If I were a woman Cat Steven's Wild World would piss me off

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

I'd be like: "you think If I leave you I'll just fall on my face or get taken advantage of or some shit? Kiss off fur-ball - its that bullshit mach attitude that I'm leaving you for in the first place "Cat""

Then I'd say that Peace Train is a great song and I'd slam the door!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

1. 'First Cut is the Deepest' is suspect also.

Have I mentioned how much I despise his music?

[skooooo]

2. My sister and I ..

...used to sing "Obese Train comin' closer..Ride on the obese train!"
lol

Never thought about Wild World that way tho.

[soothsayer]

3. My sis used to play it to a 13 y.o. chick always running away

Didn't stop her, but made her cry.

[supernova]

4. It does piss me off

There's quite a few overly overtly paternalistic songs from that era that cheeze me off and make me glad the women's movement happened.

Wild World

Handbags and Gladrags - So you think she's only interested in fashion and grandfather won't let her work for a living. :eyes:

Well, that's only two I can think of right now, but I know there are more.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

7. Cat Stevens was seriously chauvinistic, it's all through his music.

[noonwitch]

16. I guess that's why Islam had so much appeal for him

I'm not one of those freepers who wants Islam declared a "hate cult" or whatever, but I'd be blind not to notice the treatment of women in the islamic world. I don't know enough about the Koran to know if this is justified in it (although I do know the Bible and the mistreatment of women and children is justified in it), but women have no status in most islamic countries. Palestinean women in Israel and islamic women in the US have more rights than women in any islamic nation.

[Malikshah]

18. As with Christianity and Judaism

Islam has it's mixed views on women

The Qur'an does not view them specifically as the root of all evil.
Islamic law provides some basic rights, albeit less than for men

It is the patriarchal culture overall that subordinates women.
Not the religion itself--people, as ever, will use religion as a tool for whatever means they want.

[noonwitch]

27. The Bible doesn't claim women are the root of all evil, either

I believe that concept was brought to judeo-christianity by Bernard of Clairveux in the 12th century. He taught that original sin comes at birth, because the birth canal is in between the urinary opening and the anus, so it must be filthy. It's no wonder guys like him became celibate priests-no woman would go near them with a 10 foot pole.

Paul didn't exactly like women, but his words are not the words of God, contrary to fundamentalist theology. Jesus went out of his way to talk to women. I consider that a trump of any crap Paul spewed out. The old testament is schizo about women-there's Eve, but there's also Deborah. There's Jezebel, but there's also Miriam. Most of all, there's Ruth and Esther, two great female characters.

[Malikshah]

30. Too true

Bernard, Paul, Augustine, Ibn Taymiyya-- lot's of men with an inferiority complex.

In Islam, there's Aisha, Khadija, etc. but alas women must live in the same world as men and men tend to make the rules.

Somehow I think the "Supreme Being" (take your pick of names) is mightily ticked off. :)

[markus]

11. I don't think Handbags and Gladrags is sexist or patertanlisic

I just don't see that.

Yes, this particular person is running around worrying about their clothes and what not and dropping out of school. And the song makes that not to be a good thing.

How is this generalized to Womankind?

Hell, when I think about it, this song could be at least in part descriptive of the behavoir I see among the noveau riche kids my daughter is exposed to in her dance school, which worries us a good bit. They are very materialistic, don't care squat about school, and expect apparently to be taken care of by somebody (with unlimited funds) for the rest of their life.

[argyl]

12. I've always associated "Handbags and Gladrags"with Rod Stewart.

Didn't know Stevens recorded it also.It was written by Mike D'abo.

[supernova]

13. It is a Rod song

It's about a girl who only wants someone to keep her in a style to which she aspires.

It's the old only marry for money canard.

[RandomKoolzip]

5. Yeah, it's pretty condescending.

Great melody, though. That descending chord sequence just before the chorus, played on piano, gets me every time.

I still think the songs he did for "Harold and Maude" are his best work. Especially "Trouble."

Anyone who'd dismiss early seventies singer-songwriters because they're....early seventies singer-songwriters, and well.....Lester Bangs said they were uncool, MAAAN, then they're missing out on great tune-smithery.

I was the drummer in a riot grrrl band in New Orleans with a girl who told me that she couldn't stand Jimi Hendrix because his constant references to some female and her "little mind." She said his dimunition of said female was sexist and refused to listen to him. She also said that she shummed any song sung by a male where the male calls a female "baby." I think some people go to far with stuff like that.

[tigereye]

19. I used to have occasional bouts of that

I made some of my pals mad at one of thier gigs giving them crap about "baby" songs. Now when I look back at that I feel kind of dumb.
But I try to be more open-minded now. If we use the "but that's sexist" criterion we would miss out on a lot of great music, blues included. I'm not sure where the balance is.

I really like a lot of Cat Stevens stuff, probably because I don't analyze it too much. And Harold and Maude is one of my fave films ever. There is a great Cat cover on Yo La Tengo's Fakebook, I really like, can't think of the title right now. Yellow Sarong?

[RandomKoolzip]

20. The balance is......

Not to put rock music on some pedestal where it can offend you.

The first time I ever heard a singer sing "baby" about another grown up human being, it was Loretta Lynn on some TV show. So to me, I don't associate the word with paternalism. Lots of females have called their male lovers/mates "baby."

But like I said, taking this shit seriously is where you run into trouble. Should we take AC/DC at their word?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

31. You mean High Voltage?

PS - man - who overproduced that Dirty Deeds Paul has in his iTunes?

[RandomKoolzip]

42. Scott Rause.

Yeah....uh, it's kinda way overproduced, isn't it. I thought it might be a good idea as a way to get radio play but aesthetically it's nowheresville, Jack.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

44. Its the kitchen sink technique

what a gwan?

[RandomKoolzip]

45. I want someone to take me to the hospital.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

46. you sho bout dat?

[RandomKoolzip]

47. Nice catch, blanco nino.

But too bad your ass got ssssaaaaacccked.

[Old and In the Way]

6. He became a rather devote Muslim at the apex of his career.

That was the last we heard of the Cat....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

9. Right - and being amuslim definately changed his feeling about

paternalistic attitudes

[lilymidnite]

8. Ages ago I liked CS ...

then in recent times I got some of his stuff from peer-to-peer. I was shocked what paternalistic crap it is. 'Sad Lisa', for one.

[DinahMoeHum]

10. He also did a song called New York Times way back then. . .

which bashed the city and he called it "not fit for a dog"


:evilfrown:

[Mara Steele]

14. You're funny...

This thread made me laugh... :D :hi:

Thanks for the feminist solidarity, sista! :D

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

25. We - are - family!

:)

[Mara Steele]

32. Abso-cheneying-lutely!

& just teasing you w/ the "sista" remark, bro! :D

:pals:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

33. I know - I loved it. I'd rather be counted among the ranks of women than

men - the majority of whom are slovenly chauvanist meat bricks. Thats IMHO of course!

[Mara Steele]

38. "IMHO"

love that phrase, the humble is never really humble, though! :D

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

39. How bout IMAO

In my audatious opinion

[Screaming Lord Byron]

40. For me, it would be IMFUO.

[Mara Steele]

43. I like that...

You know, why not just say what you really mean? :D

I'm so rarely humble, I always feel it's a bit of a sham when I use such a phrase :D :D

[VoteDemocratic2004]

15. It was a different era

He was one of my favorite singers.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

17. Sorry, but that's not an excuse.

[tigereye]

22. that raises an interesting question

about what standards to apply to work/art/film/lit of the past. Some of it is blatantly below current standards. But where to draw the line? Should we simply hold people intellectually accountable, or ignore and denigrate work that fit the standards ( however base and degrading or whatever term you want to use) of the past?

However, at the same time, there were many people at that time who did not write "sexist" songs. How do you apply the standard and would it reach a point that you would hmmm, not be able to listen to a lot of music that others might find insensitive? And I think of you as pretty open-minded.

Just a thought to ponder on a rainy Monday. Since I was just reading a bunch of shorts from censored writers like Jdy Bloom, I have been thinking about questions like this.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

23. Well, it was recorded in 1970.

Society was pretty liberated by that point, particularly in rock and roll circles. To me Stevens represents perfectly the cheap chauvinism of a large section of the hippy movement, a section that wanted sexual liberation, but was perfectly happy to keep women in 'traditional' roles.
I'd say that by 1970, this language was sexist.

Bear in mind, though, that I can't stand Cat Stevens, so I'm being particularly harsh on him because my parents would play his tapes in the car on excruiatingly long car trips, thus scarring my childhood.

[tigereye]

24. ah that explains it!

I thought he was extremely sexy in my youth. I hadn't grokked the sexual chauvinism of the "hippy left" as yet, since I was too young. Who said "the position of women in the left is prone?" Tom Hayden or one of the Panther guys or the Weathermen? Can't remember. There you go.

[RandomKoolzip]

26. Not all of the male left of the sixties was chauvinist.

My father marched with the Panthers and shut down Yale for a day. He also marched for Women's rights and always taught me not to be sexist and treat women with integrity.

But it is true, before the Women's Movement demanded change via direct action, there was a lot of ingrained chauvinism in the late sixties that led to things like the Manson Family.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

28. You bet your bippy!

:)

[Book Lover]

21. You can be pissed off

We won't mind :-)

[July]

29. "We Can Work It Out" always annoys me.

I like the music, but the lyrics always translate in my mind to "Admit you're wrong or it's your fault if we break up."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. Sorry, I don't see either "Wild World" or "Sad Lisa" as

particularly sexist. A little paternalistic, maybe, and with "Sad Lisa," a pretty good description of the type of man who always wants to "rescue" women involved in bad relationships, but compared to "This Girl is a Woman Now" or "Having My Baby," it's quite mild.

And yes, I re-checked the lyrics.

[dorktv]

35. Whip out Gloria Gaynor's I Will Survive and blast his eardrums.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

41. Celebrity Deathmatch - Cat Stevens VS Gloria Gaynor

:)

[Mike Daniels]

36. Lot of early Gordon Lightfoot was chauvanistic as well

Reading the song by song liner notes of the GL box set is pretty humorous as Gordon spends about half the time apologizing for all the chauvanistic attitudes in the early songs vs talking about the songs themselves.

I can't develop too much outrage though as it was a product of the times and based on listening to a recent Cat Steven's box set it wasn't the primary theme through the majority of his work.

You might as well be outraged at about 80% of all R&B as that format has been loaded with paternalistic and chauvanistic imagery towards women since the beginning of time.

[Nadienne]

37. I always thought the song was about

A father's advice to his daughter...

'Course that makes the line "Now that I've lost everything to you..." a little confusing...

I guess I should have listened more closely. :silly: