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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 03:20 AM
Original message
This makes me sad
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3181381&mesg_id=3181381

I am as anti-war as the next person, but I thought we learned from the crap that happened after the Vietnam War that bashing vets and the military is not a good thing.
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. I am anti-militaristic, but I think it's dumb to bash any
group as a group. I want to end the cycle of the war, i.e. militarism, I do not try to hate on people in the military. We know that all sorts of people join the military... No one deserves to die that's all.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. I agree, it's a nasty situation...
Edited on Sat Feb-26-05 04:33 AM by punpirate
... but both sides have points.

By and large, the defense of the military used frequently is that we continuingly owe our freedom to them; that's a bit disingenuous, but I understand the origins of the sentiment (dates to the Revolutionary War and WWII). But, in truth, since the end of WWII, the military has been used almost exclusively for political purposes, not purely for the defense of our freedom and our internal Constitutional rights. The perception of that has queered ordinary people on the military, rightly or wrongly.

Since the advent of the all-volunteer military, many people feel that a young kid off the street should understand that he or she is being used by politicians and resist the inducements to become a part of that political process. That's not as easy for a poor kid to do as it might seem.

That said, this war has generated plenty of divisions, and some of those divisions have been created by soldiers themselves, largely because some soldiers have behaved atrociously and in contravention of their own general orders. Some people, and I am one of them, know that it is part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) that a soldier is obligated to disobey an illegal order. Some soldiers in this most recent war have not done so and have reveled in the execution of those illegal orders, not realizing that they have tarnished the reputation of all soldiers by doing so.

There is a part of the public which is repulsed by such behavior (torture, indiscriminate killings of civilians, overt or disguised racism and the like) and would choose to see that as representative, especially if they were not in favor of the war.

There is another part of the public which would prefer to see that behavior as simply following orders and, therefore, excusable (the rejected Nuremberg defense).

Another part of the public chooses to see whatever the military does, collectively and individually, as beyond reproach because they are seen by that group as "defending our freedoms."

Myself, I see most of our soldiers (and most of the opposing insurgents, as well) as victims, as pawns in a greater game in which they haven't been coached in the rules of the game or told anything of the ultimate intentions for the game itself. The remainder are, on both sides, the few who gain pleasure from the pain of others. Those latter individuals should be judged for what they do in the contravention of ordinary human decency.

But, blame bleeds out like blood from a wound. When a Marine general describes killing as "fun," it's understandable why a portion of the public comes to think of such remarks as the prevailing opinion of all Marines. When an Army general fuses his religion with his command, as has LTG "Jerry" Boykin, some of the public thinks all under him share his irrational world view. When the president ignores and covers up war crimes (including his own) and fills the airwaves with empty praise of the military for purely political purposes, some part of the public makes an unfortunate association between the crime of the president and the people under his command.

What most of the public doesn't realize is that the mere preparation of an individual for war is a dehumanizing process. War itself reinforces callousness, inhumanity and an indifference to human suffering which no sane person can tolerate without the protective veil of what we call patriotism.

When people, in the military and out of it, are misused by their leaders for ill purpose, are led to war by false patriotism and lies, confusion and misunderstanding and blame bleed out like blood from a wound.









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HamstersFromHell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Excellent post!
n/t
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two gun sid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. Great Post
I read vetwife's post in GD and was baffled. I don't see all the bashing of vets on DU she claims. It all seemed pretty disingenuous to me.

I served during the Reagan Administration and my friends and I discussed how we were being used and why we had joined the military. Most of us were there for no other reason than a paycheck. I think one guy I knew ever said he joined for love of country and patriotism.(And he was a RW goof). I have never felt that anyone owed me a damn thing for my service. I was never involved in anything that could be called heroic or did I ever protect anyones freedom.(Yes, I did see action).

I don't wish any harm to our troops. I don't hate the troops. I want them to come home to their families. I want this Administration to quit using these guys as cannon fodder in this immoral and illegal war. I can't be a cheerleader for our service members. I would feel like I was doing nothing but signing their death warrants.

If any DUer thinks I am dead wrong, fine. Tell me how I am wrong. Don't tell me I am an asshole and leave. Tell me I am an asshole and stick around. As progressives, we need to debate and argue and get our message right.



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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. There ISN'T that much bashing of vets at all on DU.
There just isn't. That is unsupported. I don't know where that's coming from. And if there is, that's what the alert button is for.

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HamstersFromHell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. It's not bashing...it's *perceived* bashing...
...when someone else's view and your's don't quite line up.

Calling a cheezy gummint sponsored state approved photo op bullshit isn't bashing the troops, it's bashing those immoral bastards in high places who sent our people off to to participate in an illegal occupation.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. BINGO!
Where the hell have YOU been on DU and why haven't I noticed you before?

You really need to post more often. If for no other reason than I think you are totally brilliant.
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HamstersFromHell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I post...
...only when I think something needs to be said that hasn't already been said. Or if someone is asking for help and I think I might have knowledge that can help them somehow.

Otherwise I'm a lurker who has been here a few years now, and occasionally tosses in my bits of twisted humor.

I also have the remarkable ability to kill threads faster than Raid does roaches.

:nuke:

Pleased to make your acquaintance!

:toast:
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. I don't think DU permits it.
I can only recall one time I was engaged in a postathon with a troop basher. The entire thread was deleted.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. And honestly?
I think a good bit of that is coming from.....disruptors.

Seriously. I'm not saying all of it (what little there is) but most.

And yeah, they don't. You are supposed to hit alert on such posts.
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I agree on the disruptor's theory
You very seldom see it and when you do it's so over the top and in your face. It's just too obvious.

Like I said, I've only see it once. I have, however, run across threads with deleted posts where they replies leave the impression that's what happened. I think DU (and DUers)deal with it pretty well.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's sad but i don't know what to say to her
Seems to me she should stay here and fight.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. I don't understand why not "supporting" the troops is a problem
for those who aren't so keen on kriegsmanship by any nation

how many MILLIONS of lives would have been saved had there been a few million "troopbashers" back in the Weimar republic?

Nobody forced any of those troops to join, OR to go over there in defense of..........what?
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Good point.
And if we truly ARE free, then we are free to support or not support the troops, as a person sees fit. It's not a law.

(Though where I live, you'd think, looking around, that there was some law that said you had to have about five magnetic ribbon stickers on your car!) :eyes:
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. funny....isn't that one of the main reasons the Pilgrims came over here
in the first place? they didn't like being conscripted against their will into the King's army a single bit more than they did being forced to join the COE

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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. oh....stickers.....like this one?
Edited on Sat Feb-26-05 05:35 AM by Gabi Hayes


it says " 'support our troops or else' does not support a healthy democracy"

I wear my dad's dogtags from WWII. He had his ASS blown off (half of it) in Belgium, right before the Battle of the Bulge; spent a year in a military hospital. I started wearing his tags two years ago, at the start of the Anschluss mit Irak, when I realized that we LOST the war against fascism. It took until Dec. 12, 2000, but we have to win our freedom back, and it isn't looking very good right now.

I saw your posts in the GD thread about the, you-know scene, like this one, couldn't believe how easily so many people allow their emotions to short circuit their thought processes

ever read Ellul's "Propaganda"

had to read it for a Philosophy of Education class a long time ago, and it's MUCH more meaningful now than it was then

Punpirate sums it up most eloquently above...very well put
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. people who post these "I am leaving" threads seek attention
they should just (((leave))) and spare us the lecture.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
17. I am a vet and I find it rather pathetic and whiney. nt
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
19. My parents were both vets.
Dad was Navy and Mom WAAC. WWII, you see. Dad was gonna be in the first wave, the commando ops of Operation Olympic. Going into Japan, armed with only a hatchet and a knife. They were to seize japanese firearms once in. It would have been suicide.

I don't bash "The Troops" but I do criticize the bad ones. If I don't, then they get lumped in with all the good ones who served honorably and with their humanity intact.

No person of good will can allow that to happen.

I suspect that Amanda has other stressors in her life right now. She is a valuable contributor to the DU tapestry. I hope she returns at some point in the future.
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Stop_the_War Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
20. .
Edited on Sat Feb-26-05 09:13 AM by Stop_the_War
.
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