Is this really considered a plus size girl ???

[gatorboy]

http://www.hottopic.com/store/product.asp?LS=0&ITEM=279242



I mean, c'mon! She might be a little curvey around the hips (And I like curvey!), but she doesn't seem plus size! It's getting to where if a girl is more then 90 pounds she's considered obese these days! :shrug:

[redqueen]

1. Yes

Sad, isn't it?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. shes hot!

[jonnyblitz]

41. i think so...n/t

[Wapsie B]

169. Yes she is!

[Stand and Fight]

255. Yummy!! She's very yummy to look at!! n/t

[WCGreen]

266. Way hot....

Won't get poked by an erant bone now will you....

[RagingInMiami]

3. When I think plus size women

They're much larger than that.

[Doctor_J]

214. whew!

i thought when i clicked on your post i was going to get a pic of Bar Bush. don't need that tonight.

[Pithlet]

4. Anything bigger than a size 6 is considered plus size.

It's ridiculous.

[MuseRider]

10. Uh oh. n/t

[Pithlet]

50. ???

I hope I didn't offend. My point was that the message is that anyone who isn't stick thin is out of the norm regarding size.

[MuseRider]

68. NO It was funny!

I meant it as "Uh Oh I am WAY over that size" and I am not a plus size. I'm sorry I did not make myself clear. No offense taken at all.

[Pithlet]

104. Good.

I just wanted to make sure :)

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

207. I'm plus sized then. I wear a size 8.

5'6" 125lbs... I'm just huge. :)

[Stand and Fight]

256. Yeah right...

Maybe this will boost you up, but you could stand to gain a few pounds. (By the way, I know you were kidding about being huge! I just hate how the media idolizes skeletons. :puke: )

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

352. I'm just pointing out how big a size 8 is

and how ridiculous it is to use the terminology of plus-sized for sizes over 6. The modeling industry is crazy.

Someone else posted about 5'11" models wearing a size 0. That's absolutely insane!

:crazy:

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

374. Well, it seems I'm not even a size 8.

I had some shorts that I bought 10 years ago that are a size 8 that fit me now, so I thought I wore an 8. I went shopping for pants (at evil Walmart)just yesterday. I tried on several different brands, and apparently I wear a size 4. I didn't think I was really that small. Sorry to mislead everyone. :(

[mairceridwen]

338. um no...

But women who model for plus sizes are around a size 8

[elperromagico]

5. No, she's not plus-size. She looks rather slim, actually.

Plus-size, in my opinion, starts at a Rubens painting and goes up from there.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

250. and the camera lens adds 20lbs

[stinkeefresh]

6. sexy.

One of the biggest lies around is that most men like thin women. Some do. Many don't. Most probably like whatever the tv tells 'em to like.

Me, I like curves of all kinds.

[Lisa0825]

22. funny thing is that when I check the internet personals....

95% of men, even if they themselves are overweight, request women that are thin, slender, or athletic. It amazes me when i see a big overweight guy who doesn't want to hear from women with a little meat on her bones!LOL

[stinkeefresh]

27. I pity those people.

They probably think they want SUVs and giant TVs and that they don't like quiche. Poor idiots will never know what they really want.

And in the mean time, I'll be happy to entertain all the curvy women over at my table...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

274. Hmmmmmmmm. Quiche.

[CarbonDate]

52. Well, there's a reason they're looking at internet personals

* Which is not at all to disparage people who use internet personals; I've used them myself, but I've never had a positive experience with one of them. In the case of these guys, they're probably looking for that rare bird who's a knock-out but likes fat guys. It is to laugh at, but everybody has to have their fantasy, I suppose.

Also, in their defense, I've seen women who categorize themselves as "average" or "above average" who are plainly obese. I don't understand being less than honest in those, since it's not like the guy isn't going to find out. Plus, lying is a huge deal-breaker for me, especially on the first date. I'll date a large woman who tells the truth before I'll date a knock-out who lies.

[baba]

192. What is "plainly obese" to you?

The average sized woman in the US is size 14. So if she is a size 14, then she IS average. You have been brainwashed into thinking size 4 is "normal" when in actuality that is not the case.

[Stand and Fight]

260. Nope the average size woman in the use is...

Not what you said about size 14 for sure... I'd say more around a size 8 to 10. Here's a couple of sites for you:

http://anniesrichards.tripod.com/bodysize.htm
http://www.cycnet.com/englishcorner/speaking/topics/women.htm


And like it or not, but size 14 is definitely pushing obese. And just for your information I defintely prefer women with curves and busty. Twigs actually turn me off a great deal, but I am not attracted to overly obese women. Nonetheless, there is the occasional overweight lady who really turns me on. Don't mean to offend, but I am not one to mince words.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

267. average American woman is 5'4" and 152 lbs.

According to the height/weight charts (though these were created in the 1924's and based only on those able to afford health insurance at the time...overwhelmingly white and male), 152 is "overweight" even for a large-framed 5'4" woman. "Obese" is a different matter, and not a word to be used lightly. "Overweight" can mean even one pound out of the normal weight range. Usually this is about 10% extra body weight than the ideal. "Obese" is its own higher category, referring to 30% extra body weight. A great deal of stats about the health risks associated with weight only refer to obesity - they just get generalized to mean "anyone with love handles".

Anyhoo, a 5'4" and 152lb. woman DOES usually wear a size 12-14. It's a simple matter of physics.

Here's a couple of sites for you.
http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/growthcharts2/f/avg_wt_female.htm
http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/growthcharts2/f/avg_ht_female.htm
http://www.fatso.com/article.html

I bet you'd be surprised at how many attractive women you know wear a size 14. We're trained from middle-school on to lie about our weight and age as much as we can get away with it. I've even had DOCTORS refuse to believe my actual weight when I told them.

[Skittles]

349. hey

I am 5"4, 155 pounds and wear a sice 8 -10, go figure. :)

[mairceridwen]

337. ARE YOU INSANE???

I was a size 14 many years ago and I was in NO WAY pushing obese. I was 5'6" and weighed about 156 pounds. NOT OBESE

Now I am a size 8-10, around 142-144 pounds.

Marilyn Monroe was around a size 12-14

I know what and it is NOT a size 14.

Maybe a size 24, but not a 14.

[SoCalDem]

373. The dirty little secret?? Manufacturers "adjusted" the size/measurements..

Want to see it for real? Order a "vintage outfit" online..something that was made in 1945-70

Think you are a size 8? Order a size 8 from each decade.. You will feel like the fattest person alive..

The STANDARD measurement for a size 8 (in 1966) was measurements 30-22-30....

get out the tape measure and see where YOU stack up..

Size 12 was 32-24-32
Size 14 was 34-26-36
Size 16 was 36-28-36

I was an "indentured servant":) as a teenager, to my Aunt and her specialty shop.. We specialized in clothing that was sized by the measurements, instead of some arbitrary number pulled out of the air..

There were also companies that sized "generously" with a wink-wink to flatter the ladies..

Couture items are ALWAYS sized with "extra" room (for alterations...yeh sure:)..)

[baba]

346. Size 14 is hardly pushing obese.

Also: the first study you cited was conducted on military recruits. Not exactly representative of the population. The second one didn't really say anything, and had no citations to sources.

[American Tragedy]

350. But what do "sizes" even mean? They're arbitrarily defined by designers

I've always wondered why clothing sizes are not standardized and based specifically on measurements. It would make shopping a lot easier.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

370. I agree. I've always said that if I didn't hate fashion so much,

I'd get into it for the sole purpose of standardizing women's sizes. Since I DO hate fashion...I just buy men's clothes. Saves all that fitting room time. :)

[tigereye]

70. yeah I have never understood that

[Medium Baby Jesus]

170. Don't get me started

I've done the internet dating thing. :scared: I've learned that "average" usually means at least 30 pounds overweight. I figure many of the guys lie as well but I haven't dated any. :)

[yardwork]

174. I know a guy like that. He's an unmarried freeper. No surprise.

[TexasBushwhacker]

185. Yup, there are just as many men that lie

I just went out with a guy who, at 49, said that he felt and looked 10 years younger. I didn't really care, but frankly, he may feel like he's 39, but he looked his age.

I've seen pictures of men with 3 chins who describe themselves as "about average" or "a few extra pounds".

If they request women that are thin, slender or atheletic, I don't contact them, although I've had some that have contacted me and I'll be totally straight with them and say, "But didn't you read my profile? I'm a size 18." At least they can't say I was lying.

[rhino47]

273. I wish I could find the cartoon I used to have about that Lisa

It showed a beer belly balding man looking in the mirror.The image in the mirror showed a buff hot stud.
The woman was rail thin and beautiful the image in her mirror showed
rosanne barr.How sad but true.
<edit arggh rhino`s cant type this morning>

[billyskank]

7. Plus size my ass!

[StopTheMorans]

9. would you like plus size fries to go with that?

[AlCzervik]

8. Yes, she isnt a size -4 and she isnt half dead looking

so she's considered plus size. Pathetic isnt it?

[Stand and Fight]

261. Pathethic and very, very sad.

Kinda like most of those so called "super models".
Give me a woman with some meat any day over a frickin twig.

[blondeatlast]

11. She looks fine to me, and I'm more slender than her.

My husband would find her very attractive.

Contrast her with Paris Hilton--on second thought, I like you all too much.

[johnnie]

12. THATS plus size?

Ummm..ok. WTF? She looks fine to me.

[tigereye]

uh I think that is an average sized girl or woman

like most of us. The majority of women are size 14 on average.

[tjdee]

13. Tees run really small, though. (Well, those kind).

She doesn't look plus size, but for some reason as you said everything over 90 pounds is considered "plus".

[Phillycat]

14. Well, sure.

She's probably about a 16. "Regular" women's sizes run from 0-14. Anything above 14 is "plus size".

[Phillycat]

18. Also, take a look at her.

Her shoulders are narrow. Her bone structure is small. Yet she's carrying extra weight in her arms, face, and midriff, from what we can see in the photo. The photo also cuts off her lower half. I'm guessing she's pear-shaped and probably much larger on the bottom half.

I would say she's plus-size for sure. No value judgements, just observation.

[baba]

193. I disagree.

She is probably about a size 12, judging from her frame. I wear a 14, and there is no way that woman is larger than me! :)

[JVS]

20. Are these sizes in units of any sort?

[Phillycat]

21. They vary by manufacturer.

But there is a general range of inches for bust, waist, and hips that correlates to each size. I don't have it available right now, but I'm sure a quick Google search would turn up something.

I range from a size 0 to a size 6 depending on the manufacturer. But for MOST clothes, I am a 2. So there is SOME uniformity there. It's best to try everything on. :)

[JVS]

23. Have they ever considered going to an inches system like mens clothing?

[Phillycat]

I don't know.

I'm in my 30's and it's been sizes rather than inches for as long as I've been alive.

The sizes have gotten larger though, since I've been buying clothes. A 2 used to be MUCH smaller. I'm guessing that the 2's I wore in high school would not fit me now. They are probably equivalent to today's 0. As Americans have gotten fatter, sizes have gotten bigger because women don't want to buy higher-number sizes.

[American Tragedy]

351. My mom pointed that out to me once

Her old clothes are size 6, but today would be probably equivalent to a size 2. Also, I collect 1940s-1950s dresses, and I can tell you that sizes ran much smaller then.

I love Express and BCBG, for example, but even their size 0 pants hang down enough to expose my undies, and I am not bony-thin or anything, just fairly petite. It's frustrating. The higher-end designer brands are even worse, which is pretty ironic since they are displayed on notoriously gaunt supermodels.

My older sister is much thinner than me, about 94 lbs since she had her children, so I don't know how the hell she gets clothes.

[Phillycat]

45. Also--

there is a correlation between price of clothing and the size. I find the more expensive manufacturers have a bigger reprentation of the sizes. For example, I wear a 0 in Ann Taylor. Their clothes just run HUGE. But in cheaper clothes, like Mossimo at Target, I'll wear a 4 or even sometimes a 6. It's all about how they're cut.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

67. I find that too

I don't shop in expensive stores, but I had to get business clothes for a conference I attended last November, and in places like Charlotte Reusse or those higher-end stores, I was a 2... however, in cheaper juniors stores I am around a 5-7! It's kind of strange.

[NashVegas]

121. Haha

I remember my first pair of Ellen Tracy pants, in the late 1980s. You mean I'm 6?!? Whoo-hoo. Previously I'd always been an 8-10.

[Danmel]

294. Sizes make no sense

One of the great mysteries to me is how I can be a 6 or 8 in a skirt but a 2 in a coat. (Sometimes I buy girls coats in size 14 , but a kids 14 shirt or skirt would be snug.) I should note that I am only 5 feet tall. I am a bit overweight- about 5-8 pounds or so, but being short doesn't help.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

210. Interesting...

That's how all these celebrities can claim to be size 4 and under.
I buy most of my clothes at Walmart. I usually wear a size 8 for clothes at that store, maybe a 6 (I haven't shopped for clothes in a long time so I'm not really sure). I guess if I was wealthy I'd probably be wearing a size 4.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

220. Yes

I was reading something about how at a certain high-end fashion designer "J.Lo fits perfectly into our size two samples." I think J.Lo is gorgeous, but don't think those size twos are the same ones you can buy at Target.

[Pithlet]

165. I wish they would.

It's all so arbitrary. A size 10 in one store would fit like a size 8 from another. It's all very maddening. My husband can just walk into a store, pick up a pair of pants and look at the label, and know it will fit him without trying them on.

[pink-o]

339. This is truly a conspiracy!!!!

I'm serious! It's all about the economy, making women (the primary shoppers) buy more than they need.

Check it out: guys walk into a tailor, pick out a suit AND GET IT ALTERED TO FIT THEM PERFECTLY!!!!! After all, men's body images don't make the economy surge like ours do. What we get are clothes with arbitrary size tags on 'em, so we feel we have to live up to a certain standard. We should learn something from these guys, and DEMAND that the clothes be made to our specifications, not the other way around!!!

..Oh, and don't even get me STARTED on how women are treated by dry cleaners!:wow:

[LynzM]

201. I SO wish they would....

I have tried on jeans where within the same brand, "same" size, some pairs fit me and some don't. I have tried on jeans at the same store, different brands, where I can wear a 4 comfortably, but a 7 is too small. Frustrating as @#$#, let me tell you. There's a reason women spend so long clothes shopping, because we have to try everything on. They ought to make women's jeans with a waist, hip, and length measurement!!

[Nikia]

227. Not everyone has the same waist, hip, and length measurements

I am not pear shaped like many women. As a result, in many brands of jeans the waist is tight while having an excessive amount of space in the hip area. Tall and short women often have problems with length too. There is so much variation in body types. It would help to have more information than just a comparative number.

[Danmel]

295. Even thesame brand can vary

I ALWAYS try on everything because once I got two pairs of identical jeans at the Gap- same size, same "model" number etc. One pair fit and the other didn't. Go figure.

[liontamer]

28. unless she's really tall she's probably not a 16

most agencies classify plus size models as sizes 8,10,12 so I'm sure she's plus size by that defintion, but she'd only be a 16 at a few stores (generally those that size for juniors anyway)

[Phillycat]

29. See my post # 14.

[redqueen]

43. She was replying to it.

:crazy:

[gollygee]

215. She doesn't look like a size 16 to me either

Maybe a 14 .. . probably a 12.

[ChloeForKerry]

33. A 16?

oh please...... :eyes: she's beautiful and looks normal.

[Phillycat]

34. Just stating my opinion over here.

:shrug:

[tigereye]

74. yeah but you're a size 2!

just kidding. One of my best friends in high school wore a size 1. The rest of us just looked on in amazement. ;)

[Phillycat]

76. Hee!

I used to be much larger than this model. It was hard work getting myself back to a normal weight--I let myself go for a LONG time!! :) It's such a pleasure buying clothes now...

[tigereye]

83. but you can understand why people are so sensitive about

this sort of thing. I really don't like to see women who are average sized ( median) characterized as "plus-size" and I suspect women who are larger than average don't appreciate the term, either. Chico's has a good deal where the sizes are 0/1/2,etc.

[Phillycat]

85. Yes and no.

I don't really think of "plus-size" as an insult. "Obese" is an insult. "Plus-size" clothes used to be called "women's", remember? It was juniors, missies, and women's. It's just a stupid label being put on by clothing manufacturers.

I would say this, and this is my OWN arbitrary guide. MY OPINION, NOT ANYONE ELSE'S! :

0-super-skinny
2-pretty skinny
4-thin
6-thin with curves
8-curvy, average
10-probably getting some stomach and hip weight, still very average
12-more hips and stomach, starting to gain weight in upper body too
14-certainly overweight, still not "obese"
16-getting into unhealthy.

Now! These are for women of average height--5'3" to 5'8" or so. A tall skinny woman could easily be a 10.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

89. so that woman looks like shes getting into unhealthy to you?

i am a size 4-6 and i look exactly like her.

[Phillycat]

92. Are you very short?

I've seen your pictures and you are not skinny. You are very curvy. (You look great! You have a lovely body. That's not an insult.)

The only way I can see you fitting into a 4-6 is if you're quite short--like 5'0".

This girl doesn't strike me as being short. She looks heavy to me. I can't help my opinion.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

96. i am short...but thats not the point...

does the woman look unhealthy to you?

[Phillycat]

102. She looks like she is carrying extra weight that could become a

problem down the road, yes. She is quite young, she probably is in her early 20's. Weight gets harder to lose as you get older. I doubt she is unhealthy at this point, (it's almost impossible to kill a 22 year old of either gender, lol) but she could get that way if she doesn't take care of it now.

[NorthernSpy]

145. but losing weight would put her at risk for other health problems

In trying to get and stay skinny, she would put herself at risk for bone disintegration as she ages (osteoporosis is one of the costlier burdens on the healthcare system). And she would also wind up with a higher statistical likelihood of developing premenopausal breast cancer.

In my view, the girl in the picture would do well to live reasonably, eat normally, exercise moderately, and stay away from the eating-disordered and their kooky worldview.

I'm really not interested in trying to stamp out thinness, or fatness, or average-weightness. But I'd dearly love to put a big dent in irrationality -- especially the kind that creates pariah groups -- and the misuse of statistics.



(fixed: typo)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

130. also i am not at all insulted by being called curvy

i REALLY love curvy womens bodies...

[baba]

194. She looks heavy to YOU.

Because you're a size 2!

I'm just saying-some of this is a matter of perspective. If I was that model's size and shape I would be very pleased-that would be normal weight for me, somebody who is naturally curvy.

[American Tragedy]

353. I would argue that size 0 women can and do have curvy figures

Being petite doesn't necessarily mean that you're straight up and down.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

360. Ditto

I have curves and am 5'2, fairly petite. :shrug:

[tigereye]

109. well that's the irony of this Lioness

she looks fine to me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

116. i thinks shes hot,

i dont think she is in anyway unhealthy.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

100. Obese is a medical term. Plus-size is an insult

because for something to be "plus," there must be a "normal" to base that math on. When the average American woman is a size 14, plus sizes don't start at 12 (the size most plus-size models wear, btw). Calling 12/14/16 "plus size" incorrectly places the "normal" at about size 6.

Would you like it if your clothes were labeled "minus-size"?

[Phillycat]

103. Actually...

There are negative numbers in clothes now.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

265. I've never seen that, but in any case it's not the same thing.

Whatever their tags read, very small sizes are not separated out from average-size clothing the way plus-size clothes often are.

When there are separate "minus-size" sections in stores (separate STORES in some cases), and it's considered a separate kind of modeling, get back to me.

Fifty bucks says that if this ever DID happen, it would be to idolize the smallest sizes, not single them out in any negative way. If the extremely small sizes were given the negative connotation that the fashion industry has given even moderately large sizes, you might understand why a lot of us dislike the "plus-size" label.

[tigereye]

can't agree with ya, Jane

I would love it if clothing now called plus were still called women's. The clothing manufacturers appear at times to do these things for bizarre reasons of their own. Most women are 14s and I don't think they are "overweight," regardless of the recent changes in body-mass index, etc.

Just the opinion of one old guard feminist. We'll agree to disagree.

[Phillycat]

112. Okay. :)

:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

124. Thank you thank you tigereye.

:(

[Left Is Write]

236. In some stores, they are still called "women's" rather than plus.

[ChloeForKerry]

133. Oh my God

this is insane. I am floored you buy into this myth. :wow:

what a bunch of poop

[Dorian Gray]

286. Yeah,

it totally depends on height. I got really angry when a friend of mine said that a size 12 was HUGE! Uh, HELLO! I'm 5'10'', and I don't think that I'm going to be fitting into the size 4s that you fit into anytime soon. Of course, she was Asian, dainty, and about a size 2!

It doesn't help when you are thick-boned, either. My wrists are about the same size as my husband's wrists, and he's 6'5''.

So, while some people might think a size 12 is HUGE or unhealthy, for many of us, it's actually quite normal. Though, if I were ever to enter into the modelling world (FAT CHANCE!), I'd definitely be considered plus-size.

[Bouncy Ball]

132. No way she's a 16.

More like a 10 or a 12. Which would still, sadly, make her plus sized in the fashion model world.

Crazeeee!

[Left Is Write]

232. No way is she a 16. She looks like an 8 or 10 to me.

"Plus size" stores often use models that are not actually plus size.

For example, the Lane Bryant catalog frequently features women who are actually a size 6. When a contingent of customers complained that they, the customers, were not represented by the models, the store claimed that they had tried using plus size models but that catalog sales dropped. Apparently, using the slimmer models is a marketing tool that works.

[American Tragedy]

354. Ironic, considering the audience to whom the ads are ostensibly directed

[catmandu57]

15. She don't look like a marshmallow

to me. I like soft, she may have a little padding but she's not plus.

[StClone]

16. She's 6'4"

Maybe?

[gatorboy]

17. It reminds me of those interviews Kate Winslet had to put up with

after Titanic when they would ask how she felt about being fat. Fat??? I had a huge crush on Kate at that time and to me, she looked perfect! It's upsetting what's considered "The correct size" these days...

[stinkeefresh]

30. Kate is a luscious.

Yum.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

73. She is gorgeous

One of the most beautiful women in the world, IMHO

[La Lioness Priyanka]

138. she has an awesome body...i want it!

[last_texas_dem]

19. Funny

If she's considered a "plus" size, then my ideal size of woman is apparently a "plus" size. Not that there's anything wrong with that, anyway...

[democrat in Tallahassee]

24. they never show fat women even in ads for plus sizes

really pisses me off.

[FizzFuzz]

47. true, and 19 year olds in ads for "mature skin" makeup/creams

feh! Well, that's comsumer culture. Lie lie lie lie lie

[Cobalt Violet]

268. And they always show the perfect B cup in minimizer bra ads too.

[LeighAnn]

25. !

[Justin54B20L]

26. I definitely don't consider that plus size.

On a related note, thats an awesome Happy Tree Friends shirt!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

31. I hate to be a stick in the mud here

But that's what plus size is. Anything 10+ is plus-size, and so if she's tall and wearing a large shirt... she's plus size according to juniors sizing.

I have the most distorted perception of weight, but she looks a little heavy, not obese... but heavy.

[Phillycat]

32. I agree.

See my posts above. :)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

35. I totally agree with what you said

She's obviously carrying extra weight in her arms, face and hips. Does it make her obese? No. But it is enough where I'd say she is plus-size. Is that bad? Not at all, not if you like that kind of look, or if women that shape appeal to you.

[Phillycat]

36. Right, exactly.

No value judgements, and it certainly doesn't make her obese or unhealthy. But she isn't thin either. Is it bad to not be thin? Nope. Be whatever makes you happy.

[baba]

195. You are implying that her worth rests in what others think of her.

"If women that shape appeal to you."

Just by saying that you ARE implying that it is "bad." You're also implying that a person attracted to a woman her size (which is below average, BTW) would be in the minority.

Sorry you have such a narrow view of what constitutes attractiveness.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

208. Alright, yes, whatever. I am horrible, shallow, a bitch.

Not quite. I personally think her body is fine. I'm not attracted to women, and I'm not going to pretend I am. That's why I said if women of that shape appeal to you. I wasn't saying at all that it was bad, and what I've said in this thread proves that. Sorry that you implied the wrong thing.

[ScreamingMeemie]

106. That is wrong in so many ways.

:(

[ChloeForKerry]

38. I guess i don't get it

she looks heavy? Wow! that is distorted. Maybe you need to put down the Vogue mag and travel a little.

[Phillycat]

39. Excuse me.

Both LPFF and I have stated that we are NOT making value judgements against this woman or her weight. We are being honest about it, that's all. We certainly haven't attacked anyone else on this thread. I would hope you wouldn't personally attack anyone for their OPINIONS. Implying that we are shallow and obsessed with media is insulting.

[ScreamingMeemie]

105. To believe that a size 10 or above is plus sized is buying into the media

take on this issue. When it is somebody who is young, as in the case of LPFF, or my daughter for that matter, it is scary. A young girl who sees this woman as heavy has, in my opinion, a distorted and unhealthy perception of what is overweight. But I would never insult. I'm just worried about her.

[Phillycat]

110. I'm in my 30's.

And I agree with LPFF.

[ScreamingMeemie]

119. I'm talking about LPFF. Never has a size 10 been plus sized....ever.

That is so wrong, and unhealthy. I've never been under a size 8 in my life. I have also never shopped in a plus sized shop for a 10. People can wear a six or less and be perfectly normal and slender. This girl is slender by any definition. I've got to walk away from this thread now, because I cannot believe that so many have bought into that theory. :( I have to fight with my daughter on this on a weekly basis. Her doctor says she is underweight. Her size? A 10, and no it's not "because she is tall". How sick and sad. I'm sorry if I offend, but I can't help it.

Love,

From an obese size 10.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

40. Um, alright?

a) I don't read Vogue or any other trash magazines
b) You don't know me, so please don't attack me
c) I have traveled, and extensively, so don't pretend you know what I'm all about
d) Personal circumstances have led to my semi-distorted vision, but I still consider her a little heavy. We live in America, where everyone is heavier than the rest of the world. Maybe OUR vision is distorted. Heavy women shouldn't be glorified any more than thin women.

[ChloeForKerry]

48. Sorry if I offended you

But I think we need to change our attitudes in this country about size. Yes, there's a "huge" weight problem in this country, but there is also a disturbing rise of eat disorders as well.
I work with anorexics and weight distortions are disturbing to me.
I see girls everyday who are 80lbs and they think they're fat. Watching them struggle to eat a piece of lettuce.

This girl is of normal or average weight and yet you say she's looks heavy? again, I don't get it.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

62. I also have some experience in that department.

Like I said, you do not know anything about me. Thin women shouldn't be glorified, but neither should heavy women. I say she looks like she is carrying her weight unevenly, and being honest, I say she looks slightly heavy. I don't think there was anything wrong with what I said.

[NorthernSpy]

66. who was "glorifying" anyone?

Where is all this "glorifying" that you seem so bent on trying to stamp out? That is very puzzling. And you do seem to repeat yourself an awful lot.

Like I said, you do not know anything about me.

Wrong. Now, if you'd kept your dear little mouth shut, then you'd be quite right about this.

But. Once you have shared your opinion, the people within earshot do indeed know something about you. Your words, freely offered in a public discussion, are fair game for other people's commentary. If that's too much for you, then you might be happier if you talked less, or thought more, or some combination of those.

Finis. Let the sulking begin!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

69. Who's sulking? I think I've done a fairly good job defending my comments.

Take it or leave it. I'm a young woman growing up in today's world and I'm not some popular cheerleader vanity type. You DON'T know my personal life at all, neither does anybody else here. And there in glorifying going on in this thread. The only reason I repeat it so much is because I'm trying to get a point across. Listen, if someone had posted something like "Is this girl anorexic?" with a picture of somebody my size underneath it, and then the general consensus was yes... if someone came in and said, "No, I think she looks alright", they would get shot down. It seems like everyone is supposed to agree with everyone else's perceptions about weight, and because I happen to not agree, that makes me an evil person who hates fat women. I think there is a lot of hypocrisy going on in this thread, and people can shoot me down if they choose, I don't really care. I have been on these boards long enough that people know I state my opinion, think things through enough to be able to form an opinion, and I state it fairly well. I don't need to back down at the first sign of opposition. So hit me again, it doesn't really phase me.

But like I said, I leave my personal life out of these boards because it would be used to personally attack me.

I think it's ridiculous that on such a progressive message board, people are so opposed to dissenting opinions.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

270. HA! In what bizarro part of the universe are heavy women

glorified more than thin women??? If you truly think this happens, your vision is distorted indeed.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

301. They're not

But they are being glorified in places in this thread and that's not right either. Neither should be glorified.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

369. what's been posted in this thread that you consider glorification?

just curious.

[Bouncy Ball]

143. I don't get it either Chloe

I look at her and do NOT see extra weight or any chubbiness at all.

Dunno. :shrug:

Remind me never to post a pic of myself here and I'm "only" a size 12.

Sheesh.

[the Princess]

44. This is a new phenomenon

When I was young plus sizes started at size 16.

Size 10 is small - that's the most rediculous thing I have ever heard.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

46. Well, sizes have gotten larger.

A 16 then would be something like a 12 now. As Americans grow heavier, clothing industries are sizing up. That's how it works.

[the Princess]

49. No that is not what is happening

Clothing has gotten smaller over the years. As people in general get larger - clothing sizes are getting smaller. And smaller and smaller women are being told they are fat. It's about controlling women.

Being a size 0 means you are nothing. That's something to think about.

[Phillycat]

54. You are completely incorrect.

http://museum.nist.gov/exhibits/apparel/index.htm

[redqueen]

58. Click on "Vanity"

[CO Liberal]

101. No, YOU Are Incorrect

Clothing sizes have changed over the years.

What neither Jane nor the underpaid sales person realizes is that Vintage Clothing sizes are much much smaller than today's clothing sizes. Without getting into a really long explanation of the changes made in American clothing size charts during the last 50 years, let me say this...generally speaking, vintage clothing sizes run 4-6 sizes smaller than clothing sizes today. For example, I normally wear a size 4-6 in most everything ( dress, pants, skirts) but if I'm trying on a 50's dress, I need a size 12. Likewise, if it's a dress from the 70's, I can usually fit into a size 10. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. Get over the NUMBER Chica ! Sizes back then were much smaller, period.

If you don't believe me, take a look at a dress/clothing pattern from the 1950's. As a rule, they list the dress size with bust ( and sometimes waist size) on the front. A size size 12 dress will list the bust as 31-32" and the waist as 24". Now if you look at a current clothing chart or pattern you'll see that the same "Bust/Waist" measurements will say size 4/6. if you need even more proof, get your paws on an original Sears Catalog from the 1950's ( you can find them at large book stores) and feast your eyes on their clothing size charts.

http://www.justsaywhen.com/Vintage-101-Sizing.htm

[Phillycat]

108. Um. You are proving my point.

"Vintage Clothing sizes are much much smaller than today's clothing sizes".

That is exactly the same point I was making. Your wife is making the opposite point. She is saying that sizes are getting smaller. I am saying they are getting larger.

Thanks for backing me up. :)

[CO Liberal]

118. Wow - You're Wrong TWICE in One Thread

The article you linked to talks about how clothing sizes were standardized. It says NOTHING about how sizes have changed.

[Phillycat]

125. When you go to my link, click on "vanity".

You love to try to show people they're wrong, don't you? But you've now been wrong twice.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

131. Jane, don't waste your breath.

He will call you a child and uninformed anyway, and then ask if it's your bedtime yet.

:eyes:

[CO Liberal]

216. If You Wanted People to Click on "Vanity" From That Post.....

...you should have said that in the post that contained the link. All I saw was information that did nothing to prove your point.

[Phillycat]

135. Here, I'll make it really easy for you.

You seem to be very, very confused. So I'll quote directly from the posts, okay? Try to follow along.

The first post of this subthread said:

"Well, sizes have gotten larger. A 16 then would be something like a 12 now. As Americans grow heavier, clothing industries are sizing up. That's how it works."

Then your wife replied:

" No that is not what is happening. Clothing has gotten smaller over the years. As people in general get larger - clothing sizes are getting smaller."

Then I replied:

"You are completely incorrect." and provided a link to a website, which contains the following information:

"However, with the passage of time, the standard became outdated. Both American men and women were becoming heavier. Whereas the average woman's figure once came a little closer to approaching the hourglass shape of the fashion magazines, she was now becoming more pear-shaped, with a thicker waist and fuller hips. At the same time that the average woman's body was changing shape, manufacturers discovered the advantage of appealing to women's vanity. They began selling bigger clothes labeled with smaller size numbers."

Then YOU posted saying I was wrong, and copied and pasted text that included the sentence "What neither Jane nor the underpaid sales person realizes is that Vintage Clothing sizes are much much smaller than today's clothing sizes."

Which is exactly the point I was making.

All clear now?

[CO Liberal]

217. Make It Even Easier for Me, Janesez

Stop responding to my posts.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

218. A simple question...

If you didn't want a response, why bother posting anything at all?

[CO Liberal]

223. I Don't Post to Get Attacked

And some people here know nothing BUT attack mode.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

225. Hmm. That's interesting.

So, do you personally attack people? I'm just curious, because it seems quite ridiculous to call someone out for personal attacks when you may also be a culprit.

[Forkboy]

364. Always the victim

[sir_captain]

247. I'm really not attacking you

but you do realize that you were wrong, right?

[CO Liberal]

277. I Was Misled

Pure and simple.

[sir_captain]

305. How were you misled?

It all seemed to follow to me... :shrug:

[Phillycat]

279. YOU responded to ME.

I was posting in this thread, you replied to one of my posts by saying I was wrong, I showed you that I wasn't, and then you said you were "misled". What the hell?

[CO Liberal]

280. Your Post #54 Was Misleading

Period.

I have nothing further to say to you. On any subject.

[Phillycat]

281. Then stop replying to my posts!

You'll note I've never responded to any of yours.

[Name removed]

283. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phillycat]

284. Excellent! Now we're getting somewhere.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

61. No it hasn't

My mother is a size 8 now, and her size 8s from college are too small. Clothing sizes have gotten bigger. Being a size zero can mean a lot of things, but I don't believe it means a woman is nothing. A woman can be a lot of things, but she is never a nothing.

That's something for YOU to think about.

[ScreamingMeemie]

99. I'm sorry LPF, but I have quite a few of my clothes from the 80's and my

daughter who wears the same size (10 and definitely not plus size) swims in them. It depends upon the maker of the clothes. For someone so young, you are frightening me with your perception of weight. I'm going to start worrying about you now as well.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

115. Thank you, worry all you want, it's nice to know somebody cares.

Still, I'm content and secure with my opinion on this issue, and have more than a little experience with weight.

[ScreamingMeemie]

123. The wrong kind of experience in my opinion LPFF. You will never find

a size 10 in a plus sized department. I worked in retail. Please take care of yourself.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

129. Didn't say I agreed that it was plus size.

I just said she was slightly heavy. I don't agree with the labels thing. Like I said, clothing are just that. Labels. I don't think it's an accurate judge of whether somebody is heavy or not just based on the label.

[Pithlet]

134. MrsGrumpy is right.

It's good to be secure in your opinons, but it is not good to close your mind to hold on to one that you don't ato change. Size 10 is not and has never been a plus size. I worked in retail as well.

[Left Is Write]

235. Being size 0 means you are nothing?

What, exactly, does that mean?

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

239. Read post #61

"Being a size zero can mean a lot of things, but I don't believe it means a woman is nothing. A woman can be a lot of things, but she is never a nothing."

[Left Is Write]

242. Oh, I know I'm not a nothing - but

I wanted to know what The Princess meant. Did she mean that the manufacturers are telling us we are "nothing"? Did she mean that size 0 is too thin? I'm just interested in knowing.

Size 0 exists because manufacturers discovered that women like to buy clothes with smaller numbers on the tags. Sizes are numbers that ultimately don't mean much at all, especially because there is no standard.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

244. Well I can't say what she meant

But that comment was how I reacted to what "the Princess" said.

I don't think women who are a size zero are nothing, and though I'm not a zero, I'm still pretty offended because I wear a smaller tag size as well. So I'm almost nothing. Not quite there, but maybe I can strive to become nothing. :eyes:

[Left Is Write]

234. You are absolutely right that sizes have grown larger.

I have a pair of shorts that I bought ten years ago, size 4. They are the same size, measurements-wise, as a pair of shorts I have now that are size 0.

There didn't used to be a size 0. For a long time, the smallest size available was 2, and before that for years the smallest size available was 4. When my mother was a young woman, a 4 was unheard of. 8 was very small, 10 was small, and many woman aspired to be a "perfect 12."

The reason size 0 - and even some 00! - is out there now isn't because a large enough group of customers has gotten that much smaller. It's because sizes have gotten bigger. It's called vanity sizing. People feel better about a smaller number on the tag and are more likely to buy something that makes them feel better.

[Pithlet]

53. She is not heavy

I'm sorry that you're getting heat for that comment, but if you think that she looks heavy, then your idea of what heavy is may be a little bit skewed. We're all bombareded with images of very skinny women all the time, so maybe that is what is distorting the picture for some. I don't know.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

64. That's your opinion

My opinion is that she is carrying some extra weight and maybe her body shape plays into that a little, but she's not "thin" by any stretch. I don't think women of either extreme should be glorified, and a lot of people in this thread seem to be glorifying heavier women. That's hypocritical. Being too heavy and being too thin are both problems.

[tigereye]

77. I think people are trying to say that they feel that she is average

and that we tend to think of women who are not thin, as heavy or overweight. I think cultural perceptions of "heavy" and "thin" have changed markedly over time with increasingly thin body types being glorified in the media. And understandably, some of us who are "average"/median/what have you, 12-14--16, don't like being put in the plus size category. :)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

82. But clothing size is an inaccurate marker

People could simply be wearing a 12 because they are tall. I was basing my opinion not on her clothing size, but on her body. She is carrying extra weight, whether that makes her plus-size or not, I really don't care. That's just a label for clothing companies. I'm personally commenting on her body, not her label size. And to me, average has gotten heavier over the years. What is average weight now is not necessarily healthy (it can be, provided you exercise and eat right and you're still maintaining that weight), but what is desired weight these days is also not necessarily healthy.

[tigereye]

297. I hate to belabor this, Left

but the issue is perceptions of what is heavy and thin. I agree that the clothing sizes are a red herring in some ways. It bothers many of us that this woman is seen as "heavy" when we think she is normal, and I suspect that this discussion continues because we don't want any young women, or any women! for that matter, to think that all our years of picketing, complaining about sexism, trying to get women to feel ok about their bodies, will be for naught. ;) ( plus the effects of those horrible make-over shows!)

I agree that to be overweight can be unhealthy, but what is seen as overweight has changed over the years due to cultural and medical factors. I am going to shut up now. :)

[Pithlet]

117. No one is glorifying anything.

You are expressing an opinion yourself that that woman is heavy, and that is disturbing. If you think that woman is heavy, it really makes me wonder how much society really is influencing young women to have such opinions. It really is disturbing to see people looking at that picture and thinking she's "heavy". To point that out isn't glorifying anything. I think the fact that ultra-thin is being pushed down our throats leading to more eating disorders is a big issue. It is leading to more people looking at pictures of a perfectly normal woman and classifying her has heavy. That is a problem.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

122. You know what I find also equally disturbing?

When a thin girl is called "anorexic" or "a nothing" or a "stick" or "ribs" because she is just naturally thin. A few of the same people who are calling me out for saying this girl is slightly heavy are guilty of THAT. That's hypocritical, and I don't think it's at all fair.

[Pithlet]

146. You cannot call them out for doing that

After you did the very same kind of thing. You came into this thread with "Sorry to be a stick in the mud.." That indicates to me that you were aware of what you were doing. When you referred to the woman in that picture as heavy, you did the very same kind of thing. When people called you on it, you got defensive, which is natural. But, you can't go around pointing fingers at the behavior of others in this thread.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

147. Yes, yes I did. Thanks for proving my point!

That's what I'm trying to say. If it's OK for them to say somebody is a stick, why is it suddenly un-kosher for me to say somebody is slightly heavy? Seems like a wee bit of a double standard to me.

[Pithlet]

153. It is perfectly justifiable to call them on it

Just as it is to call you on what you said. That was my point. No double standard, there. It is hypocritical, however, to call them on it, after you said what you did.

I like you. I don't want to get into a flame war with you or hurt your feelings. I'm pointing out that I had a problem with what you said, opinion or not, and disagreeing with some of your statements, such as size 10 and above being plus size, for example. Also, you're posting those statements on a political message board with people of vastly different sizes, and we live in a social climate where anyone who isn't stick thin isn't considered attractive. Many people here much bigger than that woman in the picture will see what you said, and be hurt by it.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

156. Beauty is not based on size

At least not for me. I think Calista Flockhart is the ugliest woman in the world, and happen to think a lot of the woman on DU are gorgeous who may not be a "model thin" size are gorgeous. They shouldn't feel hurt by what I said, because I never said being slightly heavy was ugly. Your comment really doesn't make much sense to me, Pithlet. I said that 10+ was what is now considered plus size. I never said I condoned that decision or agreed with it, I just stated what is considered "Socially acceptable", not by me, but by others. Because that is what the original poster asked. If he wanted the answers to be the same, I wouldn't have bothered replying.

[Pithlet]

159. The term "heavy"

is what I think bothered some. That generally isn't considered a beauty asset, particularly for women.

As for the size 10 thing, I didn't think that was hurtful. I was only correcting you. In the years that I worked in clothing retail, size 10 was never plus size. Plus size was 16 and above. Now, in the modeling world, that is different. Women who model for plus size are usually around a size 12. But the clothes themselves are 16 and above.

[Djinn]

372. probably for the same reason

it's always been OK for the large women I've worked with over the years to say things like

"god you're even skinnier than you were last week"

"does your boyfriend like you being that skrawny"

"still got the anorexia thing happening"

If I had said to them:

"god you're even fatter than you were last week"

"does your boyfriend like you being that fat"

"still got the tub-o-lard thing happening"

The entire office would have stopped and stared at the insensitive girl. Yes society gives bigger women a hard time but it's not that easy on thin women either, because you have to be thin AND tall AND have big boobs which is almost impossible. To accept all (healthy) body shapes does not mean attacking the other

[Shakespeare]

126. Well said, Pithlet. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

94. Where does she look heavy? I am so sorry that you and so many young

people have been led to believe that anything over 10 is a plus size. Plus size in Department stores used to be 18 and up, then it was 16, now it's 14 and sometimes 12. I am sorry, but you are wrong. The average woman is a size 12. You, my daughter, and so many young girls like you both are scaring me with your thoughts on thinness.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

107. Sorry you feel that way

I'm the last person to buy into media distortions about weight, and if you saw my wardrobe, the person above might take back the hurtful comments about getting my face out of the Vogue magazine. I am telling you, not as a young girl, but as an adult, that I believe she is carrying extra weight for her frame size. I used to weigh probably more than that girl does, and it wasn't a fun time. I wore a 12, but I was definitely overweight. Sizes don't really describe whether a person is plus sized or not. Body shape and size that you see with your own eyes do. Sizes are just labels, but actual perception is a more accurate judge, IMHO. I'm sorry if my opinion on this issue brings down your general opinion on young people or on me, that was certainly not my intent, but I do believe she is slightly heavy and will not back down on that stance.

[ScreamingMeemie]

127. And I'm sorry to hear that because my daughter looks pretty much like

her and her doctor says she is underweight. This is where I get my impression. Nowhere did I accuse you of getting your opinion from Vogue, but I am concerned. I'm a mom. It's my job. I won't back down on my opinion either.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

136. You didn't

but another person did. Comments like that are hurtful, and I don't think I should be getting flack for a dissenting opinion. I think this message board is all about dissent, or at least it was.

Also yes, it is your job as a mother to be concerned about your child's weight, and I'm not debating you there. Never did.

[Bouncy Ball]

141. Plus sized

usually runs above size 12, not above size 10. Since when did 12 become plus sized? Damn.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

144. I'm not agreeing that it is plus sized!

I'm just saying that's what it has come to. Not saying I agree at all.

[ariesgem]

197. Size 10 is a plus size? That's new to me.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[the Princess]

55. Well aren't you a sweetheart

That was really offensive.

[ChloeForKerry]

59. Yeah, I'm sure he's Mr. America

:eyes: I just love how it's ok for men to be heavy, but if you're a heavy woman you're a "hippo".

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

65. Wow

I can't BELIEVE someone would actually say something like that.

[the Princess]

42. Oh for Goddess sake

That's just stupid

[gollygee]

51. I wouldn't call her thin, but I wouldn't call her plus-sized either

she just looks average size.

[sendero]

56. Just like Victorias Secret models..

.... are not representative of "non-plus-sized" women, this woman is not representative of "plus-sized" women.

Remember, the whole idea of advertising is to convince you "you could look like this if you wear our clothes".

[NorthernSpy]

57. her eyeshadow is plus-sized

The rest of her looks pretty average-sized for a post-pubertal young woman.

:shrug:

[Champ]

60. Not at all - In fact I think she is perfectly fine weight wise

Not skinny or big, right in between.

[dr.strangelove]

63. YES - WHO CARES!!

That girl is very attractive, but yes she is clearly a "Plus Size" according to that store. I have no doubt she is a size 14-16. Now I don't think I consider a size 14-16 to be "plus" but the store gets to label things however they want.

More to the point, who cares. She is beautiful. I'm glad the store is using a model who looks like a real woman. She is not some rail thin girl with size d implants. She looks great to me. I wish there were more stores using models that reflect what ctual women will look like in their clothes.

[tigereye]

78. actually women who have hips and curves

are now the models for store mannequins. I found that encouraging.

[Phillycat]

79. Yeah, they have mannequins with "ghetto booty" now!

I'm so glad, no matter how thin I get, my butt is still proportionally large for my body (guys seem to love it, heh.) So it used to be hard to find pants that fit everywhere else, but my butt would still fit into them, lol. Hip huggers are my friends!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

88. haha, same here

:D

[baba]

196. Again, that is just NOT true.

There is no way that woman is a size 14 or 16. I'm a size 14 and she is clearly thinner than me.

[Bethany Rockafella]

71. She's what you call "Thick".

But a full shot pic would have given us a better view.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phillycat]

81. Why in heaven's name are you personally attacking people?

We are not personally attacking YOU. And in my neighborhood (Philly) "thick" is a compliment. :shrug:

[ChloeForKerry]

84. why are you following me?

I'm not attacking, just merely stating the obvious. Now get over yourself.

Thanks for playing ;)

[Phillycat]

86. Calling someone thickheaded is a personal attack and against

the rules of this website. Please read them. You are new here, so you may not know that we have rules against personally attacking other members.

I am not following you, I am following the entire thread. I am responding to posts other than yours, as well as yours.

Please improve your attitude. You are extremely unpleasant, and you're brand-new. Hopefully you'll become nicer as you stay longer.

Welcome to DU.

[ChloeForKerry]

95. I've been here since 2002

just under new name. I know the rules. so alert on me and have it deleted if it offends you.

btw, I'm only unpleasant to your unpleasantness. And I'm very nice, just opinionated, you know, kinda like you.

Have a nice day :)

[Phillycat]

97. Where was I even remotely unpleasant to you?

Show me one place where I was unpleasant.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

87. Get over yourself?

When did we enter junior high school in this thread? Jane and I both also seem to have enough experience with weight and the like to have our opinions at least respected.

[ChloeForKerry]

98. I'm sorry you're so offended

just stating my opinion.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

157. I was just stating mine...

Then you personally attacked me without even knowing who I am, by insinuating I am a media whore and devote all my time to reading fashion magazines and keeping up with trends.

[ChloeForKerry]

162. I insinuated all that by saying

you must read Vogue magazine? It's not what I meant to imply.

However, I still disagree with your assessment of this model.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

163. Yes

I take a huge issue with someone who makes assumptions about other people. You made the assumption that I read Vogue based on my comments about weight. I say that I don't even read those types of things, that I am probably the person with the least amount of fashion that I know, and I am merely pointing out that to you so that you don't mis-judge who I am or use that false assumption in an attack against my opinions on weight.

[Bethany Rockafella]

309. Geeze. What did I miss?

[MissMillie]

72. Catalogs for plus-sized women don't always use plus-sized models

In fact, most of those catalogs don't use plus-sized models.

[AngryAmish]

75. yeah, she is pretty heavy

[Deja Q]

90. No, but that hair is from 1973 and that shirt is just tacky.

[guitar man]

91. Well, I don't know

...what the "standard" is, but she looks pretty average weight-wise to me.

Now, here is a "plus-size" woman for you. She's my plus-size woman, she was that way when we met 14 years ago. she is one beautiful woman and I wouldn't have it any other way.



I wish this country would get over it's obsesion with being skinny to the point of endangering health.

[curse10]

93. this is fashion we are talking about, folks

she's plus sized in that world. she looks heavier than some, less heavy than some.

[ScreamingMeemie]

111. She looks wonderful. She looks quite able to wear a bikini or swimsuit,

unlike many of the stick thin, starving women I see. We've got to save our girls...and it has to start now. This thread has truly frightened me. I worry about my daughter, now I worry about some fellow DUers too. :(

[ChloeForKerry]

151. It is truly scary

I am in shock some here think she's "heavy".

[NashVegas]

113. The Camera Adds 10 Lbs

So figure she's probably about 130 or so. 135 max. I have old pics of when I weighed that much, only my boobs were much larger than hers, and that was about a size 12, so no, she is not a plus size.

Plus = 16 and over.

[Beaverhausen]

114. My friend is the "fit model" for Hot Topic's regular sizes

She is a size six and she is very thin.

Have any of you ever seen a model or actress in person? They are painfully thin. Far thinner than they look on camera.

I think this model looks fine and in "real life" no one would think she is plus -sized, but compared to "regular-size" models she is a bit bigger.

[ariesgem]

202. I work with models here in Los Angeles and ones coming in from New York

For some reason, the LA models are a little "thicker" (sz 5 avg/5"11 in height) than the ones coming in from New York (sz 0/5"ll in height). The models that come in from Europe are gastly. NONE of these girls represent the average woman.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

241. size 0 at 5'11"... that's terribly thin, like a living skeleton.

How do these women manage to live? They must have 0% body fat.

[Nikia]

120. At my heaviest I looked fatter than that

I was wearing size 12 tightly then, probably was really about a size 14. Those are still not plus sizes.

[ScreamingMeemie]

128. I just found out tonight, here in this thread that I'm fat. Imagine that..

:hi:

[Pithlet]

139. And we're glorifying it!

Revil in the glory! :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

142. Woooo....freaking.....hoooooo! Let me try and find something on myself

to jiggle. ;)

[Pithlet]

149. After two babies

that wouldn't be too hard for me!

[ScreamingMeemie]

150. Me either, but MrG still likes me!

:hi:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

166. So do we

MrsGrumpy and Pithlet, I take this sarcasm as a huge insult to me. I haven't personally attacked you or anything about your weight, but you are taking what I am said in that way. I am literally crying right now because I don't know what else to say.

Whatever, I need to go study for a college final, and don't have time for this shit anymore. I won't be attacked because of my opinion anymore.

[ScreamingMeemie]

168. I haven't and wouldn't attack you ever LPFF. But I do find some of your

ideas on weight more than a little disturbing. As a woman who had issues and a serious problem with anorexia as a young woman, it truly frightens me to see some of these ideas. I also won't change my opinion, nor will I back down on this. I now know that there are many who would find me at size 10 or 12 chubby. That's disturbing, as I look pretty damned good in a bikini. Sorry you are upset, but that kind of hurt can go both ways. Think of the woman who is a size 14 and read the words "anything size 10 and over is plus size". If she has issues with her weight already, how does that make her feel. Good luck with your exams LPFF. It's not you I'm angry at. It's society, for making us women feel this way. :hug:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

172. Society hasn't made me feel this way

:shrug:

I just feel that she is not thin. If I get flack for that, I can take it, whatever. But I don't appreciate the blatant references to my arguments in the sarcasm Pithlet and yourself just used in that exchange.

To make it clear, I never said I personally believed size 10 was plus sized. I said that was what is now "considered" plus size these days, and think people read into it a little more than they should have.

[ScreamingMeemie]

175. Okay then, I have yet to see someone other than yourself say that that

is considered, consider it themselves to be, plus sized. That doesn't wash. Pithlet and I were having fun. I am blowing off steam. It's better sometimes than posting what I really want and getting myself deleted. Yes, I did find out tonight that you would find me fat. I don't see it as sarcasm. It would be the truth if you feel that the girl pictured above is heavy. How can that be sarcasm??? Weight is a serious issue among many women with poor self image. I struggle with my daughter, as I mentioned above, all the time. These kinds of threads and opinions go mega steps backwards in helping her to maintain a healthy self image. For she is truly a beautiful girl. Only too thin right now, at a size 10.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

178. But I never said being fat was ugly!

So therein lies the problem. I am saying, yes, she is sort of heavy. Is that a bad thing? Not really, if people are getting insulted by what I said about that girl, it's because they believe being slightly heavier is an insult. I don't think it is.

[ScreamingMeemie]

180. Just as I believe it is wrong to say someone is too thin, because it

is taken as an insult. She's a beautiful girl, up above, not heavy in the slightest. It's mainly the perception that this pretty perfect body would be considered heavy that bothers me.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

181. Your definition of perfection is different than mine

Everyone's is different. For some, it is desirable to be big and bulky muscle men. For still others, it is desirable to be curvy. For some, it is to be rail thin.

We all have different pefection levels, yours just happens to be different than mine. Is it required of me to believe that this girl is close to perfect? Because in my opinion, it's not. Nobody is perfect, or even near perfect.

[ScreamingMeemie]

183. I think when it comes to size charts and the selling of clothes...yes.

Plain and simple that isn't, never will be, and never should be considered plus sized. Sorry LPFF. It's wrong.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

184. Well I don't

Size charts and clothes sales mean very little to me, so I guess I don't see where you're coming from. In the fashion world, I guess she is plus sized. I don't feel *that* way, but do feel she is slightly heavy. If that is wrong, then I guess I can live with that.

[Pithlet]

189. I'm sorry.

But when you stated that some people in this thread were glorifying fat people, I found it funny. I wouldn't have said it if I had known you would take such offense. I honestly didn't intend to hurt you. Just as you say you didn't intend to hurt anyone by referring to the woman as "heavy".

[Pithlet]

188. I didn't intend to hurt or insult you.

You weren't the only one making statments about the girl in the photo.

[Nikia]

176. Sometimes people don't realize this

I remember instances when I finally started to get it. Whenever you call someone fat, you insult everyone who is heavier. Whenever you call someone ugly, you insult everyone who is less attractive. Whenever you call someone a faliure, you insult everyone less successful. Whenever you call someone dirt poor, you insult everyone who makes less money. I did this a lot in reference to myself when I was younger until I realized that I were hurting friends who were heavier, less attractive, or less successful. Maybe, I still do this occaisionally. I guess that when I finally do post my picture on DU I shouldn't entitle it "Here is the picture of me, the ugly freak."

[SarahB]

137. Not really.

She may be a little heavier than me, but not much (and I'm a bit bustier). I'm either a misses 8 or a juniors 9 (sometimes 11 depending on the fit). I'm in a healthy weight range, but not super-skinny. I'll never be a 0 or a 2 or even probably a 4 (maybe a 6 if I'd get myself to the gym, but that time and money I don't have at the moment, so I stick with lots of walking and a light free-weights), but that's ok. I don't have a problem with people thinking I'm attractive as-is. :shrug:

I was plus-size at one point- a definite 16 or 18. She's not that big.

[ChloeForKerry]

158. No, you're "heavy"!

Remember if you're not a size 4 and under your heavy.

/sarcasm

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

167. You're still gorgeous though!

I've seen your pictures, I've always definitely been jealous.

[SarahB]

171. You are too!

Small sizes do not mean a person is nothing by the way. :hug: I didn't like that comment either. I never understood why people can't defend their point without insulting someone else.

I wear about the same size now as I did at your age and I was so hard on myself then. Beauty comes in so many forms and sizes and we all love you and want to make sure that every young woman knows that in her heart since there can be so much pressure out there. We've all felt it.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

173. Definitely agree with you 110% on that note

I never said being that model's size was ugly at all, and I think a lot of people took it that way. For that, I'm very sorry. Beauty does come in all sizes, and I've been repeating that throughout this thread. :hug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

140. I just noticed the store,Hot Topic, which has an extremely skewed sizing

chart. I don't allow my daughter to even walk in there for anything other than their multi colored shoelaces because they are so wrong. Check out the chart. :hi:

[Bouncy Ball]

148. Uh no

she is not fat or even overweight. She looks wonderful!

(Note to self: Self, NEVER post pic on DU. I am a GASP size 12!)

[Book Lover]

152. And we wonder why the feminist movement lost its steam

The infighting on this thread is very depressing. To my eye, this woman is not plus size, because I am a real plus size (16/18). If you see this woman as a plus, I disagree with you, and I may even do so vehemently if the discussion gets heated enough, but this insulting is really sad.

Besides, I don't understand why we aren't freaking out over that horrible blue eyeshadow :-) Talk about fugly!

[ScreamingMeemie]

154. FWIW, I even raise my eyebrows over the idea of a 16 being plus sized.

The American Woman's self image is so messed up. :(

[Book Lover]

160. And I understand why (nm)

[Pithlet]

155. The hairstyle isn't much better.

But then, models usually don't have much control over those things in a photo shoot, so I don't feel so bad in commenting on them :)

[Book Lover]

161. I actually thought, except for the height of the hair

that it kinda looked kicky. Then again, the hair on the cheeks would bug the hell out of me.

[sonicx]

164. She's not plus sized, but i don't dig the hairstyle.

:)

[Kat45]

177. SIze 10 used to be the "ideal" size for women, the size that

women aspired to be. I can remember comments to that effect on TV shows, sitcoms--the wife might make a comment about a size 10. That was when I was growing up, in the sixties.

As for sizes changing through the years, I agree with that. When I was in high school, I wore a size 9. Most of those clothes are too small for me now, yet I currently wear a size 4-6. And the size of my body hasn't changed all that much in those years, maybe a couple of more inches.

Edited to add: I just looked at the store's size chart, and according to it, I'd be a size 3!

[HEyHEY]

179. Hubba hubba that's just the right size if you ask me

[JVS]

182. An agitator you are not. I was expecting something like "oink oink"

from a rabble-rouser such as yourself

[mwdem]

186. Tastefully done!

[barackmyworld]

187. Keep in mind that juniors and women's sizes are different usually

A lot of people are confusing THEIR women's clothes with the clothes by this manufacturer. Now, Juniors clothes are in a totally different department than women's. I wear about a 3 in Juniors, and I have to wear a 0 in women's.

What is "plus size" for Juniors is probably different than for women.

[gatorboy]

190. Yikes! I didn't want anyone to fight over this...

I just didn't think she was that big! But then, I like girls with curves! :D

[MrSlayer]

191. Yeah, she looks a little chunky to me.

Could afford to skip a sandwich.

[baba]

199. That's really sensitive.

I'm sure you are perfect looking. :eyes:

[MrSlayer]

200. Hey, It was an opinion question.

What am I supposed to do? Lie? That's what I think.

And yes, like Mary Poppins, I'm practically perfect in every way. :P

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

203. Heh

What am I supposed to do? Lie? That's what I think.

Yes. Obviously, you are supposed to lie.

[JVS]

206. My hat is off to you for having stuck to your guns

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

209. thanks

It had better be worth it, since I missed out on some valuable study time. ;)

[Pithlet]

212. Hey! I stuck to my guns, too!

Dammit...

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

222. You did!

:toast:

Good debate!

[Pithlet]

226. Cheers!

:)

[NorthernSpy]

219. beg to differ...

How does posting that you're "literally crying" count as "sticking to your guns", rather than as the ploy for sympathy and mollification that it more closely resembles?

Just sayin...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2230900&mesg_id=2232563&page=


:eyes:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

221. Because I care deeply about the issue, and cry...

That means I'm not sticking to my guns? Let's attack my personality some more, shall we? :eyes:

I cry not because I'm looking for sympathy, but because I like Pithlet and MrsGrumpy to the extent that I'd hate for them to think poorly of me after I expressed an opinion they did not agree with. Think about it, they're not close friends, but I know them on DU and would feel hurt if they turned their backs on me or something of that nature. Give it a rest, will you?

[NorthernSpy]

229. your personality is not the issue; your commentary is

I don't give a flamin' howdy-do about your personality: it's yours, and you're entitled to it.

If you're going to say things that might hurt and offend people, then why not just say 'em, and take whatever consequences are in the offing? That's the honest thing to do.

Give it a rest, will you?

Save the last word for you, eh? And yet you have more posts in this thread than I do.

:shrug:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

230. What're you talking about?

I am taking the consequences, aren't I? Is it wrong to care about an issue so much that you cry a little? Are you really that insensitive that you've *never* cried about something you care deeply about?

I feel very very sorry for you if that is the case. I'm a cryer, deal with it. I do get emotional, but I don't think that makes me unable to take consequences. Aren't I taking them right now by keeping active in this thread? If I didn't take it, wouldn't I have left?

[NorthernSpy]

237. just a little rule I live by...

Everyone has little rules like this, I think. One of mine is:

Offend people only if you must. But if you do, then offend them cleanly. Don't offend people and then try to get them to reassure you that they still like you. Softhearted people will oblige you, and the really softhearted won't mind. But it still seems kind of icky somehow.

Those who are offended are entitled to their honest reaction.

It is true that I'm not much of a crier. But there's really no need to feel sorry for me, though I thank you for the offer.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

238. I didn't try to get anybody to do that

I also didn't intentionally offend anybody in my original thread! You read into things a little too much. I state that I think the girl is a little heavy, and people think I am a terrible person for saying it. Then I stated I was crying later, and suddenly my sensitivity becomes a problem? :eyes:

Just chill out a bit, it's not the end of the world if I cry about something. I'm definitely a crier, it's in my nature. Can't change it, and wouldn't want to. I used to bottle up my emotions and that caused me great pain. I will not do that anymore and especially won't for an issue that I feel deeply connected with.

[JVS]

224. Didn't see that particular post, but nevertheless she has been made to...

defend her position to a far greater extent than is necessary over such a trivial question. This is not the Spanish Inquisition.

[NorthernSpy]

231. no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Seriously... If someone defends his opinion, it is only because he chooses to. No one can "make" him. And -- miracle of free will -- the minute he has had enough, he may stand pat.

We're all consenting adults here, good sir.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

233. If someone defends her opinion, it's because she chooses to.

And I do choose to stand firmly on this issue because I care about it. So JVS was making a simple compliment about it. There wasn't any harm in doing so. No need to burn more bridges than you need to, sir.

[NorthernSpy]

243. whatever might you mean by that?

No need to burn more bridges than you need to, sir.

That is a tautology. And even if weren't, it'd still be devoid of meaning. There is no "bridge" between me and the esteemed Mr. JVS -- who is almost certainly a wonderful person, but one I wouldn't know from Adam.

Unless you meant something else? That's the problem with cryptic utterances: they's so damn hard to make sense of!

Oh, and I should explain: I follow old convention of "one" and the universal "he". Some have tried to break me of this, and they have all failed. The remark you are referring to was about posters generally, not only about you specifically.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

245. I don't understand you at all.

I really don't, I'm trying... but you seem to be the only one that has a problem with what JVS has said to me. I'm sorry you feel that way? The original problem I had with what you said is that it inferred I had not stood my ground, when obviously I have.

You said:
"beg to differ... How does posting that you're "literally crying" count as "sticking to your guns", rather than as the ploy for sympathy and mollification that it more closely resembles?"

I think I've pretty much stuck to my guns this entire thread and wasn't expecting sympathy or mollification. But I guess you know more about me than I know about myself. :eyes:

[JVS]

205. Yes, you are supposed to lie

When a thread starts that says "does she look plus size?" it is the internet version of "do I look fat?"

Similarly when asking "Guys, how many years older than you is too much to date/relationship/etc." it is the internet version of "Am I getting old"

[Left Is Write]

240. Except the question was posed by a male.

So he probably wasn't subconsciously asking if HE is fat.

[JVS]

246. No, I haven't seen him post since.

He lobbed in the grenade and left. Strangely enough, those who stepped right into the question were female, too. But there definitely is a lot of the "does my butt look big?" mentality floating around this thread

[Left Is Write]

249. Well, how about this?

I know my butt is not big. I don't have any reason to ask anyone else if they think it is, and I think people would think I was strange if I *did* ask.

And I still don't think the girl in the picture looks overweight.

[JVS]

251. Good for you. You are secure. More people should be like you.

[Left Is Write]

275. Well, I'm not as secure as I could be.

But I've been working on it for years.

[JVS]

287. Keep up the good work

[Left Is Write]

322. Thank you. I've struggled with body image for years.

I had an eating disordder 25 years ago. I spent most of my teens and most of my adult life having a skewed view of myself, though I believe I have always been able to look at others realistically (and much more forgivingly than at myself). I think I have finally reached a place where I can see myself accurately and feel good about myself. I've also learned that women (and men) are beautiful in all kinds of ways, and that no one's beauty should be limited to a narrow social ideal. Beautiful people come in all shapes, sizes and varieties.

[TexasBushwhacker]

198. I checked out the rest of the plus size tops

and this gal is the smallest of the plus size models.

And if anyone wants to buy me the purple hoody for Christmas, the one with Eeyore on it that says "I Need A Hug", I would take a size a 2X. Just PM me for my address. Here's a link to the page. Thanks! :loveya:

http://www.hottopic.com/store/product.asp?LS=0&ITEM=264845

[Shadowen]

204. She's "normal".

In the anorexic, two-dimensional (literally!) world of supermodels, that's plus-size.

[BiggJawn]

211. Yum! What am I looking at?

Her curves....

[Doctor_J]

213. that's not a plus unless she's 6'1"

[proud patriot]

228. my husband was just commenting about this

How "women on T.V. used to look healthy , now they
look like they could break ."

[enigmatic]

248. Can I nominate this.....

for "The Most Ridiculous, Surreal Flame-war Thread" of the year?

[JVS]

252. seconded

[really annoyed]

254. You've Got My Vote

Nothing riles up men like fat women they despise. And yes, it's usually men. I know from personal experience.

I guess if I was seriously sick from not eating for months, I might get some appreciation. I might be sick, but hey I'm not FAT! :eyes:

[enigmatic]

257. Huh?

what ARE you talking about?

[Stand and Fight]

262. Yeah...

What are you talking about? If anything most people here, if not all, think the opposite of what is considered sexy (walking skeletons) are completely off base.

[really annoyed]

253. Ah, fat people!

It's a good thing we liberals still have one category of people we can beat up - but you know, in the spirit of "caring."

I'm "fat." And I don't have a problem with it. If you do, I don't really care. It's none of your business, really.

But please, if making fun of overweight women makes you feel good, by all means, GO FOR IT! :eyes: You can wrap yourself in liberal "tolerance," but never practice it. See, conservatives are right about some things....


Or you can take the "concerned" approach and get all medical about it...

[the Princess]

264. I'm with you

And I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about me - Hubby loves me this way and I'm a very happy he does! :)

Aint it great that we can still be made fun of by people who profess to be tolerant*?

LOL

[TX-RAT]

316. I love ya

Run the old man off and come to TX. He'll never find us.

[Lone Pawn]

258. She's not "thin," but she is hot.

I'd hit it.

[IronLionZion]

259. who cares? pretty women are pretty women

I'm such a sucker for curvy women especially with back and front.

[the Princess]

263. I made the comment about size *O* means you're nothing

Let me elaborate without starting a fight - I hope.

In our thin obsessed society women get all kinds of messages about how they are not *good enough*. In every way we are told we need to do this or that in order to be desireable. The biggest message is that we need to be skinny (the skinnier the better) to be desired by men.( not true by the way - having been a true BBW all my life I am here to tell you there are plenty of men out there who like the feel of a big body) :)

A question was asked of grade school girls a few years ago about being fat. They were asked:

"Would you rather be fat or lose an arm?"

90 some % said they would rather LOSE AN ARM than be fat.

That is so profound and so telling of what our society is doing to our little girls and so distrubing.

When I saw the picture posted and saw some of the comments I not only got angry but I became very sad. A girl who should be called *average* in her size is being called chubby - chunky - and fat. It's mind boggling. When I was a teenager all my girlfriends were the same size 11/12 and they were considered average. One friend was a size 7/8 and was made fun of for being "too skinny". What has happened? And let's not believe for a seond this whole obsessiion about weight is only about good health. No no no. This is about controlling women. This is a feminist issue. If you can keep a woman occupied with her weight - she will never realize her full potention as a human being.

The average size of a woman in this country is a size 14 - and yet sizes keep going smaller (now the goal is to be a size *O*) and more and more young girls are killing themselves to be thin.

My comment about the size *O* is this. *O* Zero means NOTHING. The desire to be a size zero could in the mind of a yong girl cause her to think she is NOTHING - she's a ZERO. The mind is a very complex thing. What some may see as just a size could screw up a child for life. I did not mean I think anyone who is a size zero is nothing - not at all. But psychologically speaking - being a size *O* could lead one to believe they are nothing. And that scares me. Considering how badly most young girls think about themselves anyway - this is just one more thing to add to the pile.

This thin obsession needs to stop. Being thinner doesn't automatically make you healthier then a fat counterpart. It just doesn't. In fact the ultra thin girls will find out later in life just how much damage they have done to their bodies by denying themselves the food and nutrition their bodies needed. It's a horrifying thought of how many women will have osteoporosis in the coming years simply from not eating anough. Not to mention teeth problems and so many more health issues.

*sigh* this is just too depression.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

272. Hmm

a) You still don't seem to understand the whole sizes are getting larger thing. It's vanity sizing, and whether you choose to believe it or not, it's out there and there are plenty of sources that will tell you about the size change. I don't really need to point those out to you yet AGAIN.

b) I'm almost 18 years old, grew up during the 90s, and have yet to hear a girl EVER say she "wants to be a size zero". Most girls in my class want hips and curves, and a stomach that is decent, "average" I would venture to say. I suppose some girls think in sizes, but a majority don't. They think in terms of what looks good and what will make them look slimmer. There's no debating that. It's not bad to CARE about your weight. Just like being a bigger woman doesn't constitute something like "she's a pig and eats exorbatant amounts of food every second of her life and doesn't exercise!", there are thin women who aren't starving themselves to be that, and that's what I think people don't understand. I have a friend who weighed less than 100 pounds up until last year, and she ate the most out of anybody I'd ever met. She just played a lot of sports and was a superstar athlete. She confessed to me crying one day that she wished she could just gain 5 pounds so people would stop teasing her about being THIN. Yes, it happens, whether heavier people want to believe it or not. I myself have been a victim to it, and I am not even close to being as thin as she was!

I'm off to school, but I hope you understand that in no way do we who said this girl was marginally heavier think that is a bad thing! We never said it was. Perhaps because we ourselves are thinner than that girl is, we feel uncomfortable in saying that she is the slimmest person alive? So we speak it like we see it. A heavier person than she would say she is close to their version of perfect. I say nobody is perfect. Including you or I.

[American Tragedy]

355. I have to agree

I moved out of the dorms last year in part because a number of girls perpetuated embarrassing rumors that I had an eating disorder, which became so pervasive that mental health services actually started to monitor me. What really frustrated me about it is that these people all saw me eat every single day, and I eat plenty, by anyone's reckoning. Trust me.

Yet among my family I'm not considered to be thin at all, since my parents and siblings are all skinny, generally more so than I am. My grandmother ate fried chicken and rich southern cooking her whole life and rarely even reached 90 lbs.

Judgments of thin and heavy are all relative, which is why I don't even try to classify anyone.

The gradual size inflation is irritating, too; I first noticed it when I started collecting vintage dresses. I definitely wish that clothing manufacturers would standardize sizes and base them on actual measurements so that I don't have to try on every single damned thing that I like.

[NewJeffCT]

276. I think it's more acceptable to be a little heavy these days

A lot of girls want the big "J-Lo" butt these days and it is becoming more acceptable for people to be heavy, or at least chubby. That was not something that was acceptable in the 70s & 80s. There are also more heavyset women on TV than their used to be. We have television shows telling heavyset people that they are okay and how we should accept them in society. In the past, it would have been that we should tell the heavyset people how to lose weight and that it was not okay to be heavy. I don't recall a lot of specialty stores for heavyset women in the local malls in the 80s, but that is common now, as is the "Women" section in large department stores.

That said, the top "sexy" movie stars of the 90s and today are generally a lot more toned than they were in the 1950s & 1960s. However, that goes for males & females - I don't recall seeing too many men with washboard abs & rippling musculature in old films. But, people realize that these stars now have full time personal trainers who tell them what to eat, how many hours a day to exercise, etc. And, many of them also have plastic surgeons that can suck out excess fat, enhance certain features, etc.

[ScreamingMeemie]

288. If J-Lo's butt is big, then a lot of women are in trouble.

:hi:

[NewJeffCT]

291. they try to hide it in movies

But, if you see her in pictures where it isn't staged, it is quite large compared to the rest of her.

[ScreamingMeemie]

292. My brother had the misfortune of working on Gigli. He said she is

pitifully thin, with a padded "butt". :hi: That butt ain't big. Roseanne's butt is big.

[Phillycat]

293. J-Lo's butt is ENORMOUS, in proportion to her body.

Look at this picture:


Now, she's got a great ass. All men love J Lo's ass. But it's BIG.

[ScreamingMeemie]

296. My brother says it's tiny, and enhanced for pics.

:hi: It looks tiny there when you compare it to truly large derrieres

[NorthernSpy]

300. you're imposing Caucasian norms on a non-Caucasian person

Lots of physical characteristics vary with ethnicity. Ass size, limb length, eye shape, nose size -- lots of things. Ms Lopez's bottom might be big for a person of, say, Japanese descent, but so what: she isn't a person of Japanese descent. She's Dominican, I believe, and I'll bet that her rear is a perfectly ordinary size for one of her kind.

Believe it or not, the norms you suscribe to are not universally applicable.

:eyes:

[Phillycat]

306. Nope, sorry.

I'm of an ethnicity that also has disproportionally large asses, and I am telling you, J Lo's butt is BIG.

No caucasian norms included. Just my opinion.

You'll note that I said she's got a great ass.

[NorthernSpy]

310. a person could be of any ethnicity...

... and still rely upon Caucasian norms in judging the size of Ms. Lopez' bottom.

You must not be so quick to infer that which is not implied.

[Gemini Cat]

269. She looks okay to me.

:shrug:

[China_cat]

271. Size 10 is now considered a 'plus' size.

When I was in school a 10 was what we all aspired to be (long before the movie). Size 8 would have been nice but was usually unattainable unless you were sick.

[ScreamingMeemie]

289. Can't find a size 10 in Lane Bryant or any of the plus size spots in the

department store, so I disagree. No wonder our girls our starving themselves.

[China_cat]

298. It's carried

here at Catherine's Stout Shop and the Big Woman's Store. True, these are local places and not national but I've also seen a designer on tv who when asked why her clothes couldn't be found in anything over an 8 said 'I don't design for fat people'.

Artigiano includes size 8 in its large sizes. "Bodacious caters for curvy figures, size 10-24". More to Hug - (USA) clothing in sizes from 10 - 60.

[ScreamingMeemie]

315. I went to the mall today, and checked just for my own self. Nope,

no size 10's. It's getting ridiculous if stores in your area are doing that.

[baba]

342. Who is that designer?

I want to know so I can avoid buying her clothes (not that she makes my size anyway, LOL) and ask my friends to avoid her clothes as well!

[China_cat]

367. Trying to remember

anything but being totally pissed at that statement. She was fairly young, dark haired, and had an accent. (As if that's any real clue)

Sorry.

[Nikia]

303. I was size 12 for a while and never bought that plus size

I admit that I wasn't looking for size 12 in the plus size or women's section because I thought that buying clothes in the plus size section would mean that I was fat. I generally shopped in department stores and always found size 12 clothes hanging on the racks with the smaller sizes. This was a couple years ago. I believe that they are still there. When shirts in the misses or even juniors are marked by S-L in the normal section, 12 fits in there too.

[Phillycat]

278. Wow, this is still going.

There were three people on this thread who thought the girl was heavy, carrying extra weight, whatever you want to call it. All three of us were violently attacked for our OPINION. There was a question in the original post, we answered it, and then were told in no uncertain terms that our OPINION was wrong. How can it be wrong if it's our opinion?

There are lots and lots of people on this thread who do not think the model is heavy. So why is it such a threat that three people disagree with you, when the majority agrees with you?

I thought a lot about what provoked the angry response I got in answer to my posts. And I came to the following conclusion:

When I was heavy (oh yes, I was heavy), I used to look at a size 8 girl and think, "God, I wish I could be that thin." It seemed like an unattainable goal. Now, I look at a size 8 girl and think, average. It's all about perceptions. So if some of you opened this thread and saw that model and thought, "I wish I could be that thin" and then I came along and said, yes, I think she's a little heavy, you thought, "Then what does that make me?" and reacted angrily, as if I was personally attacking you, which I wasn't. Perceptions.

[NorthernSpy]

304. since we're psychologizing...

When I was heavy (oh yes, I was heavy), I used to look at a size 8 girl and think, "God, I wish I could be that thin." It seemed like an unattainable goal. Now, I look at a size 8 girl and think, average. It's all about perceptions. So if some of you opened this thread and saw that model and thought, "I wish I could be that thin" and then I came along and said, yes, I think she's a little heavy, you thought, "Then what does that make me?" and reacted angrily, as if I was personally attacking you, which I wasn't. Perceptions.

Or perhaps those who are calling the girl fat are driven to provoke people because they need to convince themselves that hunger -- which has both physical and (very characteristic) emotional effects -- is worth it. After all, all those fatties out in cyberville must be jealous, right? Gotta feed on something...

Really, now! Your suppositions about other people's "perceptions" seem more than a little self-serving, no? I dunno why on earth you would want to go there, exactly.

[Phillycat]

307. I'm not hungry.

I eat like a horse. Why would you assume I have to starve myself to be thin?

[NorthernSpy]

308. never said you were

That's the beauty of psychologizing in general terms. You get to imagine all sorts of things about no one in particular.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

326. Really?

"Or perhaps those who are calling the girl fat are driven to provoke people because they need to convince themselves that hunger -- which has both physical and (very characteristic) emotional effects -- is worth it"

You said it.

[NorthernSpy]

328. speculating in general terms...

... is not the same thing as making a declarative statement about a specific individual. You didn't know that?

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

332. So I guess you're right if you're going by the statement you said.

Jane and I, pretty much the only people who called the model heavier, never called her "fat", so I'm guessing your general terms do not include us? Please let me know if this is wrong, so that I may fix the error of my ways and bow down and worship your greatness.

[NorthernSpy]

347. at last!

Jane and I, pretty much the only people who called the model heavier, never called her "fat", so I'm guessing your general terms do not include us?

I was wondering when one of you would notice that! And yet y'all just kept on replying as though the shoe fit...

:dunce:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

325. Wow, that's not true at all!

Are you assuming those who called her bigger are anorexic and starve ourselves? If so, you are quite wrong. I agree with Jane's statement. When I was pushing out of a size 14 I used to think "A size eight is the slimmest I can ever want!", but now that I'm a size 5/7 (4/6 in women's) after not starving myself, but actually working hard at it (weight watchers, actually), I see the size 8 as average. I don't think you quite understand that it IS about perceptions. Jane and I obviously don't feel comfortable in calling a woman who is obviously bigger than we are SLIM. So she is a bit heavier than we are, and that's based on our perceptions. To a woman bigger than the model, she probably thinks as I used to when I was big. It's all about relative perceptions.

[NorthernSpy]

329. and speculating about another person's hidden psyche...

... is not same as actually knowing anything about his state of mind, or why he reacts the way he does. That was my point, and I made it in reaction to Janesez' unwarranted attempt to read the minds of those who find her commentary distasteful. You might have grasped that had you tried a bit harder.

One thing that I will declare about you and Miss Jane is that you haven't shown yourselves to be careful readers.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

331. Thank you

Your opinion of my reading skills really means nothing to me, but I appreciate you telling me that. :eyes:

By the way, you also don't read carefully. I suppose we have something in common.

[NorthernSpy]

333. what am I supposed not to have read carefully?

And was it anything that merited reading at all?

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

334. You're still keeping this going

I just find that absolutely hilarious. I gave my opinion and have literally exhausted it on this thread. You're not going to change anything by keeping the fight going, or haven't you realized that already? Should I spell it out more clearly?

[NorthernSpy]

345. Save the last word for you!

...to steal a phrase from someone I know.

I'm keeping this going? Whaddaya call what you're doing?

If you post something, I really do get to reply to it or not as I choose. That's how it works. If you post nothing, then I won't be able to reply to you. It's your call whether you post, and it's my call whether I post. Can't spell it out any more clearly than that.

I just find that absolutely hilarious. I gave my opinion and have literally exhausted it on this thread. You're not going to change anything by keeping the fight going, or haven't you realized that already? Should I spell it out more clearly?

If you've "literally exhausted" what you have to say -- and I'm inclined to agree that you have -- then why do you keep responding to what I write? Do you want the much-coveted Last Word, perhaps?

If so, then maybe I should just make a gift of it to you, and have done with the whole thing.

Or maybe not...

[mairceridwen]

341. It's not about perception, it's about statistics

Stastically speaking, the average woman is a size 14.

You are pushing your anorexic ideal on the world if you go by your own size to measure everyone else. That is fucked up. I was willing to agree that you guys were attacked until you implied that anyone over a size 8 is ABOVE AVERAGE when statistically it is not true.


I agree that the woman may not be plus size, but has a little extra weight on her arms, maybe her tummy, and on her face...but she's not plus size.

I was once a size 14 and now I am a size 10, and I still think the average size is a 14.

I'm bigger than you, and consider myself slim, but a little curvy. But you would say, "no mair, compared to me you're fat.

How do you think that makes me feel???

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

359. My anorexic ideal?

Choose your words a little more wisely, and maybe I'll have more respect for your argument. I never said that above 8 was above average. It seems like you do not know the first thing about anorexia or eating disorders. Do not speak to me as though you do. I said that based on how MY body is, anybody who is that size is obviously heavier than ME. It IS about perceptions, and so when you put it into my perspective... I have trouble calling a girl slim who is larger than I am. So is that wrong? Yes I suppose maybe it is, but that's how I view the girl. If the opinion was not needed, the question shouldn't have been originally posed in this thread. I never made remarks about her personality, or even that being heavier than me is bad or ugly. A lot of assumptions were made about this

Also, I never called anybody fat, so please do not assume I would call you that. You have no idea what I would or wouldn't say. In fact, I never really comment on people's weights, except in this thread because that was the question posed. If I was not supposed to answer the question truthfully or give my opinion, I wouldn't have bothered responding.


"I agree that the woman may not be plus size, but has a little extra weight on her arms, maybe her tummy, and on her face...but she's not plus size. " - You

I agree, that's what I said in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2230900&mesg_id=2231273&page=. She is plus-sized by clothing industry standards, and so that is what I was trying to say. If I somehow implied that I personally believe she is plus sized, then I'm sorry for that.

I think people are making a huge deal out of somebody's opinion. Never, in the three years I've been on this board... has my actual OPINION ever been attacked. My approach to the opinion or my argument, yes. But the actual opinion? I thought this message board was MEANT for dissent. Apparently not.

[mairceridwen]

363. well if it is all about perception

YOUR ideal of size 4/6 would leave me bony and gaunt. I know PLENTY about eating disorders

I wouldn't call that girl slim. I wouldn't call her anything except maybe curvy, with a roundish face and full arms. I have no problem calling people who are larger than me thin. That is just fucked up. There are people who are larger than a size 4 or 6 who are slim. I am, but you would not think so. I suppose that doesn't matter, but going by YOUR size, YOUR size "4/6", is my anorexic body.


I don't determine if people are average or not based on my body, but on the many bodies I see walking around. It is far more average to be that woman's size than a 4 or a 6. She also looks smaller than I am, but differently shaped.


So yeah, I think you would say I am large or heavy. And as someone who has struggled with eating disorders for a long time, that really sucks. Especially here where people are supposed to be able to think outside of themselves.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

365. Oh, I don't disagree with you

As someone who has struggled with eating disorders for a long time, that really sucks.

Yes, yes it does. But then again, that's what my mind sees. That's not really my fault.

[mairceridwen]

366. whatever.

Edited because I am tired of being snarky and oversensitive

good night everyone, fatty mcblobicus is going to bed now

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

356. I think I'm what you'd consider to be an average sized woman,

yet I still do not perceive that woman to be even slightly heavy.

That's just my perspective. :)

[RUDUing2]

282. believe it or not in modeling anything above a size 8 is considered plus

size.. to give you a better idea of what this means...a size 8 measurements are as follows:
bust: 35.5 inches
waist: 27 inches
hips: 37.5 inches



According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the average U.S. woman is 5' 3.7 (162 centimeters) tall and weighs 152 pounds (69 kilograms). Which means according to designers, etc the average US woman is plus size...

[Amaya]

285. This thread just goes to show you that

WE all are very obsessed with what's on the outside.

Also, I think the word "heavy" or "plus-size" suggests the person is lazy and not as desirable. It's what society has brainwashed into the masses. Anyway, I think that's why so many people took offense to this thread.


Just my 2 cents. :) And no, I won't give an opinion on her weight. It's silly.

[Jessica]

299. Agreed.

And for the many women out there who maintain a constant struggle with their weight & self perception, the labels "heavy" and "plus size" can be hurtful.

That's just my opinion, though. As I read through these posts, I was shocked that some believed the model was slightly heavy. But, that is their opinion as well. And I agree with janesez - some of the responses might have stemmed from some feeling indirectly attacked. I understand this because when I read the comments about the model being heavy, I thought, "If SHE'S heavy, WTF am I??"

But, I agree with you Amaya - in the end it all comes down to the fact that society has pushed these labels on us. And the sad thing is that young girls, some EXTREMELY young, are suffering terribly because of it. It shouldn't be that way - because "thin" or not, we should all be able to like ourselves.

[rolltide2005]

290. ..

[LuCifer]

302. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!!??!

Dude, she's skinnier than I AM! And I'm 6 foot and 145 lbs! I'm borderline Beverly Hills model for shitsake! IF THAT CHICK IS "FAT" THEN LAURA FLYNE BOYLE IS AN ETHIOPIAN!!!!!

FUCK HOLLYWOOD!

Lu
http://www.LU13.TK
http://www.MidnightCalling.com

[RUDUing2]

311. well according to todays standards Marilyn Monroe is a plus size model

she was 5'5 and 135 lbs and wore a size 12....

think about that for a moment...Marilyn Monroe would have to play *fat* roles if she was an actress today.....

[Phillycat]

312. That is a fallacy, actually.

http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/mmdress.htm

It says that at the EXTREME of Marilyn's weight, she would have been a 12. But dress sizes have changed (gotten bigger) drastically in the ensuing years. Vanity sizing.

[RUDUing2]

314. put it this way...I am 5'4, 134 lbs and I wear a 10 or 12 off the rack...

so if she was 5'5 and 135 lbs she would wear a todays size 10 or 12 off the rack (talking Walmart, Target, etc)..
Monroes normal/average weight was 135-140 lbs...her official studio measurements were 37-23-36...

and if you go to model sites you will find that anything over a size 8 is considered plus size...


http://www.fordmodels.com/content.cfm?content_id=6&client_id=&client_email=
Does Ford work with plus-sized models?
Yes, the plus-sized division works with women between the heights 5'9" and 5'11" (175 cm and 180 cm), sizes 10 to18, and between the ages of 15 and 30.

[Phillycat]

317. This is from the link I posted:

Marilyn's weight range:

Height: 5 feet, 5½ inches
Weight: 118-140 pounds
Bust: 35-37 inches
Waist: 22-23 inches
Hips: 35-36 inches
Bra size: 36D

That was the range of her sizes. I have no doubt that at the height and weight you posted, she would be a 12 by today's standards. But she varied a lot (I'm sure it didn't help that she was a pillhead and used to starve herself for roles and then binge-eat when the films were in the can.)

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

358. How did that woman manage to have a 23 inch waist and

be 5'5" and 135lbs..even 118lbs?

That's a mega small waist! Her breasts must have been very heavy.

[Nikia]

368. See my comment below

I am that height, am under 120, have a chest/hip measurements that are maybe an inch smaller, and have a waist at least a couple inches larger.
Some people carry a fair amount of weight on their limbs while others don't. Some people who lift weights, although I'd be suprised if Marilyn did this seriously, weigh more than they seem like they would.
It is also possible that these are enhanced measurements. One sees this on athletic rosters all the time: heavier football players, taller basketball players, and such. Her waist might have really been bigger but 37-23-36 looks much more impressive than 37-28-36 doesn't it?

[Nikia]

321. I'm close to those measurements and am under 120 now

Same height. My waist is a little bit bigger too. Size 12 literally falls off of me. Size 5-6 or 7-8 fit me depending on brand and cut for jeans. I am wearing medium shirts without them being too tight. I tried on my size 5 dress from high school prom and it fits.
Of course, I am a freak, my arms and legs look like sticks and you can clearly see all my ribs so that's perhaps why I weigh less while having a little fat on my waists and chest. My hips don't have much fat, I am only that big because of my pelvis bones.
I should also add that I am only this thin because I have been having a digestive illness which caused me to lose 15-20 pounds. If I start eating regularly again, I will have to start running again to maintain my weight which is something I want to do anyway. I am not sure if I like being this weight or not, but have gotten used to it again. I just wouldn't want to lose any more weight until I know that I can eat enough to gain weight.

[baba]

344. That's probably right.

Marilyn Monroe was 5'5" and 135. Renee Zellweger gained at least 20 lbs. for both Bridget Jones movies. I think she is about 5'5" and was probably between 135 and 145 in those movies. Bridget is supposed to be a "chubby" woman.

[gatorboy]

313. Oy! My first thread in the lounge is a powder keg!

I honestly didn't want that to happen. I simply thought this beautiful girl looked average size.
When someone says, "We've made a special plus size section for you" I would assume the sizes would be way out of the ordinary. Perhaps something that would have to be custom made to compensate someone's weight. But when I saw this young girl in the plus size section, I was pretty surprised!
But I'm also not saying that anyone else in the plus size is not normal or beautiful. Far from it.

In fact, this girl's a cutey!



But I wouldn't consider these girls to be so extremely overweight that you would have to make an entire section of your web page just to point it out. Why not just put these models in with the others instead of saying, "Hey look! We have a section just for you ladies that we can't catagorize with the other women!"

And I still don't think the first girl I posted is a plus size! She's perfect! To me anyway...:D

[crispini]

318. Oh, don't worry about it, gatorboy.

There are certain topics that are just guaranteed to set off a chain reaction powderkeg thread, and guess what, you just got one! :D

[gatorboy]

319. And my first Lounge thread to boot!

Sometimes I grumble to myself about not getting much traffic in my threads. I think this had made up for it. :P

[enigmatic]

320. Don't worry about it..

The more I read this thread, the more ridiculous it becomes.

They both look fine to me, and I think Kate Winslet is a hottie, too.

[ScreamingMeemie]

323. It's that particular store, gatorboy. If you are not a size 2 there, you

are plus sized. If you have boobs whatsoever you cannot shop there. Hot Topic is the very sleaziest kind of store geared towards our kids. Well, next to Abercrombie and Bitch they are anyway.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

327. I hate Hot Topic, I only go in there for stickers and patches.

As for A&F... I have never tried on clothes there because the larges look like they'd fit my 3 year old niece!

[ScreamingMeemie]

330. Agreed. I let my daughter get shoelaces ( the funky striped kind) there.

Plus, somehow I think a 14 year old wouldn't look right in a black bustier. ;)

I love the bunny stickers!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

335. Yeah, they are cute!

The main problem I have with Hot Topic is that it tries to imitate the 80s punk scene but fails miserably. That scene was all about Do-It-Yourself clothing and all that, and Hot Topic has commercialized it to an extent that it's lost it's original meaning. They have some cool band shirts, I think I got both Beatles shirts, and The Smiths shirt I have there, but otherwise... everything is pretty much junky and overpriced there. :(

[ScreamingMeemie]

336. I gave my daughter all of my old concert T's. You are right in the

falseness of it. Even the clerks at our local store attempt and don't quite make the grade for 80's style punk. DEB has some great Rolling Stones hoodies right now. I bought one for my daughter.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

362. ooh, thanks for the heads up

A trip to DEB might be in order. I'm not a fan of their clothes (most of them are all pink, and i think the pink quota in my wardrobe is full up...), but would like to check out those hoodies! :D

[Dastard Stepchild]

324. Nope... but the shirt does her little justice...

In a nice fitted shirt however - shazaam!

[TexasLady]

340. Can we start a thread on wrinkles?

I am a weight fighter(SAME DAMN 20 POUNDS). But after hitting forty and closing in on my own mortality a bit, it's the sagging boobs and wrinkles that replaced my weight issue. I have a feeling that as I accept that part, then the wrinkles and stretch marks and such wont matter as much either. When Im seventy, Im thinking I will have other stuff that I will worry about. Like being happy I woke up?

Never mind the wrinkles thread. Gettin old is something we all get to do. dammit.


hi yall :hi:

[mairceridwen]

343. ok

[48pan]

348. She's a 10/12 - Not a plus. nt

[personman]

357. IMO

She is carrying a little extra weight, she has what I would call "big girl arms". I don't think she's fat, I would say she's about average. However, average does not equal "peak physical condition".
Either she benches 300lbs or that's not muscle on her arms.

I see alot of "Geeze if you weigh more then 90 pounds your considered fat" or "You have to be a stick to be considered attactive", thats kind of a "Crossfire" arguement IMO. I think she could lose a bit of weight and still not be 90 pounds or "stick thin".

It's possible I'm biased here because I'm a pretty skinny guy, 5'10" 150lbs. (but I'm also just geneticly small, my wrists measure 5 3'4in)
But I don't think so. Some of you might consider me stick thin if you saw me, but I eat pretty well and workout alot. Some people have weird genetics, everyone is different.

-personman

Edit: I noticed I kinda ranted and didn't really answer the question, IMO she's borderline.

[sakabatou]

361. The Tee may be polus size.

The model isn't.

[annonymous]

371. No, she appears to be size 10.

I am about the same size. I don't think much of the hair though.