Please don't kill me

[GirlinContempt]

I have a question that I considered taking to GD but thought better of it. And I may end up thinking better of asking it all together after this, but its worth a shot:

Do you think religion has a place in politics? A little? A lot? None at all? Why?

I ask this because I find it hard to really understand a lot of the debate that goes on, as it's not something I've ever really thought about or been confronted with on a scale such as I see in the American media. I'm honestly interested in peoples opinions.

Please don't kill me.

[blackcat77]

1. Religion has a place in peoples' LIVES

And -- in theory at least -- the people choose our representatives. Therefore, religion will always be a factor in politcs.

And there's not a thing wrong with that. Religion is not inherantly good or bad.

[GirlinContempt]

12. I suppose I should have been more clear

But I didn't want to sound like I was on one side or another.

I sort of meant beyond the obvious picking a candidate that is, well, the person you agree with most, as as your opinions are going to be influenced by your religion or lack of, then yeah it plays a part.

[Redstone]

2. Your timing is off...

People in the Lounge have had far too much to drink, for the most part, by this time of night to be able to deal with such weighty matters.

Redstone

[GirlinContempt]

13. Curses

[BurtWorm]

3. Where have you been?

We missed you. Welcome back! :hi:

As for your question, it's given way too much place in American politics. It's used to cover over some nasty business with a little wink and nod to heavens. It makes children out of us.

[GirlinContempt]

10. Let me tell you where I've been

I moved to Montreal in the hopes of brushing up my practical French, only to find out the only phrases I needed/used were:

Olivia vous arrêteriez cela déjà! - Olivia, stop that already!

Juste cinq minutes supplémentaires et alors nous allons à la maison - Just five more minutes and then we're going home

C'est tout que vous obtenez pour le dîner, mangez ou mourez de faim - That is all you are getting for dinner, eat it or starve

Pas maintenant, Olivia! - Not now, Olivia!

maintenant, Olivia! - Now Olivia!

Venez ici - Come here

I was working as a live-in nanny. Then I moved to Toronto. Then back home to Winnipeg, then job hunting, lecturing, getting engaged, getting dumped. Aaaaand I think you're up to date now.

And, thanks for the answer to my question.

[BurtWorm]

21. I knew you were a nanny.

Or a dog sitter. ;)

Nice to have you back, girl. (Sorry you got dumped.)

[GirlinContempt]

27. Thanks :)

Getting dumped is good for the mind.

Lets you know how stupid your choices are in an easy to understand way.

[tavalon]

4. We're descended from puritans

whether it should or shouldn't, in America it will. It doesn't help that the emotional age of this country is mid adolescence.

[GirlinContempt]

19. If I'd behaved like that

When I was in my mid-teens, my friends would have laughed in my face.



hmmmmm.... ideas are a-formatin'....

[Little Wing]

5. Hrm. Yes and no.

I don't think religion has any more business dictating politics than politics has dictating religion.

But religion, politics, economics and even the weather all have tremendous effect on our lives as individuals and as communities. I think it's wrong not to expect that there will be some overlap, and I think it would be very wrong to inhibit discussion of any of these things or other important influences in society.

All that said, discussion and debate is a good thing, but too often that's not even close to what happens. People these days seem to have a pathological need to behave like asses toward one another.

A woman I know from Turkey once told a parable about a 'tree with no branches.' That's how we come to see one another. No matter what side one falls on the divide the other side is all black or all white and anyone with the most remote trace of compassion for them could not possibly be one of us.

That's not the fault of religion or politics. That is the fault of people behaving like asses.

[GirlinContempt]

14. Weeellllll.....

I'll keep my atheist rhetoric to myself on this one :)

[Little Wing]

18. Ah. I see.

So you've decided I'm one of them have you? :)

[GirlinContempt]

22. Nah

I just would take that off on a whole different tangent that wouldn't really encourage people to post, as I am objectivly interested and am not asking for the sake of either picking fights or wanking my wannabe-intellectual opinions with the help of 40 yesmen.

That was a LONG sentence.

[intheflow]

6. Religion has a place in politics

only inasmuch as people are shaped by, and form opinions based on, their own personal religious beliefs. Since people make up the political scene, then yes, religion has a place in politics.

But religion in politics like a theocracy? Whereby someone can pass a law requiring me to believe as they do, or at least behave by their moral religious code? No fucking way.

[GirlinContempt]

11. I think I agree

[Make7]

7. As long as it's the right one - sure it can play a part, why not? n/t

[GirlinContempt]

15. *smirk*

[enigmatic]

8. It's a good question, and I might add..

That the fact that you're scared of posting it in GD pretty much tells us everything we need to know about the mentality of GD right now...

[GirlinContempt]

16. Oh, its not even just right now

I remember one of my first posts, before I even used this screen name I think, and I got flamed to death in about 5 minutes for saying something like "If believing in the things America supposedly stands for is anti-American, I guess I hate America"

At the time it had a point.

My hair stank like burning for WEEKS though, that smell just doesn't go away.

[enigmatic]

24. Hey, I understand..

Like I said in another post, the lot of them on all sides of the political/religous debate along w/ the "I'm being persucuted" crowd need to log off the pc and rejoin Planet Earth, pronto.

[GirlinContempt]

29. Sounds like it

[Schema Thing]

9. I started to kill you

But then a hand came down from the heavens and stayed my death stroke.

So now I'm really conflicted on this topic :(

[GirlinContempt]

17. Sweet.

Glad to know my homeboy is still lookin' out for me.

[Schema Thing]

23. your homeboy?

Damn! I thought it was Jeehover God Hisownbadself.

Well, in that case..., I guess I'm not conflicted anymore. NO FUCKING RELIGION IN POLITICS!!!! <:bad:> O8)

[GirlinContempt]

26. Damn rights!

[Schema Thing]

36. GRRRRRR(L).... foiled by the Nazarene again! ooohRoscoPColtrainE!

[GirlinContempt]

45. haha

[Kenneth ken]

20. no

but then, I have no religion.

Politics should be about people deciding for themselves what is best for the overall society they live in. Te best for the society as a whole.

When people integrate the compassion and caring which most religions teach into their thinking of what constitutes a 'best for society' solution to a question, that is as much as religion should impinge on politics.

But to pick phrases and ideas out of a religious based book and champion them simply because they came from the book is stifling, and doesn't allow for the ever-changing circumstance of a given society. Humans have brains and the capacity to think. That capacity should not be shackled to the limits of millenia-old knowledge and views.

[GirlinContempt]

25. Follow up question

Would you agree or disagree with the following statements:

“The said truth is that it is the greatest happiness of the greatest number that is the measure of right and wrong.”

--Jeremy Bentham

“Whenever the general disposition of the people is such, that each individual regards those only of his interests which are selfish, and does not dwell on, or concern himself for, his share of the general interest, in such a state of things, good government is impossible.”

--John Stuart Mill

[Kenneth ken]

33. I will agree with both those

though, I dislike the way people talked - or at least wrote - in those times. :D

I should not have to translate English, or decipher it.

The said truth ?

Compassion means "suffering with" which means trying to put yourself in another person's place and think about how you would feel in a given situation.

[GirlinContempt]

41. Hey hey now

Thats not THEIR fault ;)

[Lorien]

28. No. n/t

[bobthedrummer]

30. Thou shall not kill.

:hi:

[GirlinContempt]

31. Care to elucidate?

[bobthedrummer]

34. No.

[GirlinContempt]

35. o....kay.... well, thanks for comin out

[bobthedrummer]

38. Thanks.

[EstimatedProphet]

32. No, it doesn't IMO

Religion is a belief system, meaning it requires a certain amount of faith that the belief is true, regardless of hard evidence. It doesn't belong in politics, because politics, like many other human endeavors, requires specific actions and concepts based on realistic appraisals of situations. Politics is about the concrete-how can we govern the population for the good of society. You can't base political plans on faith-you have to have some grounding in reality.
Religion has a place in ethics, and values, and guidance for people. The nutcases that are trying to force their own religion on politics and everyone else in the world aren't interested in the truth, or in what is best for society. They just want to control everyone.

[GirlinContempt]

37. Well put

[hfojvt]

44. except that is part of the conflict

Not only the "means" question - how to create the social good?
but the "ends" question - how do we define the social good?
I believe that there is no answer to the 2nd question which does not depend on faith rather than hard evidence. "Hard evidence" cannot answer that type of question. Political plans depend heavily on faith (values) because the key question is "where are we going?" rather than "how do we get there?"

[WilliamPitt]

39. There's no separating them.

Understand: One of the most important political decisions in the last 1,000 years happened when the Founders delineated the absolute separation of church and state. They didn't do it for shits and giggles; that whole crew learned good lessons from whatching the rule and fall of the absolute monarchs on the British throne, the Stuarts. Read Locke; it's the manifesto from that revolution, and the basis for ours.

What I'm saying is twofold: 1) Those guys saw what happens when religion gets into the same applecart as the state. It was a tremendous victory and a huge example of enlightened foresight for them to do that.

2) They did it because religion will never be outside of politics. Religion is the psychological prism through which billions of people percieve the world, to one degree or another. The people who have religion shaping their world view should not be despised or looked down upon for a variety of reasons, the most cynical but perhaps salient reason being that there are way, way more of them than there are of anyone else. Not even Solomon could split this baby. It is what it is.

The shit we're dealing with isn't new for America, or for history. Think Constantine of old, and William Jennings Bryan more recently. Gimme that old-time religion...

Oh, wait. This is the Lounge. Sorry.

:)

[GirlinContempt]

40. I get where you're coming from

I don't despise or look down upon anyone based on their religion. However, it's this attitude, this unbending stance that screams out "I am right, you are wrong. I know what God thinks. My God is the right God. This isn't an opinion. This should shape everyones world". And it's not even close to the majority of religious people that believe that, however, the most vocal, the most outrageous are those that get noticed. And they're the ones who bring the debate to the front. I suppose part of my question really is, where is the line? Should the line be there? Do the politicians have an obligation to uphold the ideals of the Founders in this respect?

[WilliamPitt]

42. Religion divides.

Period. Religion is run by human beings, and there is a kind of human being that seeks power for its own sake. There are also a lot of people who just want to follow, to have something to believe in that is bigger than themselves. Combine power-seekers, followers and powerful religions dogma, doctrine and teachings.

That does not invalidate religions per se, because every religion also has many adherents who follow the tenets of their faith properly, justly, and in ways that better themselves and those around them. Put it this way: If this *really* was a Christian nation, there wouldn't be millions of people without access to medical care.

"If any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you." - Matthew

But it is the power-seekers, and the followers too eager to take 'Hate thy neighbor' as gospel, that screw everything up.

Regardless, you'll never get it out of politics.

[GirlinContempt]

43. I don't disagree

*trying to keep posts... vauge*