My first ever brand new car is a dud. Defective engine.

[Madrone]

I'm sooo sad. I've never had a car newer than 10 years old before, and finally purchased a brand spanking new Honda on 12/31 - based in large part on their reputation. I'm seriously having buyer's remorse - and the 2nd payment isn't even due until 3/15.

The car had 145 miles on it when I drove it off the lot - and a couple of weeks ago, at 1200ish miles I started noticing an oil leak. I took it back to the dealer (1.5 hour drive, each way) on Monday, and after sitting in the waiting room for a couple of hours they come and tell me I am going to be given a rental and sent on my way. The leak is coming from somewhere deep inside the engine.

It's now FRIDAY. No one called me so yesterday I called the dealer to see what was up - guy I'm talking to hasn't seen my car but based on notes by whoever has looked at it they've worked on it for a LONG time, have the bottom of the engine disassembled, and still haven't determined where the leak is originating.

Today, I call again to talk to the guy that looked at it the day I took it in - he had yesterday off. HE tells me that They've spent no time on my car, have not taken anything apart, and that they have been waiting all this time for a response from the honda "tech line" on whether they should disassemble the whole engine, or just the bottom of it. WTF? Shouldn't they be worried about disassembling whatever's necessary to figure out where the FUCKING LEAK IS COMING FROM? Why do they need permission from some "tech line" to touch the car? (note: I'm smelling the distinct odor of bullshit in all of this)

I got home from work this evening and there is a message on my answering machine - this is also from the guy I spoke with today, who acted like he was trying to hide something and gave me information opposite of the guy who was just reading the computer notes.... He says this time that they just heard back from "tech line" and they want the service dept to send them PICTURES. Pictures were taken w/ a digital camera, and sent off to "tech line". Tech line will review the pictures and tell them on Monday if they should start disassembling the whole engine, or just the bottom.

What the fucking hell?? If it's not apart, what are they taking pictures of? The cd collection still in the car? My lovely orange paint job? The deodorizer hanging on the rearview mirror?

I, of course, know fuck-all about engines, so I am completely and totally in the dark - even though I get the sincere impression I'm being bent over.

I feel like I bought a brand new car and am getting a refurb. And I have 59 payments left to regret the entire transaction for.


:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

[blueknight]

1. all car companies

have a 1-800 number you can call and talk to the company directly. i dont know hondas number but any honda dealer will give it to you.it is specifically to call and bitch about the dealership screwing you around. get the number and call ASAP.

[DELUSIONAL]

3. Yep -- what he said.

I gave up on buying new when the new Chevy we bought in the 80s was a major lemon -- and the dealer and GM wouldn't do a thing.

We have never bought another GM.

Call and bitch really LOUD. It sounds like they should replace the car -- you are paying for a new car.

We now have a Honda and Toyota -- We bought the Honda, used, low mileage (lease return). And yes Honda does have very good reviews -- which is why we bought the Honda.

[LeftyMom]

2. Have you looked into the lemon law in your state?

I don't know all the details (I've never bought a new car or even a almost new car) but you may be able to get out of the deal if your car falls under the legal definition of a lemon.

I'd be *pissed* if that happened to me.

[Madrone]

5. Lemon law -

Your vehicle may qualify as a "lemon" if it has one or more substantial defects that have been subject to a "reasonable number of attempts" to diagnose or repair the problem(s) under the manufacturer’s warranty. A "reasonable number of attempts" has occurred when:

1. Diagnosis or repair of the same "serious safety defect" has been attempted two or more times, and the defect continues to exist. At least one attempt must occur during the "warranty period" (see What Is The Warranty Period?).

• A "serious safety defect" is a life-threatening malfunction that impairs the driver’s ability to control or operate the vehicle, or creates a risk of fire or explosion; OR

2. Diagnosis or repair of the same "nonconformity" has been attempted four or more times, and the defect continues to exist. At least one attempt must occur during the "warranty period" (see What Is The Warranty Period?).

• A "nonconformity" is a defect that "substantially impairs" the use, value or safety of the motor vehicle so as to make the vehicle unreliable, unsafe or diminished in resale value for comparable vehicles; OR

3. A vehicle has been out-of-service for diagnosis or repair of one or more nonconformities or serious safety defects (whether or not repaired) for a cumulative total of 30 calendar days, with at least 15 of those days occurring during the "warranty period."


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My situation would fall under the "nonconformity" clause - and it would have to be repaired 4 or more times FOR THE SAME THING and still be broken to be classified a lemon. 20 repairs in a month for different stuff that breaks each time I get it home doesn't qualify as a Lemon either. So far *knockonwood* that's not my issue - but isn't that HORRIBLE? I think if everything breaks it should still be a lemon, not just the same EXACT problem 4x or more.

Or, once I get 30 days shop time added up (today's day #5) it could be offically called a lemon.

All of this is only after arbitration.

[Madrone]

6. oops- dupe.

n/t

[Digit]

4. Yes, check out the lemon law....the clock is ticking

Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.
Check out the lemon law immediately!

[HamstersFromHell]

7. It's called Honda's looking into which will be cheaper for them...

...warranty wise.

I've worked in several motorcycle dealerships as a mechanic, and something like this is SOP when it looks like a warranty might be costly.

They (Honda) have to reimburse the dealer for the labor as listed in the flat rate manual. While they pay the dealer less than what a customer pays, it's still getting into quite a chunk of money for them when you start talking major engine overhauls.

I would imagine that Honda is wanting pictures to determine if it would be cheaper (from their standpoint) to replace the entire engine rather than have it completely torn down and reassembled.

Don't smell bullshit, it's probably very standard warranty policy as dictated by the manufacturer....a policy which if not followed by the dealer, will result in the dealer not being reimbursed by Honda for the labor. (And the dealer damn sure don't want that to happen to them.)

Relax and let the system try to work for you. I know you're upset, but I honestly don't think Honda or anyone else is trying to rip you off. Mistakes DO happen. I know that being a bitch about things won't help one bit. When I was service manager, the customer's attitude was a major factor in how much I was willing to go "above and beyond" in helping. You come in with a chip on your shoulder and treated me bad...the next two who came in the door just got ahead of you in the line to be serviced. And I was no different from most any other service manager.

Good luck and here's hoping it all works out for the best.

Just my $0.02

[Madrone]

9. I'm VERY familiar with bitch-ass customers and major attitudes.

I can't be like that - I've been on the receiving end of too many of those attitudes myself at various jobs over the years. No worries there! ;)

The bullshit involved is in their unwillingness to play it straight with me. I DO feel ripped off, though. Honestly, with the length of time I've had this car, and the number of miles on it I feel mine should be donated to Honda science and they should give me a new one. Will they ever do something like that? Not likely, even if hell were to freeze over.

The dealer certainly shouldn't get screwed either (even though they are jerking me around which I have no appreciation for) - it's not THEIR fault the car came defective from the factory.

And honestly, I may end up raising even my own mild version of holy hell if they end up putting what may as well effectively be deemed a "rebuilt" engine in my BRAND NEW car. At the very least I want a brand new engine - and even that bugs me.

Thank you very much for your perspective though - I had suspected as much regarding the dealer vs. corporate.

BTW - maybe you'll know the answer to something I've been curious about. If I get a "rebuilt" engine, or if the engine is replaced entirely how will that affect the resale value of my vehicle? Thinking Carfax report - or something similar. "Car had engine replaced at 1200 miles" ... I'm quite worried about this.

[HamstersFromHell]

11. Playing it straight

Good for you on your attitude!

As for playing it straight, in most cases, there's not going to be but ONE service dept. to dealer contact within the dealership, but more than likely 2 or 3 "service managers" and even more "service writers" (YMMV, this is based on the size of the dealership.)

The computer system, while just fine for those small day to day jobs that are easily "coded", more often than not do not have enough space to completely detail a major problem. Most likely, only the mechanic(s) and one service writer or manager know exactly what is going on. Talking to whomever answers the phone just leads to frustration because they aren't in the know and are trying to reconstruct your entire problem from a few notes on a screen. You might try politely inquiring as to to whom specifically is "assigned to your case" as it were and talk to no one else but them in the future.

Any factory replacement engine almost certainly would not be a "rebuild" - given the labor involved in rebuilding re-boring, aline-honing, etc. and fitting rebuild parts vs. just crating a new engine up.

Given that you've said they have pulled the bottom off to check and are taking photos, I might even venture to say there's a possibility there may be a porous block casting causing the leak, and that will entail replacing the entire engine - it's far more costly to completely remove and strip everything off an engine and assemble it all to a new block, since many of the parts on Hondas are coded by size tolerances (4 "sizes" and each has it's own set of identically toleranced matching parts with their own part numbers), and the new block may have entirely different tolerances from your old block which would require replacing a lot of parts....bearings, pistons, etc.

I wouldn't think a new engine would adversely affect the car's worth down the road. Hondas of all sorts hold their value remakably well, which is a testament to Honda's engineering. As far as 1200 mile replacements, it's almost new anyway, and to a potential buyer might not make much difference. Now a replacement at 35,000 miles might look as if you'd abused the car in some way.

Hope this helps!

[Madrone]

12. "Rebuilt" -

that word is slightly disingenuous - which is why I quoted it. What I meant by "rebuilt" is any repairing of *whatever* may be defective - which I know is not technically "rebuilt" in the truest sense of the word. I just mean a "repaired" brand new engine will effectively, to me, qualify as something "rebuilt" = bought as new - paying for a refurb.

At this point, I'm hoping for a whole new motor. I'll feel most comfortable with that option - barring the incredibly unlikely event of swapping me out an identical one that wasn't born defective. :)

[HamstersFromHell]

13. Rebuilt vs new

Well, given it's leaking and it's in the engine, you'll either be having the dealer replace gaskets or seals which are either improperly installed or bad, or else you'll have a bad casting and you'll get a new engine.

New is new, not rebuilt. Either way the parts used (or the complete assembly) is new, so it's not a rebuild. Your car is technically a "used" car the minute you rolled it off the dealer's lot, even if it's "new" to you. It having been repaired with factory parts shouldn't keep you from still thinking it's a new car, nor would it deter any potential buyer down the road from thinking less of it.

A new engine isn't a rebuild, it's newer than the "new" of your car and is correcting a problem, that's all. I'd say much more so than a problem where's a known defect and is subject to a recall...now that I might consider "rebuilding" as in it wasn't designed right to begin with and the new parts are improving on a known fault.

My only new car (still my daily driver) developed a leak in the rear end at 22,000 miles. Took it to the dealer, they topped up the grease that had leaked out, ordered the part (axle seal) and sent me on my way. Came back a week later, changed it out in about an hour. Car wasn't any less "new" to me than it was before. I never thought of it as having been "rebuilt". Just a problem that was corrected under warranty is all.

Keep us posted on what the dealer and Honda finds. I'd like to know how close I am with my "over the net" guesstimating. :)

[Madrone]

14. I'm communication challenged

right now, I think! *L* Which is why I'm logging off the puter and heading off to care for the poor, neglected pets that keep coming in to look at me with sad, imploring eyes. I'm tired!

I'll try this one more time - I partially clarified myself, but didn't hit a bullseye. I know if they put a new engine in, it will be NEW. Brand spankin' new - period. My "rebuild" statement is only in reference to the engine that is currently in the car. A repair, if you will.

And I totally get what you're saying about your rear end leak @ 22k, and it not being "less new" or "rebuilt". My feeling about this is really ONLY because it's not got much over 1k in mileage, and I've only even made one payment on the thing. If it had 22k, you'd not hear the same level of irritation out of me.

I'll post the diagnosis when it comes - hopefully you'll see it. I'm getting damned curious about this myself.

Good night, and thanks for the info! It helps to have a little inside perspective.

[HamstersFromHell]

15. I see what you're getting at...my bad.

My new car also had "problems" right off the lot.

The lid on the console was scratched. (obviously some lot jockey did it, they come with a protective plastic tape from the factory) I made the dealer replace the console lid with a new one.

The dealer glued their damned emblems all over it. I got the dealer to remove said emblems (and the remaining glue) and rebuff the paint where they were. (Why should dealer get any "free" advertising more than my complimentary license plate frame with their name on it? I bought it, I didn't rent it.

It had a vibration from day one in the left front tire. It took me three trips to get that taken care of. For some reason the clowns at the dealership couldn't get it right. They finally sent me to a local tire shop (on their dime) who got it right the first try.

Air conditioning didn't cool nearly as well as my (3 year older) identical model trade in. Took two trips there before they merely added Freon and got it to working as it should.

Major or minor, I just considered them all as "teething problems" and wouldn't allow them to detract from the enjoyment of my new car.

Now, as far as ever buying a new car again? I won't. Not for the problems, but for eating the depreciation over the first 2-4 years. I hated the feeling of paying for something that was worth less than what I owed on it for so long. New car smell will only get ya so far, you know. :) In retrospect, I'd never do it again, but it's also something I had to do at least once in my life, just to say I did it.

Now don't get me started on the sales and financing departments - a necessary evil, I suppose.

Don't fret about it...once taken care of, you should have a remarkably reliable car. I've owned 3 Hondas (none new) and all 3 went well over 180,000 miles each on the original engines with nary a hint of trouble. Considering that in the '70's, getting 100,000 out of an American built car was considered lucky, you sure could have picked worse than a Honda.

[Historic NY]

8. Definitely demand to speak with the regional rep. for Honda...

145 miles...I'd tell them to keep it. I hope they are paying for the rental. I don't know about Honda customer service but I am sure that they will try. Make your displeasure known about what has already occurred and the lack of or slowness of action.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/consumer/lemon/motorvehicles/index.shtml

[Madrone]

10. I bought it with 145 miles - leak happened @ 1200.

Car had 1300 by the time I got it to the dealer 1.5 hours away a week after noticing the problem.

So - 1300 miles on the car currently.

And yes, thank god - they're paying for the rental. Good thing too, or I'd still be sleeping on those uncomfortable seats in the waiting room...lol I don't have that much money. :( This car was a HUGE, HUGE purchase for me. And I had to slowly save (and borrow half) to reach a 7k down payment that allowed me to get it with do-able monthly payments.