Rate Howard Dean as the 2008 nominee

[The Sushi Bandit]

On a scale of 0 to 9 (being the best)

This is not about others... just him

[BamaLefty]

1. NO!!!!

ABD!

We want to win don't we?

[whirlygigspin]

2. yes, we need to win

let's try Kerry

or maybe Leiberman

:nopity:

[GainesT1958]

3. Nominate him...

And just watch that map turn a giant splotch of red not seen since Ronald Reagan's 1984 landslide.:puke:

Although...he was right about the party appealing to the concerns of the guy in Georgia with the Confederate flag tag on the front of his pickup!

Land use issues...fishing rights and hunting rights vs. "development rights"...growing tobacco that's engineered to produce extract that can be refined into cancer-treating drugs...re-training textile workers for better-paying jobs...all of these are things which, in a really bad economy, can make a difference in the South, and elsewhere in several of the heretofore "red" states. Clinton won a handful of them each time he ran, and it helped to make a difference in putting him in--and back in--the White House.

Write off the South--or any one region, at that--and we'll keep seeing maps like the one we saw a couple of weeks ago for a long time. No one here wants that--least of all those of us who live in "red states"!

B-)

[whirlygigspin]

4. I agree totally

we need moderates like Kerry to keep winning all those southern states.

good strategy.

[Atlant]

5. Well it worked so well in 2004, didn't it? (NT)

[Khephra]

18. And 2000 and 2002

We're still waiting to win those states that people say Dean would lose.

Oh yeah, let me add this: getting a Southerner on the ticket was supposed to be the sure-fire way of winning the South too. I thank God every day for all those Southern states that Edwards brought us! (sarcasm off)

It's time for unconventional thinking because conventional thinking keeps on getting us lost elections.

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. I'll put it bluntly. It's either him, someone like him with no DLC

connections, or the Democratic Party loses me. I still hate myself for buying in to the fraud of this year's campaign. :(

[Nestea]

15. That's an insult to all the Kerry campaigners

While you might have supported Kerry after your guy lost in the primary, you still did not do as much as we did to help get him elected and your insults are a slap in the face to my friends and I, who each put in about 30 hours of volunteer work for the Kerry campaign from August until November. I spent almost 6 hours a night calling people in Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, and New Mexico, telling them to support Kerry and to get out and vote.

If you're going to be like this then I think the Democratic Party can afford to lose you. You were never a Kerry person anyway.

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. Sorry, I walked every day from August until November as well. I called

nights. I worked for both Michigan Coordinated Campaign and MoveOn. I went and got lawn signs to bring to those who asked for them. I wrote letters. I sat at the poll for 6 hours on election day for MoveOn. I guess I'm allowed to "slap you in the face" as one of your own campaigners. I'll say it again...Kerry and the DLCers are frauds. "Till every vote's counted" my ass. You may not like it...so you can just lump it. I'm not the only one. Many of the ones who were willing to give their all, did so against their better judgements. Most of the staffers at our local Dem Coordinated Campaign office were originally the supporters of someone else...mostly Dean. Ask some more of us who gave our all and were screwed with. Again, Sorry, but them's the facts. The Dem Party better get real. :hi:

I'm sorry I was ever a Kerry Person.

[Nestea]

20. Exactly, you weren't a Kerry supporter from the beginning

You just jumped on the bandwagon after your guy had lost in the primaries. I was a Kerry supporter from 2002 on and helped campaign for him in the TX presidential primary.

And Dean was formerly DLC. Kerry is DLC, that's true, but he's also probably the most left member of the group.

I guess it's so Democratic to cut people off of health care in VT to appeal to businesses, and to call people on welfare lazy, like Dean did. I guess it's also nice to rip on the Iowa caucus.

PRO-gressive my butt. The guy was a glorified DINO. Just a spoiled New York brat who never had a clue.

And every vote did count. These conspiracy theories are really getting old.

"Moral values" reigned on 11/2, and Iraq and the economy lost.

I also see you have an anger management problem. I read your original post. That seems to be a common problem on here. I could suggest something for it but I won't.

[Debi]

24. So, do you spend all your time buying into Kerry-lead stereotypes

w/out checking facts or just on the lies the K-campaign spread about Howard Dean?

The only person to blame for Kerry's loss is Kerry....we all worked hard before or after our candidate was involved in the primaries.

Would you have preferred those that supported the other nine candidates bail after Kerry became the nominee? (Including those who supported John Edwards?)

I can't speak for others here...but I wish Kerry would have had more fire and less 'senate-speak'. I wanted a candidate who would stand up for this party. Not give up on it.

[Nestea]

29. Nah, I wouldn't want them to bail

I'd just want them to show some deference for Kerry.

We heard shit from the Deaniacs about how Kerry won because the media carried him on their back.

We heard that Kerry won because he ran a dirty campaign.

No. Kerry won because he had a message. He told us he was more electable. And he was more electable. More electable than Dean.

That's why this was the easiest nominating contest ever for a non-incumbent Democrat. The whole thing was over after February.

Dean would have lost too, you know.

You can't think of one state that Dean could have carried that Kerry lost. I could think of some that Dean could have lost. WI, for example.

The funny thing about it was that Kerry was a liberal perceived as somewhat of a centrist. And Dean was a centrist(center-right, tax cutting, business suck-up as well) while he was perceived as a liberal.

Which would you rather have had?

Sure they used flip flopping against Kerry.

But Dean would have given them plenty of material too.

He stuck his foot in his mouth more than any other candidate in modern political history. The guy is tactless and I am so glad he lost in the primaries.

[Debi]

32. Question...

What was Kerry's fucking message? And would someone explain the word 'electable' to me now that the 'most electable' candidate LOST.

And, being from the state that voted FOR Kerry before we voted AGAINST Kerry, I will tell you he ran a DAMN DIRTY campaign.

One of his county HQ were right down the hall from us and I spent the majority of my days straigtening out the screwy lies his staff told about Governor Dean. But I'm glad to hear Kerry made it to the floor of the Senate the other day to tell us what he believes in.

Nice to fucking know in THE MIDDLE OF NOVEMBER!!!

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Debi]

36. Yes, please do

right after you get done blaming everyone here but yourself and Senator Kerry for his loss to George W. Bush...three and a half million vote loss...and I'm the one crying?

[Nestea]

37. If you think his loss margin was as significant as you think it is,

then you have some learning to do, political newbie.

[Debi]

38. Oh, you are so right

living in Iowa where we know nothin 'bout politics...Kerry is the first Dem to lose Iowa since Walter Mondale...I should just bow out and let you be right...Kerry '08 it is Four more years of Republican control!

[Nestea]

39. Iowa has been trending Republican

Except for having a Dem governor. Republicans control all but 1 of the house seats, and they control both the state house and the state senate. Gore barely won there as well. Same with New Mexico. They were two close states that could have flipped either way.

[NashVegas]

50. "Deference to Kerry" - What a Hoot

Because you have a low post count, I'll give you a brief summation of what went down on DU in 2003/early 2004.

A group of people who expressed admiration for a particular candidate (Dean) were harrassed from the right and left by a group of people who then turned around and arrogantly demanded their targets turn around and swear some bizarre John F. Kerry fealty oath.

In a nutshell:

poster a: I really like what this Dean guy is doing
poster b: Dean is the devil incarnate who doesn't stand a chance in hell against Bush. Kerry WILL WIN!
poster a: fuck off.
poster b: when John Kerry is nominated, you WILL support him, right? Promise me you WILL support Kerry!

The election cycle is over. We would have liked having a Dem president, but it didn't happen. However, we owe John Kerry's candidacy nothing. He did nothing to advance a dialog, a very needed dialog, in this polarized nation. Dean's backers had faith that even with a loss, his candidacy would have at least given Americans something to think about and talk about in the coming years.

[ScreamingMeemie]

28. I'm sorry you wasted your time on a fraud. Sorry you continued to buy

into the lie. But, ah well...such is life. DFA is still going strong, I won't turn my energy away from it again. My only anger is directed at Mr Kerry, the fraud. :hi:


And it's a good thing we walked for your beloved Kerry. No one else was. We couldn't find one "from the start" Kerry supporter in our group...strange, eh?

[Nestea]

30. A fraud

How disgusting.

Kerry has done more to help people than you could ever dream of doing.

Half of Dean's supporters weren't doing shit until he came along. They weren't in love with his message. They were in love with the man.

I guess 50 million Americans are stupid.

[Debi]

33. Goodness

Did you just admit that Howard Dean got people involved in the political process that weren't involved previously?

Wow, that makes him pretty impressive.

Tell me...how did Kerry do with newly registered voters?

[ScreamingMeemie]

46. Sorry. I think I do pretty well helping people. I also don't assume

I know someone and can make statements such as yours about them, without truly knowing them. I'm pretty secure in myself that way. :hi: 50 million Americans didn't want Bush basically. Don't kid yourself. Where is the man who said every vote was going to count anyway? You seem to know him well. ;)

[quaker bill]

44. Moral values are a convenient fallacy

It serves the reich wing to further their objectives and gives DLC types an all too convenient excuse.

In polling where people were asked why they voted without suggested catagories "Moral Values" got 5 to 6 percent. Iraq, the "war on terror" and the economy dominated the polling. Bush only lost on the economy as an issue.

On the biggest issue of the last two years, Iraq and the "war on terror" we lost. Why. Because we selected a candidate that voted for IWR and "saw the same intelligence".

[DemOperative]

47. Funny , that

When you look at the exit polls where the "moral values" meme comes from , the issues "Iraq War" "Economy" and "Terrorism -erosion of rights" rate right up there along side with comparable numbers.

Yet some are seizing on moral values ---because why, again?

Hmmmmmmm

[DemOperative]

45. it's not YOUR fault. THE PARTY LET YOU DOWN

You did your best. What didn't happen, as all the Dean people warned, was any kind of campaign that generated a winning message.
Don't be insulted by the harsh realities of party weaknesses.

Maybe next time they will run someone who they will let be themselves without interference. Even DUers needed to be constantly , and I mean constantly thank you Will Pitt, reminded what Kerry stood for. And we are the sophisticates in the game.

Most of the country thinks the media isn't biased.

[arwalden]

7. I Admire Him... But He's Not The One Either.

It's not gonna happen. (Unless the Republican votes get siphoned off by some conservative third party candidate.)

[hippiechick]

8. The GOP is already starting to implode ...

and we've got 2 1/2 years before we need to start thinking about primaries ... so, I'd say your vote siphoning idea just might actually happen !!


:hi:


:hippie:

[taps]

9. I think for any Democrat to win he's

Going to have to be from the South.

[Larkspur]

12. OK, how about Gore/Dean in '08?

[Debi]

25. Like John Edwards?

Or Wes Clark?

[The Sushi Bandit]

10. Morning Kick

[Larkspur]

11. It's Dean or someon like him that we need

else that giant splotch of red we saw in 2004 will take over the whole country.

Dean fought the Religious Reich Repukes in VT. He knows that you have to fight back aggressively to win. By fighting back they are put on the defensive and make mistakes.

The Lieberman, aka DLC, way of becoming a welcome mat for fascism will just turn this country bright red.

[Demobrat]

13. The last thing we need is a candidate with courage.

Let's just stick with the political cowards, shall we?

[denverbill]

14. No, god forbid we have a plain-talking, common-sense person like him.

What we need is an inside-the-beltway politician who can appear to be all things to all people.

Better yet, let's get someone who's Evangelical Christian, wants to post the 10 Commandments in every classroom, is vehemently anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-government social welfare programs, anti-gay, and supports a flat-tax or national sales tax.

And make sure he's a war hero, 'Israel, right or wrong', and strongly supports the now 5 year old war in Iraq.

It's our only hope of beating those fucking Republicans.

[molly]

17. Will he have un-sealed his papers by then?

[Khephra]

19. Will Kerry have had every vote counted by then?

[jpgray]

21. I still think he's a good candidate

He really needs to work on combating media scripts, however. He did a lousy job in the primaries fighting that problem. They were able to define him as an angry crazy liberal though he was none of these things.

[FreedomFry]

22. Democrats need a plain speaker...

Dean's got a huge handicap, which is that he's from New England. The country won't elect a candidate from Massachusetts for a long, long time (sorry, MA DUers). And they won't elect a Senator any time soon, either. But a plain-speaking, committed, articulate, principled former governor like Dean could be just the person to get the country back on track. He galvanized the youth vote in a way we haven't seen in decades. Kerry could/should have taken a lesson.

Remember, Dean cut through the media clutter first with his, "I represent the democratic wing of the Democratic Party" statement. Personally, I think the media also killed his candidacy -- that "Yeehah!" moment was blown so out of proportion, it begs for dozens of tinfoil-hat theories.

Can you just imagine how kick-ass a Dean/Obama ticket would be?

[ieoeja]

23. A plain speaking, pro gun, budget balancing Governor?

That would never work.

[Debi]

27. But is he ELECTABLE?

F'n Kerry campaign in the primaries...getting me all pissed off again

[420inTN]

26. Waayyyyyy to early to tell.

however, right now, i'll give him a '5'.

A lot will happen between now and '08. Heck, it's possible that a dead horse could run against Frist, Guiliani, or whomever the republicans run, and win.

Edit: Of course, unless the BBV gets fixed, will it matter?

[IronLionZion]

31. YEARGH!!!

anyone who strikes fear in the hearts of Republicans is fine by me. Rove was a nervous wreck when Dean was frontrunner. He wanted to go against a rich establishment blue-blood who "voted for the 87 billion before he voted against it" and "raises your taxes before breakfast every morning". and who had some serious enemies from his anti-war days.

[no name no slogan]

35. Dean's alright, but I'm still holding out for Kucinich (n/t)

[eridani]

48. My second choice after Kucinich as well. n/t

[chocolateeater]

40. Dean for me.

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Nightowl_2004]

41. I'm not so sure he could cut it

I love the guy but you got to remember not everybody in America is a left wing progressive. There are moderates and, unfortunately, conservatives. It sickens me too say so but we need to go more towards the center to appeal to all those people in the middle of the road. I think Edwards is the absolute best pick in order to secure a victory (Just my humble opinion, don't flame me.) Dean might make a good running mate, I have not considered any other running mate options, but he seems like a good choice.

[Zomby Woof]

42. Dean: The moderate squishy-centrist dullard

Embraced by those self-styled far-leftists. A puzzle to the end why so many so-called liberals supported him. They ignored his record at the expense of the fucking war. And even then... Biden-Lugar...etc...

Dean doesn't bother me so much as his obnoxious cult following, harkening him as a savior and who knows what the fuck else.

Hey, if you're going to drag politics into the Lounge, I will leave a big turd in your punch bowl.

The Lounge is the last place I expected people to be Flogging The Dean Corpse...

[jus_the_facts]

43. HEAR YE.....HEAR YE.......

....SIGHS....preach on m'brotha...I soooo agree!!!! :evilgrin:

[Atlant]

49. Well, part of the answer is we believe he can win.

> A puzzle to the end why so many so-called liberals supported him.

Well, part of the answer is we believe he can win (unlike the guy
you supported.)

Atlant

[no name no slogan]

51. Well, that's also what we said about Kerry...

...and THAT was his big selling point this year: he's "electable".

Lest we forget, Kucinich has won as many elections as Dean has. In fact, while Dean's re-elect numbers in Vermont were consistently getting smaller, Kucinich's re-elect margin continually increased.

I would be happy with either one as our nominee. However, I'd be very disappointed if we chose a candidate based on his/her "electability". We've played (and lost) with strategy far too long to keep going back to it.