600.000 French died in WWII, 2-3 million inWW 1.

[Swede]

How dare they call them cowards.

[JohnKleeb]

1. Thats what I say

I think at Verdun, more French were lost than all the Americans have in all of our wars. Frightening frankly just shows how brutal it was.

[Swede]

4. The numbers are beyond our comprehension John.

Every one of those millions had a mom,dad, brother.sis. The rightwingers scorn the French,without their sacrafice our side may have lost.

[JohnKleeb]

7. I know, they were brave as anyone

[Swede]

13. When a guy reads the history of first war,it seems like a slow comedy of

errors. Everyone thought it would be over by Christmas,no real animosity between nations. Machine guns changed that. Imagine Europe without the war, it was a time of so much promise.

[JohnKleeb]

18. Its very hard to imagine realyl and its sad

[Zuni]

9. not likely

600,000 died in the Civil War. The French suffered about 500,000 total casualties at verdun, including wounded and captured.

[JohnKleeb]

10. My bad, but we do at least know in the total war they lost more

Thanks btw.

[Zuni]

33. Their losses in WWI probably exceed our total losses

1.5 million is a huge number.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

116. 1 in 3 Frenchmen between 18 and 40 died in WWI

that is astounding-so many widows and orphans...

[uppityperson]

132. Every cemetery has a marker with names

It is amazing how many died in WWI. WWII gets the press, but the numbers and % young men who died in WWI are amazing. "every cemetery" meaning every one I know of which is a lot.

[Quixote1818]

106. REALLY ACCORDING TO SEAN HANNITY

The Amerians did everything without ANY help from ANYONE! Because we are arogant ASS HOLES!

[CubsFan1982]

2. Vive la France!

[Zuni]

16. I wonder how many French 'cowards' routed the best of Europe's

forces under Napoleon.

[enigmatic]

3. The only ones calling them cowards..

are those who would pee their pants in fear if they came 1000 miles of an actual battle..

[Swede]

6. Exactly. Democracy without France is incomprehensible.

Vive le France.

[alwynsw]

53. I wouldn't go that far.

You have to consider that this comes from a couple of crochety old uncles who fought in WW II. One landed in Europe for the 3rd time on D-Day and both fought in the Bulge.

They get pissed and start shouting "cowards" every time the French disagree with any U.S. administration or idea. But then, they gripe about the ungrateful Brits, Belgians, etc. as well. Usually they still bitch about "Those goddamn krauts and wops."

Be kind. They're both nudging 90 and not all there anymore.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

5. French Batallion won 3 Presidential Distinguished Unit Citations in Korea

They were involved in several major battles of the Korean War, including Heartbreak Ridge.

http://www.info-france-usa.org/atoz/koreawar.asp

[Zuni]

8. France lost 1.5 million in WWI, approx. 2-300,000 in WWII

French soldiers fought in some of the most insane, violent battles in Human history.
They suffered at least 500,000 casualties, killed and wounded at Verdun and another 195,000 at the Somme (the Brits lost 420,000 there, including 60,000 killed or wounded in one day, July 1, 1916), the bloodiest battle in recorded history. In the first months of WWI August 1914-Jan,1 1915, when the British Army was still only a tiny presence on the Western Front, the French lost almost 1,000,000 men killed and wounded while holding back the superior German Army.

In WWII between May 10, 1940 and June 22, 1940 the French lost 129,000 men when they supposedly surrendered without a fight. The losses were extensive and their army was decisevly beaten and many soldiers did not fight and fled in a panic, but many other units fought like devils. Their army was undermined by bad strategy, superior German generalship, poor morale, subversion by both communists (who were pro-Nazi at the time, due to Stalin's pacts with Hitler) and the sizable French fascist community. The panic worked from the top down, as Generals and leaders lost their nerves after the Germans broke the French line at Sedan (where the Germans had routed the French in 1871) and the panic spread to many units. The French defeat was quite a stain on French honor, as was the amount of collaboration many french did with the Germans. One of the last units to fight the Russians in Berlin was a French SS Division, the SS-Charlemagne Division.

[Swede]

19. Incredible numbers.

How can we forget?

[intrepid_wanderer]

97. Even more...

How come we gripe so very much at the loss of ~1400??


Dunno, I don't care for the WMD argument much at all... but for stopping atrocities, we should be in a few more places than Iraq, no?

[uppityperson]

133. 1500+

But for atrocities, we should be in a few less places than Iraq, yes?

[intrepid_wanderer]

138. NO.

at least not in my assesment... then again... doing nothing is an option... I just have the mindset that goes along with 'action speaks louder than words'

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

32. The French continued fighting in WWII after the fall of France

First of all, not only French troops were facing Hitler when he invaded France. There were about 350,000 British troops, a Belgian Army, Dutch units, and two Polish Divisions. All of them disintegrated before the German Blitzkreig, not just the French. The British fled to Dunkirk and in fact relied on the French First Army to keep the Germans at bay. About 60,000 French troops accompanied the British as they fled across the English channel. In North Africa and in the French colonies, they had garrisons that eventually joined the Free French Army. The French Air Force according to French sources estimate that they shot down about 1,000 German planes during the battle of France. Those were 1,000 planes not available to the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain, which was a close contest. One of the greatest aces of the allies in all of World War II was the Free French pilot Pierre Clostermann, who had a combined killed and probable total of about 50 German planes. Free French pilots in North Africa volunteered to go to Russia and formed the two French squadrons of the Normandie Niemen and shot down approximately 300 German planes fighting as a detachment of the Russian Army. The fighter ace Marcel Albert won the medal "Hero Of The Soviet Union", which is Russia's highest military honor. The Free French fought with the allies in North Africa. The battle of Bir Hakeim involved the stand of regiments of Foreign Legion, French Marines, French Spahis, and other units whereby they held off a superior German force under Rommel for 10 days, under constant bombardment, that allowed the British Army to escape and later win a victory at El Alamein. The Free French forces fought with the allies in the Italian campaign and, while the US was bogged down on the bloody beaches at Anzio, it was the French forces that stormed the mountains above them and broke the Gustav Line, forcing the German army to retreat. There was a French Army fighting at the Battle of the Bulge as well. And when people talk about the fact that the French Army retreated and lost in the Battle of France, they are forgetting that the Soviet Army, which was an even larger force, completely fell apart under German attack. If you compare the distance of retreat, the Soviet Army retreated several times the length of France, in fleeing to the gates of Moscow, and was only saved by the fortuitous arrival of the Siberian Army and the Russian winter.

[alwynsw]

37. True for the Free French. Not so for the Vichy.

Remember, the Brits had to sink the French Navy to keep it out of the war on the Axis' side. Just one example.

As stated in other posts, every European nation had this problem to some degree.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

49. The French fleet at Mers El Kebir wasn't officially Vichy

The French fleet had escaped France to avoid capture and had sailed to North Africa. When the British demanded they immediately join the British Navy or sail out of the Mediterranean, they destroyed it when their demand was not met. It was a difficult decision. Vichy didn't contribute a great deal to the German war effort. There was one division of French troops (about 10,000) called the Charlemagne Division who fought on the Russian front. They specifically refused to fight the British or Americans, but only on the eastern front against the "Bolsheviks". Only a handful of them survived the war.

[alwynsw]

57. That's has been, and likely will be, argued until doomsday.

But I understand the British decision, given the tales coming out about the Vichy. It was a pretty much one of those "if you ain't with us yer agin us" calls.

[Zuni]

69. The British couldn't take that chance

and I believe the ships were under Admiral Darlan at the time, and he was a shady opportunist. He supported the Axis until the allies gave him a better offer. Then he became an ally just before Torch and turned his forces from Vichy to Allied. at the time Eisenhower would rather have a sleazebag on his side than as an enemy, despite the outcry in the press at the darlan deal.
It was military expiediency that made the allies work with darlan, not personal choice.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

80. Actually, I believe the ships were under Admiral Gensoul

who was in contact with Darlan, who I believe was still in France itself. I think the problem was strangely enough one of personalities. The French Admiral felt insulted at the British demand (or at least the way they expressed the terms) and didn't adequately communicate to Darlan the fact that the French fleet could have gone to a U.S. port. Gensoul paid for it with his life. The British didn't want the French fleet to fall into German hands. Ironically, I believe Hitler's own intentions at the time were to scuttle the French fleet if it came under his control. And you are absolutely right, Darlan was a major sleeze.

[Zuni]

84. I think you are right

I haven't read about it in a long time. I always think Darlan when I think Vichy Admiral.

[Zuni]

65. no argument here

Free french forces served with the allies in every major locale where troops fought. North African French Forces were among the best mountain troops of the war.
Almost all the French Army units switched sides as soon as the Allies arrived. Only against British forces did they ever hold out, after the British attack on the French Navy at oran in 1940.

Also, no Army did well after their first battle with the Germans. The British had Dunkirk and Gazala, the Poles were savaged, the Americans had Kasserine Pass (against the remnants of Rommel's forces). The Russians lost 5-6 million men in 1941 alone and the Germans made it nearly 900 miles into Russia. They very nearly lost the war again in 1942.

The French did not break the cassino defenses. No doubt they were anomg many that fought there but the Poles or New Zealanders actually seized Cassino if I remember correctly.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

85. The Casino defenses actually were not that important

It was the German lines in the mountains above Casino. The Germans were shaking their heads in astonishment at why the allies would focus so much attention on Monte Casino and so much loss of life.

The French stormed what is called the "Belvedere" which was in the mountains above Monte Casino. That was where the Gustav line had its major anchor. They were the ones who broke the line.

[femmecahors]

96. WWII

Over 1,000,000 French soldiers were taken as prisioners of war in 1940 as the Maginot Line collapsed, and spent the war in prison camps in Germany, where many died. (My neighbor was a POW.)

The father of my other neighbor, went up to fight the Germans, was evacuated out of Dunkirk by the British, who immediately put all the French on boats back to France. This man stole a bicycle in Normandy and cycled back to our departement, near Toulouse, where he led the local resistance.

[solinvictus]

131. SS/Charlemagne...

They fought with much distinction on the Eastern Front against the Red Army. I believe there were also Norwegians or Dutch in Berlin at the end.
Collaboration was simply a political reality: many French did not want another war with Germany and actually supported National Socialism. The "Resistance" didn't occur until after Germany invaded the USSR.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

136. Many in the French Resistance were Communists

The Communist Party in France held off on its criticism of Germany when Hitler and Stalin entered their non-aggression pact and both countries invaded Poland. There is an old newspaper photograph of the French Communist newspaper L'Humanite which showed the parade of Nazi troops in Warsaw and it read something like "Our noble comrades the Germans parade down the streets of Warsaw". Of course when Germany attacked the Soviet Union, all of that changed. But many in the French Resistance were not communists. There were quite a few Jews who fought in the French resistance. I've seen a recent estimate that 350,000 French fought in the Resistance, either as direct combatants or as individuals providing intelligence and support. It's estimated that about 70,000 died. About 8,000 French resistance fighters died in the Vercors campaign alone, where the Resistance had gathered an informal and badly equipped little army in that mountainous region.

[alwynsw]

11. Your WW II numbers are actually a little low.

France lost about 700,000 plus an undetermined number of Jews and Gypsies that were transported to the extermination camps.

Just for the heck of it. DeGaulle was the only Allied CIC who refused to have his troops placed under Eisenhower on D-Day. But then, he was always an ass unless we were throwing huge amounts of money his way. Can't say the same for other French presidents.

[Zuni]

14. De gaulle was a real pain in the ass, frankly

but he was fighting for France. He just had very little tact and patience. He was very hard to work with.

[alwynsw]

20. De gaulle was a real pain in the ass, frankly

I think we are both being inordinately kind to the old bastard.

Can't always pick your ally's leaders after an invasion.

I gotta say it: VICHY!!! Now those were the cowards.

[Zuni]

26. Sadly, Petain, the most famous Vichy leader

was France's best commander in WWI and was known as the 'Hero of Verdun' for the fact that he saved Verdun from being a total defeat for the French Army in one of their darkest days of the war.
His slogan, They Shall Not Pass, is one of the most famous French phrases from the war.
Pierre Laval, the main force in Vichy, was an ex-communist for manuevered and plotted within the French government and later was hitler's most loyal toady.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

41. Churchill liked DeGaulle but Roosevelt absolutely hated him

From DeGaulle's point of view, Britain and the United States were making plans to land their armies in France and keeping him out of the loop. Roosevelt didn't in fact want France to recover their independence at the end of the war but wanted to install a military authority for awhile, like they had in Japan and Germany. Churchill talked him out of it. Personally, I hated DeGaulle for what he did to the French Resistance. DeGaulle wanted to be recognized as the de facto leader of the French government in exile. He sent the order to the resistance to rise up, which came much too early. Many resistance fighters died because of DeGaulle's desire to see what power he could exert (at least that's what some people say). But DeGaulle, for all his ego, was a brilliant man, a man far more educated and skilled in statesmanship than most US Presidents. It wasn't Nixon who established the first link between China and the West. It was DeGaulle, who went to China ahead of Nixon.

[Zuni]

42. De Gaulle was an idol of Nixons

and De gaulle is the one who sold Nixon on the idea of opening China

[Joe Chi Minh]

121. So did I! But no-one listened to me...

Still, I suppose De Gaulle had made it a bit higher than Private IInd Class in the motor pool. Purely, in homage to Duane Dobermann, of course.

[WindRavenX]

12. anyone who says the French are cowards...

...are fucking idiots. End. Of. Story.

[alwynsw]

15. Just for the heck of it, try this on for size.

Including the 1917 revolution, the Russians lost about 22,000,000 in each of the world wars.

Only mentioning numbers. Not making any judgements of any sort.

Then, of course, there were the 6,000,000 + Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, physically and mentally "challenged", and generally anyone else who pissed of Der Fuhrer that dies in the camps.

[Zuni]

21. The USSR lost 27 million in WWII

6,000,000 is ONLY Jews. Approx 11 million died in Nazi concentration and POW camps. About 4 million Soviet Soldiers alone.

The Soviet revenge was terrible too. At least 2 million German women were raped in 1945 by Soviet soldiers, encouraged by the Soviet government to do whatever they wanted for revenge. Several million Germans were forcebly deported from their homes and I think perhaps 1.5 million died as refugees from Soviet brutality.

[alwynsw]

24. I deliberately chose the lower, well actually near median estimate

Mainly because we'll never know for sure because of Uncle Joe.

[alwynsw]

28. Yeah. I love what the Nazis did with the Ukranians.

You guard our camps for special priveliges, etc. to free up our men for battle. While you're at it, if you don't starve, we'll exterminate your ass in a couple years or less.

I deliberately omitted the P.O.W. camps because those numbers are generally rolled in with military casualty lists and counts.

[Zuni]

40. Hell

one can hardly blame some Ukrainians when they thought they were being liberated in 1941. Stalin's war on the Ukraine was real genocide, plain and simple. My grandmother, a Cossack from Rostov in southern Russia (not Ukraine, but a city hated by the Bolsheviks, picked for purging by Lenin very early on), lived through the 1930s when Rostov was practically in a state of siege. Food shortages were epidemic and people ate tree bark, dogs, grass seeds. many members of her family and people she knew, including her first husband were executed or dissappeared.

[JohnKleeb]

44. Whats sad is you wouldnt know what to do

They had a right to hate the communist government but the nazis were also despicable. It reminds me of what I as an Irish Catholic would feel in the English Civil War, I feel monarchies are evil so I couldnt side with King Charles but I would never ever side with Cromwell and Parliament since they hated Catholics and the Irish.

[Zuni]

46. it is really hard to pick a 'lesser evil'

in many of those situations. The Polish were in that situation in WWII. They would have fought both the Russians and the Germans if they had their choice. Both nations were predatory and wanted to destroy poland.

[JohnKleeb]

47. Thats whats so sad about many things in history

You have two great opposing evils and you dont know what to join.

[Zuni]

55. my grandparents joined neither

My grandfather was a Soviet officer, but he was captured and worked as a slave laborer. My grandmother was deported for labor. Both of them fled Berlin at the first chance they got, in 1945 and went to American lines somehow.

[JohnKleeb]

58. I am glad for them

They're lucky to have made it.

[Swede]

23. These numbers are beyond comprehension.

Each one had a mother.

[rooboy]

17. Typical librul carping...

Bill O'Reilly did more for France's freedom than any of those dead soldiers ever did. If you don't believe me, just ask him.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

99. lol, that's something O'Reilly would actually say too n/t

[alwynsw]

22. On the whole, I agree, but

I hold that the Vichy were indeed cowards of the lowest order. Every nation has 'em at one time or another.

[Swede]

27. They were facists all right.

Not cowards,they died for their fuhrer like the rest of their ilk.

[Zuni]

29. The French SS Divison Charlemagne

was among the last units to defend Berlin. They fought until the Division was practically non-existent.

[JohnKleeb]

31. Ive read about British SS divisions too interestingly enough

[Zuni]

36. The British 'Division'

had approx. 50 men. It was a Platoon.
The Legion of St. George, i think it was called, but not sure.

[JohnKleeb]

38. Ahh interesting

I know of William Joyce, I hope i am not related to him, my late grandmother's mom's maiden name was Joyce, I'd prefer to be related to James Joyce of course.

[Swede]

51. John,my uncle Tony was with the Canadians on D-Day.

Dad was in the second wave on June 7th. He said the shooting on the beach was over.

[JohnKleeb]

54. Amazing, what beach was that again?

It must have been amazing to live in that time, I must say.

[Swede]

61. Juno beach.

The Canadians actually advanced farther then any other army that day.

[JohnKleeb]

63. Didnt know that

Canadians get a lot of shit like the French too. Its a shame how stuck up Americans can be.

[Zuni]

74. Canadians were not picked on then

Canadians provided some of the best troops in the whole British commonwealth.
American-Canadian relations were excellent then.
Indeed, American Canadian relations usually very good. But Bush has turned one of our closest allies against us. Ihave been to canada and was treated wonderfully. I am afraid to go back now.

The American/Canadian 1st Special Service Division was among the best units of all the war. It took among the best soldiers from both armies and trained them to carry out raids and mountain warfare. They served in Italy

[Darth_Kitten]

109. Never be afraid to come back to Canada.

:hi:

[alwynsw]

64. I'll have to ask my uncle.

He was at one of the American beaches. I want to say Gold or Sword, but I'm likely way off base. My memory for names stinks.

[JohnKleeb]

66. Well if hes on the american beaches

Omaha or Utah then. Thats ok, we all lose our memory sometimes. I once refered to a serial killer by the name of Barbara Stager as Barbara Stanwyck, my friend was like ummm Barbara Stanwyck is an actress.

[Swede]

72. It was the luck of the draw.

The Canucks got flat beaches,comparitively lightly defended. The Americans got heavily defended rolling hills. It was a fucking turkey shoot for the Germans.

[rockymountaindem]

103. I visited all the beaches when I was 9.

Sword, Juno and Gold were very flat, and backed up to little towns, making the fight for the beach very brief and the fight for the towns behind more important. This meant that the time period in which there was a shooting gallery on the open beach was quite small.

Omaha was completely different. Huge cliffs, with the German bunkers and even the barbed wire still on top, astride giant bomb craters 15 feet deep. I gotta figure that at least some of those hit the bunkers, but they were still intact. The Germans had a high vantage point and were heavily entrenched, which was not possible on the British and Canadian beaches where everything was flat and the German line of sight was obscured by buildings.

Utah beach was extremely flat and wide, and had the potential to be very bloody. I read in The Longest Day that the Americans there were saved because they landed 250-500 yards from the intended LZ, where by coincidence defenses were much lighter than where the Americans had planned to land. When they broke through the weaker German defenses, they had outflanked the main German garrison on the beach. Interestingly, the invasion force on Utah was lead by one of Teddy Roosevelt's grandsons.

[Zuni]

76. Gold and Sword were British beaches

[alwynsw]

104. That's me and names.

If I couldn't get away with calling old whatshername Honey, I'd have to sleep on the couch.

Called Unc this A.M. The old fart's out at a flea market.

Oh well. I've a 50/50 chance. We'll just say Vermont for now.

(For those who haven't had their coffee yet, my aunt says she thought it was Utah.)

edited to add: If you think the memory thing is bad, try this. I've been to the beaches. Was in the AF Band and played a couple of memorial services at the cemetaries in the -70's.

[Zuni]

71. They made it to the outskirts of Caen

but got bogged down when Rommal and Von rundstedt moved the bulk of Germany's armor in the west to their front.

[JohnKleeb]

73. Its good that Hitler was so bad with his marshals

If Rommel had lived, jesus.

[Zuni]

79. His hands were tied

But even Rommel knew that if the Allies had made it ashore, then the war was over. Germany would be defeated within a year and there could be nothing. If an allied landing failed, they could reinforce the Eastern front and possibly hold the Russians to a stalemate.

Neither Rommel (Commander, Army Group B in N. France), who wanted to put all his defences on the beaches, nor Von Rundstedt (commander in Chief, Western front)who wanted to pull his forces into a reserve to strike a concentrated blow when he knew where the allies were landing could have won. Rommel would have a strung out defense that would be destroyed by airpower and heavy cannon. they would also be spread out an unable to concentrate.
Von Rundstedt would have realized to late how hard it would be to move Panzer Divisions into Normandy under Superior Allied air power.

[Swede]

39. Have you ever read about the Spanish Blue Division?

I think Nazis came out of the woodwork. Must have been an American Nazi bunch too,but it is probably squelched.

[alwynsw]

60. Not squelched very well.

the German-American Bund did it's part for Adolph throughout the war.

[Swede]

67. Was there an actual American division fighting?

I know individuals joined up. I know hatred of Communism was big,but I don't know of a Canadian division of the SS.

[alwynsw]

107. I've read nothing to verify it.

I have read of a number of U.S. citizens enlisting in the Wermacht.

I do know that there were quite a few fifth columnists in the Bund that did their thing here at home with intelligence, aiding spies, etc. Wasn't going to mention the money and propagana issues because I feel they're se;f-evident, but some may not know about those as well.

[Zuni]

111. The Bund was made illegal

and it was outlawed and many of the leaders arrested.

It lost it's popularity after the war started. I am not sure if it was illegal by Dec. 7, 1941 or if it was outlawed later.
I think it was before, because the US government was blatantly pro-allied even though officially neutral, just like in WWI until Pearl harbor.
I know an older man who was in the Navy in 1941, and for months before PH, his destroyer had orders to fire on any German submarine they encountered. Roosevelt was trying to provoke an incident with germany, not with japan.

[Swede]

43. There were Swiss,Norwegian,and Ukrainian SS too.

I think out of a population of millions it is not hard to find fuckers ready to kill. Croatia was Nazi,Serbs Communist but that was probably opportunism.

[JohnKleeb]

45. Well Tito himself was half Croatian but yes many Croats

sided with the Nazis. I am not sure what most of my people the Slovenes did, my mom's family though I know fought back, they were either with Draza Milohevic or Tito, I dont know who, I would think Tito though since Milohevic's Cetmiks were Serbs mostly and Monarchists, I dont know.

[Zuni]

48. The Croatian Ustasha

were among the very worst groups to come out of WWII. they were savage thugs at best.

[JohnKleeb]

52. Ante Pavelic was a bastard

My maternal grandmother's people the Slovaks mostly colleberated too sadly, Tiso :puke:. I am not sure how that side of the family was affected, I do know Sgt Strank, my relative who was killed on Iwo Jima was deeply affected by what happened in Europe and thats why he enlisted.

[Zuni]

50. don't forget Sweden

their neutral government supplied Hitler with all the hi grade iron ore and other raw materials he could carry back to Germany. Without Swedish material, Hitler's war machine would have ground to a halt.

[Swede]

56. What a black mark on "neutral" Sweden.

At least the Finns and Norges picked a side.

[JohnKleeb]

59. Norweigans were on the allies right?

I recall the Norweigan resistance was actually quite big. Well you know one of the biggest heroes of hte war I believe was a Swede, Raoul Wallenberg or whateverf.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

68. The French fought in Norway, too

A combined force of French, British, and Polish troops was landed in Norway to protect it from Hitler. At Narvik, there was a fairly bloody little campaign. And yes the Norwegians were allies and their resistance was very courageous. I love Norwegians.

[JohnKleeb]

70. I had no idea

Yes Ive herad some stuff about the Norweigan Resistance, brave. Then theres jerks like Vidkun Quiseling.

[Zuni]

81. Swedish Wallenberg was THE Hero of the Holocaust

he managed to save over 50,000 lives by handing out Swedish passports.
The Soviets killed him after the war.

[JohnKleeb]

83. Why did they do that?

[Zuni]

88. they were nasty fucks

and they probably thought his humanitarianism would continue. They didn't want loose cannons around when they put the smack down on Eastern Europe

[JohnKleeb]

90. They sure were, god I hate Stalin

I hate him soooooo much. Yeah that makes sense. Sure was a hero, he was born the same year as my grandmother I read, wish he could have lived the life she did, but he was an honorable guy who I know for certain is in a better place because of his deeds.

[Zuni]

86. The Finns fought w/ the nazis

but to be fair, the USSR attacked them first and bombed their towns and seized their territory.
The Finns only went so far. They did not move troops much farther than their pre-1939 borders and would not have any part with Nazi plans to 'scorch the earth' indiscriminatly.

They did let German Army forces station themselves to attack the USSR in Finland though.

[JohnKleeb]

87. Didnt the Finns win that war with Russia?

Ive told you before, I hate Stalin just as much as Hitler.

[Zuni]

89. No

They fought Russia for months and totally made fools out of the Soviets, killing more Soviet troops than Finland could even field in their whole army.
The Soviets overwhelmed them in Feburary 1940.

[JohnKleeb]

91. Oh oops

but yeah they made things interesting.

[alwynsw]

62. And - let's not even get started on the Swiss.

something about pillage and secret accounts...

[alwynsw]

35. True to a point.

I mainly remember the one who "crossed over" after the surrender. My dad and uncles had some tales to tell about filp-flopping allegiances with quite a few of them. But then, that happened in every european nation as well as here.

To this day, it's hard to know whether the Irish sided with the Germans or simply hated the Brits so much that they left the lights on at night throughout the blackout. Hell. Even my relatives in Ireland that were around in WW II don't know.

[Joe Chi Minh]

122. Churchill once

commented, I believe, on the enormous number of Irish soldiers who fought in the British army in both World Wars.

[Lone Pawn]

25. Had some freeper cousin try to tell a joke last thanksgiving,

"Hey--how many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? --None! It's never been tried!" Laughs at himself.

I look up and just say, "Will, in World War One, one million three hundred thousand French soldiers died defending their homes--successfully. That would about equal to the entire population, man, woman, and child, of the state of Idaho."

Man, did he look awkward.

[Swede]

34. How does this bullshit spread?

Are they willfully ignorant,or just fucking stupid?

[Robeson]

94. Both. And blindly so....

[Dukkha]

30. There are 5500 French soldiers in Afghanistan

http://www.centcom.mil/Operations/Coalition/Coalition_pages/france.htm

They're more dedicated to finding Bin Laden than the U.S.

[HEyHEY]

75. And they were in Nam before the Yanks

[HEyHEY]

77. While it took the USA 3 years to anti -up against HITLER

[JohnKleeb]

78. Stupid America First assholes

[Pooka Fey]

114. Watch your tone, buddy.

Some of us have family members who died fighting the Nazis. My uncle died June 22,1944; 79th Infantry Division, in the battle for Cherbourg. His grave is in Normandy. My father and all my other uncles served in the Pacific.

There were several reasons America didn't get involved right away; Churchill wanted to give the Americans some time fighting in Africa and Italy to battle harden the troops so that they could be tough enough to face the Germans in a major offensive. An invasion on that scale isn't thrown together overnight. My uncle's division, the 79th, started training in 1942 - 2 years before D-day.

[Zuni]

126. He means the 1939-1942 period

where many Americans fought to stay out of the war at all costs and Roosevelt had to do all kinds of political manueverings to break neutrality for lend-lease.

[Pooka Fey]

135. Oh. Thanks for shedding a little light on that heat.

[HEyHEY]

130. DOn't tell me to watch my tone

I'm not even talking about the soldiers I'm talking about Americans who get all pissed and pound their chest when it took the nation two years to finally fight the Nazis.

ANd many in my family fought in that war two okay.

[Zuni]

82. and didn't do much worse either

both our Vietnam and their Vietnam were hideous debacles of the 1st order

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

93. Actually, the French were fighting in four times the terrority

They were fighting in all of French Indochina, comprised of Cambodia, North Vietnam, South Vietnam, and Laos. And they had only a modest amount of air support.

[Zuni]

112. But most of the soldiers weren't actually french

they were in a large part composed of Foreign Legion, Morrocans, Algerians, other Africans, Vietnamese national units and other French Union forces. There were a lot of French troops, but I believe the majority were French Union forces.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

119. When you say Algerians, you are in part talking about French

At the time, Algeria had about 9 million of Arab, Kabyl or Berber origin, and about 1.5 million of European origin. The 1.5 million were French colonials, who had settled in Algeria from Europe. Actually, Algeria was considered by the French to be a part of metropolitain France, like Hawaii to the United States (the French didn't consider it to be just a colony). The French Army had special arab-speaking units, such as the Algerian "Goumiers" who played a strong role in driving the Germans out of Marseilles, as well as the Moroccan "Tabors". But the Algerian "Pieds Noirs" forces who helped liberate southern France during World War II were mostly non-Arab French-speaking Europeans who had settled in Algeria and from which the Free French army drew troops. At the time of the war in Indo-China, the Foreign Legion did play a large role. Many Legionnaires were ex German soldiers from the defunct German army.

[Zuni]

125. I am aware of the Pied Noirs

and Algeria was part of France, not a colony---hence the radical Pied Noir militias during the French-Algerian war later.
The Pied Noirs seem to me to be similar to the radical israeli settlers in Gaza and the west bank---and their utter refusal to recognize the independence of someone else's territories.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

92. And the French were the first to arrive in France on D-Day

The "Sky Batallions", two French paratroop battalions that had seen action in North Africa, made of a collection of several commando units were dropped into France on June, 5th 1944, the first to arrive. In fact, the first allied casualty of Operation Overlord was Corporal Emile Bouetard of the Sky Batallion. Also going ashore on D-Day was the No. 4 Commando of Free French under Captain Philippe Keiffer. Their participation in D-Day is documented in the film "The Longest Day".

Fighting alongside the French No. 4 Commando of Keiffer on D-Day was a Jewish Commando unit. This is one of the untold stories of the war and would deserve being made into a movie. When Hitler began persecuting the Jews, some Jewish parents began sending their children to England. During the war, these German Jewish boys volunteered for a special Commando unit. A separate Commando unit of German Jews was created and went ashore on D-Day. These were Germans fighting Germans.

[Zuni]

110. I thought the first Allied casualty on D-Day was Lt. Brotheridge

He was one of the glider commandos tasked with seizing the orne river and canal bridges. His glider unit was part of the British 6 Airborne division and he was in the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Regiment.
He was killed in the storming of the guard post on the bridge. That is also in 'The Longest Day'.

[JohnKleeb]

115. Its also in Ambrose's D-Day

I have both that and the Longest Day, and recommend both.

[Zuni]

129. read "the Longest Day'

and Cornelius Ryan's other two masterpieces, A Bridge Too Far (about Operation Market Garden and the disaster at Arnhem) and The Last Battle (about April/May 1945 and the Battle for Berlin)
His three books are among the very,very best of all books about WWII

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

118. The French also made a movie called the "Sky Batallion"

In the original French it's "Le Batallion Du Ciel" and it's about the first troops to bail out on D-Day. In fact, in "The Longest Day", you see them. They are the very first paratroopers in "The Longest Day" to bail out over France, with the Free French emblem on their shoulder. If you look at the movie "The Longest Day", you can see them bail out and bring materiel to the Resistance Fighters who are about to plant explosives on a railroad track. They arrive before the gliders and British and US paratroopers.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

124. And the Polish paratroopers

I should also add the Polish paratroopers who participated in D-Day. The contribution made by the Poles AFTER the fall of Poland is one of the great stories of heroism in World War II, one that is too often overlooked. I believe there were about 200,000 Poles in uniform who fought with the allies after Poland fell, who fought like absolute tigers.

[Zuni]

127. The Polish Para Brigade in Arnhem

is one of the saddest stories of all WWII. Those poor guys dropped right into the massacre.
The Poles fought with distinction in every allied theater. They even proved to be among the best resistance fighters, both in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising of '43 and the Warsaw Rebellion of '44. In fact, had Stalin not done everything he could to deny help to the Polish AK forces in August 1944, they very well may have been able to drive the Germans out of Warsaw early. Stalin essentially aided the Nazis in destroying the heroic Polish Home Army.

[Pooka Fey]

113. Don't forget the American and British Paratroopers right behind 'em

who dropped into France in the wee early a.m. hours on D-Day;

The American 82nd and 101st airborne divisions, dropped into a deliberately inundated zone at the base of the Cotentin Peninsula, suffered many casualties by drowning but nevertheless secured their objective. The British 6th Airborne Division seized its unflooded objectives at the eastern end more easily, and its special task force also captured key bridges over the Caen Canal and Orne River.

[HEyHEY]

134. Let's not forget Juno

WHere the Canadians were massacreed but still managed to make it further inland than any other nation that day

[imenja]

95. The Republicans talking heads are idiots

They know nothing about history. They pick out a few isolated slogans (we liberated the French from the Nazis, etc...) and don't consider the longer context of French history or US relations with the country (French assistance in our own war of independence, for example).

[Vogon_Glory]

98. Conservatives Don't Read History

"Amurrican" "conservatives" don't read history--either ours or anybody else's. So how would a bunch of ditto-heads or Hannity-ized sheeple be expected to understand the traumas caused by two world wars when the last blood-shedding in the English-speaking Americas on that scale is over 140 years in the past? "Amurrican" conservatism thrives on pig-ignorance, arrogance, and blind trust in smooth-talking flim-flam ideologues.

What makes me extremely unhappy is that while these people will get their reality check someday, the rest of us will have to suffer for their conceits as well.

:argh: :grr: :argh: :grr: :argh: :grr:

[Joe Chi Minh]

123. But they aren't

conservatives any more in either of our countries, the UK or the USA, are they. They're Vandals. Corporatist vandals. Destroy! Destroy! Destroy! Plunder! Plunder! Plunder!

[Anarcho-Socialist]

100. What about the French intervention in the War of Independence?

Could the Patriots have won without them? I can't be so sure.

[Pooka Fey]

117. The Americans wouldn't have stood a chance without the French in that war.

Without the French supplying munitions, we wouldn't have lasted more than a few months. The Americans spent most of the early war years losing battles and making the British troops chase them through forests, making them use up their food supplies. The Americans were brave, they were simply outmatched; they weren't pro soldiers, nor did they have decent supplies - many were cold, barefoot, and starving. France required a major American victory before she would become involved in another war with England. Once George Washington and the Americans delivered it at Saratoga in 1777, she allowed herself to be persuaded to throw in her hat with the rebels.

The decisive victory of the war was at Yorktown in 1781, it was a combination of French and American land forces combined with the French navy which surrounded the British and forced their surrender. The Americans didn't even have a navy.

Most decidedly, the French won our revolution for us; to be perfectly honest. This is not for any lack of courage on the part of the Americans, just that we were too new and undeveloped to prevail against the largest military in the world at that time.

[Mich Otter]

101. The French were right about the WMDs

Anytime I hear anyone bashing the French for their "Lack of support" in our invasion of Iraq, I remind them that the French were right. If we had worked with them, (and the other nations), we would not have this mess and the deaths we have in Iraq.

[datasuspect]

102. d'accord!

[Aristus]

105. Consider too, the psychological factors in such staggering losses.

All those hundreds of thousands of young men lost. Not just lost to their country's war effort, but to their country's future as well. All those young boys who would never live to father children and raise families. All those young fathers whose children would never see them again. All those farmers and workers and poets and artists and musicians. Lost to their country forever.

Any wonder why the French search for diplomatic solutions before rattling the saber of war? It's not cowardice. They've proven their bravery.

And look at us; 58,000 men lost during Vietnam, and from 1973 until 2003 (only took thirty years to forget)our national consciousness screamed "NO MORE VIETNAMS!" No more getting our young men (and now women) involved in unwinnable wars against people who are no threat to us. No more losses to the families of bright-eyed boys, eager to serve their country, and dying for a cause unworthy of their bravery.
Was "No More Vietnams!" the rallying cry of cowards? I don't think so.

God have mercy on all our souls for the foul sin we've perpetrated upon the people of Iraq and the rest of the world.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

108. I will be in Paris Thursday,

and I will pass on your kind comments.

[Joe Chi Minh]

120. And De Gaulle,

who had next to NO power base, somehow managed to finesse Churchill and Roosevelt into, if not quite accepting him as their equal, almost, as well as accepting the "faite accompli" of a French government already up and running again, straight after the war; when Roosevelt had had other plans.

Eisenhower's son, a very impressive man, himself, was tickled pink at the De Gaulle's chuzpah and finesse - judging from a cable programme on the subject. It really was an incredible feat on De Gaulle's part, though truth to tell, Churchill recognised him for the colossus he was, however much he complained about him; and tended to support him, until Roosevelt's anger became intolerable. When listening to De Gaulle's speech to his countrymen at the end of the war, evidently expressing gratitude and magnanimity to the Allied leaders, Churchill shed silent tears as he listened. When Lord Ismay kidded him about it, he bellowed "What! Have you no sentiment! You great tub of lard!" Great stuff.

But that was Churchill, encouraging others to defying the protocols of chains of command and pecking orders, when so much was at stake, if they had something valuable to contribute. Orde-Wingate, who set up the "chindits" (irregulars, behind Japanese lines), was another visionary protege. Much to the rancour of his superiors, as a fairly junior officer, he was told by Churchill he could get in touch with him directly at any time.

[Zuni]

128. De Gaulle was a genius

but he was among the hardest men in the world to get along with.

[Joe Chi Minh]

139. Spot on, Zuni.

[Neshanic]

137. 9,000 collaborators summarily executed, 40,000 sentenced to

prison or hard labor, 768 executed after the war.

The French do not screw around. I have always respected their culture.