Hollywood Keeps Eliminating the GAY Parts From Movies, WHY?!?!

[Placebo]

They did it with "Troy", blatantly ignoring the fact that Achilles, in the actual story, was in love with and had a serious relationship with his friend & lover Patroclus. He even asked that when he died, his ashes be mixed with the ashes of Patroclus.

Now with "Alexander", I am sure they will also gloss over the fact that Alexander the Great was a huge big massive well-known HOMOSEXUAL.

:grr:

[skypilot]

1. These epic battle flicks...

...are, I'm sure, being made in order to nuture and cultivate America's post-9/11 militaristic mindset. Homosexuality is incompatible with this endeavor.

[sans qualia]

57. Love period is incompatible with this endeavor

Although traditional, godly, man-exploiting-woman heterosexual relationships are acceptable, so long as they don't take too much time away from the mass slaughter.

[Not Me]

2. Icky-factor

Yeah, it bugs the hell out of me.
Everytime an intimate scene come on tv or in a movie, I mention to my partner "Now if that were two men (or two women)"
He's getting tired of hearing it.

[Liberal Veteran]

3. Fortunately they are both flops....

...mostly because they take wayyyyyyy too much creative license with the facts to try to make a blockbuster.

I had the same thoughts about both. It's just silly to make a "historic" movie and leave out inconvenient facts to avoid offending your audience (or because your lead actor is afraid of being typecast, whichever the reason was).

[Placebo]

5. Yea it really is.

Why make a 'historic' movie if you're going to leave out huge parts of it?

It might even help gay people to gain more respect in the world if they were seen portrayed on screen as the great heroes that they were.

[SoCalDem]

64. and in OTHER news.. Lynne Cheney re-wrote Washington Crossing the Delaware

to tell the TRUE story.. Was she THERE?>?? Why would any of the gazillion REAL historians have been telling us lies about it all these years??

I will NOT read the book, but if anyone else does, let us in of "...the rest of the story..."..

Oh yeah..it's a KIDS' book :puke:.. I guess she's totally over her Western Lesbian Romance phase:)

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Maybe it's time for a dedicated channel for gays? Just like PAX

is for Christians?

[Boomer]

6. I thought we already had one

Is'nt BRAVO the queer channel? ;-)

[papau]

7. "Alexander" and Homosexual - concept not the same as current

society.

Back then one loved the perfect - and only men could be perfect.

So one married and had a dozen kids,

while at the same time hanging with the other males in the community telling each other how beautiful and perfect they are! LOL :-)

Granted gay sex was not unusual - but I do not recall Al the Great was into gay sex, the way at least that it is implied that Achilles and Patroclus were. Indeed In Greek there are 30 words that can replace our word "love" - "almost" all of which do not allow gay sex as an interpretation.

So to say that so and so loved someone is not to say they were having gay sex.

But gay sex was also not a big deal in Al's Greek society.

Indeed in Italy, gay sex was termed the "French" problem a 1000 years later - so I would guess that there is little to suggest Greek Army = gay sex.

But note that the Ottoman's used a village annual "child tax" - take one blue eyed Greek baby, and force homosexual sex on the kid - the idea being that more often than not the kid would not be wired that way and this action would produced crazed young men who did not care if they died - or if they killed - the so called Janissaries that the Turks used as front line troops (indeed the group was a powerful political group in Ottoman Turkey - you just had to remain sane!) The hatred for the Turk and his child tax is just now - 200 years after Greek liberation - coming down to something less than white hot.

[Elidor]

12. And all this time I thought Big Gay Al was a South Park character!

[Zynx]

15. The History Channel had something on this

Alexander's family was worried when he was growing up that he was turning into what we would now consider a fem homosexual. Add that to the fact that he had a lifelong very close male companion and the fact that there was hardly a tabboo on it in Greece where a man's first sexual experience was probably with another man and there is a lot more evidence that Alexander enjoyed men as well as women than there is against it.

[papau]

24. All true - but no facts - and a really large number of Al babies!

I doubt I could have passed the Sparta "real man" test - and I am not gay - and many in Sparta were gay!

But just for the record - the "a man's first sexual experience was probably with another man" is not true - or at least has no facts/writings of period that so state.

God forbid that any male seem "fem" in any way - as only males were perfect!

And "evidence that Alexander enjoyed men as well as women" also runs up against the Greek 30 words for love and no direct statement about old Al taking a guy to bed!

In any case, you are correct that there really was no tabboo - and that fact should be shown in the movie!

[SoCalDem]

66. If you saw this in the last 8 years..I would take it with a grain of salt

The history channel, A&E, TLC, Discovery.. all of these have been "absorbed" by the corporate media moguls.. Notice the uptick in all the religious "history" shows...and the rewriting of WW11...and the inordinate attention paid to politics...(that usually have a rightward slant)...

[Terran]

36. Well, try reading "The Persian Boy"

by Mary Renault. I don't know how good her research is, but Renault was well known for her historical fiction about the ancient world. And she depicts Alexander in that novel as a mature man who is certainly in love with and dedicated to another mature man, whether sex was involved or not. It was not your stereotypical man-boy Greek relationship. His sole marriage was for politcal purposes only. I think the OP's point is that even this sort of relationship is not going to make it into a biographical film done these days by mainstream Hollywood.

[Nag Champa]

8. I believe it is because most people are bigoted against gays.

I dont understand why it is so socially acceptable to be bigoted against gays, but I think most are. I hear people all the time using the word gay as a synonym for something they dont like. For example, "Oh, thats so gay."

I'm not gay. I don't have any gay friends. Im not an activist of any kind... so I dont believe I am hypersensitive to this issue. But I am really bothered by the way we treat gay people and I see it everywhere.

Oh yeah, I live in southern california where we have many gay communities and I believe we are more tolerant than many other places in the US... and even here I hear anti-gay talk fairly regularly.

I just dont see why anyone gives a shit. Does it make them feel better about themselves to demonize someone?

Sorry for the ramble... this is a hot button for me.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

9. Not disagreeing with you here

but wasn't Alexander the Great bi?

And wasn't his behavior not a big deal in that day and age?

But yeah, I hear ya.

[joeybee12]

42. No, he was a big queen--it's some historians who can't deal with the

fact that he was gay make him out to be bi because he eventually got married. But it was a marriage of convenience--he needed to form an alliance. He was gay, gay, gay! He died out of grief only a few weeks after his second-in-command (whose name escapes me) died--he was the great love of Alex's life!

[Deja Q]

10. It's always been that way. Greek culture was gay-friendly... even on

their pottery and artwork you'd find depictions of men doing 'naughty' things.

Naughty in the eyes of the fundies...

Makes you wonder how much of the Greek relics were destroyed, or turned so that the good bits could not be seen in museums?

[Atlas Mugged]

31. There's plenty on display in the museums of Berlin

In fact, I was totally startled by how blatantly pornographic the pottery was. I can't remember which museum it was, there's so many in Berlin, but this particular one specializes in Greek pottery and male/male sex was an overwhelming theme. I spent HOURS in there!

[DrWeird]

11. Yeah, Alexander the Great, Achilles...

Patch Adams...

[JohnKleeb]

13. I thought Alexander the Great was bi

:shrug:
Maybe I should stick with modern history.

[Robeson]

29. Yes, he was...

...He had three wives, and 2 children from them. They were both killed before adulthood.

[joeybee12]

43. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! The great love of hsi life was a man! Those marriages

were marriages of convenience to form alliances. Just because he fostered some brats doesn't make him bi--it made him a smart leader who knew what had to be done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robeson]

46. I wasn't responding to who the great love of his life was..

...and, yes, it is believed he was homoerotic, but, yes, he was also bi. In fact, not only did he have 3 wives, but according to Plutarch, he may have had 2 mistresses named Barsine and Pankaste/Kampaspe. The idea of homosexuality in the Classical world was quite different than the modern concept. He probably didn't view himself as exclusive to any preference, as is thought of by many in modern societies. Going to bed with men on campaigns, when access to women was probably limited, would have not crossed his mind as something he "preferred", anymore than him wanting to have relationships with women, if thats what struck his fancy.

[Chovexani]

40. He was bi

And as a bi person it really irks me when people claim historical figures were gay when they were really bisexual. It's one more way it makes us invisible (like we needed any more).

[skygazer]

14. Well, it's hard to be sure of the "truth" in history

Context changes as do cultural norms so it's tough to tell if something that appears to be a sexual relationship to moderns really was back then.

I read a couple of years ago an article that postulated that Lincoln was gay and had a long term sexual relationship with his law partner. It was predicated on the fact that they shared a bed in their lodgings before their marriages.

Except back then, sharing a bed was common. As a matter of fact, people often shared beds with complete strangers in hotels or boarding houses. So the context was completely different.

Besides, the movies you're talking about are not "history" - if you want to learn history, you're not going to learn it from Hollywood.

[pagerbear]

16. You know what's even worse?

Looking to Hollywood for education.

Hollywood has long taken liberties with the truth, even when creating films and TV shows that were supposed to be factual. Hollywood is about business, not truth or art.

[JohnKleeb]

17. see thats why I watch documentaries and read like mad

Of course it makes me a nerd but :shrug:.

[pagerbear]

20. Nerds are cool!

[JohnKleeb]

26. a tired nerd isnt though

I am so tired.

[Jack Schitt]

18. Yeah! Did you see...

the ninjas in that tank in that one Revolutionary War movie? That was sweet!

</sarcasm>

[JohnKleeb]

19. better yet the Chinese soldiers in humvees in the battle of hastings

:)
didcha see it!

[Jack Schitt]

22. Yeah! That was a sweet depiction of actual history!

:)

[JohnKleeb]

25. especially the battle of waterloo where William Wallace

invades the sea wall with a higgins boat.

[sundog]

21. Hollywood is clueless when it comes to minorities...

I mean, the quintessential African-American is supposed to be Halle Berry. :eyes:

Stick with independent, foreign & smaller-scale films... less frustration involved when watching them.

[Beware the Beast Man]

23. All I can think of is Nathan Lane's line in the "Birdcage"

Regarding gays in the military! :D

[UdoKier]

27. Demi and Whoopi in "Ghost", Fired Green Tomatoes...

Sadly, that's capitalism. They want to reach the widest audiences possible, and movies with gay themes tend to get a more limited audience.

It probably hurts even more in the rental market when guys would feel embarrassed to take out a "gay" movie.

I have to admit it has happened to me. I was curious about whatever movie, but didn't get it because I didn't want the clerk to make assumptions about me based on the video.

I know. it's stupid....

[NV Whino]

28. On the other hand

I've been encouraged by more and more gays popping up in mainstream "literature." I'm an eclectic reader and I see gay characters in every type of genre.

[cedahlia]

30. Brokeback Mountain

Have you heard about this upcoming movie? It stars Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger as cowboys who fall in love with each other. Now, from what I've heard, they didn't want to "turn people off" :eyes: or whatever, so there will be no love scenes at all between the two of them. So, they're gay, and in love, but no kissing, making out, nothing (dammit!) How unrealistic is that? I mean, why even make the film at all? What are they afraid of anyway...that they'd be called too liberal? (gasp!) Hollywood has no problem injecting violent rape scenes and other such gratuitous sick shit, but two guys showing love for each other is somehow really bad...WTF???

Anyway, when I read that about the movie, I thought, a hot love scene between Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger would be just that...HOT!!! I'd personally love to see that...am I weird or something? I mean, come on, I can't be the only one who'd like to see that...could I? :evilgrin:

***Edit: When I say "they" I don't mean Jake and Heath...I think it was the movie studio execs who didn't want the love scenes.

[Mike Daniels]

47. Why does that remind me of the "Sundance" spoof on South Park?

Mr. Garrison assigns the class to see an "indie" film and someone describes an "indie" film as being about "two gay cowboys eating pudding".

Needless to say at one point during the episode one of the movies is called "Two Gay Cowboys Eating Pudding".

[nickgutierrez]

32. Because the GODLESS COMMIE QUEERS in Hollywood...

hate gay people. :crazy:

jk

I think that the people who decide what goes into a movie (along with what stays out of the movie) would say that there's only so much they can put in a two-hour film. I think the real reason is that they don't believe that's the part of Alexander's (or Achilles's, or whomever's) life that people are interested in.

[Dukakis88]

33. Anybody see the network TV version of "The Crying Game?"

In the TV version, through severe editing/altered dialogue, the Jaye Davidson character turns out to really be a woman. The point of the movie becomes rather confusing. Stephen Rea's character says that he vomited because he had too much to drink, etc.

[Enraged_Ape]

48. You've got to be kidding me.

And I thought the "Greedo shoots first" re-editing of the first Star Wars was bad.

[Dukakis88]

51. Yup...

...I was kidding ya. Don't want to mislead you 'bout that!

[Enraged_Ape]

56. Well, I've heard that the "Sound of Music" was once edited...

by a theater chain who thought it was too long by cutting out all the songs. True story.

So your "Crying Game" story doesn't seem that farfetched.

[AngryAmish]

34. Stupid sub-human American homophobes

How will gay play in Kansas? Since it is a red state, not too well. Those fat Wal-Mart waddlers will not allow gays to be part of our life or culture.

[Dukakis88]

37. Obesity has nothing to do with homophobia.

You condemn fat people using stereotyped, hateful language because you hold them responsible for homophobia, which is essentially similar to fatphobia -- stereotype hatred. How much more judgemental and "judging a book by its cover" can you get than labeling fat people as ignorant bigots?

You are of course free to say what you want. I just thought this was a rather pointed irony.

[VaYallaDawg]

50. Isn't that a little rough thinking/talk about a lot of groups of folks?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

35. I was listening to Diane Rehm earlier, and Ben Gazzara

was talking about how he'd been originally cast to play Paul Newman's part in "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof". He and George Cukor, the original director, left the production after learning that all references to homosexuality and "obscene" words were deleted, watered down, or obscured from original play, due to the strict censorship Production Codes in the late 1950s.

And so, here we are again:

[jackelope72]

38. Didn't you get that memo?

Gays are either fictional characters, or else they have only been around for the past 50 years or so. And portraying them in movies is gross, unless they:

a. Die an untimely (and preferrably violent, painful) death

b. Are very sick

c. Make you laugh by dressing like women or prancing around and speaking in high voices

d. Don't have love interests or anything approaching a real sex drive

e. Get beaten up and mutilated

f. Are miserable and unhappy with their life and sexual orientation

Under no circumstances are they to be heroic or strong, or (God forbid) the central character of the film.

[Placebo]

44. Clearly I missed it.

No more bathroom breaks for me! :spank:

[wickerwoman]

71. g. Providing bitchy fashion advice to single women.

:-)

[Chovexani]

39. The gay stuff in Alexander was cut out.

I could understand why they did it with Troy because the Achilles/Patroclus thing is really only so much theory (I agree with the theory but I think it's a stretch to call it historical fact).

Anyway from what I understand there were gay scenes in Alexander that were taken out but I think in the case of both movies it has more to do with society's blatant double standard when it comes to depicting homosexual relationships. Hollywood seems to think that people just love watching two women make out but are repulsed by two men making out. Unfortunately they are pretty much right, except this point of view completely ignores gay men themselves (as usual) and the growing slash subculture and the yaoi/shounen-ai subculture of anime fandom. I am in both fandoms so I know what I'm talking about...let's just say there's a substantial minority of people who not only have no problem with two guys making out but will pay good money to see it or read about it.

Personally I think it's just a money thing, they cut it out of the movie so they could just release a more expensive "Director's Cut" DVD down the line, and of course in the commentary they will complain about how the studio made them cut it out and pat themselves on the back about how brave they were to include the "true vision" on the DVD. :puke:

And people like me will buy it anyway just to see Jared Leto and Colin Farrell make out. Stupid Hollywood! :cry:

[NewJeffCT]

49. not just cut out

But, I think there were a few stories that the gay sex was cut out to generate some publicity for the eventual release of said director's cut.

and, you are correct - the general target audience of the movie - young males - will not want to see two men making out on screen.

Heck, even 2 women making out on screen still generates publicity. Look at the Madonna-Britney Spears kiss, or the one from Ally McBeal a few years back with Ally & Lucy Liu? (Now, that was hot!) :9

[Dukakis88]

41. Another film with gay part cut out: "Gigli" with Jennifer Lopez as lesbian

I thought it was interesting that they didn't include the deleted footage which emphasized Jennifer Lopez's lesbianism on the DVD. They are so worried about offending with this that they won't even include deleted footage of it in the extras?

[Zynx]

60. Weird - not like Gigli could get more offensive

[CBGLuthier]

45. A Beautiful Mind

There was a stink when it came out that John Nash's bisexuality was left out. On the other hand, maybe it was just as well since some would have said it was another manifestation of his mental illness.


One film that did include homosexuality was Deathtrap. But then again, the two guys were killers so it isn't exactly one for the cause.

[tjdee]

54. It also left out his deadbeat dadness.

A Beautiful Mind painted just the white breadingest picture EVER of John Nash.

The real guy wasn't nearly as charming as Russ Crowe.

[Mr. Blonde]

52. I believe

that he does have a relationship with an eunuch in the movie, but they leave out his relationship with Hephastion. Generally speaking it doesn't seem as if Oliver Stone is too scared of controversy.

[Kellanved]

53. call it "modernization"

In a classicist way.

In this regard old Greece and Rome were far more open than today's "western world". So along with look, language and basically everything else, the sexual details get "modernized" as well.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

62. King James ruined it all with his paranoid interpretation of the bible.

Kinda funny coming from a homosexual.
Duckie

[jpgray]

63. A homosexual obsessed with witchcraft

He sounds like some DUers I know fercryinoutloud!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

65. LMAO...

King James was so freaking inbred his brain was torn up and about to leak out of his ears. Poor idiot
Duckie

[slackmaster]

55. If they censor the gay parts of Caligula I'll scream

:nuke:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

58. You do realize that Alexander is an Oliver Stone movie, right?

He's not exactly known for his historical accuracy.
Duckie

[Plaid Adder]

59. I don't get the "Troy" thing.

Don't they think the world is ready for a hot bisexual Achilles? I do! Maybe Brad Pitt made them do it.

Ah well,

The Plaid Adder

[Mick Knox]

61. Three words: $,$,$ n/t

[Kablooie]

67. Well, I work in Hollywood and ...

I eliminate gay parts from my movies because I'm damned depressed and I want everyone else to be too.

No gaiety here.

[wickerwoman]

68. See also "Captain Corelli's Mandolin"

Where changing a gay character to a straight one completely disrupts the plot. There's no real explanation for why the big Italian guy dies to save Nicolas Cage. In fact, you don't learn the first thing about him.

[Nikia]

69. Total Eclipse is a gay movie

It is about the relationship of French poets Paul Verlain and Arthur Rimbaud. I rented it on video. I don't know how many people saw it but Leonardo DiCaprio played Arthur Rimbaud.

[Dukakis88]

72. So is Total Recall.

It's all about the Gropenator's repressed sexuality threatening to drive him insane when he seeks pleasure on Mars (the traditional symbol of masculinity).

[JSJ]

70. yeah, but in those period movies the guys skirts are always...

...shorter than the women's.

[MsAnthropy]

73. Because they have a 51% "mandate"