The State Of Education In This Country SUCKS!!

[mermaid]

I'm looking especially for input from TEACHERS here...but others are welcome to post, too.

Standardized tests show who has better memory retention, and who can regurgitate information on demand...but they do not test the ability to engage in CRITICAL THINKING and PROBLEM SOLVING.

Example, if I can memorize, say, the multiplication tables to 12 times 12...and can, on demand, regurgitate an answer for a test...does that show that I CAN multiply?? Or does it show that I can regurgitate on command?

Does it show that, if I was asked, that I could multiply 13 by, say, 16? Nope. Just shows I can regurgitate an answer if you ask me to multiply eight by seven.

Far better that we teach children HOW to arrive at the correct answer...so that they can then use that knowledge to arrive at OTHER correct answers.

But, because school funding hinges now on the results of these standardized tests, the teachers are forced into teaching to the test...and teaching children to regurgitate on command...and NOT teaching them any critical thinking skills...or HOW to arrive at answers.

We have it all so bass-ackward in our current educational system. I really feel sorry for you teachers who have to put up with this sort of BS.

Again, I am more a self-taught person, I learned more on my own than I was ever taught in school. I learned, for myself, where to look to find answers to things I did not know. I learned how to think about HOW I arrived at the answers for problems...so that I could solve other problems.

Sure, memory retention is part of learning...but if memory retention is ALL that is being taught...in order to prepare kids to pass these standardized tests, so that your school doesn't get penalized in lost funding...then our kids are being done a grave disservice.

Just as an example...this is one of my favorite word problems:
Imagine that a man, six feet tall, walked around the Earth, at the equator (25,000) miles. How much further would his head travel than his feet? (Teachers: I challenge you to give this question to your students as an Extra Credit question on a test, and see how many of them can get the right answer!!)

Well, I can tell you from memory that the answer is roughly 37 feet, 8 1/3 inches. But how did I arrive at that answer, you see?

Well, I know how to engage in critical thinking. First, since the earth is a sphere (a circle) and this man walked around it, we know we are dealing with a circle, thus the need for the use of pi will come into this.

Secondly, it matters not how far the feet traveled...because the distance the feet traveled is still ONE circle. If the Earth were 50,000 miles around at the equator, the answer would be the same. Because your hypothetical man would have completed one circle.
So...the next thing is...what are the variables?

Well, in this case, the only variable is the radius of the circle made by the man's head...as opposed to the radius of the circle made by the man's feet.

Since we are dealing with a man six feet tall, the radius difference is six feet. Meaning the difference in diameter of the two circles (the one made by his feet, and the one made by his head) is 12 feet (remember, we are talking about a circle here.)

So, to arrive at the answer, we need to multiply the diameter difference, which is 12 feet...by pi...and we have our answer.
So, multiplying 12 by pi (3.14159) yields an answer of 37.69908 feet. So now, we take the .69908 feet and multiply THAT by 12 to find out how many inches that is.

Answer: 8.38896 inches.

So, the correct answer to my word problem is that the man's head travels 37 feet, 8.38896 inches further than his feet. Or, roughly, 37 feet, 8 1/3 inches (close enough.)

Now, anyone could be taught or given the answer to this problem, and regurgitate that answer on demand. BUT, do they possess the critical thinking skills to arrive at the answer themselves? If not, then the educational system has done that student a great disservice.

Now, since I know the METHOD of solving that problem...and possess the critical thinking skills needed to arrive at the answer...I can work out the same problem for a woman, 5 feet tall, making the same walk. The kid who was only taught to regurgitate cannot.

[mrboba1]

1. Excellent post

And you are absolutely correct about the standardized tests. That is what's wrong with all these end of grade tests, not only does it limit what is being learned during a year, but it promotes anxiety amog the students - and in many cases extreme & debilitating anxiety.

[mermaid]

2. Thank You

It also promotes anxiety among teachers...and causes them to teach to the test...and NOT teach to develop critical thinking skills, and analytical ability.

Yes, memory retention is indeed a part of learning. But it is not the end-all, be-all of learning. But the Repukes have forced these sorts of tests down the throats of the educational system...and have pegged school funding to a specific "success rate" on the tests.

I ask how you define "success" in public education? To me, "success" is when you have students who have been taught HOW to arrive at the answers, so that they can then arrive at OTHER answers on their own.

To the Repukes, "success" is an animal that registers BINGO on some meter...and kids that can puke up information on demand...but can't tell you HOW they arrived at the answer.

Then again, critical thinking is the enemy of Repukes and conservo-creeps, so maybe I understand WHY they are pushing these standardized tests that do not test anything except a child's ability to puke on command.

Then again, the conspiracy theorist in me says they want to dismantle the public education system anyway, and use all the tax dollars to fund "private" (read: "religious") schools...so that they can teach all the kids how to be good little bigots. And these standardized tests are the first step in a larger agenda of dismantling public education entirely in our society.

On Edit: In fact, I'll go further. The agenda here is to make sure only rich kids, white kids...get to go to the REALLY GOOD schools...as vouchers will not pay the entire tab for a private school of good quality. Thus, it is a way for them to keep the poor people poor!

Gotta keep the socio-economically disadvantaged in their place, right?

[On the Road]

3. As Far as Conspiracy Theories Go,

There's a lot of evidence that one goal of the public school system when it was introduced a century ago was to instill obedience and have a compliant population.

[sir_captain]

37. What public school system are you talking about?

Public education has existed in this country since the 18th century. And what evidence are you talking about? I'd really like to see it...

[supernova]

4. The problem is we are

still stuck on the old industrial assembly-line education model. It produces great shop floor people who can do assembly line work, but not people who think well-thought out arguments or who problem solve.

And Therein lies the problem. Industry and government increasining want the thinkers and problem solvers (academia has always wanted them) but we are still clinging to the old industrial model.

Why? It's too bloody expensive to change the nature of education. So we fall back on cheap excuses and quick fix solutions like more tests.

[mermaid]

5. I Would Not Call Them

quick fixes...or solutions.
You got it right the first time: Cheap excuses!

The current testing does not solve the problem, it only gives the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of solving the problem.

We Americans are way obsessed of VISIBLE APPEARANCES.

Example: Homeland security. what a joke! We look for the VISIBLE APPEARANCE OF SECURITY...not REAL SECURITY. How about your apartment complex? Does it have a gate and fence? Ah, yes...visible appearance of security. but how secure does it make you?

My car has been broken into twice in less than 3 years, in my gated apartment complex.

We take drugs to CURE THE SYMPTOMS OF SICKNESS (read: the outward appearances of sickness) and do nothing to treat the CAUSE of sickness.

It is not only in our educational system that this mentality exists, as you can see from my examples on Homeland Security, and modern medicine.

[TrogL]

8. There's a much larger problem

Many people simply don't have the brain-smarts to DO critical problem solving or creative stuff for a living.

I'm an old coot and I can remember what the work force was like in the 50's. There were lots and lots and lots of adequately paying no-think jobs. My uncle worked in a factory that made files. It was a Union shop and he made enough money to live comfortably in his own home. He played golf and read mystery novels. He took me to work one time to see what he did for a living. He took raw metal somethings out of a bin and used a heavy machine to make the finished product. In terms of high-powered smarts or creativity - it just wasn't there.

I wonder what he would do in today's economy.

I worry about my daughter. She has some learning disabilities but I figure she'd be able to work a cash register or do something in sales, but making $6.50 CAN an hour. A typical apartment here costs $900 a month. Do the math.

[supernova]

10. "Many people simply don't have the brain-smarts..."

Um, no. I'm not buying that at all. Let's not add diminished expectations to the mix.

Many people can think very well. But you have to give them the tools to know how to do it. And that's something we have been unwilling to do so far in our educational system. I swear sometimes I got my mind in spite of my schooling, not because if it. :P :D I learned quite early there was a whole lot of material to learn that I simply was not being exposed to in class.

I agree about your daughter. I don't know what people with LDs or who are mentally handicapped and also functioning will do for a living in this economy. I'm barely sustaining myself as it is. My heart goes out to you.

[mermaid]

16. Beautiful!!

You got right to the nub of my words in the initial posting!
WE HAVE TO GIVE OUR KIDS THE TOOLS TO BE ABLE TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES!!
We aren't doing that.
And, like you, I got my mind IN SPITE of my schooling, not because of it.
Like you, I realized there was a lot of material I was not being exposed to in class. And like you, I went out in search of it.

And yes, it is heart-wrenching to think what will happen to people with learning disabilities, or other mental handicaps, but otherwise functioning, and what they will do for a living in this economy.

And again, we treat only the symptoms. So we pump the kids up full of Ritalin. They aren't acting out anymore, so the problem must be solved, right? Wrong! Only the SYMPTOMS have been treated. Giving the APPERANCE of "problem solved."

[Nay]

28. Thank you, TrogL. I am an old coot also, and wish I could impress

upon others the falsity of the idea that if we just shove enough "education" at everyone, everyone will be able to do brain work. It just ain't so. There are already millions of teachers not smart enough to teach, car mechanics not smart enough to fix cars, mangers not smart enough to manage, etc. etc.

The question that must be answered is: "Societally, how do we deal with people who are never going to have much in the way of skills or brainpower?"

The corollary to this question is: "Why, after forcing everyone to increase their schooling to get better jobs, do we ship those very jobs overseas and blame the striving worker for wanting a return on his money?"

[cosmicdot]

6. we can hope the real deal will bring all schools up to 21st and beyond

digital cabling might be just a start

construction, surveying, interiors, planners

gathering best practices at the local level, and sharing them with all

I see jobs here ...

We hold these truths !!!

[TrogL]

7. Memory has its place

You at least were able to "regurgitate" the correct formula. I'd have had to go look it up. However, I'd know where to look it up and what it meant.

I'm much more worried about the religious schools who would claim the entire question is irrelevant because:

• The bible says the earth is flat
  
• The bible says pi * 10 = 30.0 not 31.0 (rounded)
  
• The bible says hell is "down". If you walked around the earth you would pass through hell.
  

[mermaid]

15. Ah...But What Is "Down???"

who's to say WE are up?
maybe the bible is correct, and Australia is UP!! Might explain why THIS country is going to HELL!!

[smelcher]

9. or another answer is

his feet and head arrived at the exact same spot at the exact same time and since both (head and feet)traveled at the same rate of speed, they both covered the same distance. Hum must have missed a variable.

An a more serious note. This is not an educational problem. This is a parenting problem. Until parents do exactly what you have done with their own children. Use examples and questions to continue to stretch a child's mind, or the child will be mediocre. Parents need to parent, giving total control of a child's education to a school, regardless of ,private, parochial, or public is foolish

[mermaid]

14. Nope. that would Be A WRONG ANSWER...

The head and feet did NOT arrive at the same exact spot. They arrived AT TWO DIFFERENT SPOTS at the exact same time. The head arrived at a spot six feet away from the spot the feet arrived at.

Both the head and the feet traveled in a complete circle. But, since the head was always six feet away from the feet, the head traversed a circle that was twelve feet in diameter LARGER than the circle the feet traversed. Therefore, they DID NOT travel at the same rate of speed.

But thanks for trying.

At least you engaged in some critical thinking, and arrived at an answer...and backed up HOW you arrived at your answer. but the variable you missed is that the head actually traversed a larger cirle relative to the circle the feet traveled.

Therefore, the head actually was travelling at a rate of speed greater than the feet.

You got trapped into thining of the earth as flat, and going around it as if it were a pie-plate, rather than a sphere.

So, gang...next time you claim that you would lose your head...(joke)

But, in all seriousness, the variable...or rather, the condition you missed in this case, was that you were travelling around a sphere, and not around a pie plate.

[Bill McBlueState]

34. yep, same angular velocity

different linear velocity

[mermaid]

40. True

But every degree of the arc travelled by the head encompassed more space than every degree of the arc travelled by the feet.

Same angular velocity, yes. Same linear velocity, no.
And, on a line, the head travelled further than the feet.

[smelcher]

52. this was fun

and thanks to the original post

I fully understood what the math problem was, two diferrent sizes of spheres.

There is another point tho, that small mathmatical differences really dont have any impact an a lot of our decissions.

Thanks for playing

[ulysses]

11. critical thinking?

I'm not sure we've every really tried to teach it, but I agree that it's what we should be teaching as opposed to all of the testing bullshit.

Hmmm...feeling an education GD thread coming on...

[mermaid]

18. No, We NEVER HAVE Tried To Teach Critical Thinking

That is too individualized. People learn critical thinking at different speeds. Can't have that in the conformity mill that our schools have always been. We want cookie-cutter results, to keep costs down.

Problem is...that worked okay, when most jobs were cookie-cutter jobs....assembly-line, etc.

Not going to work in the workforce of today.

The real sad thing is that no child is being left behind...EVERY CHILD IS BEING LEFT BEHIND!!!

[smelcher]

54. Not true

Every child is not being left behind. America creates some of the most innovative thinkers on this planet. Other countries feed of of American ingenuity and expound and refine the inventions of America.
I once heard some reply to the question of 'How do we stop the Asian market from gobbling up all of the electronics manufacturing jobs?'

Answer: I don't care, because the reason for the existence of these products is to utilize what is created in America. With out America creativity DVD, VCR, Gameboys, i pods, and the rest would not exist.

The 'we' that is referred to, I am not sure. My spouse and I teach critical thinking everyday. Not long a go my daughter asked "Why cant we find a cure for AIDS?" my response was,what is AIDS? after a little prompting we fell upon the answer that Aids was a virus and with a little more discussion she used her education and realized that we have never cured a virus and vaccination would be the only cure

Want kids to have critical thinking skills? That may have fallen to the parents. The teachers or much to busy teaching about diversity, homosexuality, oppression, child abuse, saving the environment, sleeping in boxes to support the homeless, and a myriad of other topics that do not add to critical thinking skills, rather the NEA's political agenda

[LWolf]

12. Yes, it does.

I've posted reams about it here on DU already over the last 18 months.

Anxiety doesn't cause us to teach to the test; our admins do. Because they order us directly to do so. And our district hires expensive consultants to give us mandatory "staff development" in how to teach to the test exactly the way they want us to; how to follow the script.

And not many of us will buck the admins. Tenure or no, if your class scores poorly, you're going to find yourself fighting for your life. If you can provide plenty of evidence and documentation that you did exactly as you were told, you have more ammunition.

Critical thinking can be infused naturally into the curriculum; it's not the content, but the way you teach it. Critical thinking can be part of the classroom environment, as natural as breathing. But not when you are forced to use scripted methods of instruction that value low level, rote memorization and recitation over inquiry.

And of course, those of us who fight back are wide-open to scapegoating.

[mermaid]

13. Your Anxiety Then

Is a result of pressure from above.
But you cannot deny the anxiety is there.

[LWolf]

19. Oh, absolutely.

I've spent my summer dealing with physical breakdowns brought on by stress. And facing the fact that, while I've always felt called to my profession; I've always loved what I do; I've always, according to my students, their families, and my colleagues and admins, been good at what I do...I don't want to go back. I dread walking back into the classroom. If I had another means of support, I wouldn't go back.

[mermaid]

26. I Feel For You

You understand the problem, but are not able to fix the problem, because, if you try, you will be cut off at the knees from up above, by administrators that favor "results" (money) over REAL EDUCATION.

too many people in this country are playing "Cover My Own Ass" and you end up, as a teacher, getting unwillingly dragged along for the ride.

And the real losers in this are the students who will not be prepared for the real world, and the workforce.

No child is being left behind...EVERY CHILD IS BEING LEFT BEHIND!!!

P.S. On Edit: I wonder if there is a politician out there with the gonads to say that.

[LWolf]

48. There are people saying it.

I don't know about politicians. Here's a list of prominent people organizing opposition:

Jerry Bracey of Eddra.
Susan O'Hanion.
Ken Goodman.
Stephen Krashen.
William Cala

Ken Goodman ran a 1/4 page ad in the Boston Globe Monday doing exactly that, to coincide with the Convention kick-off. It included a long list of educators and others endorsing it; my name was there.

[Donkeyboy75]

17. I'll say. Your grasp of geography is terrible.

Education isn't a state. :dunce:

In all seriousness, though, I couldn't agree more. I have taught science classes at a "Top 10" university, and although many students were quite bright, I was amazed at the overall dearth of problem-solving skills.

[mermaid]

20. ????

Whose grasp of geography is terrible?
Mine?
I posed a hypothetical question, and for the sake of simplicity I rounded the distance, 25,000 miles around the Earth at the equator, which is close.

I am, of course, quite well aware that there is nowhere in the world, in actuality, that one COULD walk completely around it.

My question was hypothetical. It was to demostrate what I meant when I was talking about critical thinking.

Maybe I shoulda used the Moon, or Mars, then, because, theoretically, one COULD walk completely around them, since neither possess oceans...

Although, using the Moon or Mars...would result in the same answer, so long as ONE EXACT CIRCLE AROUND THE SPHERE is completed. Because the one variable is the relative difference between the diameter of the circle travelled by the feet, as opposed to the one travelled by the head.

My point was...since I know how to break down the problem...I can now solve for it if the walker is a five-foot tall woman. The kid who has only been taught to puke on command...he cannot solve for the five-foot tall woman.

[Donkeyboy75]

23. Sorry, Merm!

I made a poor joke about Education not being a state...geography...get it?

I put the dunce icon there because it was such a stupid pun. :hi:

The rest of my post was serious, though. Teaching students for the sake of passing a test is nothing short of idiocy.

[mermaid]

24. OK

I missed the joke. My bad.
And we certainly do agree that teaching for the sake of passing a test is nothing short of idiocy. I believe my posts thus far on this thread have been crystal-clear on my opinion of this practice.

[Yavin4]

21. As Someone Who Is Currently Studying For My Oracle Certs

I can honestly say that such tests are a complete waste of time and energy, and it does not prove if I can be a good Oracle DBA or not. Like the poster said, it just proves that I can retain massive amounts of Oracle "trivia".

[mermaid]

22. Exactly!!

It shows you can puke on command.
But when you are confronted with a problem for which you have not been supplied the answer...DO YOU POSSESS THE CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS TO SOLVE FOR IT??
Sadly, for most, the answer is probably, "No."

Yes, memory retention is a PART of learning. where retention is useful is in retaining the CRITICAL THINKING TOOLS...and the methodology for solving problems.

Instead, we are just teaching kids to memorize the answers, and puke them up on command...instead of what we OUGHT to be teaching them...memorizing the FORMULAS AND METHODS that will allow them to arrive at the answer for themselves!

Now, my example happens to be math, because it is easiest to demonstrate this in math. And, math problems have only one correct answer.

Now, I could give a problem in a different area...we could both apply critical thinking to that problem...and arrive at two different solutions, and we might both be right! Not so in math.

[HuckleB]

25. Why do you hate your teacher?

;)

[Deja Q]

27. They want us all to be burger flippers and walmart greeters, that is why.

Those of us who managed to transcend the sheer joke of "public" (or even "private" in many cases) school suffer the most because we THINK.

The state of education is far from the only problem at hand...

[mermaid]

29. Like I Said, Much Earlier On...

They want to keep us in our place....

Thinking is the enemy of conservative right wingnuts, it threatens the status quo...the status quo that benefits them at the expense of everyone else.

[Nikia]

32. I agree. People who think are unsuitable for most work.

Articles say that employers want people who think critically and creatively. In some communities, they complain that all the smart people move away. At some companies and for some jobs that is true to some extent. For most jobs, they want you to perform your own little skill or task at the direction of a supervisor who isn't as good at it as you are. You aren't suppose to question authority. You are suppose to do what you are told. Unless you know someone who is high up in a company, you are never going to get one of those jobs requiring critical thinking until you've worked for at least 5 years doing related mindless work and have a good degree. Even then, how do they know who can really think when they have 100 qualified applicant's resumes on their desk for a single position? Industry is better served when the majority of people don't think. Public schools provide for that.

[smelcher]

53. They want us

The they you refer to is? If my 2 kids want to work at WAl Mart and find happiness, that would be there choice. But as parents we demanded that both kids performed at the maximum of there abilities,both will have degrees after that if Wal Mart is their world, so be it, BUT the NEA or Government is not the predetermining factor

[The Flaming Red Head]

30. prep academies for the penitentiary

My son has ADD so standardized test have been horrible to him. We sent him to a special school, but then the test measuring the school’s worth became a big deal even for kids with learning disabilities, so they pushed him out to a school for children with discipline problems and everything went from bad to worse.

They were horrified at this school that my son was not on court supervised probation and vowed to do something about it, but I pointed out to them he broken no laws and they immediately became suspicious of me.

These alternative schools are prep academies for the penitentiary, teaching children the rules they will need to be model prisoners. I attended a conference and inquired about computer access at this school. My son is an avid internet/music/writing fan and one of the special educators (at another school) had suggested that he be allowed to keyboard since he is a lefty and has trouble with fine motor coordination skills. They told me there wasn’t one computer in the whole school. I looked and all the text books were at least 10 to 12 years old. I pulled him out and we are trying home learning.

Right now he’s been reading on the internet about vo-tech and community college (he’s 16) and he wants to see if he can enroll early. So instead of court and jail, hopefully he will be a student again, soon.


I'm not off topic with this because when the test become the over riding measure of a school's worthiness children like my son are the ones left behind.

[Jim__]

31. How much further would his head travel than his feet?

One of the main problems I had in school was seeing why I would ever care about the answer to that question. I agree with a lot of what you said about the futility of tests and the need for critical thinking. However, I think human beings are natural problem solvers. We love to solve problems. But school fails to tap into that love. When I was in school, year after year I would wonder what possible use I would ever have for math.

I've been working a long time, and on damn near every job I've ever had math has been extremely useful. And, I love figuring out how to solve problems. But school never showed me the utility of the things they were teaching me; and, never presented problems in a way that piqued my attention.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

33. The Kid that memorized C=2*pi*r would have no problem

As with the alphabet, multiplication tables, etc. certain basic formulas should be committed to memory.

[Bill McBlueState]

35. i agree, there's a place for memorization

You could say one of the aspects of intelligence is knowing what's worth memorizing and what isn't.

If you're an astronomer, you better have the speed of light committed to memory. But nobody's going to notice if you have to look up the distance to Pluto every now and then. (Well, yeah, unless you're one of the four people who actually studies Pluto...)

[bbernardini]

36. I do what I can to teach critical thinking in the arts...

Music, specifically. My basic theory is to expose the kids to as much music as possible (mostly within what one could call a really broad "pop" realm), and ask them what they like and don't like about it. You'd be surprised how many 8th graders can become fans of The Polyphonic Spree and John Coltrane that way. It seems to stick as they move on into high school as well. I've had former students turn me on to some really cool music (The Red Elvises, for one).

[sir_captain]

38. How

is one supposed to multiply 13 by 16 if one does not have 3 X 6 memorized? Ironically, the "method" that you used to solve that problem was based on your memorization of the formula for the circumfrence of a circle in relationship to its diameter. You have really shown that both certain base rote knowledge and the ability to *apply* it are what are necessary to think critically.

Attacking the memorization of basic concepts is not fruitful. Today's education theory uses far less rote memorization than it ever has before, and frankly, much less memorization than in the European and Asian systems, which deemphasize critical thinking even more than American schools.

I think it is much more to the point that critical thinking skills cannot be learned in overrun classrooms with no books, broken desks, and under-trained teachers depserately trying to teach 35 kids on a $30,000 salary.

I agree with you about standardized tests, though--at least at the basic level. Tests like the SATIIS and the GRE subject tests, not to mention tests like the MCAT and so on, do very much test critical thinking skills, but 99% of students from our public education system will never come close to having the academic tools to deal with those kinds of tests.

[mermaid]

41. I Have Never Stated Otherwise

Memorization IS useful in learning. But what you should be memorizing is the METHOD of HOW you arrive at an answer on your own. Instead, kids are just taught to memorize THE ANSWER, and puke it back on command.
then, when they are confronted with something they were not prepared for, they do not have the TOOLS to deal with it.

[sir_captain]

43. I don't agree with you

memorizing the method to solve one sort of word problem is just as useless as simply memorizing the answer to a very specific one. The example you gave is an extremely simple physics problem--in that case, what needs to be taught are the relationships (theoretical and formulaic) between circles, displacement, velocity, etc. That includes memorization of mathematical formulas (which are in turn dependent on rote memorization of things such as the multiplication table or the definition of fractions.) Simply memorizing a method is not enough--there needs to be an intuitive understanding of the basic concepts underlying the problem in order for it to be solved critically.

[LWolf]

46. Hello.

I have to dispute part of this:

Attacking the memorization of basic concepts is not fruitful. Today's education theory uses far less rote memorization than it ever has before, and frankly, much less memorization than in the European and Asian systems, which deemphasize critical thinking even more than American schools.

We do not use far less rote memorization than ever before. We moved away from rote memorization for a while; a good thing, in my professional opinion. We have bounced straight back. The methods being shoved down our throat in elementary school today fly in the face of research about how the brain works and how people learn; and it bears a close resemblance to classrooms 100 years ago, with kids reciting everything along with, or after, the teacher.

I don't disagree that some things need to be memorized. I don't think as many things need to be memorized as they are pushing. Information, and our access to it, is expanding at a much faster rate than ever before. We can't memorize it all. Which is more important? Knowing the sequence of events that led to the American Revolution, and understanding all of the complex underlying issues, or being able to recite exact dates and documents?

The difference between teaching kids to memorize arithmetic facts and helping them develop number sense is astounding. We need both; basic facts and the understanding of how the number system works so that we can apply it practically. The "memorize facts" crew, though, never goes any further than memorize the fact, memorize the procedure. If a student forgets a fact or a procedure, he or she is lost.

My students, on the other hand, know their facts. But if they didn't, they'd still be fine. They can tell you multiple ways to find an answerto complex problems. And they can explain why it works that way. They memorize their facts; it allows them to work more efficiently. But that is the least of what we do. Just a tool, not the goal.

[sir_captain]

47. We don't disagree at all

if you look at my other posts in this thread, you'll probably see that. My point is that there is nothing wrong with the memorization of certain *basic* concepts such as the multiplication table or the definition of fractions. Without such basic knowledge, gaining number sense would be quite difficult.

You criticize those who simply "memorize the procedure." Again, if you look at my other posts in this thrad, you'll see that's also what I was criticizing. I majored in history at one of the premier higher educational institutions in this country, and I couldn't tell you nearly any exact dates pertaining to the American revolution, so don't worry, you don't need to convince me. ;-)

Anyway, sounds like you're a great teacher--as I said before, I think the most important step in developing critical thinking skills is having teachers who care about their students the way you obviously do.

[LWolf]

49. I agree with that.

:hi:

The first and most important step is the care. When you really care about and for them, you work your ass off to find a way to help them find success. No matter what way they happen to need, and whether or not it fits your personal preference.

If we are really educating we're always negotiating a fine line of balance between fact memorization and conceptual understanding. You've got that right.

[jmowreader]

39. The state of education in NC has sucked for a long time

Especially the "reading rulers" part of the curriculum.

Far, far too many of my customers come in "I need something 86 inches long." Or "I need something nine inches and three lines long." Three lines. My equipment is calibrated in 1/32" increments; the average "three lines" customer is using a cloth tape that's calibrated in quarters. There is a slight difference between 3/32" and 3/4".

Another good one: a guy showed up last week with the measurements of a roof he was working on. He told me that these were the dimensions of the roof panels. Then he started screaming, after the job was done, that we didn't sell him enough shingles. Actually, he measured fascia-to-fascia on a church roof with 14-on-12 pitch: for every 12 inches of run, the roof rose 14 inches--the steepest roof I've ever dealt with. So let's play with some numbers:

The roof was 70 feet fascia-to-fascia. The vertex is 490 inches long, base is 420. The slope, therefore, is 645.368 inches, or 53.780 feet. On a roof that's 140 feet long, each panel contains 7530 square feet. A gable roof has two panels, so the roof is 15,060 square feet. The roof he described, on the other hand, was 9800 square feet.

By not knowing how to measure a roof, this guy wound up buying the church $1682 worth of shingles. That will teach you how to do math.

[DrWeird]

42. Ah, but what is the difference in displacement?

What is the difference in speed between the head and the foot? How about velocity? Ignoring friction, what was the difference in amount of work performed?

[sir_captain]

44. Ah, but doc

you'd have to *memorize* the difference between speed and velocity in order to answer that!

Just kidding...I don't at all mean to belittle the original poster's point, which I don't think is totally wrong--it's simply more complicated.

[Elidor]

45. One unfortunate side note

Is that our schools don't even teach good methods of rote memorization: they cram it all down their throats without teaching them a good method of retrieval. I was taught the Silva method as a youngun, and I was stunned to realize there are ways to assign mnemonics and symbols to things. Most public schools don't even touch on this.

You talk about what we teach our students: what we teach our teachers isn't much better in many cases. My SO's masters program in college hasn't even prepared her for taking the state exam for certification.

[PVnRT]

50. The NEA president

spoke this afternoon at the DNC Convention - get a copy of his speech, you can probably snag it on C-Span's website.

[Shrubhater]

51. There is a flaw in your thread.

The exact distance around the earth is 24,870 miles. And the earth is not a perfect sphere. And a more exact value of pi is 3.1415926535893. so you will have to recalibrate your answer. Luckily, I can engage in critical thinking well. Not bad for being 13 years old, huh? I'm a lot better at this stuff than my mom, liberalhistorian. But she's a lot better at reading and English and writing than me, though. I prefer math and science. My mom could spend days trying to figure out the answer! I still think she's really, really smart though!

[mermaid]

55. Hmmm

first of all, the distance around the sphere does not matter, so long as exactly one complete circuit of the sphere is made. I believe I stated so. And I would be correct.
And I stated that the answer I gave WAS approximate. That the variables I used were approximate. Certainly, they were close enough for government work!
But, no, not bad for a 13 year old! I'm betting you taught yourself this...or your parents taught you...you sure didn't learn THAT in a public school!

So, let's look at your points.

1. The exact distance around the earth is 24,870 miles.
Fair enough, I concede the point. However, the difference in DIAMETER of the circles made, respectively, by the feet and by the head...is still twelve feet. And hence, it matters not the size of the sphere, so long as we are talking about one complete trip around the sphere, no more, no less. so the size of the sphere doesn't really matter.
2. The earth is not an exact sphere.
I'll concede the point. But it is close enough to being a perfect sphere to where one can approximate the answer. Again, this was a hypothetical question, since, as I also stated somewhere in the thread...there is no place where land stretches all the way arund the earth to where you COULD walk around it (unless of course, you were Jesus, and could walk on water!)
3. You give a value of pi that carries out to more decimal places than I did. I gave 3.14159 as my value for pi. You give 3.1415926535893
I'll take your word for it. But even still, you will notice your value of pi also starts out 3.14159!

SO...
Let us make a few assumptions here.
1. I conced to you the earth is 24,870 miles around, so we will change that variable
2. I concede to you your value of pi over my own.
3. YOU concede to me that, for purposes of this hypothetical question, the the earth is a perfect sphere.
Thus, I conceded two points to you, and you concede one to me. I think that is fair. It is not possible to actually calculate the answer to the question I posed unless you DO assume the earth is a perfect sphere...and it is close enough.

The diameter of the circles STILL is twelve feet different.
So, we multiply 12 by 3.1415926535893
The answer we get now is 37.6991118430716 feet

So now we multiply 12 by .6991118430716 to find out how many inches that is...the answer is 8.3893421168592 inches. Still close enough to call it 8 1/3 inches.
My original answer on the inches was 8.38896 - so we still were very very close in our answers.
smart-butt! :P

[amazona]

56. IS memory retention being taught ?

In my day, while yes, school was mostly a matter of teachers repeating the same thing over and over, memory retention was not being taught in any real sense -- hence, the situation of kids taking 12 years to learn less math than we were told a Russian kid would learn in 6 years. It takes more than drill and repitition to form a memory. When I was very young, I had a near-photographic memory, but as I aged out of having an excellent memory, I had to look outside of the classroom and find books to teach myself how to memorize fast and effectively.

Sure, some teachers toss out a mnemonic or two but very little, if any, time was spent on showing kids how to reinforce memories. Therefore, since I studied "how to memorize" texts (even though they might be considered pop psych), I had a tremendous advantage over my classmates -- not just in answering rote questions but in essays too because I could actually come up with facts to bolster my arguments.

Being able to remember what you were taught IS a key foundation of critical thinking. Not being able to remember, and having to spend year after year basically going over the same ground (especially in math) instead of building and going further, is a huge waste of time in my view. We do need to teach effective memory training skills. And I don't think we are. It is sort of a pet peeve of mine that most people hardly remember anything, when you sit down and talk to them.

[mermaid]

57. again, i hHave Never Said Otherwise

BUT, when memory retention geared to the passing of a specific test, in order to gain funding for schools is ALL that is being taught, the kids are being done a grave disservice.
I stand by my statement.

[sir_captain]

59. That statement

is not completely the same as your original post, I think, where you seem to be critical of such basics as the multiplication table. I don't think anyone here would disagree with you about the insidious role of standardized testing in both education policy and in education funding...

[bleedingheart]

58. I blame parents and society

How about the parents who keep telling their kids to stop asking so many questions?

How about the parents who don't take the time to sit down and further explain how things work?

How about the kids who enter kindergarten without having been read a story by their parents?

How about the kids who have parents who are more gung-ho for soccer and baseball than making sure that the kid actually understands the homework?

I have a young child who is in elementary school. The first three years have been spent learning skills that will give that child the opportunity to think critically. The textbooks are very good and they have home assignments that the parents can use to teach their kids even more; however if you have a family that does not value education then it takes a lot of self motivation to move forward and in many cases the cycle of poor education keeps repeating itself.

As to your statement "I learned more by myself than I was taught in school"...to be honest I think that is true of most individuals. Schools are not there to teach you "everything", they are there to give you the skills to teach yourself and to solve problems using those skills as well as skills the student may already possess. The best schools provide the students with an array of subject matters hoping that each child/adult will find the subject that appeals to them.

[mermaid]

60. You Are Quite Correct!

Parents are key.
I remember my father and I played a game, when I was growing up. We played this until I was about 10 years old.
every day, I had to try and look up, or find a word in the dictionary that would stump my dad. I tried to find words he didn't know. And he, also once a day, would try and find a word to stump ME with.

This greatly increased my vocabulary skills...as well as taught me to use a dictionary when I did not know the meaning of a word.

After age ten, we changed the game. We began using a Thesaurus, and using words we already knew, tried to come up with as many synonyms for a word we already knew as we could...then looked in the Thesaurus to find more.

Math I never needed much help in, I was always good at that. Except geometry, which isn't really math to me. That's shapes and angles, and theorems and proofs...not NUMBERS!! HATED geometry!

So, of course, my dad would do his best to try to make me study some every day with him...and help me with the theory. I never DID come to like geometry, but at least I got to a point where I was able to DO it...and understand what I was doing!

My dad was a very integral part of my education in this way.

And it don't take a whole lot of time to do for your kids what my dad did for me. Just do one word a day, for each of you! Try to stump one another! It's fun for your kid, especially when he/she succeeds in stumping you. It makes it FUN to look up words in the dictionary.

There are, as you can see, simple, effective, and not too time-consuming ways to make learning fun. All it takes is a little effort.

[blindpig]

61. critical thinking is not good for advertising

nor propaganda. You wanna wreck this country?

[skippysmom]

62. If we start teaching kids to think

they may not vote Republican anymore! :)