What's your opinion of St. Patrick?

[nuxvomica]

I read How the Irish Saved Civilization a few years ago and it taught me that St. Patrick deserves a lot more respect than he is usually accorded. A former slave himself, he was the first known figure in Western history to condemn slavery for it's own sake. His conversion of the Irish to Christianity was more successful than previous attempts because he didn't insist the Irish give up many of their pagan ways as long as they treated each other well (ie. stopped murdering or enslaving each other) and did good works. Maybe this Patrician philosophy led to the "green martyrdom" and the preservation of ancient texts that were being destroyed on the European mainland by the morally strict Augustinians. Without this preservation, maybe there would have been no Renaissance or subsequent Enlightenment So maybe our modern world would be a poorer place without St. Patrick. What do you think?

[stellanoir]

1. personally

I like snakes but loathe slavery so I'm a bit mixed.

[nuxvomica]

2. No evidence that he actually drove out the snakes

But it may refer to the driving out of Druids who had snake-like tattoos. That I learned from a post on another thread.

[Hobarticus]

4. I've also read that it's a metaphor...

St. Patrick may not have actually 'driven' anybody out of Ireland, but over the years it's been heralded by religious writers that he 'drove evil' out of Ireland, and evil's since been personified in the form of snakes.

[Book Lover]

15. Not "evil", just the old culture

That part of the world never had snakes. The story is a metaphor for the destruction of the old culture.

[Spinzonner]

3. Raises my Eire

[dbt]

5. Tweet! Foul!

:spank:

[Ryano42]

6. Obviously...

One of the greatest goalies ever...

Only three-time Conn Smythe (Playoff MVP) trophy winner...4 Stanley Cups...

:P

[TahitiNut]

7. He was British.

:shrug:

[AntiCoup2K4]

8. Never really thought much about it....

....for me, it's all about the Guinness :beer:

[Skittles]

9. my mum is called Pat after St. Patrick

her dad called her that because of her temper. My mum kept it because she has always despised her real name (Ivy). :D

[Bridget Burke]

10. There were Christians in Ireland before Patrick...

Bob Quinn's "The Atlantean Irish: Ireland's Oriental and Maritime Heritage" shows evidence of Christianity coming to Ireland through maritime routes extending to Morocco & through the Mediterranean to Egypt, where Coptic Christianity flourished. (Many early Church Fathers lived in North Africa.)

Patrick brought official Roman Christianity to the Island but the Irish Church retained its eccentricities--Rome was dealing with Barbarians, etc., & was unable to exert much power. And the Irish Church later benefited from seaborne contact with the rich culture of Moorish Spain. Eventually, the Irish Church was "Romanized" but retained some national character until the seminaries were closed by England. For many years, Irish priests were trained in French & Spanish seminaries who taught a rather grim version of the faith.

Patrick, himself, was probably a real historical character although his biography has been embellished with legend. The conversion of Ireland continued with no evidence of violence. The Irish undertook "The White Martyrdom" (exile) because there were NO "real" Irish martyrs. (Well, there may have been some since then. But that's a different story.)

[nuxvomica]

11. Interesting stuff

Sounds like Quinn's book would be a good adjunct to Cahill's. I can't seem to find it at Amazon. Is it only available in Ireland?

[Bridget Burke]

12. I ordered it directly from the Publisher with no problem.

I'd read about a previous edition, but it was out of print & available for a hideous amount at Alibris. This edition was announced on Quinn's website; I emailed him & he told me when it was due.

So--here it is:

www.lilliputpress.ie/listbook.html?isbn=1%2084351%20024%203

[jswordy]

13. PATRON SAINT OF ANHUESER-BUSCH, I heard! LOL!

[giant_robot]

14. Well, I can't say I'm well versed in the history of St. Patrick...

...but I am against turning lusty Pagans into repressed Roman Catholics.

[nuxvomica]

16. Sure it looks bad when you put it that way

But I don't think he tried to repress their Irish spirit so much as to get them to stop fighting each other.

edit: stuttered.

[JohnKleeb]

17. Patron Saint of Ireland

Ive heard about that book btw. I respect him as a fellow Catholic and he seems like a good guy too.

[nuxvomica]

22. I think you'd find the Cahill book interesting, Kleeb

It's a good read and says a lot about Irish history and Catholicism. BTW, Happy St. Pat's day to you!

[Stop_the_War]

18. Good ol' St. Patrick !

:P

I'm Irish and this is very interesting to moi. I do not dislike St. Patrick but I think that about the Troubles and the Protestant/Catholic conflict I have to wonder what it would be like if Irish were still pagan. Our modern world would not a poorer place without St. Patrick because it wasn't just the Europeans that participated in the Renaissance, there was the Arab world, which made several advancements in mathematics and science such as algebra, without the mathematical advancements of the Muslim world, I doubt we would have such things as computers or the Internet.

[nuxvomica]

20. I suspect the Irish would've been converted without St. Patrick

But according to Cahill, he didn't insist that they give up all their traditions or impose too strict a moral code. His influence, of course, will probably always be subject to debate because we know so little from that period.

[JohnKleeb]

21. Dude you know the English, they would have looked for another reaon

to give the Irish. Remember the troubles started before reformation. Sorry I didn't expand on this more but the English have been interested in Ireland since around the time of Edward I at least. Granted its been a little more hostile since the conversion of the English to Anglicanism but its not just about religion really in Northern Ireland, theres a lot of economic issues at stake there too.

[bigwillq]

19. Just another excuse to drink!

I love thee St. Patrick!:beer:

[LostInAnomie]

23. My middle name is Patrick because of him.

And to honor him, I would be sloppy drunk right now. If only I didn't have to go to work later.

[lumberingbear]

24. Happy St Pat's Day Everyone !!!