What's up w/liberals telling me what I can and can't say all of a sudden?

[Bouncy Ball]

Seriously. I would ask this in a GD forum, but I am VERY hesitant to.

I see us in two groups now: one group feels like they should say "screw trying to be nice and word things in JUST the right way, I'm saying what I REALLY feel---the right's been doing it for YEARS" and one group feels like they should find new ways of saying things and be very careful about saying them, etc.

Guess which group I'd be in? The first.

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with framing. But I can completely see it being taken WAY too far. I already see it being taken too far on the GD forums. Don't say this, don't say that, say it like this, say it like that.

When is the DNC going to come out with the pre-approved list of words and phrases I can use and not use?

I detest this attitude. I live in a red state and spent most of my life biting my tongue. Finally, on November 3, I woke up and said "NO MORE." I had already loosened it up plenty between 2000 and November 2, 2004, mind you, but suddenly I had no candidate to have to "behave" for anymore. I could truly be the resistance.

So to have Dems, of all people, in a snit about what to say and not say, well let's just say I am NOT in that place right now. And personally I know of some right wingers who could use a little listening to some harsh points on their policies and politics.

[Forkboy]

1. I'm with ya

I'm not fond of biting my tongue either,and as time goes by I care less and less who it bothers :shrug:

[Bouncy Ball]

8. I have found that to be true, too.

I am in my mid-30s and say things now I wouldn't dream of saying when I was younger. Mind, I don't go around yelling epithets, but I do use my voice and speak up when I think something is wrong, etc. I do voice my opinion, something I should have been doing all along.

At this rate, though, I'm gonna be scary when I'm 80!!!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

33. I wonder if it's the age or just that were sick of all the BS

I'm in my mid-30's and I find I am doing the same thing now. I was so much more cautious of how I worded things when I was younger. Now I tell it like it is. I offend at times I am sure, I'm not rude just blunt.

[Kipepeo]

2. I'm in the same group as you

Though I think framing is something we need to master and I highly recommend Lackoff's book "Don't Think of an Elephant" - awesome.

But yeah, framing does not mean being afraid of offending fundies or Bush-lovers.

I think people are emotionally distraught right now (I know I am!) and are seizing on little things and blowing them out of proportion and claiming that the little thing they've seized upon is why we lost.

[Bouncy Ball]

7. I think you are right.

There is a lot of emotionalism. And I do love Lakoff's book--going to see him in June at DemocracyFest '05 and very excited.

[Kipepeo]

11. what is democracy fest 05

???

[Bouncy Ball]

20. It's going to be in Austin, Texas

in June 2005. Loads of workshops and speeches and a great time with Dems from all over!

[hlthe2b]

3. Ahhh, a "parasite" beholding to official doctrine NO MORE!

:evilgrin:

Seriously, I agree with you.

[Bouncy Ball]

4. Hee hee.

That's FORMER parasite!

[JohnKleeb]

6. there are some who never grew out of their parasite phase

like this guy.

[Bouncy Ball]

9. He's presently a parasite!

Not a former one like the rest of us!

How you doing Kleeb?

[JohnKleeb]

19. yep

me? I am doing good, a little tired out but good.

[neuvocat]

5. Shut up!

Sorry, just had to do that for levity's sake. In reality I agree with you a hundred percent on that.

[Bouncy Ball]

12. Thank goodness,

I was really starting to get a bit nervous. Haven't been on DU in a couple days and was wondering if maybe we got replaced by pod people over the weekend.

[Sperk]

10. I'm with you. I keep thinking about Suskind's (sp?) column about

how the Repugs call us "reality based" and they CREATE reality. You know what? They're right. These Repugs have been creating reality for many a year now. If perception is reality....they're getting away with creating it because there is not a "counter reality" offered with as much determination, aggressiveness and consistency.

We must offer our own REALITY as strongly and loudly as they do. Luckily, we can do it with honesty instead of deception as they do.

[Bouncy Ball]

15. Beautifully written.

And I agree 10000%. I've said much the same thing before. And I find myself very frustrated at the lack of clear, strong voices at the top for our side. :cry:

[Sperk]

Tell me about it.....can you imagine Soro's being the CEO of Diebold

having Diebold make the machines, create the software and count the votes. In addition, imagine if Dems were in courthouses all across the country fighting AGAINST a paper trail. Can you imagine for ONE NANOSECOND that the Repugs would have hesitated to raise holy Hell!?!?! Would they have been concerned about looking like conspiracy nuts?!?!? I think not.

One thing I'll say for Repugs....they're willing to FIGHT for what they believe in...too bad they're almost always so drastically wrong.
:-(

[nickgutierrez]

13. The last thing we need to do is be *more* careful.

We ran two cautious campaigns in 2000 and 2004, and lost both times in elections that shouldn't have been close enough to steal. If we're going to lose, we can't lose by using "acceptable" rhetoric and having "ideas" that sound too much like the Republican to mean anything. Or, more accurately, we can lose and we have, too often.

Now that I've said that, I realize that the party is looking for a new message, and in my opinion, being more cautious would be just as bad as moving further to the right. Back in the primaries, who was the candidate that first caught on with the public? Howard Dean, for saying a lot of the things that we've been saying all along. If we want to win next time, it'll have to be by 1. doing something about the voting machines, and 2. getting a guy that sounds more like Dean than Kerry.

[Bouncy Ball]

31. I could not possibly agree more.

Especially with your last two suggestions.

Then the problems are the media, the hold corporate America has even on the Dems, etc.

[Guaranteed]

41. I agree with your statement in GENERAL- but there are a couple

of specifics problems I have things that people say on DU, that I would NOT want getting out into the public as truly representative of the Democratic Party.

#1- The War on Terror doesn't exist/isn't real or the Bush administration made 9/11 happen. FORGET IT.

Attack them on Iraq- yes. Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time, totally wrong in EVERY way. Detrimental to the War on Terror, and IMMORAL. Fine, please DO. My faith in our country was destroyed by this war.

But don't even sympathize with Al Qaeda.

#2- This was just now, that I heard this- but calling fetuses "parasites"??? What the hell. Come on, folks. I said this in the other thread- this is actually our BEST pro-choice argument, but the last thing you need to do when making it is to get sidetracked when the Repuke calls you out and says "You think FETUSES/BABIES are PARASITES??? What is WRONG with you??? blah blah blah." THINK, PEOPLE!!! Use the right words when you're making an argument like that. Please don't RUIN it for others.

Shit. I am ALL FOR going straight at these motherfucker's throats. I say call 'em all the corrupt, murdering fascists that they are. Hell, USE THOSE WORDS.

Geez, you just gotta know the difference.

[Bouncy Ball]

45. And like I said below

no one is advocating using the word parasite. One guy said it on one radio show. And how the hell do we know he WAS a liberal?

(I know it sounds paranoid, but it's been known to happen plenty even here on DU...someone posing as a liberal for the sole purpose of making us look bad.)

I totally agree on point 1. There is MORE than enough to crucify the bush administration on the Iraq war alone. And letting OBL go.

[Guaranteed]

51. I thought that, too.

It's probably just a mistake, but I could see the right-wingers pulling out that word to actually pre-empt our best pro-choice argument, which for some reason we never use. That word taints the argument- the argument, in effect, says that the mother has the right to detach a fetus OR baby from her body, because it's simply her body (it's a civil liberties issue). If the Republicans came out and starting attaching that word to the argument, it would actually be really bad.

[Bouncy Ball]

53. Ah, I see.

See, I was just looking at it purely from a scientific standpoint.

Well, we can't exactly stop them from using it, but the Dems CAN speak up with a strong voice and say we never advocated looking at fetuses as parasites. One lone guy who is supposedly a liberal on a radio talk show doesn't speak for all of us.

Problem is, who are our loudest, strongest voices right now????

[mairceridwen]

55. I don't sympathize with al qaeda

but I have to say, there is enough evidence to suggest that the bush admin LET (not made) 9/11 happen in that they did not take adequate precautions and/or may have ignored warnings.

i see it as a totally separate issue that just speaks volumes of the priorities of the admininstration even before 9/11. it's about their whole inability to be held accountable for anything...is it not possible to blame al qaeda for the attacks AND blame the admin for not doing their best to protect us? I blame one for the attack and the other for some kind of defense/intelligence/priority failure. it's just consitent from the moment that shrub was appointed that he and his cronies are not doing the best by and for us.

[Guaranteed]

56. I don't rule-out LIHOP at all.

And we should investigate it, but as far as using it as a talking point, the best we can get away with is incompetence.

Totally agreed with you.

[Bouncy Ball]

60. I love to bring up

how pissed off I am that OBL is STILL on the loose. I remind whatever bushbot I am talking to that the guy who masterminded the deaths of 3000 Americans is still on the loose and making videotapes.

Then I make a single, trailing-off comment about how "9/11 DID happen while bush was in office.......I'll always have that horrible day associated with his presidency...."

They never like that. And it's the absolute truth.

[izzie]

14. Gee I do not care how you handle it.

Speak out if you feel like it. Wrong people get into office at times and they have now. Who knows when it will look wrong to more people. Do re-call we voted in to office people like Nixon and soon after he won people woke up. Many were telling us what he was all the time. We voters we just slow.

[Bouncy Ball]

23. I really didn't understand your post, but

cheers, anyway! :hi:

[realisticphish]

63. im guessing

cheers is the right word ;) :beer::beer:


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Turd Ferguson]

16. Good post

I certainly understand the way you feel about things. We're are in a weird situation in that we really have to do both of the things that you mentioned. Frame the issues and act respectful to the other side(even though they deserve none), and portray a strong message to the American people about how destructive this administration is. Either way, we're going to piss some people off. People will always think we go too far or not far enough. My opinion is that 2008 is very far away. We aren't going to be able to win the election anytime soon, so we need to be strong and present a firm message to the people.

[Bouncy Ball]

40. Yep!

[izzie]

58. I think you just keep going. The country always goes back and forth

People will wake up and see we went to far right and come back to the middle. We have all done this before. So we never learn. To far left or to far right? Or have I read it all wrong?

[Phentex]

67. I agree. And as for GD...

I guess I haven't been here long enough to be scared off by that forum.

Be yourself.

[Seabiscuit]

17. Welcome to the Democratic wing of theDemocratic Party

as Howard Dean used to say.

As for those word-mincing DLC'ers, I say fuck 'em. They've lost too many elections already in our name - time for them to exit stage right.

[Renew Deal]

24. I agree

fuck them all. Their not on our side anyway. Is Dean going to be the DNC chair? I hope so.

[Seabiscuit]

62. Dean would certainly be my choice for that position.

The DLC'ers are doing everything they can to keep him out, though.

[Courtesy Flush]

69. No no no!!! Let's stick with our losing game!

***Tongue in cheek***

[Tom Kitten]

18. I also happen to agree...

I still have the right to speak my mind (at least for now) and if people don't like what I say then they can kindly fuck off!

[Bouncy Ball]

32. Kindly fuck off, you are slaying me!

[Tom Kitten]

50. they particularly dislike it...

when you say it with a smile on your face and act all polite like....seriously!

[Renew Deal]

21. I think I partly agree

We should say what needs to be said. Framing is part of a larger strategy that shouldn't be based on a single online forum. It's gotta be part of a larger communication process. We need a better and a more unified message and DU can't do it alone.

[Bouncy Ball]

26. Agreed, Bleachers!

I totally agree with that.

Like I said, I do NOT disagree with framing, as per Lakoff. I do get a bit nervous when I see a lot of "NO don't say that! Say it this way!" Maybe because I've been "careful" in what I say almost all my life and I am surrounded by right wingers.

It hasn't gotten me or my party anywhere, as far as I can see. At least not in 2000 or 2004.

[magellan]

22. Me too

I've also come to see that the Democratic Party isn't nearly as liberal as many of its supporters (and opponents) believe it is. It certainly isn't as liberal as I am. Bad enough we have to put up with Bush** Loyalists telling us we're traitors for speaking our minds. Now many Dems seem to believe a more Republican-friendly and "moderate" approach is required.

All I have to say to that is :wtf:

[Bouncy Ball]

28. Oh I have known for quite some time

that the Dem party (on the whole) isn't as liberal as I am. But I do agree with many, if not most, of the ideals of the Democratic party, so here I am!

You nailed it: it's hard enough to hear it from the right wing, but from "our own" it's even harder.

[uppityperson]

37. democrats aren't liberal enough for me but they might get rid of bush

I'm all for viable 3rd and 4th partys. Go Democratic to dump bushites. Demos are way not liberal but I find the need to work with them as this may save the world.

[mairceridwen]

25. don't say

parasite or
fetus or
embryo or
pre-baby or
civil rights or
bodiliy integrity or
autonomy or
educated or
intellectual (dear lord, DO NOT EVER SAY INTELLECTUAL)
gay or
straight or
homosexual or
right wing or
facist or
republican or
latte or
cappucino or
green tea or
freeance peeance or
leftwing or
progressive or
subversive or
centrist or
liberal or
democrat or
wellstone or
franken or
malloy or
black or
white or
muslim or
islam or
israel or
palestine or
iraq or
weapons of mass destruction or
osama bin laden or
nine/eleven or
volkswagen or
corporate welfare or
medical marijuana or
prison industrial complex or
critical race theory or
senate ethics committee or
blowjob or
cigar or
monicagate or
oxycontin or
the world series or
breast cancer or
condom or
birth control or
sexuality or
mortal kombat or
tim robbins or
susan sarandon or
hybrid automobile or
recycling or
sustainable agriculture or
human rights or
geneva convention or
nipples

[Kipepeo]

35. *lol*

You forgot Poland.

No wait, that one's okay I think.

[Bouncy Ball]

42. NIPPLES NIPPLES NIPPLES!!!!

You forgot "elitist."

What about elitist nipples?

[mairceridwen]

47. elitist latte sipping nipples

elitist nipple sipping intellectual lattes


ENOUGH!!! i am going to bed.

[uppityperson]

27. I am tired of being pc but realize words can harm

I need a place/people to rant at, to let it all go and be able to emote what I want and need to say. However, I'm not going to tell people to do physically impossible sex acts with themselves either (or not often) or rant at the general public about fascism as peole won't listen. It serves as an automatic shut off the ears and ignore me as a godless librul with low moral valus. So, being politically correct is stupid, I'm glad we can call them Indians again rather than Native Americans because I was born in the USA and still am not a native american? And I am also distressed with the "how can you say kerry might not win, might have given up, how dare you say that" stuff too. Hey, right to free speech means we don't have to agree but we have the right to say it. thanks for letting me rant too.

[Bouncy Ball]

36. You're welcome!

:hi:

And for what it's worth, I agree. I currently don't go around yelling "FASCIST!" but I certainly reserve the right to! ;-)

[Elidor]

29. Right on, brutha - and can I get an amen?

Fuck PC. Fuck DNC & DLC. Fuck organized social norms sponsored by corporate whores. We have to get REAL on the democratic party. We have to supplant the democratic party and all their sycophantic apologists.

[Bouncy Ball]

39. Amen

but what do you mean by "supplant?"

And no fucking the DNC. I'm ok with fucking the DLC!

[Elidor]

52. Supplant

sup·plant    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (s-plnt)
tr.v. sup·plant·ed, sup·plant·ing, sup·plants

1. To usurp the place of, especially through intrigue or underhanded tactics.
2. To displace and substitute for (another)

Sorry, I'm not okay with the DNC. I will remain eternally suspicious of any party structure organized for the express purpose of RAISING MONEY. It may be necessary, but the people who do it should NOT be running the party - hello, Al From, hello Terry McAuliffe.

[Bouncy Ball]

54. Oh I'm NOT saying I'm happy with the leadership

or the fact that both parties are heavily in bed with corporations (at the top), but I do agree with the Dem party ideals and I feel overall we have the better plan, vision, message, nicer people, etc.

[magellan]

57. Amen!

Let's not forget, the Republicans did a damn good job of framing us without worrying about the words they used. "Communist", "socialist", "anti-American", "unpatriotic", "traitor", "God-hating", "terrorist-loving"...and on and on. Remember too, they're the ones who profess to be frustrated with politically-correct talk from the Dems. So what do Kerry and the DNC/DLC do? Avoid the word "liar" when referring to Bush** (Kerry's biggest mistake IMO) and try to stifle language from the left even more.

The Dem Party problem is they let the Reichwing define them -- vociferously and crudely -- while they sat there and took it. And they're still taking it.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't let anyone get away with calling me a traitor to my country. Them's fightin' words. And I give as good as I get.

[Guaranteed]

30. Well, if we're going to frame debates correctly, we have to think

about our image.

You don't show up at a debate wearing rags, do you? You gotta think about how you're presenting yourself. Mostly, I think that means don't even think about letting yourself get called a terrorist sympathizer. A TERRORIST sympathizer- Iraq is not part of the war on terror.

And don't call fetuses parasites. Bad, bad, bad. Not necessary, either, for us to win.

Past that, I say BEAT THE FUCKING SHIT OUT OF THEM.

[Bouncy Ball]

38. Arg.

No one on that entire thread advocated calling fetuses parasites as part of the Democratic rhetoric. It was said by one guy on one radio call in show on one day. As some pointed out, look what is said on the typical right wing show and compare. No comparison. I was tuning around and unlucky enough to catch one calling for the beheading of liberals in America for treason.

No of course I don't show up to a debate wearing rags. I said I agreed with framing, totally. I'm just wondering if the framing concept isn't being taking to ridiculous lengths almost to the point of being self-defeating.

But beyond that, yeah! I totally agree! LOL!

[Guaranteed]

46. Yeah, just

read my post above, #41. I set it out a little clearer.

[Bouncy Ball]

49. I saw it, sorry!

:hi:

[mairceridwen]

44. iraq is most certainly part of the war on terror

it's us terrorizing the middle east.


let's just call the parasites Sam and be done with it.

[mairceridwen]

34. BB

i'm with you

but you knew that

check yer PM

[Philostopher]

43. If I read you correctly ...

you have no problem framing the existing values of the left; it's reshaping the values in order to suit people who already vote Republican that bothers you. When framing the message becomes shaping the message (two entirely different actions and motivations), it changes the whole ball game.

I never really thought about it the way the upper reaches of the Dem Party seems to feel it must, but I do 'troll' people I suspect are Republicans, or wobbly Dems who have voted for Bush, because I find it forces them think about how this stuff affects them, personally. I don't talk about issues as partisan issues -- I simply present them as human issues and point out the flaws and fallacies of the way Bush is handling them without being specific, like outsourcing or union-busting (just as examples).

Most of the time, they probably figure out that I'm liberal -- but, at the same time, I'm also pragmatic and rational, and even if they don't agree, they don't feel like they have any right to trample all over me.

But when 'framing the debate' becomes 'shut up and only say what we tell you,' it leaves us little room for adjusting the message on the personal level, and you're right -- nobody has told me what to say since I did my senior class play in high school, and at forty, I'm not about to sit back and say, 'okay, you've lost the last two elections, or at least didn't win them with enough of a margin they couldn't be tilted to the other guy by subterfuge. Please tell me how to speak about my own party, since you've been so successful for the past four years.' That ain't cuttin' it.

[Bouncy Ball]

48. Wow,

fantastic post. And yeah, that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

Funny, I do the very same thing you described in talking to bush voters. Before the election, I actually swayed several wobbly ones into going all out for Kerry by taking the same approach.

I can't add much more to what you said--you summed it up quite well. Oh and check your PM!

[Philostopher]

59. It's funny that when it's framed as a partisan issue ...

they'll make any excuse for the Naked Emperor they can find, and often get angry with you for bringing it up.

But when it's something that happens to them, and they've told you about it, and you can link it directly to this administration's policies ... they get deathly quiet and then change the subject.

I don't know if I affected any votes or not, but I hope I did at least make some people who were willing to vote fear understand that what they feared most, Bush wasn't necessarily going to protect them from -- like losing their jobs or their health insurance -- and that in fact, his administration had directly articulated or implemented policies to make those things more difficult for American business to manage to the employee's benefit.

It'll be harder for me to be coy about it for a while -- I so much want to just say, 'yeah, well, it's Bush's fault and you probably voted for him,' but I know that won't make any difference. By articulating it in a way they can't argue or dismiss what I've said, even if they continue to apologize for Bush, it'll eventually back them into the corner on certain issues that he genuinely can be proved to be bad on.

[sandnsea]

61. Communication skills

I think it means saying things in a way that others can hear you. Say what you like, but if nobody understands you, you haven't communicated. I think that might be the point. Maybe.

[realisticphish]

64. you know what's interesting?

in the Lounge, NO ONE has shit on you for saying that... just interesting, thats all


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[chicagojoe]

65. Isn't saying what we want to/need to why we're here?

I, for one, will not mind my tongue. I've been scolded here by moderators. Freedom of speech, my friends.

[Phentex]

66. I agree. If not here, then where?

:shrug:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

68. I totally agree!!

I say what I mean when I mean to say it and it is no one else's business to tell me to word it differently. If I'm being rude, that's one thing, or using hate speech, which I would NEVER do. We've earned the right to be up front and honest! They need to quit bitching about words that most of them don't use correctly anyway. I mean, if nothing else, notice my sig line now. I'm at the point I just don't give a shit anymore, if I ever did.
Duckie

[Flammable Materials]

70. One of the reasons why I insist on being an independent.

And also a reason why I have trouble finding organizations that I can dedicate 100% of my time and energy working for. I guess at heart I'm a libertarian (small "l"), but I have a hard time using that word because of the baggage it carries sometimes. I suppose I have a hard time with most labels, although I certainly have no problem calling myself a liberal.

Political correctness kills intellectual curiosity and it kills creative thinking. It's as bad as fundamentalism.

PC is not the same as common courtesy. Just because you detest political correctness doesn't mean you're going to go out of your way to offend people in public. But common courtesy is reserved for those who show they deserve it.

[lojasmo]

71. Say what you want, how you want, but....

If you run for office, prepare to lose.

[forgethell]

72. I'm with you,

let it all hang out.

And the people who have to hear you will form their own opinions and have their own reactions. Freedom for ALL!!!!

Merry Christmas:-)

[amazona]

73. agree with you

Being mealy-mouthed and polite doesn't work, see under Daschle. We need to speak our minds -- and loudly.

The right does not concern itself with being polite or even minimally civil. They are allowed to spread hate freely.

If one side can trumpet its beliefs, and the other side whispers, then the loud noisy side will end up being heard and the courteous whispering side won't be heard. As the wingnuts are not going to voluntarily start being sane and courteous, we have no sane option but to talk louder and make ourselves heard.

[Zomby Woof]

74. It's not "all of a sudden"

The Great Liberal Orthodoxy Patrol (GLOP) is part and parcel of GD, and always has been. It really hasn't changed in the over 3 years I have been here. You must be a particular kind of proper liberal or you will be flamed and scorned. You're a Rove plant, DLC centrist, freeper, or eat babies if you don't adhere to the strict moral code and sanctimonious platform and behavior of GLOP. Never mind the irony that I am usually more progressive than those who hate my independent bent. GLOP doesn't let the truth get in the way of ideological self-purity.

Buck up. Have a thick skin. Whining about this in the Lounge won't even get you sympathy from people who agree.

[Bouncy Ball]

75. Oh I've got plenty thick skin

I'm not *personally* offended (that takes an awful lot). I was simply alarmed at what I perceived to be taking what we should say to an extreme length. And actually, I see quite a bit of agreement from people here. I wasn't looking for sympathy, just trying to see if this is a new phenomenom or what. You answered that.

Love the acronym, gonna have to remember that.

[MrSandman]

76. I remember not saying the "right" things...

and all of a sudden I'm not stating the "real Democratic" position.

Like I can't have some opinions different from "whoever" was appointed to decide the "right" position on all issues.

[Bouncy Ball]

77. I think within our party

there is room for movement (unlike in the republican party).

Obviously if a Dem starts talking about how they hate paying taxes and they hate having to help pay for food stamps with their tax money, etc, obviously a lot of other Democratic eyebrows will be raised.

But we all pretty much have an idea of where those lines of demarcation are.

[MrSandman]

78. I feel guilty come tax time...

For at least three years.

[SmokingJacket]

79. I agree. I think the "framing" thing is bullshit .

It's ad-talk, all about "selling" the democratic "message."

Sorry. Fuck it. If I was all about selling I'd be a Republican.

I want our side to win as much as anyone, but I'm not going to walk on eggshells for four years like a hypocrite.

If I "alienate" middle america, oh, well. They've alienated me every day I've been alive.

Thank you.

[gollygee]

80. I've had to basically stop reading GD

I am so tired of that kind of thing.

It's just sad. We don't need to turn republican to get elected. Or, if we do, what's the difference between that and what we've got anyway?

*sigh*

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. Nice OP but you really shouldn't say it that way

:evilgrin:

[AusTexDem]

82. Glad I'm not the only one.

[Left Is Write]

83. Never stop saying what you think.

Make your voice heard.