How will history remember Barry Bonds?

[Poiuyt]

There was one year where some Chinese women came and broke several world records in the sport of track & field. No one knew who they were before and they left after that one year. It is pretty much acknowledged that they were using performance enhancing drugs, but it was never proved. Nontheless, their records stand, but everyone in the sport pretty much disregards them.

Now that word has leaked that Barry Bonds admitted to using steroids will people disregard the records he has set, and will set in the next few years? Will his name be tainted slightly, but still respected by people not in the know? Or will his name be talked about with the same reverence as Ruth, DiMaggio, and Aaron?

I, for one, really resent what Bonds and the others are doing to baseball. There is a purity to baseball that is now gone. Baseball is a sport that has thrived on tradition more than any other, and now Bonds, Giambi, and others have spit on that tradition.

Rant over

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/

[Burma Jones]

1. Tainted Greatly

You cannot speak the name of Bonds in the same breath as Ruth, DiMaggio, Aaron, Mays, Williams, or, say, Tony Gwinn, Roger Clemens, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson and Cal Ripkin - although I'm sure there are those around here that despise Clemens.......

[THUNDER HANDS]

5. Tony Gwinn?

what was so special about him? He was a singles hitter.

[Maestro]

12. Tony Gwinn

was excellent. Hitting singles consistenly is very, very hard. Baseball is the only sport where if you do something only 1/3 of the time correctly you are considering great. He was an excellent contact hitter. Who cares if he didn't slam home runs. Just making contact is what counts and putting the ball where no one else is, is even more amazing considering he did that with such mastery of the bat that his life-time average approached .400 I believe. I'll check on that.

[redqueen]

16. Thanks for responding to that in a calm manner.

I wanted to go off on how everyone expects big plays NOW and ALWAYS these days. Can't just enjoy the pitching and hitting. The fans do their share of ruining too I think.

GRR!

[Maestro]

26. No problem.

I try to keep myself under control most of the time.

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. Tony Gwinn is a good player, no doubt, but

he's not one of the all-time greats.

Just like I don't think Mark McGuire is one of the all-time greats. I'd like my all-time greats to be able to do all facets of the game, unless they're pitchers.

Gwin was like Wade Boggs, a nice, solid hitter, borderline HOF material. But I have extremely high standards for who I'd put into the Hall.

[Blue_Tires]

22. Gwynn will always be one of the greats

you take a look at that body, and you know it was all natural....lol (j/k; we all love Tony)

[ArthurDent]

18. "Gwynn"

just picking nits. And I agree, he was overrated.

[Maestro]

25. I hope you are referring to Bonds. -nt

[ArthurDent]

32. Nope, to Tony-Won't-Take-A-Pitch-Gwynn

[Maestro]

34. He might be a swinger

but he sure hit a lot of what he tried to hit.

[brentspeak]

48. I wouldn't put Gwynn in the upper tier of Hall-of-Famers, either

In the bottom quantile of Hall-of-Famers, yeah, but nevertheless, a deserving Hall-of-Famer, one of the very best hitters of his generation.

[Guaranteed]

38. HUH? Bonds is being compared to Mays as possibly

the best to ever play the game.

[ArthurDent]

2. He was hated beforehand

I'm a big Bonds fan, and it is entirely credible that he took something he thought was kosher but, eh, wasn't. And he's one of the greats regardless.

He never will be given the respect he's due, and this seals the deal. He's been the whipping boy of the baseball press for most of his career, and let's face it, that's what matters. Even your list of the revered: DiMaggio, but not Williams? Aaron over Mays? Why? I'm not blaming you at all, as I think many would come up with similar lists (and things like Jeter before ARod) because of the "media darling" aspect. Bonds is on the other list to begin with.

This certainly won't help.

[mac56]

7. If anybody in the world could be expected to know what steroids look like

it would be Bonds. Grew up around baseball players and trainers.

[ArthurDent]

8. In an era where...

... they drank raw eggs to build mass and used Ben Gay for arthritis.

[mac56]

10. Yeah, right.

What, they didn't discover steroids till last year? Gimme a freakin' break.

Loyalty is commendable, friend, but your hero has feet of clay.

[ohiosmith]

3. He'll be remembered as a lying, cheating, arrogant prick.

[ArthurDent]

6. What does arrogance have to do with anything?

Read the article at http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpa2lpNnFzBF9TAzk1ODYxNzc3BHNlYwN0bQ--?slug=ap-giants-bonds-steroids&prov=ap&type=lgns and it seems credible that he had no idea what was going on. But fine, grant that he did. I still don't see why it matters that he was arrogrant.

The last paragraph of the article:
Bonds said that had so little money that he ``lives in his car half the time.'' Asked by a juror why he didn't buy ``a mansion'' for his trainer, Bonds answered: ``One, I'm black, and I'm keeping my money. And there's not too many rich black people in this world. There's more wealthy Asian people and Caucasian and white. And I ain't giving my money up.''.
That's the arrogance that we all dislike. But it has nothing to do with his on-field performance. It doesn't taint it whatsoever. It is only brought out to paint Bonds as a selfish, arrogant fool.

Compare that article to the coverage of Giambi's use: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=giambisteroids&prov=st&type=lgns

Here you have a guy who publicly denied juicing, but admitted to a grand jury to injecting himself with HGH. But no one attacks him with the fervor they do Bonds. The article is matter of fact or perhaps sophomoric in tone; nothing like the tone of the Bonds article.

Why the difference? Why is Giambi getting the "yeah, whatever, he's a lying cheater blah blah blah" treatment when he injected himself, but when Bonds uses a topical cream, he's burned at the stake? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[mac56]

9. Giambi's getting it too.

But Bonds has the record. The higher you fly, the further you fall.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. A Question On Giambi

Wouldn't what he did to grab that contract from the Yankees be equivalent to fraud in any other field?

Let's say i wanted to sell you a muscle car. You're interested in this '69 GTO. I drop a overbored engine with all kinds of extras that gives 600hp. Racing tires with titanium wheels. You test drive it. You say you'll be back tomorrow with the bank check.

While you're gone, i drop the original engine back in it. Now, you still get a good running car, vintage in every way, but with a 375hp engine in it. I put aluminum wheel with good, but not great tires on it.

I just committed a fraud. Why wouldn't Giambi souping up his body to hit a zillion home runs, then signing the Yanks contract, then stopping steroids and becoming more ordinary being the same thing. The Yankees didn't get what they thought they were paying for.

To me, this isn't the same as taking a risk that a player will continue to be as productive as in the recent past. (See BoSox and Schilling, or anybody and Randy Johnson, or the Cubs and Greg Maddux.) Those risks are the cost of doing business.

But, the Giambi the Yankees thought they were getting was the juiced up monster who was hitting the ball 450 feet with a 105 mph bat speed. He cheated, signed a huge contract, then baited and switched the Yankees by going off the juice.

It seems that this fits every legal definition of fraud.
The Professor

[mac56]

20. Definitely I agree.

Bait and switch, no doubt.

[ohiosmith]

21. Make that "arrogant insufferable prick".

[AlCzervik]

4. As a cheater and a liar

[redqueen]

11. As a cheater

Is anyone really surprised by this? I mean c'mon! Look at the guy!

Sammy, Giambi, Bonds... this isn't a shock to anyone I hope.

And yeah, they're ruining baseball. The refusal to allow unscheduled drug testing shoulda been a clue for anyone who's honestly surprised by this.

[obreaslan]

24. that's how I will.

[CO Liberal]

13. As a Worse Singer Than Gary U. S. Bonds

:-)

[mac56]

14. Well-a well-a well-a I danced till a quarter to three

With the help that night of Daddy Gee...

[Maestro]

15. I love baseball

but until the player's union allows for unfettered testing, the players will still looked upon as snobs, and the home run hitters as roided up athletes. This must change. A few are bringing down my favorite sport.

[Maestro]

17. Referring to post 12

Gwinn had a .338 lifetime. More info here: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/mlb_events_gwynn.jsp

[Blue_Tires]

23. the best he ever could've hoped for

is the title of "greatest player to never win it all"....Now he's become a modern-day Gaylord Perry (without the charm and admiration)

[Maestro]

27. Yeah, but Gaylord is still considered a great pitcher

even if he did throw the spitter. There is still, like you say, some charm, in "doctorin'" a baseball and throwing it. It is quite different than filling your body with chemicals. With or without the spitter, he would be great. I watched him pitch for the Rangers in the mid-seventies and he was funny as hell. It was towards the end of his career. He would have those batters swinging wildly at air.

[KamaAina]

29. The Ted Williams of the National League

"greatest player to never win it all" indeed...

[Shakespeare]

30. Same way Pete fucking Rose will be remembered.

As an arrogant liar who besmirched the game.

[VTdem]

31. I hope the people who vote on who gets

into the Hall of Fame do the right thing and keep him out.

Let him break all the records he wants, but dont let him in the Hall.

[Poiuyt]

33. Don't agree

I hate to see him breaking the records of baseballs greats.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

57. Yes

Start with ditching Mark McGwire's "record," and reinstate Roger Maris's 61. He was legitimate. McGwire was a doper fraud, just like Bonds and Giambi and won't it be fun finding out who else?

[Bake]

50. If they keep Pete Rose out, they damn well better keep Bonds out!

At least Pete didn't do 'roids.

On edit: Pete's hustle wasn't chemically enhanced.

Bake

[LynneSin]

61. Amen and Alleluia

If Barry Bonds has taken steroids then his HR records should have a big giant size **** next to them because Hank Aaron & Babe Ruth didn't need that crap to be brilliant.

Pete Rose,as a player, should be in the Hall of Fame. Steroid abusers should be in the Hall of Shame

[MrSlayer]

35. Cheater and disgrace.

He should be stripped of his records for cheating, plain and simple. The idea that a professional athlete has no clue what he's putting into his body is flat out ridiculous. He's a cheater and a disgrace.

[brentspeak]

36. As a guy who wasn't satisfied with just being a Hall-of-Fame shoe-in

He felt he also had to be the next Hank Aaron/Babe Ruth, and so he started to cheat. Very sad.

[Forkboy]

37. With a syringe icon next to his name

:)

[Guaranteed]

39. Man, some folks are just hateful. Bonds is no McGuire or Sosa.

The man is easily one of the best- I mean BEST- players ever, steroids or not.

Look at his six or seven Gold Gloves. 4 or 5 hundred stolen bases. Hell, he has been hitting over .310 for YEARS now, even winning a batting title or two, 4 MVPs in a row, last year had an on-base percentage OVER .500!!! and the asshole pitchers never even PITCHED to him. He had more walks than strikeouts. He hit like .330 last year.

He's no Mark McGuire. He doesn't just swing for the fences and strike out all the time. He has a BEAUTIFUL swing, and probably the best eye in baseball. He is SKILLED- he's not just a bag of muscles.

[Forkboy]

40. All true...which makes it an even bigger shame that he did this

He didn't have to :shrug:

[Guaranteed]

41. Look at these stats for the past five years

Hell, I was wrong- he hit over .360 last year.
g ab r h 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG

2000 San Francisco Giants 143 480 129 147 28 4 49 106 330 117 77 11 3 .440 .688 .306
2001 San Francisco Giants 153 476 129 156 32 2 73 137 411 177 93 13 3 .515 .863 .328
2002 San Francisco Giants 143 403 117 149 31 2 46 110 322 198 47 9 2 .582 .799 .370
2003 San Francisco Giants 130 390 111 133 22 1 45 90 292 148 58 7 0 .529 .749 .341
2004 San Francisco Giants 147 373 129 135 27 3 45 101 303 232 41 6 1 .609 .812 .362

My God, I WAY underestimated his numbers from last year. UNBELIEVABLE- OVER .600 OBP!! .812 SLG! .362 AVG, 41 SO!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, folks, taking steroids doesn't make you strike out only 41 times the whole season.

[Guaranteed]

42. To compare, look at McGwire's numbers for the last several years

of his career:

SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG

Oakland Athletics 104 317 75 87 13 0 39 90 217 88 77 1 1 .441 .685 .274
1996 Oakland Athletics 130 423 104 132 21 0 52 113 309 116 112 0 0 .467 .730 .312
1997 Oakland Athletics 105 366 48 104 24 0 34 81 230 58 98 1 0 .383 .628 .284
1997 St. Louis Cardinals 51 174 38 44 3 0 24 42 119 43 61 2 0 .411 .684 .253
1998 St. Louis Cardinals 155 509 130 152 21 0 70 147 383 162 155 1 0 .470 .752 .299
1999 St. Louis Cardinals 153 521 118 145 21 1 65 147 363 133 141 0 0 .424 .697 .278
2000 St. Louis Cardinals 89 236 60 72 8 0 32 73 176 76 78 1 0 .483 .746 .305
2001 St. Louis Cardinals 97 299 48 56 4 0 29 64 147 56 118 0 0 .316 .492 .187

The season he hit 70 home runs, he struck out 155 times. All his numbers are WAY WAY below Bonds'.

Here are Sosa's numbers:

SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG

Chicago Cubs 162 642 90 161 31 4 36 119 308 45 174 22 12 .300 .480 .251
1998 Chicago Cubs 159 643 134 198 20 0 66 158 416 73 171 18 9 .377 .647 .308
1999 Chicago Cubs 162 625 114 180 24 2 63 141 397 78 171 7 8 .367 .635 .288
2000 Chicago Cubs 156 604 106 193 38 1 50 138 383 91 168 7 4 .406 .634 .320
2001 Chicago Cubs 160 577 146 189 34 5 64 160 425 116 153 0 2 .437 .737 .328
2002 Chicago Cubs 150 556 122 160 19 2 49 108 330 103 144 2 0 .399 .594 .288
2003 Chicago Cubs 137 517 99 144 22 0 40 103 286 62 143 0 1 .358 .553 .279
2004 Chicago Cubs 126 478 69 121 21 0 35 80 247 56 133 0 0 .332 .517 .253

Nothing to write home about, except for the home runs.

Bonds is an amazing player. Give him some credit.

[Shakespeare]

44. Well, sure, when you're intentionally walked most of the time....

That'd make anybody's numbers on Ks look good.

[Guaranteed]

45. McGwire and Sosa got that all the time, too.

Keep in mind all those walks make some of his numbers look bad, too- like RBIs, HRS, and if he wasn't good enough to not swing at garbage (most of the walks are not intentional), his AVG would go way down, too.

His AVG in combination with the SO's show his skill- walks or not.

[brentspeak]

46. Compare Bonds' recent HR numbers with his pre-94 HR numbers

Somehow he went from being a very fine slugger for all those years to amazingly becoming the new Babe Ruth as he pushes 40?

Nobody is questioning Bond's playing greatness; prior to the strike year, he more than made a strong case as the best everyday player of his generation. It's what's happened with his career since 1994, when MLB turned a blind eye towards steroids (and juiced balls, Coors Field, Enron Field, etc.) in it's quest for fan-enticing home runs, that doesn't pass the credibility test.

[Guaranteed]

53. Yes, but the HRs are only one issue.

Take the HR away from his stats, and they're still brilliant.

[Seabiscuit]

62. Oh, so since you believe MLB "turned a blind eye towards steroids"

since 1994 that THEREFORE Bonds MUST be guilty of illegal steroid use?

Read the article. NOTHING in that articles supports your claim, and everything in the article directly contradicts it. The cream and oil his trainer gave him during the past FOUR, not 10 years, have not been established to have been steroids, nor were the steroids "similar to" (in some undefined way) the cream and oil he used illegal at the time he used it.

Further, Bonds has consistently tested negative for steroid use.

They guy's just a damned good ballplayer. All he did was adjust his swing slightly and hard-hit-line-drive doubles turned into line-drive home runs. He doesn't hit monster shots like Sosa and McGuire. He just hits more HRs than anyone but Ruth and Mays to date. And take away his HRs and he's still one of the best ballplayers of all time.

[Seabiscuit]

63. There's absolutely no conclusive evidence that he did.

No admission, and no direct evidence, and years of testing negative for steroid use, all the while putting up HUGE batting numbers across the board.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

49. Exactly true-he is a smart hitter

and it is a shame that his great performance over the years will be sullied by the steroid issue.

[Bake]

51. Wrong. He's a big fat cheater.

Big fat cheater. That's it.

Bake

[Guaranteed]

52. See, you just want to be hateful. You're not even looking at what

he's done. Haven't even for one second considered the things that he's done that don't require strength. Or how his performance compares to others' who have used steroids.

[Renew Deal]

43. Hopefully as the cheating loser that he is.

Bonds is the worst of them because he is the biggest.

[CornField]

47. As just another cheater

you know, like *

[Queen Jane]

54. Hopefully, as someone who cheated...

Assuming the evidence bears that out...and it's hard to imagine that it won't. He should be ashamed. He's not fit to be mentioned in the same sentence with someone like Hank Aaron.

[Nevernose]

55. People don't discount Mark McGwire, do they?

He admited to using performance enhancers (after his record was firmly established, of course), not to mention benifitting from a longer season.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

58. I discount him

I think he's a lying fraud, too.

Compare what he looked like a couple of months after he retired with what he looked like when he "set the record."

A big old anabolic cheat, that's what he is.

[tcfrogs]

56. One of the five best hitters of all time

Steroids or not. I don't think steroids help your hand-eye coordination. That's the key to this discussion. Bottom line, the guy is one of the scariest hitters I've ever seen. He was a three-time MVP, in the early 90's, and got better with age.

BTW - If you want my top 5 hitters of all time, I'll say Ruth, Cobb, Williams, DiMaggio, & Bonds.

[Guaranteed]

59. Yup.

McGwire and Sosa are all power. Bonds is finesse.

[Seabiscuit]

65. I'd add Gehrig, Mays and Mantle.

[Seabiscuit]

60. WHOOOAAHHH, NELLIE!

Back that truck up a moment.

The premise of your inquiry is FALSE. This thread is based on your statement: "Now that word has leaked that Barry Bonds admitted to using steroids...."

WRONG.

See:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpcDBuM2RlBF9TAzk1ODYxNzc3BHNlYwN0aA--?slug=ap-giants-bonds-steroids&prov=ap&type=lgns

where it was reported:

"Bonds told the federal grand jury last year that Greg Anderson, his personal trainer and childhood friend, told him the substances he used in 2003 were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by the Chronicle.

"The substances Bonds described were SIMILAR TO ones known as ``the clear'' and ``the cream,'' two steroids from the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative at the center of the steroid scandal.

"Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, said the leak of the testimony was an attempt to discredit his client. Grand jury transcripts are sealed and the Chronicle did not say who showed them the documents.

"Rains described Anderson and Bonds as close friends who had been training together for about the last four years.

"``Greg knew what Barry's demands were. Nothing illegal,'' Rains said at a news conference in Oakland. ``This is Barry's best friend in the world. Barry trusted him. He trusts him today. He trusts that he never got anything illegal from Greg Anderson.''

"Even if the substances Bonds took were steroids, Rains said they were not banned by baseball at the time and the slugger believed they were natural. Bonds also maintains the substances did nothing to aid his rise as one of the game's greatest home run hitters, Rains said.

"``Barry was tested several times this year and the results of those tests were negative,'' said Bonds' agent, Jeff Borris.

NOTHING in that article constitutes an admission by Bonds that he took steroids, either knowingly or unknowingly. It merely asserts that he asked for strictly legal substances from his trainer, which happened to be "similar to" (in some unspecified way) known steroids from some laboratory, that when he used those items, even if they were steroids, unbeknownst to Bonds, they were not illegal at the time he took them, and that he has consistently tested negative for steroid use.

So people, please think twice before calling him a "cheater".

Look, I'm no big fan of Barry Bonds' personality either, in many ways he's a pouting, childish lout, but before you try attacking his performance as one of the best ballplayers of all time, you'd better get your facts straight and don't read into a report any more than is there.

[Califooyah Operative]

64. *

[Aiptasia]

66. He'll be remembered with an asterisk next to his records

As should anyone caught taking steroids. And don't hand me that crap about "well what about the other guys they didn't catch?"

Personally, he should be glad he isn't booted out of baseball. Comparing dopers to greats like Ted Williams, Hank Aaron and The Babe is a crime.

[CroixRoussienne]

67. Not As a Hall of Famer

McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and Giambi should be stripped of their records and banned from baseball forever, a la Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. NONE of them deserve the benefit of the doubt - they have hidden behind the MLBPA for years, while most of the fans, NL, and AL have looked the other way.

Hammerin' Hank and the Bambino are being RIPPED OFF!!

I have not found MLB credible since the strike, and it will take one hell of a reform movement to bring me back. Losers and cheaters with bad attitudes as big as their paychecks. Lying, lowlife scum Period.

AND Bonds is a prick!

[JVS]

68. Roided up fuckface

[Deja Q]

69. Tradition was spit on the moment it became a corporate property

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