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To end flamewar over music----almost all music is derived from Bach

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 01:54 PM
Original message
To end flamewar over music----almost all music is derived from Bach
The entire tonal system was was creation of Bach. Aside from expireiemental jazz and classical pieces, all modern music is derived from Bach's tonal system.
Whites did not 'steal' black music to create rock and roll---early rock and roll was a hybrid of Country, folk, rockabilly and Blues. Depending on the artist, one influence would be more dominate than the next. In Carl Perkins, it was more rockabilly. Elvis did "Hound Dog', a blues classic by Big Mama Thornton (check out the original)

Indeed, blues is derived from slave chants, work songs and touches of southern folk music---and blues basic chord structure I-IV-V is the most common structure in tonal music, created by JS Bach.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. What about music that originated in Africa?
The drum music or whatever it's called
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. There are saome traces left over in the slave songs
but ultimately blues was pretty much a blend of traditional, american gospel, work songs and hillbilly folk

Perhaps some of the 'blue' notes, or dischords (notes out of key), are from some distant african origin, where the music played on a different system but most blues is tonal with occasional 'blue notes'. Then again Beethoven uses 'blue notes' often too.

and Blues does use a tonal chord pattern, the most common one--I-IV-I-V
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes, but there are a lot of traces of African music
In Samba, Meringue, Salsa, Cumbia, etc.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. No disagreement
There are traces of all kinds of music in all other kinds of music
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Face it man, we stole civilzation from Africa
The only honorable thing to do would be to renounce it.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Actually, we stole civilization from Mesopotamia
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Either way, it wouldn't be right for white people to continue
using something that isn't their's.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. death to whitey
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. lol....roger that
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. As much as I love Ole JS ....
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 02:16 PM by Trajan
and while I admit his role in creating the 'well tempered scale', and while I admit his music transcended the period composers in sophistication and complexity, as well as aesthetic beauty ....

As much as I admit all that: I think you can over-stretch HIS influence over the entire record of western music ....

Do recall that his 'well tempered scale' were predated by more sophisticated and cumbersome systems (which is why he created the tempered scale, because it was difficult to provide uniformity amongst different types of instruments) .... The so called -modes-, Phrygian, Dorian, Aolian, et al .. were of greek origin, and more than a few mimic those found in the tempered system ....

Furthermore: the pentatonic scale types, like those used extensively by blues musicians everywhere, were NOT necessarily part of the 'tempered' tradition .... it should also be noted that while Bach was an innovator of specific sequential musical forms, the simpler forms, particularly binary and rondo types, predated JS by a few centuries ....

Bach is and should be credited with much ... but as a student of the old man, I must admit that when I was finished studying his volumnous scholastic and artistic works, and when I was done playing with fugue and motet: I had to forget the old man, and reintroduce myself to MY roots ....

I had to toss Bach out to regain Chuck Berry, Jimmy Page and Bob Dylan .... I had to forget what I studied of him to again find the rock and roll ground I sprung from ....
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Pentatonics are variations on tonal scales
and blues and most jazz include 'blue notes', which are notes out of scale but the blues is still based on the tonal system.
atonal music is more like Schoenenberg or some way out Jazz


as for modes, modal music is not all that pleasing to listen to and I would hardly call it 'more sophisticated'--rather I consider it far less sophisticated
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Well ... THIS discussion forced me to study up again ....
and hot damn: We are both 'less than correct' ....

An excerpt from : Microtones and Scale Temperments - History Part 2 ... http://www.cdss.fsnet.co.uk/temper/no-frames/history2.htm

Various other people had their two cents worth, so to speak, in order to find ways of making ensemble playing and multi-part music in general easier. In particular, it had been noted that people had a natural tendency to sing intervals that were closer to being pure rather than the intervals within the 3-limit, 2:1 and 3:2. Also, there were considerable difficulties in fitting these intervals within the limits of a keyboard and make them serve the requirements of the musical form. One major contribution to the theories of temperament was Giuseppe Zarlino, the Maître de Chapelle of St. Marks in Venice, who in 1560 proposed inverting the Major and Minor tones of the upper group in Aristoxenus's scale to relieve the monotony of having two identically tuned halves of the scale. This gives us the following intervals:


C D E F G A B C'
Zarlino 0 204 386 498 702 884 1088 1200


This is, effectively, the puretone scaling. He then suggested reducing every fifth by two sevenths of a comma in order to lose the comma amongst the rest of the intervals. This method of redistributing commas was further refined by Francis Salinas, a blind musician and Professor of Music in Naples, among others. Here we have the start of Meantone temperament, the purpose of which is to redistribute the intervals such that the principle ones, such as fourths and fifths remain fairly true and others retuned so as to still fulfil their function within the scale. The most common way of achieving this is to flatten the first four fifths C-G, G-D, D-A, A-E reducing them enough to produce a true third - this also has the effect of removing the difference between the Major and Minor tones producing a "Mean" whole tone between the two, hence the name. Thus the Major thirds and the Minor sixths are true whereas the fifths are a little flat.

The problem with this is that only keys that have few accidentals sound OK, others less so. This allows the use of the first six major keys in the cycle of fifths and the first three minor and also allows a certain degree of modulation from key to key.One of the most problematical intervals is the fifth G#-D#. It is way too sharp and its inversion too flat - this is known historically as the Wolf Tone, so called because the mistuning was reminiscent of the howling of wolves - there are other wolves but this one is the most disturbing. The Wolf Tones are probably the main reason that composers of the period avoided using keys with a large number of accidentals. For example, Mozart rarely, if ever, composed any works in Db, F#, Ab and B Major or C#, Eb, F, F# and G# Minor as these keys make wolf tones stick out like a sore thumb. Curiously he also avoided B Minor which is all the more odd when you consider that his favourite key was D Major, closely followed by C and Bb Major<5>.

It is worth remembering at this point that the main reason for all this tomfoolery is the burgeoning development of the keyboard. Because there is a physical limitation on the number of keys which can be used to play notes, some means had to be found to permit the tonalities demanded by developments in polyphonic music to work within this limitation <6>. Incidentally, a good orchestra will effectively play in puretone temperament but will constantly adjust its intonation so as to achieve the most concordant sound (remember that concordancy or discordancy is judged solely by its perceived effect on the ear) but with the pianoforte <7> becoming a more dominant force in Western composition and composers seeking to explore this new tonal palette, some means had to be found to facilitate their requirements.

Both Zarlino and Salinas knew about equal temperament but disliked the severe mistuning inherent in the thirds and sixths but, like the moving hand of Omar, progress moves ever on. A French monk called Marin Mersenne was probably the first person to calculate the equal tempered semitone, the basis for equal temperament, in around 1620 although some people accredit Simon Stevin, an organ tuner at the workshops of Andreas Werckmeister with the discovery somewhat earlier in 1608. There is also evidence to suggest that a Chinese gentleman by the name of Chu Tsai-yu worked it out several years before its calculation in the West. Since the guiding principle for equal temperament is the redistribution of the comma amongst all the intervals of the scale and not just certain ones as most variations on meantone temperament seek to do, the best way to do this is to find the twelfth root of 2, i.e., that number when multiplied by itself twelve times equals 2: this number is 1.059463094; this interval ratio is the equal tempered semitone. Composers now had, at least in theory, complete freedom to modulate to any key without hearing wolf tones - but at a price.

It has been suggested that J.S. Bach wrote "The Well-Tempered Clavier" for equal temperament but this is erroneous. Research by the American musicologist John Barnes in the Seventies shows that what Bach probably used was a variation on meantone temperament devised independently by Francescantonio Vallotti and Thomas Young. It is almost certain that Bach knew of the existence of equal temperament but would have never used it himself as it would have been impractical to tune a clavichord this way since its pitch alters depending on how hard the keys are struck; in extreme circumstances, the pitch can vary by up to a Minor 3rd.


-snip-
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thank you for posting that
I need to catch up on my music theory as well
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. It's Schoenberg
and your posts are as fraudulent as clicks on a Diebold machine.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. man, I wish I understood this stuff
I'm not much of a musician but this aspect of music really sounds interesting. Why we use the scales we use, why minor keys sound "sad" and the history of it all appeals to the mathematician and the physicist in me. And what are modes? And what exactly did Bach do to create the "tonal system?"

Can anyone recommend a good book to get an intro to this stuff?
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. This is the field of 'Psycho-Acoustics' ....
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 02:53 PM by Trajan
and is quite fascinating ...

Firstly: if one sounds a tone on an instrument, the actual sound is comprised of naturally occuring 'partials' or 'harmonics', which are multiples of the fundamental (F) tone ... the first partial (2xF) is the octave ... the second partial (3xF) is the 'Dominant' tone, otherwise known as the '5th' scale degree ... the third partial (4xF) is yet another octave ... the fourth partial (5xF) is the 'median' tone, AKA the 3rd scale degree .... and the series continues on from there ... with each succesive partial having less and less volume (energy) until they are imperceptable ...

so: musical scales, and the reason they impact human perception, and therefore human emotion, is based on the purely physical aspects of sound and the natural generation of harmonics ...

The 'modes' were a set of scales based on what are now called 'white notes' ... in other words: the 'white keys' on a piano keyboard ....

One starts on ANY of the white keys, using that key as the 'tonic note' (the key note), and then builds melodies and chords around that note .... each 'mode', having different interval sequences (recall that white keys are sometimes interleaved with black keys, and sometimes not: in this pattern from 'C' wbwbwwbwbwbw) ... the type of mode will affect the 'feel' of the melody and chord, just as major and minor chords affect the emotion in modern music ... I believe that the 'Aeolian' mode is the C Major scale, with the Dorian starting at 'D', and the Phrygian starting on 'E' ... I cnanot recall the others ..... it's been some time since I cared to look at these .....

I am still unclear WHY minor scales have an air of sadness about them .... this emotive reaction isnt necessarily borne of physics ....

Really .. a very fascinating area of study ...

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. What a white supremacist post!!!
:evilgrin:

So any music pre-dating 28 July 1750 is to be disregarded. Secure in the knowledge that my relationship to this incredible "dead white man" is MUCH MORE INTIMATE than yours I simply say, "SHAME ON YOU, ZUNI!" :spank:

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. how is it white supremacist? Hear me out
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 04:15 PM by Zuni
The post comes from the knowledge that JS Bach is credited with developing the tonal system of music that almost all music uses today.

Music before Bach was largely based on modes, rather thaqn keys or scales as they are today.
Modular music is often unpleasant and discordant, although some modes match certain keys fairly accurately. It was a primitive and practically dead form of music. You only really hear modular compositions in expireimental music (Miles Davis's album ESP is one example---and it is very hard to get into, because there is no basic tonal structure to fall back on)

I was saying almost all music, wether punk, blues, jazz, reggae, country, bluegrass or whatever is composed in keys and scales, the keys and scales developed by JS Bach.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. There is NOTHING more frightening
than IGNORANCE in action. -Goethe

WESTERN MUSIC, Zuni!!! That is NOT all that is! Meine ficken Fresse.
Have you ever heard of a "quarter-tone?" :eyes:
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Yes. But we weren't discussing sitars
I was responding to a person who said all white musicians stole black music. I was pointing out that most music today---and even in the third world most music today is based on western music, however loosely, is in some way derivitave of JS Bach. Most third world musicians tend to play pop, while a minority still play ancient and traditional pieces.
I am sorry I didn't think about Ravi Shankar or some African drum band---I guess I am not as culturally sensitive as you.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Clearly you are NOT AT ALL sensitive
and CLEARLY you are NOT a musician.

Forgive me, Zuni. Your words have scraped a scab raw. I realize you must be very young, however in this moment I TOTALLY RESENT your ignorant, asinine declarations and would dearly love to push you into the Rocky & Bullwinkle time-machine after injecting you with a skin color syringe, that you MIGHT get a clue.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. The majority of modern music is western based
except for a dwindling number of traditional musicians, most music being made around the world is partially derived from western styles.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. From a white supremacist viewpoint
certainly.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. Music is dead. Has been for a thousand years.
New music is original combinations of music that came before it.

It's all the property of the muse.
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the Princess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
17. stupid double post
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 03:24 PM by the Princess
:)
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the Princess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. No
All music derives from African rhythm.

Not white people.
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furrylitldevil Donating Member (555 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. Nope,
All music is derived through...ME!!!

Hans-Johan-Sebastian-Beethovamozart-Wager...aka furrylitldevil
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parkening Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
20. Western music is influencing African music nowadays
Listen here: www.npr.org/ramfiles/asc/asc20.mtukudzi.ram

if that doesn't work try here: www.npr.org/ramfiles/asc/asc20.mtukudzi.asx

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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Just goes to show how it all comes full circle
It sounds to me like we Really want to segregate our music into divisions based on who "owns" it.
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parkening Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. We're all standing on the shoulders of giants
Some of our musical forebears are well known for their contributions great and small: Bach and BB King.

Others are unknown: the cat that "discovered" the blue note and me.

Modern-day contributions that advance the state of the art are few and far between, but they are their none-the-less. And we're all better for it.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Indeed we are, which is not to say that we should ignore
the racial politics of music, it is art after all, and art is art, wouldn't you agree? ;)
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parkening Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I don't know
art, but I know what I like. You may be perfectly right, I'm not a super deep music/art thinker.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. It was just an old chestnutt
like: "boys will be boys" or something to that effect. It doesn't really MEAN anything it just means, "art is art"
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parkening Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I do agree that art is indeed art
It's been fun, GBMAG. ;-)
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
31. Bach Humbug
:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Stimmt. ABER...
Do get a copy of his Xmas Oratorio and run it by your ears before the season ends. Ahhhh BLISSSSSS!!!!
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
36. nothing new under the sun since plainchant.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
38. You caught me on a bad day, Zuni
with your arrogant, ignorant, half-assed, air-head, idiotic, full-of-assumptions-of-superiority, HISTORICALLY INCORRECT declarations in your post.
May this thread drop into HELL. I'll go to sleep now and will be MUCH more accommodating, compassionate, and understanding next time I log on, ready to engage our yung'uns rather than slapping them into next week.

It's transference. My kid is moving out, spouting shit and to keep the peace I've refrained from giving him the shit I've unleashed on our dear Zuni. So ist das! ;-)

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