My 2 cents on the whole Jesus thing.

[Flammable Materials]

While Democrat Christians wax indignant about the unbelievers in their own party, the Republicans are walking out of the room with Christianity tucked firmly under their arm.

Why liberal Christians get more offended by what unbelievers do or say than they do by the hijacking of their faith by the fundamentalist right is beyond me. If it comes down to taking sides, would you prefer to side with the likes of Mike Malloy, or the likes of Pat Robertson?

I am a former Christian and recovering fundamentalist. I am "former" in that I no longer hold to a belief system. This doesn't mean that I'm anti-Christian. I think the teachings of Christ are highly commendable, and I wish that Christians would try harder to live by them. (Particularly that whole "forgiveness" thing.) Jesus didn't spend his life getting offended at worldly people. In fact, the only time he really lost his temper was when he saw crass commercialism taking place in the temple of God. Jesus was the original "seperation of church and state" guy when he refused to get involved in political matters, declared his kingdom as "not of this earth", and implored his followers to "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's, and unto God what is God's".

If Christians on the left want to wrest their faith back and restore it to its rightful place, they need to realize that their real enemy is not a bunch of snickering atheists, agnostics, and damaged former followers. Their real enemy is an insidious strain of fundamentalism that seeks wealth and political power and influence, to the complete exclusion of the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

I know I've offended some people already, and frankly, I don't care. I think Tony Campolo said it best when he said: "People all over the world are starving to death and most of you don't give a shit. What's worse, most of you are more upset that I just said, 'shit,' than that people all over the world are starving to death."

It's not liberal Christians who make non-believers scorn the person and message of Christ. It's right-wing Christians who distort and pervert his message who make non-believers into virulent non-believers. Liberal Christians and non-believers have a common adversary: the snake oil fakers on the "religious right".

[jjmalonejr]

1. Well said.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. The difference between fundies and other Christians is this, I think:

Fundamentalist theology is based mainly on the concept of personal salvation. Jesus is your *personal* savior; you have a *personal* relationship with him. God watches you all the time and knows exactly what you, individually, are thinking and doing. And if you do what God wants, you get to go to heaven and live with Jesus forever, but if you piss him off he will send you to hell. The best ways to piss God off are by committing personal (that is, sexual) sins, and by failing to worship Jesus unquestioningly. In contrast, most other Christian denominations emphasize community obligation -- love your neighbor because you don't want your neighbor to suffer, not because you are trying to rack up brownie points with God so you, personally, have a better shot at heaven. Hating or disapproving of other "sinners" (e.g., non-Christians, liberals, gays) serves to draw a distinction between the "good," God-fearing Christian who will personally go to heaven, and everybody else, who won't. Since it's all personal with the fundies, your good fortune or financial success is evidence that God approves of you. If you are poor, it's evidence that you must be bad and God doesn't like you.

The notion of personal salvation might explain why fundies are usually Republicans -- the notion that you are "personally" saved is fundamentally selfish. A person who cares only about ensuring his heavenly reward by collecting enough Jesus-points and buttering up God by rigidly following arbitrary rules and condemning those who don't, is showing that he cares only about what happens to him. Like the secular greed-head Republican, the fundie doesn't care about the community, the poor, the weak, the helpless, except to the extent it affects him. That theology fits the Republican ideology very nicely.

[mark414]

fundamentalist doesn't equal right wing or conservative

a good friend of mine's husband is an extreme fundamentalist, in that he believes in a strict adherence to the bible and that everything, for good or for bad is god's will and he will receive his award upon entering heaven

she really struggles with this because she's a real radical...a revolutionary if you will, extremely liberal take to the streets if need be kind of girl

and her husband is a very traditional, he goes to work and is the man and supports his family while his wife takes care of the kids kind of guy...he believes that because that's what the bible says

and for context's sake, they are young, poor, and black, and he doesn't think it's necessary to fight against racism or poverty or injustice because he believes that if that's what god intended then so be it...his reward for suffering will be eternal salvation, and he's one of the most bush hating cats i know

i don't know how the marriage works but it does

i have another (female) friend, extremely religious, who doesn't think that women should be in big powerful positions or anything like that...because she believes in strict adherence to the bible...and she hates george bush


:shrug:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. There are always exceptions.

I was referring to the right-wing fundamentalists of the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson ilk, which does seem to represent most of them.

[mark414]

4. fundamentalist doesn't equal right wing or conservative

a good friend of mine's husband is an extreme fundamentalist, in that he believes in a strict adherence to the bible and that everything, for good or for bad is god's will and he will receive his award upon entering heaven

she really struggles with this because she's a real radical...a revolutionary if you will, extremely liberal take to the streets if need be kind of girl

and her husband is a very traditional, he goes to work and is the man and supports his family while his wife takes care of the kids kind of guy...he believes that because that's what the bible says

and for context's sake, they are young, poor, and black, and he doesn't think it's necessary to fight against racism or poverty or injustice because he believes that if that's what god intended then so be it...his reward for suffering will be eternal salvation, and he's one of the most bush hating cats i know

i don't know how the marriage works but it does

i have another (female) friend, extremely religious, who doesn't think that women should be in big powerful positions or anything like that...because she believes in strict adherence to the bible...and she hates george bush


:shrug:

[arwalden]

3. Nice. :-)

[2Design]

6. I wish christians would live by Christ teachings but most do not

the rethugs especially - they vote into law hate - they treat others with disdain - they are mean spirited - their behavior both before during and after the election was unchristian - most christians I see try to convert people - they do it in the guise of helping others and then practicing their ways of believing and make others comply -

some actually do good things for others - christians are not the only ones who believe in doing good to and for others - american indians treat nature and each other better than christians - and christians came here and killed them because they were different - now the republicans want to do the same thing - kill