson from the roots

And then there's Spearhead - another live Hip Hop group

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

135. What about foreign rap artists in languages you don't understand?

Can you listen to them for extended periods of time, as opposed to just one or two raps? In other words, if you divorce the music from any verbal communication, which includes all of the emotion, humor, anger, sadness of images, beauty of images, ugliness of images, personal, social and political content...can you sit and listen to it for extended periods of time? I can't. Whereas I can listen to a great sax or guitar player from any country, whose native language is not mine.

I'm not putting down rap as a total gestalt, because I have enjoyed listening to some of it (although I can't take too much at one time). But the musical communication in it to me is very limited, if you take out the verbal communication and all of the atmosphere. I don't hear great variety of emotion coming through just the music. I don't get the high I get from listening to Oscar Peterson or Wayne Shorter, or even Ray Brown.

If you can do that, that's fine with me. I can't.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

138. Absolutely I can - in fact I love hearing Japanese rhyming. Some good

examples are "Candle Chanmt" from Dj Krush's "Zen" album and "Long Island is Wildin" on De La Souls "Buhloone Mind State".(Albeit a tad cheesy). There is excellent Central and South American rhyming too.

I like it - you don't its just the same.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

144. I don't know about them

I lived in Europe for awhile and heard a lot of rap from different countries, some in languages I couldn't understand. I also saw a lot of videos on their versions of MTV. Most of it was the same fare I hear on FM radio in the U.S., but without the interesting words and their mental pictures and therefore without meaning to me. Devoid of the verbal communication, I found completely without interest as music.

I'm willing to change my mind and would like to discover great new musicians in any style of music. If I could hear some great rap artists who just sit on a stool and play their ax, without costumes, without the attitude, without relying on words or visuals, without relying on the hyped auro that rap entails, without relying on the extra-musical persona of the artist, I could then say that they are accomplished rap musicians. I'd love to hear them. I wonder though if they would even be considered rap artists anymore at that point, however.

Apparently, they exist according to your references. I wonder what percentage of rap these musicians represent.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

146. Hip Hop - much as Jazz has - has EXPLODED throughout the world

And its influences can be felt everywhere. Because of America's stature as the most successful culture in exporting its goods black music isn't just the driving force in the US - its the driving force the world over.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

147. Elevator music has also exploded throughout the world

Sorry, but virtually all the Hip Hop I've heard is maybe one step above elevator music in technical sophistication as music (emphasis on as "music" apart from all the other trappings). Again, I'd be thrilled to discover a great Hip Hop sax player, a great Hip Hop virtuoso on the keyboard, a great Hip Hop guitar player who would have made Joe Pass drool. I just haven't heard it. I'd love to, though. I love great music.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

149. Your a fan of instrumental music. You don't like producer made music

There is no end to this back and forth - its a difference of opinion. Well met.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

155. Actually not quite a difference of opinion - I'm open to changing my mind

I admit I'm not an expert on Hip Hop. I have had friends who loved it and played it to extremes. I'm familiar with the usual packaged artists one hears on FM radio...Ice Cube, Geto Boys, DMX, Dr. Dre, Public Enemy, 2 Pac, LL Cool J, Blacksheep, Notorious, Nas, and many others I can't think of right now. I guess you can't live in America without being exposed to the big names. Like I said, I'm not putting them down as performers, artists, and story-tellers, but as pure musical content and as written musical compositions, I'm not impressed with their works.

If you know any unsung virtuosos in Hip Hop who could entertain an audience in a completely dark room, purely on their ability to move an audience through their music ALONE as opposed to their words and the visual performance, I'm willing to listen to them and change my mind if they blow my mind as pure musicians.

But getting back to the original post, I don't think black music is dead. But I just don't see the technical masters in the numbers that we used to have. There are great young black virtuosos on their musical instruments who have emerged, who are known as great tenor sax players, great trumpet players, great keyboard players, great guitarists, great base players, great drummers, great vibes players, but not nearly in the numbers we used to see, in my humble opinion.

But it may not just be due to all the commercial space being filled up by rap and hip hop. Maybe the public doesn't like live music anymore. Maybe young black musicians don't think jazz or blues are cool anymore. Maybe they don't think they can make any kind of living in more purely instrumental types of music where you have to get by on pure virtuosity alone or a great singing voice alone. We've gone back and forth about whether rap is quality music. We haven't really discussed whether rap, whether you call it great music or not, has usurped the other music genres or whether other factors are also at work. I'm not sure about it.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

158. Rahzel has done what you speak of

He has done it for small rooms and stadiums.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000JCB8/qid=1090551085/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/103-2725039-9396600?v=glance&s=music&n=507846



To your point - you are in athread condemning a form of music as not music but you are arguing an untennable point. You are applying an unfair qualifier to the debate by saying that you aren't moved by the compositions but that seems to be based on your tastes which is what makes it unfair in terms of the debate at hand. It seems that you don't like the genre itself becaus eit is a very rigid genre, much like reggae. To qualify to musical convention it needs to fall in certain stylistic parameters - such as the 4/4 scheme (see Saul Williams as a great exception to the rulr - he's an innovator: http://sandbox.pair.com/abstract/586501.html)

You seem to be saying, in essence, "I don't LIKE it musically" that's fine, I have no problem with that - but to condemn it - that's where I draw the line.

[mitchum]

137. You have hit upon the point of this (and the reason I jumped in)

Rap IS a valid art form/ genre/ means of expression. But the reliance on machines and samples will have a negative effect on the mastery of instruments. How many neighborhood bars feature live rap? Not many. Very few musicians have ever become wealthy from playing music, but in the past there were many venues where players could practice their craft. The logistics and marketing of contemporary rap preclude this.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

77. That is even MORE BULLSHIT!!! There are instrumental Hip Hop artists

Dj Shadow, Dj Vadim, RJD2 and countless others and its VERY listenable!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

22. That's Fucking Bullshit!!!

You are showing your ignorance more and more. Have you ever made electronic music? I have - I do daily. It is an art form like any other

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

33. I see you are a frustrated rapper???

I'm a guitarist who loves all kinds of MUSIC....sorry if it pisses you off that I don't consider rap music.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

38. Personal attacks?

Show your colors - go ahead!

[Amaya]

That's fucking ignorant!

:grr:

[Dookus]

42. but... but...

he used all caps, and everybody knows that makes an argument better!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

46. Yeah All Caps wins!!!

pathetique

[mitchum]

71. It is indeed an art form, but we real musicians don't consider...

electronic musicians to be musicians. But you already know that. Nothing personal though, some of my best friends...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

74. What in the fuck are you talking about?

Why are you trailing off mid sentence?

[mitchum]

80. ...delude themselves into thinking that mouse clicks equal chops

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

84. Ok - you guys are fucking ridiculous

:eyes:

[Billy Burnett]

89. I say the same thing about the springs on a sax

Also, anyone who knows music knows that anything other than cat-gut strings is an abomination, not music. :P

[mitchum]

129. Hell, anything newer than an oud is just a pop gimmick

:)

[Billy Burnett]

83. If you have gears on your tuners you aren't a "real" musician

No real musician needs more than rosin and friction. ;-)

[DrWeird]

24. Can Coltrane rap?

You're being rather arbitrary. It's like saying someone who can't sing opera isn't really a musician.

And what's with the caps? Seems like somebody realizes they've already lost the argument.

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

63. False logic...

A musician is one who sings or plays an instrument...do rappers do that? ALSO,WHY DOES ALL CAPS BOTHER YOU???? I JUST WON THAT ARGUEMENT!!!!!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

72. Yes they sing - they use their voices to make words with the rhythm

You won jack shit!!!

[DrWeird]

73. Are you an adult?

Seriously now. You argue like a 13 year old.

The logic is false? It's your logic. You defined music under a narrow category that arbitrarily excluded rap. Using your logic, I defined music as rap, therefore Coltrane isn't a musician. Ain't that a bitch?

Frankly, I'd define a musician as anybody who makes music. I'd consider Mozart a musician even though he didn't sing and wasn't known for playing an instrument.

And rap is definately music, regardless of your tastes, or lack thereof.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

87. My slapping an ignorant poster silly is music if you think about it!

:)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

30. They don't sing? Have you heard the Love Below?

how much HAVE you heard?

[DrWeird]

32. Snoop dogg can sing.

Like an angel, actually. Trained in gospel singing.

As for the Love Below, Andre Benjamin plays many of the instruments in that album. Including a beautiful guitar piece.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

27. I put on Don't Believe the Hype for this occasion

"Writers treat me like Coltrane - insane!"

[Skittles]

29. I know exactly what you mean, PSM

the days of a Marvin Gaye would appear to be long gone and what has take its place SUCKS.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

34. Skittles - no! How can you condemn an artform?

I LOVE Marvin Gaye - but have you heard the great Hip Hop out there?

[Skittles]

39. I don't dislike rap as much as I miss that old music

gawd, I just adored Marvin and burst into tears when I heard of his death.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

48. Have You heard Jill Scott?

She's carrying the soul torch along with many others - and she was in the Roots - a non-artistic "rap" group.

Sorry - I'm pissed and somebody seems to like that

[Skittles]

51. no, but I will check her out

I guess I just miss good old fashioned soul. :)

Hey, I watched a PBS show of old groups and they had the Stylistics on - man, that singer looks as good as ever and is still hitting those high notes. I was in heaven!!!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

65. I have a version of the Stylistics doing Burt Bacharach's

You'll Never Get To Heaven (If You Break My Heart) - golden!

[DrWeird]

35. Actually...

it just appears certain people are over the hill and can't appreciate new music.

[Skittles]

43. I don't think that is true

right now I'm listening to Linkin Park and that ain't old.

[DrWeird]

47. Linkin Park?

is that the rock group who's big hit had the line

"I FEEEL SO INSECUUUUUUURE!"

Is that the one?

[Skittles]

49. lol

I dunno, just borrowed it today. :D

[CalebHayes]

86. Turn it off now, please, LK sucks if you like that sort of music...

listen to some good emo or something.

[ALago1]

37. There has always been shitty music

The difference now, in my opinion, is that the music industry has become progressively more profit driven than say, aesthetically driven.

Thus, shitty music with potential to be exploited in the mainstream gets sent to the forefront while struggling artists saying what needs to be said get pushed aside because they can't make it in the market.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

41. There is a vibrant and significant underground which makes GREAT music

God damnit!!!

[ALago1]

56. I agree

I mentioned it in my other posts...i was just trying to say that profit driven record companies lose sight of whats truly valuable and shove whatever can be sold as popular down our throats (in all genres, not just rap).

[Amaya]

44. Rap is a totally different genre altogether.

If you don't like it... don't listen.

[WindRavenX]

53. And just because you don't like it...

...doesn't mean it's somehow "not music" (that's not aimed at you Amaya).
I usually don't like rap music (or at least the mainstream rap, some underground stuff is absolutely awesome), but some that does not mean it is not as valid an art form as classical or jazz. Remember, the Beatles and Elvis were thought to be harbingers of the death of music.

[Droopy]

61. I don't care for rap

But I do think it is an art form, it is music, and that it takes talent to make it.

Hell I don't care for much music outside of heavy metal, but I'm not not going to dis other genres and say that they don't have something to offer.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

70. Excellent Droopy - that's a way to handle immature flame bait

which I could be so calm!

[MuseRider]

64. I used to feel like you but then

my sons, bless their little souls, brought me into the fold.....sort of. I have problems with some of the things said in SOME Rap but other than that I have learned to appreciate some of it. Granted, not all of it but some of it I quite enjoy. First they turned me on to Ozomatli who use some rap and for Mothers Day I was given the double "The Love Below" and "Speakerboxxx" and I kind of like them. I am learning. Being a classical musician as old as I am it was a hard sell but learning is about opening your mind and giving it a go. Perhaps you just do not like it.

[johnnie]

66. First rap I ever heard

Was Eric Burdon's "Year of the Guru". That was from 1967. That form has been around a long time.

[sendero]

85. To your list...

.... >> Louie Armstrong,Duke Ellington,Charlie Parker,Jimi Hendrix,Ray Charles, and BB King ... I'd add Al Green, Noel Redding, Robert Johnson, George Clinton,John Coltrane, and countless others.

Try as I might I cannot see placing the likes of Tupak or Chuck whatever or any of their ilk in same universe. It is like comparing today's country music with Hank Williams, early Willie, etc - there just is no comparison - it's comparing art to commerce.

A claim could be made that many of the musicians listed here were not all that famous in their time, that it took time for people to see the genius of their work.

But most rap lyrics are so ridiculous I just don't see that happening. I would not go so far as to say that rap "isn't music". I like stuff like Squarepusher and I'm certain that most of you here would say it isn't music either. The point is that all pop music coming out now is so commercialized, so filtered by the recording companies, it seems almost impossible for anything really good to see the light of day. Everything is reduced to the lowest common denominator. Can you imagine some of the great artists of the 60s and 70s getting a record deal today? It wouldn't happen. I blame that, not the lack of artists. Artists don't get recording deals any more.

Ok, my rambling is done :)

[DrWeird]

93. Why is Tupac "ilk"?

Just curious.

[TufNeck]

88. New School rap, yes....

Old School rap was more of a compliment to old funk, soul, and jazz music. It sampled breaks or break beats from forgotten about songs and songs never heard by younger crowds. Modern rap music that I have heard sounds like noise to me and not like music. Also seems to be more about choreography and the tough, rich, pimp-like character they portray. I wish rap did die out before it got to the point it is at now.
Doug

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

97. Tufnek - if you want to learn about the world of vibrant Hip Hop..

I can school you.

[cprise]

90. Rap isn't accessible

Jazz and classical have access points... places where any person will be hooked and made to feel joy.

Rap....um.... well... I 'get it'. I can acquire a taste for bits and pieces, but it keeps trying to push me out.

The whole music industry sucks right now. It has stopped innovating, and a lot of people were left stuck on rap (which I consider pretty unfortunate).

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

94. If you try and look there's a great underground Hip Hop scene

Check out http://www.sandboxautomatic.com

[sendero]

159. I separate....

... rap and hip hop. I like hip-hop. It only gets ruined when people start saying stupid shit on top of the great music :)

Chill beats are hot!

[LowerManhattanite]

96. As you've posted the flame bait, allow me to drop my MOAB full of napalm..

There's a thread here in the lounge from someone asking "whether they should buy an iPod?"

It got me to thinking for a moment about my own iPod---which boasts selections from the Duke Ellington Orchestra (Dimunendo and Crescendo in Blue), Howlin' Wolf (Killing Floor), Tony Toni Toné (Don't Fall in Love), and Eric B and Rakim (Follow teh Leader). I live in New York City and was in my teens when rap was born. Love Bug Starski showed up at a party I was at and rocked the mic freestyle for chicken wings and a plate of potato salad--so I've seen from whence the music came. And yes, I said MUSIC! Understand that music progarms had been all but killed in the NYC public schools at that time. Instruments were sold off. The only things musical left in schools were those huge Califone "blockhead" P.A. systems/turntables---which the kids put to use in creating rap music. Through the dearth of creative outlets, a new, exciting one was found and expanded upon, thus, the birth of rap.

To somehow claim "the death of the great black musician" (a canard, at best) is due to the explosion of rap is rather ill-informed. Rap is in itself musical in spite of what you may feel. It's core is the rhythm. Guys in gym class would beat out a rhythm on the lockers as folks took turns freestyling in the locker room. People would "human beatbox" a riff when there was no instruments or music to be had. The very core of rap is it's ingenuity---cobbling the discards of the culture into something new---much the way many of the first boppers used the chord structure from "I Got Rhythm" as the basis for their flights of solo fancy. The melodic twists of a Rakim, KRS-ONE, Tribe Called Quest or Nas lyric are stunning. The wordplay can rise to Joycean levels (tell me Flavor-Flav's turn on "Cold Lampin'" isn't up there with Joyce's "Jabberwock"!) and be as trenchant as the lyrics to any of the great R&B "message" songs (Mayfield's "People Get Ready", Marvin's "What's Goin' On" etc.) Killing black music? Hell no! More like expanding it's coverage. I saw Max Roach's percussion ensemble perform with GangStarr's Guru ten years ago and their interplay was a revelation. They dealt...musician to musician.

That said...all rap ain't great. "Baby Got Back", " Me So Horny" and "Pop that Coochie" aren't gonna be preserved in a time capsule. But then, there are those who cringe at Coltrane's piercing "sheets of sound" technique during his avant-garde phase, retch at B.B. King's performance of "The Young and the Restless" theme and stick hot pokers in their eyes over Chuck Berry's "My Ding-a-Ling". There is good and bad in all music. To single out a genre and pooh-pooh it based on a spurious opinion is ill-thought out. Clearly, you don't know much about the genre as you've asked others to direct you to the "good" stuff. Expand your mind a little. There's some powerful stuff out there in rap. Not all of it. But enough to matter. And absolutely more than enough to merit the term "music". Think live, performed music by African-Americans is dead? Prince is on the charts and packing in arenas. The Roots have a bangin' new album out as does Van Hunt and Alicia Keyes. Check on 'em.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm a fire up the ol' iPod. Let's see...I'll go from Count Basie's "East St. Louis Toodle-oo" to Brandy & Kanye West's "Talk About Our Love", and then...

[DrWeird]

99. Well done.

BUT YOU LOST BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T USE CAPS!!!!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

111. USE YOUR EARS

[slutticus]

115. I'll bust some caps in here....

... :P

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

100. Lowermanhattanite - you are my new favorite DUer

But it was all flame bait ayway!

:toast:

Obviously the sheets of sounds are my bag so - there's that! :)

[slutticus]

106. awesome

..."and rocked the mic freestyle for chicken wings and a plate of potato salad"

That's a great line! That would make a great rap lyric!


Great post

[LowerManhattanite]

123. Thanks..

...and it's absolutely true. He worked the crowd like a madman. It was 1979 I believe. It was an amazing time. They'd come from the Bronx to Queens and search out house parties (By listening for bass thumps in the suburban night air) and basically "spread the gospel" by performing live in your home.

"Not music", Please! The denseness of a vintage P.E. cut and it's intricacy and blending of rhythms ("Rebel Without a Pause" anyone? Damn!), found sounds and compelling, melody-driven lyrics is proof enough. And yes, I am a musician, know other musicians (some prominent Jazz musicians too) who embrace rap as music, plain and simple. If you can't dig it, cool. It's still music. There was a time when I hated opera, then I started dating an opera singer and absorbed the music by osmosis. Now I can appreciate the genre and revel in it's high points. Hated the Dead once too. based on the limited snippets I'd heard. Found myself stuck in Germany for a week and the only station I found in English played the Dead all weekend. Heard some songs I liked and learned to appreciate them too.

It's about open-minded-ness. That's all.

:)

[BlueJazz]

98. I suppose I'll throw my 2 cents in here, being a Jazz Musician.

Frankly, Rap just doesn't say anything, the chords patterns are juvenile, the rhythm is simplistic 4/4 time (often made on a Drum Machine...usually by no-talents that really don't know how to program a drum machine....they just use the samples that came with it when new)

Having worked in studios just about my whole life, I can truly say, I've never met a single truly good musician that had any thing to say that was good about rap.

As for myself, the kindest thing that I can say about it is, It's corny.

As for hearing "New" Rap...several folks have tried to turn me on to
"The new thing" and it's just more boring worn-out major chords
with a bunch of trash laid down on some of the open tracks.

And that's probably the problem with schooled Musicians trying to listen to Rap....I mean we actually KNOW what chords they're playing and can "Dissect" a tune in our heads ...inside and out.

Rap just doesn't offer anything new.....
It's just.....Boring...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

108. I have two words for you Cold Vein - El-P's production on this Cannibal Ox

joint is music no matter how elitist you are!



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005BIVW/qid=1090544835/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl15/103-2725039-9396600?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

[Solly Mack]

101. ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

again I say....fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Droopy]

113. uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucccccccckkkkkkkkk

:silly:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

122. tttttttthhhhhiiiiiissssssss fffffllllllaaaaaaammmmee bbbaaiiittttt

[Solly Mack]

128. exactly!!!!

lololol

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

131. Done!

:yourock:

[MrSlayer]

102. All the good rap died years ago.

Now it's so commercial it has very little social value. Rap in the 80's and Early 90's was great because not only did it have slamming beats but a lot of the lyrics were social commentary. From Chuck D to Ice Cube to KRS-1 you got the real news from the street. A lot of those acts had messages of empowerment and positivity to the Black community and Gangsta rap kicked ass. Like so many other forms of music it's bastardized now due to corporate and commercial influence.

[DrWeird]

103. But you're talking about the stuff on the radio.

Which is all watered down and brought to you by Clear Channel.

The good old stuff was never played on the radio either. You had to look for it then, just like the good stuff now you have to look for too.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

104. Listen - just because its so commercial doesn't mean its dead

There is, and I'll say it again, there is a FUCKING INCREDIBLE UNDERGROUND!!!!

[frylock]

109. hey man..

I've been waiting for an opportunity to ask you if you've heard The Forest Fires Collective. Well?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

117. No I haven't

Who are they?

[frylock]

125. check it out..

This is some of the freshest, funniest shit I've heard in a while. You gotta hear "Go Find the Blaze". Do you ummmmmmmmmm.. soulseek?

http://www.urbansmarts.com/reviews/vinyl/misc030.htm
http://www.thelatter.com/home.html

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

127. Thank you.

Urban Smarts is a site I respect. I will investigate.

[frylock]

112. check out some mf doom if you wanna blow your mind..

aka King Geedorah, aka Viktor Vaughn, aka MM FOOD.

http://www.mfdoomsite.com/

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

119. WORD!!!!!

Metal Face!!!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

124. Did we set any records with this ones Mods?

Seemed to flame up like bad hemorrhoids!

[Catholic Sensation]

133. what an idiotic thing to say...

You can forget about people like Louie Armstrong,Duke Ellington,Charlie Parker,Jimi Hendrix,Ray Charles, and BB King coming out of the black community as long as rap rears its ugly head.

uh... Alicia Keys?

You know nothing about which you speak.

[TroubleMan]

157. Damn....I can't believe I was gone when this happened

The people who disparage rap have only heard the sold out, commercial shit.

Let me drop some Mos Def & Talib Kweli lyrics on you, and you'll see that soul is alive and well.

My screen name, Trouble Man, is from a Marvin Gaye song - a song that Marvin said was his favorite. I know nearly every Al Green song by heart. I can mention soul songs Nighttrain's never heard of. I have over one straight week's worth of mp3 of just R&B, Soul, Funk, & Jazz. That's right - I could leave my MusicMatch playlist on for a week, and you'd never hear the same song twice - that's excluding my rap collection.

I love soul music probably more than anyone you'll ever see, but hip-hop carries on the tradition. You just haven't heard the good stuff. Also, real hip-hop is a mirror of urban life, just as the best of previous genres held up a mirror to life in that time and helped you understand it, to feel it, to suffer or rejoice with it.

Record labels and radio stations have conglomerated a lot. This in turn has deteriorated all music, but especially rap. A lot of the "rap" you hear on the radio should really be consider pop, because it is made and appeals to the "pop" audience in mind. It's made to get teenagers and suburbanites to spend their money, because they have the most money to spend.

Don't judge hip-hop by it's sold out off-shoot. Google some lyrics by Mos Def (try Thieves in the Night or Respiration), listen to some old KRS-One (try My Philosopy), even go back to some old Ice Cube before he went pop (google the lyrics to The Product or Bird In The Hand), go way back and read the words to The Message or Beat Street. Trust me, you see there are some great writers and musicians out there. The Roots are a live rap band, with real instruments - I think in 20 years people will look back at their drummer, Questlove, as one of the great musicians of my generation. I'm forgetting a lot of great rappers in this, but the list, truly would be too long for me to list them all.

If all you hear is radio rap, then I understand why you don't like it - I don't like most of the rap on the radio, and I've been a huge fan of rap since the early 80's. I grew up with it. However, that's not the true heart and soul of hip-hop - it's more like it's greedy brother looking for a hand out. Black music is alive and well - and not just in hip-hop.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

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