I have a question about car searches...

[Willy Lee]

About once a week when driving home from work (Illinois) I see big signs on the freeway, "Drug Checkpoint Ahead". Complete with DARE cars, lights flashing, on the side of the highway. These always seem to be in the same spot on the highway, about 1/2 mile past my exit, so I never actually SEE the drug checkpoint.

My question- don't they need probably cause to search your car?

[sniffa]

1. i never heard of that

i hope the info comes forth. i've never even seen any checkpoint, never mind one speficaLLy Looking for drugs.

[MissMillie]

2. Not if they're searching EVERY car

At least that's how I understand it.

I could be wrong.

[Willy Lee]

5. They are not stopping every car-

otherwise the traffic would be backed up all to hell, which it isn't. Still, every time I see it my heart beats a little faster. I will snap some photos next time I see one.


But I have to wonder- even if they are not searching every car, how the hell do they pick the ones to single out?

Pre-1990's model?
Rust on the body?
Not Amerikun made?

It is really freaky. BTW, this is just outside St. Louis in Illinois.

[warrens]

6. That's the logic

I believe it was found unconstitutional in NJ, but evidently here in Illinois, it's OK or it hasn't been challenged.

[comsymp]

3. State by state

Good info on the Federal position on page 2 here:

http://www.ndaa-apri.org/pdf/sobriety_checkpoints.pdf

ON EDIT: pp 9-12 give each State's checkpoint status and controlling authority.

[comsymp]

11. OK, that info was for sobriety checkpoints- for DRUG checkpoint info

see this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=drug+checkpoints

[Willy Lee]

12. Thanks for that link. eom

[miss_kitty]

4. Yes

Asshats. Or you can give them permission. I mean, what have you got to hide? Surely it wouldn't harm anything if we just take a look. Really? Well why don't you pull over there and we'll wait 4-5 hours for a warrant-our probable cause? you won't willingly allow us to search. You refuse to pull over? that's resisting. Stop, or I'll Shoot!

[Willy Lee]

9. God that is scary.

10 years ago I would have thought- "That can't happen".
I thought that about a lot of things that have since come to pass.

Of all the things I say that about now, I wonder how many will be reality within the next 4 years.

Chilling.

[Worst Username Ever]

7. They need your permission

Private land or homes requires a warrant. Cars are on public land, so it is up to the state pretty much. They DO need your "permission," but I beleive refusing to give permission can be seen as probably cause and they could detain you and get a warrant. Hm.

[skygazer]

8. Probable cause

That's when the cop tells the judge that you were acting suspiciously and evasively and he felt that you were trying to hide something. Particularly for those of us who can't afford competent lawyers, that seems to work pretty well. Oh, and if you're black or hispanic, that's probable cause right there.

There was a thread in DU once that listed all the things that are your right when stopped by a cop. Things like you don't have to stop in a dark, deserted area but can politely tell the cop you are going ahead to the well lighted convenience store.

Sure, that's true. But try to tell a cop that, especially if you're a black man. Chances are very good you will be yanked out of your car and beaten up, charged with resisting arrest.

And when you get in front of a judge, who is he/she going to believe? A fine upstanding police officer who he/she is probably familiar with from other cases or some guy who tried to evade arrest?

[Willy Lee]

10. But this is on a freeway!!!

During commute time! It just seems so far from reality.

Drug check point? WTF?????

[sniffa]

13. i think this is how

the bush admin. is pLanning on instituting their mentaL testing. at checkpoints.

[skygazer]

14. Once upon a time

My ex husband was stopped on the freeway by the state police. They called in another car with a dog to search his car, closing down one lane of the interstate highway to do so. They then strip searched him by the side of the road. Right down to the bare naked skin - drop those skivvies, mister!

Three years and a lawsuit later, they may have learned not to strip search but they still have no problem with shutting down the road and searching cars.

It's not far from reality at all. It IS reality.

edited to add - there was really nothing in the way of probable cause when they did this, by the way. Just who he was, someone the cops didn't much like. They found nothing on him or in the car.

[mattclearing]

15. No permission needed.

The Patriot Act could easily be construed to get around this. The delay of execution of a warrant provision seems to say that the mere suspicion of criminality (not terrorism or malicious intent) in a person (no distinction made for non-citizens) allows for a search.

I could be wrong, it's been a while since I read it, but I remember it gave me the heebie-jeebies.

[Willy Lee]

16. Wow the internets are amazing. Found this-

from a local weekly rag...

..."So at face value, it would appear that the "K-9 Drug Checkpoint One Mile Ahead" sign operated near Interstate 55/70's Black Lane exit is in direct violation of Indianapolis v. Edmond and is therefore baldly unconstitutional. But looks can be deceiving, and in the still-emerging field of law-enforcement-checkpoint constitutionality, deception can often be better than playing it straight.

<snip>
(This is the exact checkpoint I was referring to!!)

<snip>

Fair enough, but what about the unconstitutional sign?

"That's not really something that we talk about," demurs Delmore. "We are aware of Edmond. We handle our operations in a constitutional manner."

Delmore and his charges are indeed very aware of Edmond, which is why they're operating what's called a "ruse checkpoint." In actuality there is no K-9 drug checkpoint one mile ahead, as advertised. That would be unconstitutional, and Delmore knows it. Instead, the Collinsville Police Department stations a couple of cruisers on Black Lane, mere feet from a quaint exit ramp most often utilized as a back-door shortcut to the Fairmount Park racetrack.


http://www.riverfronttimes.com/issues/2004-06-16/news/news.html


Sneaky bastards! It IS illegal, so they stage a FAKE drug checkpoint and try to get people to exit suddenly, then they have probable cause to search them
Sneaky bastards.

[sniffa]

18. yeah i found that from the search Link

that's cLever though.
checkpoints = iLLegaL.
fake checkpoints = LegaL.

[Willy Lee]

20. I put nothing past them.

Boggles the mind to realize just what they will do in the name of "security". After all, it is a WAR (on drugs). I read yesterday that bush&co are tring to tie the war on drugs to the war on terror. I imagine they will be locking people up because they *might* someday puff. They fit the profile after all.

Gggrrrrrrr.

[Guaranteed]

28. Still not probable cause. How do they know you weren't going

that way in the first place?

[pk_du]

17. Well , well , well.....some interesting reading on this one.

Seems to me the law is "they are now allowed to stop you unless you exhibit suspicious behaviour.....like getting off the exit just before the checkpoint"!!!

http://www.ago.mo.gov/publications/frontline/2002/022002fl.pdf


This is from MO but since case went to SCOTUS (I think) it applies everywhere.

[Willy Lee]

23. Would it be bad if I stopped and asked the police about the check?

I know it is fake.

They know it is fake.

They don't know I know it is fake.

It would be kinda cool to have them tell me it's not a real checkpoint but a ruse.

Or maybe just asking for trouble.

[RUDUing2]

19. nope..they don't.

info on this
http://www.k9fleck.org/nlu06.htm

but they do kindof

http://www.aclu-em.org/newsletter/2001liberties/drugcheckpoints.htm

[sniffa]

22. searching your car is not a search

searching part of your car is not a search
searching the car is not a search
searching the defendent is not a search.

gLad i got this squared away.

[RUDUing2]

26. scary aint it?

[bearfan454]

21. About 3 years ago

My brother and his wife were driving through Illinois and saw that sign. They chunked their bag(oz) of weed and then there was nobody at the checkpoint.

[Willy Lee]

24. DOH!!!!

Bummer for them!

[bearfan454]

27. They were f*cking pissed

He wanted to go back but they didn't. It was stomper too.

[Poor Richard Lex]

25. Im a criminal defense lawyer

but I have no idea! On one hand they cannot subject you to a search without probable cause. On the other you have a lower expectation of privacy in your car than in your home or walking down the street.

While you are stopped for an otherwise valid traffic stop or arrest a police dog can be walked around your car sniffing for drugs, this is not a search, in the same way that voice, DNA, fingerprint analysis etc is not a search. Also if you are arrested they can search your car, and "inventory" the contents (for your protection of course - unless they find a bag of weed)

I dont think that stopping people at a roadblock to search their cars is constitutional.

Here is some advice I give to alot of clients - if you are asked for permission to search (your house, car, person, etc) say NO. It cannot be used against you. Cops need probable cause to search legally. If they want to search you and they can legally do so then they are not going to ASK you. They are going to search. OTOH if they want to search you and they know they dont have probable cause the ONLY way they can search you is if you CONSENT. Exercise your 4th amendment right barring unreasonable search. Just say no.

[amazona]

29. they have probable cause

Probable cause is anything a cop says it is. You can refuse to have your car searched but they can still bring the dog around to sniff it. They give the dog a signal and it "reacts" as if there are drugs even if there are no drugs present. So then they have probable cause to take your car apart anyway. I've known people it has happened to. One of these men wouldn't know a drug if it bit him on the leg but they still used it to confiscate all his cash, except for $10 "to get home." They even admitted, "Sir, we are not accusing you of being involved in drugs, but we can confiscate this cash because there is a chance that it is drug money." And, guess what, you don't get it back.

They don't have to put your car back right either if they take out door panels, etc.

I'd say don't carry cash in that area and don't get involved in helping friends move electronics, such as when changing apartments. Because the cops might also decide you're transporting stolen property.

You don't have to be charged with any crime to have your cash or property seized so it is better to avoid the whole situations as you actually have very few civil rights in a moving vehicle.

[Kali]

30. Fascinating thread here

I saved it earlier because I am more familiar with border patrol checkpoints near the US Mexican border. Sneaky fuckers ain't they? Fake checkpoints to generate probable cause. I think that applies in my case too because all the illegals just pull off out into the destert here too! And they seem to have quit stopping everybody, just standing around like county road workers now.

[AngryAmish]

31. Unless one is 100% clean never consent to anything

The cops may just make crap up (especially if you are a minority) but when they make stuff up it is easier to beat the charge.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

32. Can you tell us the exit in question... in IL a lot and I do NOT want to

toss a damn thing outta my window... :scared: