Rock and Roll owes more to Jazz than to Blues

[patcox2]

Okay, it seems to me that rock music is much more closely related to jazz than to blues, blues crept into it later.

I see Rock as an offshoot of big band swing. "Sing Sing Sing" may be the first rock song ever. The song structures and the frequent instrumental solos of big band swing are almost defining attributes of rock.

Big band swing begat western swing, which was defined by prominent use of the electric guitar. Folk influence entered here. Bill Haley and the Comets was essentially a western swing band.

And from there to Buddy Holly is a short step. And the Beatles are named after Buddy Holly's band, so that influence is undeniable.

So, all the undergraduate pseudo-intellectual posturing I had to endure, all the old WPA cultural heritage recordings of old bluesmen with strange names like chickenleg jones or bleeding gums murphy, and all the blather about how the roots of rock are in blues, thats all crap. It was all Led Zeppelin propaganda. The roots of Led Zeppelin were in blues. But not Rock itself.

[wtmusic]

1. 12 bars

all I need to say.

[Lin]

2. As Elvis said, it's a bit of everything, gospel, jazz, LOTTA spiritual

I agree about the Jazzy "Sing Sing Sing" Do you have access to the "Elvis 2nd to none" CD? It's EP's top ten hits..Listen to "King Creole" it proves your own theory.

[Magrittes Pipe]

3. R&B and (to a lesser extent) country.

Rhythm & Blues as a distinctive entity from "blues."

Listen to some of the R&B records of the late '40s -- this is rock & roll, it just didn't have that name yet. Yes, there is a swing element to the music (the "rhythm" aspect of the sobriquet), but it is also rooted in blues.

Blues is dance music. When Southern Black guitarists and pianists played their music for dances (music that had decended from spirituals, work songs, African rhythms, and even the slaveowners' European folk ballads), the resulting creole became what we know as "blues." The lineage of rock & roll back to R&B back to Blues is pretty clear, methinks.

I think where you're missing the boat is in your idea of "The Blues." The Chicago electric blues style is really a fusion of blues, R&B, and rock & roll. Yes, Howlin' Wolf was a Delta shouter, but he played with Buddy Guy -- really a rock and R&B guitarist. The earliest electric players (think Lightnin' Hopkins) stayed in the Folk Blues tradition, and are more relevant to rock music.

There's also the country element. Rock's parents were not equal partners -- R&B was responsible for probably 75% of what became rock & roll, Country was more of the deadbeat dad.

But you know what? Country comes from blues.

Just as blues was a mixture of many antecedents, country also descended from more than one source. For blues, Euro-balladry was secondary to the more Afro-centric musics; while for country, the European balladic tradition was in the forefront. That said, country was also influenced significantly by Southern Black music: work songs, spirituals... BLUES.

Even though black & white folk were segregated, their music was not (musicians were always on the fringes, anyway). There was a lot of conversation going on between musical styles. It was this conversation that led, ultimately, to rock & roll.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

12. I think the error of this thread is in the differentiation of jazz & blues

Jazz has always had a deep and abiding undercurrent of blues. Miles Davis, in his autobiography, spoke of how he was captivated by the music he would here in old shack juke joints near his uncle's place in the 30's (I believe it was in Texas) It formed a deep foundation for his musical expression. Alot of the jazz influences that show up in Rock & Roll are the jazz influences that have the most blues infused in them.

[Magrittes Pipe]

15. Also, there is a great deal of difference between...

"a blues," which is a very specific song structure -- akin to "a waltz;" and "the blues," which is a much less specific genre.

Many jazz standards are blues in the specific sense. So are many rock and country tunes. In the general sense... well, let's just say I'm not a big fan of generalizations when it comes to music. The same song could often be said to be "blues," "rock," "country." It's not easily pinned down.

[Frances]

4. I am no expert

but I know that Hank Williams was influenced by an unnamed African American man who played blues. And Elvis was influenced by Hank Williams. Elvis was also influenced by Afrian American blues and gospel music as well as white gospel music.

You just couldn't grow up when and where Elvis did without hearing blues on the radio. In my small Alabama town in the 50s, the locally owned radio station played 30 minutes of African American blues every day. At night you could hear blues music coming out of Tennessee radio stations.

I think there were a lot of influences on rock and roll. It's true that African American jazz influenced big band swing music and that influenced western swing which influenced Buddy Holly.

But you can't leave out the powerful influence of the blues.

[Lin]

7. It's been ainspiration to read of how music of all

kinds was promoted and young ppl exposed to it in the South, I was born in 56 and music came to me pretty much through my older sister & jukeboxes & transister radios, it was more catch as catch can,

There DEFINITELY was not as much promotion ie: live concerts/live IN studio performances etc. Seem to me the southern states Tenn. for example, really exposed the youth to more variety and with more passion, (had places to go listen to 78's) I don't recall much of that in New England in the 60's....maybe was just my experiece tho

[Frances]

8. I moved from Alabama to Boston in 1967

The musical experiences were very different in the two places.

Alabama was mostly small farms and small towns in the 50s. The only live music I experienced was at school and church; it was all performed by church members and students. When we had dances, we played records. Everybody listened to the radio during the day where we heard weather and crop reports, local news, and mainly country music which was supplanted by rock-a-billy (which I think combined country and blues). The blues came on at night from Tenn.

When I moved to Boston, Harvard had a 30 minute program on Saturday mornings called Hillbilly at Harvard, but that was the only country music I heard. I remember that they played Loretta Lynn and some Bluegrass. I liked both but neither had the kind of blues influence that Hank Williams and Elvis had. I think there were at least 2 radio stations playing classical music. The Boston Pops, conducted by Fiedler, played on the Commons. I did hear folk music on the radio but it was not as down home as country music. I heard the Beatles and other rock music on the radio. My sense is that the music I heard in Boston was not nearly as influenced by African American music as the music I heard in Alabama.

[Bridget Burke]

19. Hank Williams was NOT influenced by an unnamed African-American.

His teacher was named Rufus Payne.

Local influences shaped Hank's music more profoundly than the big stars of the day. The gospel songs of both the black and white communities taught him that music, whether sacred or secular, must have a spiritual component. He learned traditional folk ballads and early country songs from neighbors and friends, and blues from a local African-American street musician, Rufus Payne (also known as Teetot). Payne not only taught Hank how to play the guitar, but helped him overcome his innate shyness. The blues feel that suffuses much of Hank Williams' work is almost certainly Teetot's legacy.

www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/williams_h.html

All the country pioneers had specific African-American influences. Lesley Riddle helped A P Carter collect songs & taught Mother Maybelle some guitar licks.

www.slipcue.com/music/country/countryartists/carterfamily.html

Bill Monroe learned from a street musician named Arnold Schultz. Jimmie Rodgers recorded his Blue Yodels & was backed by Louis Armstrong on a couple of recordings. Then there's Bob Wills.... Lots more here:

www.birthplaceofcountrymusic.org/index.cgi?BISKIT=1160319418&CONTEXT=cat&cat=10043

Jazz or blues? Western swing or honky-tonk? Old timey or Bluegrass? It's all American music.

[Magrittes Pipe]

24. "It's all American music."

Thank you. :)

[bo44]

5. Name the five styles of rock and roll

You are splitting hairs with your argument. Of course rock and roll artists were influenced by big band as much as solo blues artists but you are missing the point when you attempt to exclude the blues as the primary influence on rock and roll. Big Band is an off shoot of the blues. The blues are the underpinning of every style of popular music. Louie Jordan's jump blues is left out of your argument in how swing music styles influenced some early rock and roll musicians. Electric blues combos fronted by guitarists out of Chicago is left out of your argument. The Memphis horn band is left out as well. What to make of the doo wop of the east coast? Let us not forget the stride piano driven boogie of New Orleans? Let us not leave out the influence of Motown on Rock and Roll. Western swing is an off shoot of the big band blues bands of Texas as evidence by T bone Walker and others.

[Philostopher]

6. I don't know as I agree with you completely,

but I also think Western Swing is underrated as an influence on some of the early rock and roll artists, especially Buddy Holly. My guess is, though I don't know it for a fact, the guy who discovered them and got them into the studio -- Norm Petty -- probably was handling western swing and country-western bands, at that point. Doubtless that had some impact on the way he recorded The Crickets.

I also wouldn't discount gospel music as an influence. The 'verse-chorus' structure of Protestant hymns is reflected in the structure of early rock and roll songs, as well. And I suspect both Jerry Lee Lewis and Screamin' Jay Hawkins started out playing piano in church. I know that's where Little Richard got his start.

I don't think you really can draw a line -- not everybody considers Bill Haley the original rocker, even though he did use the word 'rock' first to describe the style. It already was in existence before he used the word. I do, however, think you're probably right that just saying blues is the immediate precursor is oversimplifying.

[TransitJohn]

9. Country

It's all about the country, baby.

[redqueen]

10. I've been thinking this too, lately

After listening to some hill country music... this stuff apparently came over from Ireland/Scotland... and it sounds a lot like the blues.

:shrug:

[TransitJohn]

13. My favorite band

sadly no longer with us. If you've got broadband, go check out www.motherhips.com and dig the California Soul.

[redqueen]

16. Thanks for the tip!

I'll check 'em out... :)

[bobthedrummer]

11. Have to disagree, since the blues is the Rosetta Stone of the majority

of all American popular music-especially rock and roll.

[Mr.Green93]

14. all roads lead to Jelly Roll

[BigBigBear]

17. Jazz is downstream of blues

which is, itself, downstream of gospel and spirituals.

Don't forget Appalachian influence, drawn directly from British Isles traditional folk - ballads and jigs, etc.

Rock's blues lineage is preceded by Chicago/urban blues, which was Delta blues amplified to be heard in noisier Chicago clubs.

[regularguy]

18. I'm inclined to disagree. Let's name names.

Does rock owe more to Muddy Waters or Cannonball Adderly? More to Miles Davis or Howlin' Wolf? Has Charlie Parker had a bigger influence on rock than John Lee Hooker?

[patcox2]

23. I would say that rock branched off before those jazz artists.

Rock descended from an earlier version of jazz which was already on a different track than that taken by Parker and Miles. kinda like in evolution, we didn't descend from chimpanzees, we broke off from the line that eventually led to chimpanzees.

Don't laugh, but rock has more of Al Jolson in it than Miles Davis.

[Bridget Burke]

20. The roots of American music go very deep.

Into the African-American tradition that existed before "blues" or jazz were separate genres. Into the traditions of the British Isles--Scottish/Irish fiddle tunes & English ballads that had died out in the old country. Add in the various church traditions & 19th century "parlor" music. And the roots have been intertwining from the very beginning.

You obviously need some more education. And the old recordings are not WPA, they're Library of Congress.

[patcox2]

21. Well, I guess I didn't think this all the way through.

Thanks for the education, I am pretty ignorant of the evolution of big band swing, so I did not know that it is itself an offshoot of "blues" music. Interesting.

But to reformulate, I think that the typical rock and roll song, outside the obviously blues-oriented bands like zeppelin, zz-top, and even the stones, has more of the attributes of big band swing through western swing, than of blues, by which, as you might be able to tell, I mean roots, delta 12 bar blues (I am not expert in the varieties of blues, I admmit).

Or, to tone that down even more, the influence of Blues is overstated and the influence of swing is understated in most discussions.

My mom and dad grew up in the big band swing era, and they hated rock and roll. But when I put on The Doors, Love Her Madly or Touch Me, or Iggy Pop, lust for life, songs like that, they would start doing their old swing dance steps.

And Sing Sing Sing is so obviously a rock and roll song, 15 years earlier than any other contender. Different instruments, but the sound is all there. A surf music band from california has done a surf guitar version of Sing Sing Sing and its awesome.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. Not to mention..there are no mistakes in rock and roll and blues

but there ARE mistakes in jazz :evilgrin: