These kids today--but this really disturbed me.

[blondeatlast]

Today I saw a girl, in 4th grade, wearing a t-shirt that had emblazoned across her lacking chest--

SEXY.

This was at the school she and my son attend.

I did nothing, said nothing, but it just gave me the creeps.

Am I hopelessly out of touch, or do others feel as I do?

[WindRavenX]

1. Nope, it pisses me off

Just the further objectification and sexualization of women. This patriarchal society doesn't wish to think of women in terms of actually being human; just sex toys for men.

[BamaLefty]

9. Excellent Point

[skygazer]

2. That's just too gross

And her parents should be slapped upside the head for allowing her to even own it, let alone wear it to school. :wtf:

[Name removed]

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[blondeatlast]

11. I take it you aren't a parent?!

:hi:

[Pool Hall Ace]

25. Can't speak for Goldmund, but I'm not a parent

and I think it's disgusting. Same deal with the family we met at the beach with a 10-year-old girl wearing a LITTLE TEASER tee-shirt.

Some parents need to work on saying, "No" more often.

[Goldmund]

45. I;m 6'4'', 185 lbs, blue eyes, brown hair

not a parent.

Any other stats you want? :)

[redqueen]

89. I don't think she was particularly interested in your stats.

It's just that some people don't really think these things through until they have children. Some don't even get it unless they have a female child.

Sad.

[Goldmund]

187. And some just disagree.

What a concept, huh? :)

[redqueen]

188. For subjective issues, that's fine.

This isn't one, IMO.

[Goldmund]

189. Is that not a contradiction?

"This isn't subjective, IMO" :D

I don't think that any single issue deserves being considered absolute and beyond discussion.

[redqueen]

191. 9 year olds having sex

is that something that's not absolutely beyond discussion?

And no, that's not a contradiction. :)

[Goldmund]

192. There goes redqueen the shock-jock again.

That's not what we're talking about.

[redqueen]

193. I'm on a tangent.

"I don't think that any single issue deserves being considered absolute and beyond discussion."

Trying to get a retractment of the above statement.

[Goldmund]

194. You ain't getting it.

The principle of free thought is a principle not succeptible to exceptions. It's not "free thinking, except here". It's free thinking, period.

So, it's not beyond discussion, though I suspect that anybody who would claim that 9-year olds having sex would be a-okay would have their arguments shot down in a hearbeat.

[redqueen]

195. So 'free thinking' means you entertain idiotic notions?

Oh, I get it. I get that it's a completely unrealistic concept. Idiotic, even.

[Goldmund]

196. Among other things, yes.

Otherwise, the only difference between you and a fundie is the level of absolutism, not the fundamentals of thought.

[redqueen]

198. "Fundamentals of thought"

What does that mean?

Being a fundie is fine with me, if what you're fundie about is objective reality.

[Goldmund]

200. Fundamentals of thought --

-- meaning, not a set of particular positions or beliefs, but thought patterns which you use to arrive to your conlusions and justify your beliefs.

"Being a fundie is fine with me, if what you're fundie about is objective reality."

Are you telling me you don't see the irony?

[CO Liberal]

202. And YOU Don't See The Irony....

...of you telling people their though processes are faulty when you've been defending an indefensible position all day?

[Goldmund]

204. I didn't use the word "faulty" anywhere.

What I said was that calling some qualitative position absolute is an equivalent thought process to the fundamentalist. Accusing somebody of a "faulty" position would be doin exactly the same as I'm accusing them (you) of.

Speaking of irony, your phrase "defending an indefensible" speaks for itself.

[redqueen]

205. You're really into word games.

But nice chatting with you anyway.

[Goldmund]

206. If that's your preferred way of condescending, cool.

[redqueen]

207. Not condescending.

Just not into playing word games to try to communicate why certain things are, in and of themselves, and with no other argument necessary, 100% wrong.

[Goldmund]

208. I am not playing word games.

By any stretch whatsoever. When I said I didn't use the word "faulty" I didn't mean "I used the word <insert synonym> instead", I meant that I didn't accuse anybody of having a "faulty" position. My whole argument is that there is no such thing as a faulty position.

"in and of themselves, and with no other argument necessary, 100% wrong."

I don't know why we're having this discussion then.

You're advocating a skinny Bible.

I'm advocating no Bible at all.

[redqueen]

209. Well said!

I disagree that there is no such thing as a faulty position. That about sums it up.

[Goldmund]

210. However,

there is such a thing as having mutually exclusive positions within the same belief system.

So what I'm saying is: looking forward to seeing you in a thread about the religious right's latest hits.

[redqueen]

211. Why?

I comment on their stuff all the time. What are you alluding to?

[Goldmund]

212. You really don't see?

I'm not even "alluding". I thought I was totally blunt.

"in and of themselves, and with no other argument necessary, 100% wrong"

This thought pattern is how the religious right justifies doing most of what they do.

For example, being gay: "with no other argument necessary, 100% wrong".

Now, before you go into shock-jock mode, I'm not equating being gay with 9-year-olds having sex (which I agree is 'wrong', though as with everything else, in principle, not beyond discussion). I'm not even equating being gay with 9-year-olds wearing silly t-shirts.

I'm only challenging that the notion of absolute unquestionable undiscussible right and wrong can live peacefully in the same belief system as progressivism.

[redqueen]

215. LOL... "in principle, not beyond discussion"

Yes, the notion can exist in the same belief system as progressivism. :)

[Goldmund]

216. As I said,

I'll see you in a discussion about the religious right. :)

[redqueen]

219. I still don't get what you mean by that.

:shrug:

[Goldmund]

220. Now I don't get why you don't get what I mean

Somebody here is having a brainfart, not sure if it's me or you. :shrug:

[redqueen]

223. Well what I think you mean

is that somehow by having absolute beliefs, that I'm like them... but since IMO there are absolute truths, then it really doesn't follow, unless you could somehow catch me in some contradiction (e.g. pro-life but pro-death penalty).

However, I'm not sure.

[Goldmund]

225. no, no

I'm not saying you're like them. At all. I actually had a disclaimer a few posts ago making sure you don't misunderstand.

The contradiction that I suspect I can catch you in (and this is, obviously, speculation at this point) isn't in holding inconsistent positions on two particular issues. It is in the way you will justify your opposition to the right's moral legislating. You will reject their "it's just plain wrong, no discussion" (or maybe 'the Bible says so' instead of 'no discussion') argument and say "don't push YOUR morality down MY throat", implying that what they think is "plain wrong, no discussion" is in fact only THEIRS. Ergo, "I don't accept your absolutism; morality is relative." At least on that issue.

And then I'll remind you that you do in fact accept absolutism, except that you, being a much more sensible human being, apply it much more rarely.

And that ultimately, "don't shove YOUR morality down MY throat" would ring empty -- since you, being an absolutist, believe that there are things which require no justification; you just don't think that they are the PARTICULAR things they believe in.

Alright, too much time on DU for now... I'm taking a break. :hi:

[redqueen]

230. Thanks for clarifying.

However, for when you get back... :)

I don't use such non-arguments. I wouldn't just say 'don't push your morality down my throat'. I'd ask why they were against it, and if they didn't have a good reason, well then ...

I believe in absolutism, but only on certain issues. :hi:

[Goldmund]

231. Haven't left yet

"I'd ask why they were against it, and if they didn't have a good reason, well then ..."

In other words, you'd reject their "it's just wrong, no discussion" argument -- you'd say "OK, but let's discuss it". Which is exactly what I did in this thread.

Now I'm really leaving. :)

[redqueen]

232. Yeah, but then I gave you a good reason.

Bladow! ;)

[CO Liberal]

217. In a World of Shades of Gray, There Still Are Blacks and Whites

There are some principles and concepts that are completely right or completly wrong. And there are others that are open to interpretation and discussion.

That being said, there's no denying that most people believe that it's wrong for a 4th-grade girl to be wearing a shirt that says "SEXY".

Pure and simple.

[Goldmund]

218. "there's no denying that most people believe that it's wrong"

I agree there. In this place at this time in history, that's true.

There's also little denying that most people either voted for Bush or didn't vote at all.

But I think that we need to look past saying things are "right" and "wrong" and see what underlying phenomena they're manifesting.

[CO Liberal]

221. No We Don't

All we need to do is admit the fact that 4th-graders should not be wearing sexually provocative clothing to school.

That's a no-brainer, IMHO.

[Goldmund]

222. OK, if you choose to "no-brain" an issue.

I don't. I don't accept anything as axiomatic and I apply my brain to every issue.

[CO Liberal]

226. To EVERY Issue????

Do you actually apply your brain to deciding on whether or not to take each and every breath? Do you make a conscious decision to place one foot in front of the other to walk? or do you hust do what comes naturally?

Well, it's natural for me (as a parent) to want to protect children - even those who aren't mine. That's why I say this is a no-brainer.

[Goldmund]

228. I also want to protect children.

But if you read my posts in this thread you'll realize that I think that they are being hurt by attitudes like yours. Not intentionally, of course -- I know you mean well.

[CO Liberal]

234. Kids Are being Hurt By PROTECTING THEM????

Gimme a break!

[Goldmund]

246. Man, come on...

:eyes:

[CO Liberal]

213. You've Been Implying That Our Reasoning Is Faulty All Day

Simply because we disagree with you.

And I used that phrase on purpose, to highlight the irony of you calling something an irony.

[Goldmund]

214. No I haven't.

[CO Liberal]

227. Yes, You Have

You've presented yourself as if you have all the answers on this issue. And believe me - I don't think you do.

[Goldmund]

229. Excuse me for expressing my opinion.

And excuse me for attempting to express my justification.

[CO Liberal]

233. And Excuse ME For Thinking You're Wrong

M'kay?

[Goldmund]

247. I don't think I need to --

since I never accused you of pretending you have all the answers or whatever.

[Left Is Write]

38. You don't find it just a bit creepy and disturbing

that a little girl is advertising herself as "sexy"?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[Left Is Write]

50. It's more than a "damn t-shirt", it's the sexualization of little kids.

And yeah, "sexy" across a t-shirt is "advertising", whether it is intended to be or not.

I know how excited little girls are about growing up and being allowed to do grown up things. I was a little girl once.

But there's nothing "sexy" about a nine-year-old. And there *shouldn't* be anything "sexy" about a nine-year-old.

[Name removed]

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[Left Is Write]

56. The fact that such clothing is marketed to little kids - young children -

is the sexualization of little kids. The external sexualization of little kids - not the little kids themselves exploring newfound feelings.

The outrage is not for a little girl experimenting. It's for a corporate society that would exploit her. That's what's disturbing. That's what's creepy.

[Goldmund]

59. That same corporate world is exploiting her...

...when they're selling NSYNC to her, when they're bombarding her with mindless cultural junk, etc.

In addition, they're exploiting adults in a million other ways. But that's a problem of commercial exploitation.

Do you really think that on balance, American culture pushes sex onto little kids more than it supresses any thought of sexuality they may have?

[Left Is Write]

60. Yes, I do. It's pushed everywhere.

Music, games, toys, books, clothing. Little kids are in a hurry to grow up and some people seem in a hurry to let them.

Corporate American may exploit us adults too, but little kids have no real defenses. I do not think it's okay to market sexiness to small children. I have children ranging in age from three to eighteen. What is okay for my eighteen-year-old daughter may not be okay for my five-year-old daughter.

[Name removed]

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[Left Is Write]

64. 20- and 30-year-olds DO wear shirts that say "Sexy."

And "Princess" and "You Wish" and "Hottie" and any number of other similar sayings.

I don't think the little girl is counter-reacting to anything. I've BEEN a little girl. I know what it's like to have those interesting, funny, strange, and exciting new feelings inside. But I wouldn't have understood the concept of "sexy" as a nine-year-old, even if I was having what could have been described as "sexy" feelings. Most nine-year-olds are not sophisticated enough to translate such confusing new feelings into an attempt to thumb their noses at a society that is "repressing" them.

It is wrong, period, to market overt adult sexuality to young children. I'm not going to try dissuading you from your opinion, and it's clear we'll never agree.

For what it's worth, I have parents who were very open about sexuality, and I've been open with my own children. I have a lovely grown child who'd probably tell you we have a good, solid relationship in part because I don't "freak out" about stuff. My opinion is not coming from a place of repression or prudishness.

[Name removed]

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[Left Is Write]

66. Adult sexuality.

Adult expressions of sexuality. Calling oneself "sexy," for example.

Child sexuality is what you have hinted at: children discovering feelings about themselves and their bodies that may be confusing to them. It is not okay to exploit those feelings. Marketing "sexy" attire to little children does just that.

Read the post below on encouraging pedophilia for yet another perspective on the exploitation and sexualiation of children.

The fact that you have "little respect" for my argument/opinion signals to me that any further exchange here is futile. I thought the discussion was interesting, but I have a hard time engaging in discourse with someone who has admitted a lack of respect for my side of the argument.

[Goldmund]

69. Chill.

I obviously have much respect for your side of the argument, otherwise I wouldn't have spent so much time and energy discussing it with you. I simply pointed out your "it's wrong, period" argument as one I thought was weak -- I'm very aware that our culture considers these things "wrong, period", but this whole discussion is about challenging (or accepting) some cultural axioms. Saying "it's wrong, period" is like saying "my argument is self-evident", and that's what I rejected. And that's ALL I meant. So, sorry if I was unclear -- I utterly respect your argument, and I respect the fact that you're discussing a topic that most people would refuse to even approach because of their perception of self-sufficiency of their side of this argument, and their perception that this issue has only a singular valid resolution.

[redqueen]

91. Nice retraction via word salad.

You said 'big deal' when the subject was mentioned. It IS a big deal.

Glad you accept that you were wrong before.

[Goldmund]

94. Eh?

I don't get what you were saying.

My whole argument is that it is NOT big deal and that the whole reason this girl is wearing this shirt is because of y'all who are MAKING IT a big deal.

The last post was not a retraction, but a clarification that my lack of respect was not for the argument in general but for the part of its justification that went "it's wrong, period".

I don't get what "retraction" you're refering to.

[redqueen]

99. So then you maintain that sexualizing children isn't a big deal?

Got it. Nothing more to say to you. Thanks.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

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[redqueen]

103. There is no sexuality in a 9 year old.

Puberty usually starts around four years later.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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[redqueen]

113. No, magically, sexuality happens. During puberty.

You can call it shallow... but it's just a fact.

Thinking about or being curious about sex and desiring / understanding it enough to engae it in are completely different things.

You keep wanting to make this about the 'wider definition'. It's not. The shirt that says "Sexy" isn't saying "I know I'm a female and I'm curious about what that means"... it's saying "I think other people find me sexy".

It think it's horrible that people can't figure out why it's not a good idea to talk frankly about sex around children. I don't agree that being discreet about sex around children before they are fully able to understand the way their emotions and other people's possibly horrid intentions may affect them is something that creates sexual degenration.

Of course it's something that they'll learn gradually as they grow up, that doesn't mean you should say "hey, if a 9 year old feels sexually attractive to other people and wants to advertise, it, that's fine and dandy!" IMO that's abdicating our responsibility as adults. Kids can't raise themselves. We are not hiding sex from them, we are limiting their exposure to it. 9 year olds shouldn't see it in movies. (Duh)

Do you think we should let 9 year olds use drugs, too, if they wish?

"I KNOW ABOUT SEX" is not the same as "I AM SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE TO OTHERS"

Do you not see a difference there?

[Name removed]

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[redqueen]

Interesting.

"Physical sexual maturity happens during puberty. Sexuality is inseparable from self-awareness."

I consider desire to be part of physical sexual maturity. Is this something that, to you, occurs before puberty? Because that t-shirt signals desire.

"The shirt that says "sexy" may say "fuck me" to most adults, but to that 9-year old, I doubt it. I think that it's simply a no-no concept for her, a daring thing. A declaration of awareness of sexuality."

True, but it encourages pedophiles. It encourages predators closer to her age that will try to con her into allowing them to use her as a disposable object. Do you disagree?

"This is the crux of our disagreement. I think that is the root of sexual degeneration. I grew up in Europe, where you could see porn movies in primetime on some channels. And where we had sex ed in 4th grade. And where most beaches are nude. And guess what? Nobody wore t-shirts that said "SEXY" at age 9. Most of us didn't have sex until we were at least 16 or 17, though there was no explicit pressure not to. Sex at 12, or 13, like it happens here in America (especially in the South, where -- you're guessing -- the environment is the most hostile toward sexuality) was a total sci-fi concept."

Interesting, but how's the situation with pedophilia in Europe, I wonder. It bothers me that older children and adults molest (rape) children much younger than they are.

""Do you think we should let 9 year olds use drugs, too, if they wish?"

Um, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Drugs are bad and will destroy you. Sex is the most natural part of a human being."

They are similar in that they are both activities which can be harmful (if you don't think sex can be harmful, well then I really don't know what to say to you). Drugs are natural and part of being an animal, let alone a human.

""I KNOW ABOUT SEX" is not the same as "I AM SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE TO OTHERS"

Do you not see a difference there?"

Yes, I see the difference. But can you see the issue in a light a little deeper and wider than your impulsive "oh, my!" reaction?"

Of course I can. However you seem to be ignoring the fact that sex can indeed be harmful, natural or not. Perhaps that is the reason why you're so dismissive of those who react with disgust and horror at that shirt and other symptoms of the sexualization of children.

[Name removed]

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[redqueen]

143. Ho-lee SHIT!

"1) 9-year old wanting a t-shirt that says "SEXY";
2) Conditions that lead to that 9-year old wanting the t-shirt.

Now, as far as 1), I've called it a degeneration -- I don't think it's a natural thing. I also don't think the shirt itself is a big deal, because it's only a small manifestation of a much bigger phenomenon."

I'm going to ignore this for now, because this other statment deserves MUCH more urgent attention.


"As far as it encouraging adult pedophiles, okay, fine, but I don't know that statistically this issue deserves this much discussion. I don't have any statistics on that, and neither do you, and of all the dangers that kids are exposed to, I don't know that wearing this shirt makes much of a difference. I highly doubt it. If it were so, I would definitely be against allowing kids to wear them, for purely practical reasons, like I'd be against them having honey on their fingers when they're playing around bee-hives."

You are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

I DO KNOW that statistically this issue deserves MUCH MORE discussion.

If you don't know the statistics, then look them up! For the love of God and all that's holy... how can you brush off such a life-shatteringly important issue with a 'I don't know it's that important'? And you're sitting there having this conversation, being completely unaware of the facts... I'm flabbergasted.

"It is estimated that 20 to 40 percent of adult women in the United States were sexually abused before the age of 18. For men, the range is 10 to 20 percent. That's 24 million to 48 million women and 11 million to 22 million men."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/03/INGN4C224F1.DTL

You can find the information EASILY. PLEASE, for the LOVE OF HUMANITY, DO IT, before having any more conversations like this!


"Now, 2). As I said, 1) is a manifestation of a bigger phenomenon. What phenomenon is that? According to you and pretty much everyone else on this thread, it is a supposed sexualization of kids. And that is what I find absurd. Hello? This America? Sexualizing? Kids??? That just kicks my ass. This America gets its collective panties in a wad from seeing a damn nipple during Super Bowl half-time!

And it wasn't even exposed really, it had that jewelry thingie over it!

Now, I'll agree with you that a 9-year old wearing this t-shirt is a result of a wrong apprach to sexuality. THAT we agree on."

We agree on all the above quoted.


"Now step back and think: what is the American approach to sexuality?

If you answer "too liberal" I'll piss my pants.

What is the American approach to exposing kids to sexuality? Too liberal???"

It is not homogenous, is what it is. It is simultaneously too puritan and too liberal.


"What you're saying is in a way analogous to saying that priests disproprotionately abuse little kids because little kids are sexualized in their seminary classes. No -- they do it for the exact opposite reason, because their sexuality is oppressed until it uncontrolably starts coming out of their ears."

No, it is because sick people join the priesthood because they see an opportunity to capitalize on the situation of authority and control priests are put in.


"And the collective shock over a girl wearing this t-shirt only deepens the problem. Only degenerates everything more yet."

We still disagree on that.


"Can sex be harmful? Of course, every human instinct can be harmful if it's not allowed to develop naturally."

Agreed. Adults must restrict children's access to certain things until they're old enough to handle them. Children don't grow up in the wild with complete freedom or they don't grow up well at all. "Naturally" does not mean "independent of any method of control and education".


"And by supressing sexuality we are doing that exactly."

Disagree that by restricting access we are 'supressing'. We are controlling.

Are you familiar with the experiment / situation involving transplanted baby elephants?

[Name removed]

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[redqueen]

167. Well, that's what you're talking about,

but I didn't know that before.


"We're not talking about whether molestation happens, we're talking about whether there is an INCREASED risk of molestation from wearing something like this."

I'm not saying the girl is at increased risk of being molested. I'm saying it helps encourage those sickos to look at her and other young children as sexually available people.


"If there is, then the question becomes a practical one -- yeah, I wouldn't allow my kid to wear this shirt. Or play with guns. Or ride a bike on the highway. There's no argument there."

I think there is.


"But that's not why people in this thread are against the shirt. That's not what this conversation is about. Read the thread. Read your own posts. We're talking about "propriety" and the relationship of society with kids' sexuality (mostly a crude "the less the better", IMO)."

The two issues are intertwined, in my opinion. And I'd be willing to wager it's the same for at least one if not several others on this thread.


""We are controlling" -- I'm sure the same would have been said by parents in 15th century, or the 10th."

Read below, and you'll see why that's not only acceptable, but necessary, in certain circumstances (obviously I think this is one of those circumstances).


"I'm not familiar with the elephant experiment. Do tell."

In order to save a group of elephants that were being threatened with extinction, some conservationists decided to move the young ones off to a different location. They did. The results were less than spectacular. What happened was, because there were no adult elephants around to show the young ones how to behave, they ran wild. Destroying things, bullying each other, etc.

[mongo]

144. If sexuality happens during puberty

Then why do both boy and girl toddlers masturbate? Sexuality is part of self-awareness and begins as birth and matures even well after puberty.

I wouldn't have let my 9yo daughter wear a shirt that says "sexy" to school, but I think that Goldmund has some good points. And I think that this is getting blown out of porportion. The shirt does not say "fuck me", and the 9yo has a different impression of "sexy" than an adult does.

It is our prudishness and lack of good sex-ed in the schools that creates this behavior. Some teaching of critical viewing skills to our children would help too. The culture in Europe if anything, is more open sexually, yet they have less teen pregnancy and STD's among teenagers.

True, but it encourages pedophiles. It encourages predators closer to her age that will try to con her into allowing them to use her as a disposable object. Do you disagree?

I can't believe you said that. If that's true, then if an adult woman wears tight clothing and walks down an alley - is she "asking" to be raped?

[redqueen]

147. Oh for the LOVE OF CHRIST!

"Then why do both boy and girl toddlers masturbate? Sexuality is part of self-awareness and begins as birth and matures even well after puberty."

Sexuality with YOURSELF is not the same as ADVERTISING TO OTHERS.


"I wouldn't have let my 9yo daughter wear a shirt that says "sexy" to school, but I think that Goldmund has some good points. And I think that this is getting blown out of porportion. The shirt does not say "fuck me", and the 9yo has a different impression of "sexy" than an adult does."

The 9 year old doesn't really understand what she is doing, that's the WHOLE POINT. It doesn't say "FUCK ME" in those words, but it does say "I'M FUCKABLE", does it not? What does the word "sexy" mean? LOOK IT UP.


"It is our prudishness and lack of good sex-ed in the schools that creates this behavior. Some teaching of critical viewing skills to our children would help too. The culture in Europe if anything, is more open sexually, yet they have less teen pregnancy and STD's among teenagers."

I agree. However, it doesn't make this t-shirt, and the problem it is a symptom of, nor the one it creates, any more acceptable.

""True, but it encourages pedophiles. It encourages predators closer to her age that will try to con her into allowing them to use her as a disposable object. Do you disagree?"

I can't believe you said that. If that's true, then if an adult woman wears tight clothing and walks down an alley - is she "asking" to be raped?"

First of all, A 9-YEAR-OLD IS NOT A WOMAN!

Second of all, neither this 9-year-old, nor a similarly attired adult, are ASKING TO BE RAPED. However, they are both sending signals that they are sexual beings. The woman is asking men to appreciate her in a sexual manner.

JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST why is this so FUCKING hard to understand?!

[elehhhhna]

154. Good job! If the shirt says "Do Me" but the kid doesn't know

exactly what that means, it's okay for her to wear it? Hardly.

[mongo]

169. The shirt DOESN't say "do me" that's the point.

There is a big difference between "sexy" and "do me".

How about a shirt that says "princess"? In an adult context, that shirt says I'm a prissy bitch that uses men. Would it mean the same thing to a kid?

I think that given that context of the shirt, this argument has gotten blown out of proportion.

[redqueen]

174. PRINCESS does not have any connotation

wherein it invites sexual attention.

Do you really not get this?

Are you arguing just to argue?

[CO Liberal]

183. "Princess" is Also a Term of Endearment

Like when Robert Young called his daughters "Princess" and "kitten" on "Father Knows Best". And I called my daughter "Little Angel".

[mongo]

172. Definition of sexy

adj. sex·i·er, sex·i·est

1. Arousing or tending to arouse sexual desire or interest.
2. Slang. Highly appealing or interesting; attractive: “The recruiting brochures are getting sexier” (Jack R. Wentworth).


And to this 9yo, the meaning is attractive. Making things like this "forbidden fruit" just creates more desire to have them.

[redqueen]

173. Bullshit.

"Sexy" in the definition of slang mentioned above refers to car design, brochure design, story appeal, etc.

"Sexy" in the use on that t-shirt means the first definition.

I really don't know what to say, hearing that you thought otherwise.

:(

Regardless of her naive interpretation, as I said above, SOMEONE has a responsibility to explain the facts to her.

[CO Liberal]

185. Ding - Ding - Ding - Ding - Ding !!!!!

Regardless of her naive interpretation, as I said above, SOMEONE has a responsibility to explain the facts to her.

We have a winner!!!!!

:-)

[CO Liberal]

128. This Is So Totally Wrong on So Many Levels....

...that I don't know where to begin.

Sure, sex is all around in our world. but there are things that are "age-appropriate". That's why 4th Graders cannot get in to see R-rated movied by themselves, and why we as a society should keep them from being sexually exploited.

And that shirt is nothign short of sexual exploitation. I only wish you could see it, Goldmund.

[Goldmund]

130. I think the idea of rating movies for sex is idiotic.

[CO Liberal]

199. That's Very Telling

So you'd have no problem with that 4th grader going in to an X-rated movie???

[Goldmund]

201. I saw X-rated movies when I was a 4th grader.

As I said, I grew up in Europe and you could just change the channel on TV when your parents were at work and there it was.

By the time I was in 7th grade they weren't that appealing any more. And aren't to this day, though there are exceptions.

I didn't have sex until I was almost 17. And I didn't know anybody who was having sex until I was 16. Though we all saw X-rated movies as 4-th graders.

Not one person in my high school (or middle school, need I mention) got pregnant.

Those who I still keep in touch with have had healthy monogamous relationships.

[Beware the Beast Man]

131. I agree 100%

I'm all for individuality and freedom of self-expression, but there is NO reason a 9-year-old girl should have a shirt on that says "SEXY." That's just fucked up.

[CO Liberal]

133. Thank You, BTBM

There are some topics on which you and I can agree.

:-)

[Beware the Beast Man]

138. Absolutely.

There are some things, no matter where your moral standards may fall, that are just unacceptable. This is one of them.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

135. You're kidding, right???

I've had sexual thoughts, urges and dreams (that I am/was aware of) since I was about 6.

Granted, I didn't know the exact mechanics or how things operated, but the latent feelings were there.

Also, I've seen far too many 2-5 year olds chastised by their parents for playing with themselves to accept your notion that sexuality does not begin until puberty occurs.

[CO Liberal]

139. That's Called Being "Sexually Precocious"

And while it's a normally-occurring phenomenon, it should not be encouraged by things like shirts in little girl sizes that say "SEXY" on them, IMHO.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

149. I didn't say anything about the t-shirt

Personally, I find t-shirts for children like that to be a little offensive. (I would be more offended and bothered if there weren't so many other, bigger problems running around.)

I was, however, enjoying following this discussion until the post titled "There is no sexuality in 9 year olds."

That statement is just ludicrously naive or willfully deceptive as nearly all 9 year olds have some element of sexuality about them --even if it's merely an interest or curiosity in the other sex, the recognition of difference -- as witnessed in the examples I cited and in your admission that "it's a normally-occurring phenomenon."

To pretend that all children are completely ignorant of sex and any of the accompanying feelings is wrong.

[redqueen]

156. I meant SEXUALITY TOWARDS OTHERS

Which this T-Shirt thread IMPLICITY requires!

Are people being DELIBERATELY obtuse, or am I really being that vague?!

[redqueen]

145. Playing with themselves is natural and not harmful.

Advertising to others that they're ready to be involved in sexual relationships is much more harmful.

Why is everyone trying to make this complicated?

I honestly DO NOT GET IT.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

153. I agree with you about the shirts

Just not with that one statement that you were using as a part of your argument.

See my post #149.

[redqueen]

157. That statement must be taken in context. n/t

[CO Liberal]

168. Oh, You and I Get It, Redqueen

But a few people around here seem to be out of the loop.

[elehhhhna]

152. try 1 or 2 years later. menses at 11 not unusual or uncommon.

[redqueen]

160. True...

I would maintain that even then, they're still too young to be encouraged to start sexual relationships with others. Educated about sex? Yes. Educated about masturbation? Yes. Educated about STDs? YES! Allowed to advertise themselves as available for sexual attention? HELL FUCKING NO!

[mongo]

164. Do you really think that the 9yo was advertising herself

as available for sexual attention? Do you think that's what the shirt means to her? To her, Barbie is sexy. Should we take away Barbie too?

[redqueen]

170. To her, barbie is sexy?

Why do you think that? Why would she use the word 'sexy' without an adult explaining what it means as soon as they hear it come out of her mouth?

Regardless of what it means TO HER, the ADULT in the home must explain what it REALLY means.

If I think 'child molester' means someone who loves kids, and wear a t-shirt that says "Child molesters ROCK!", does that absolve me of spreading a dangerous message? Or if I'm a child, of the parents' / guardians' responsibility to educate me otherwise?

[elehhhhna]

250. truedat. i'm with you.

[CO Liberal]

171. Sometimes Even Earlier

Girls are starting to menstuate earlier adn earlier. Some think it has something to do with the hormones being fed to cattle to fatten them up faster. They get into the food chain.....

[redqueen]

176. There may be other reasons.

Studies have shown that children rasied (or educated?) in isolation from children outside the family of the opposite sex reach sexual maturity slower. So it's maybe a little of one, a little of the other.

Either way, sexual maturity is in no way directly related to emotional maturity, so even if they menstruate at 8, it doesn't make this t-shirt okay.

[CO Liberal]

203. Actually, NOTHING Makes That T-Shirt OK

But we'll never convince some people of that.

[CO Liberal]

190. Huh??

My whole argument is that it is NOT big deal and that the whole reason this girl is wearing this shirt is because of y'all who are MAKING IT a big deal.

I'm pretty sure that girl didn't wear that shirt to get a reaction from the people here at DU. She may have worn it to get a reaction from her classmates - a reaction that they're probably too emotionally immature to handle.

[CO Liberal]

186. And 20- and 30-Year-Olds Aren't Minors

A huge difference here.

[CO Liberal]

175. It May Be Pushed By Our Culture....

...but parents have a responsibility to shield their kids from it. Chances are very good that this 4th-grader did not buy this shirt for herself - it was probably purchsed by one of her parents.

And that purchase consitutes a gross lack of judgement on their part, IMHO.

[redqueen]

177. I don't doubt she may have picked it out.

She likely has no clue what it means.

That doesn't mean the parents had to buy it, though.

Idiot parents... they're everywhere.

[CO Liberal]

180. True

The kid may have picked it out - but the responsible adult who paid for it should have said "No".

[redqueen]

184. Scary thought - what if she knew what it meant?

:(

:scared:

[WildEyedLiberal]

76. When is awareness of sexual self-identity kosher?

I would imagine when one hits puberty, and thus becomes sexually mature.

A 9 year old is prepubescent, a child in every sense, and should not yet have a "sexual identity."

When I was 9 I had no self-concept of sexuality. I didn't start thinking about the mechanics of sex until I was about 12 - when I had my menses and hit puberty.

[Goldmund]

84. You're talking about "mechanics" of sex

As soon as one becomes aware of their gender, there is a sexual identity.

[redqueen]

92. You're confusing sexual as a gender term, with sexual as a SEX term.

Is the difference really not clear to you?

[Goldmund]

96. You're confusing intercourse,

masturbation, etc with sexual identity. Is the difference really not clear to you?

[redqueen]

105. When you defend t-shirts for pre-pubescents that say "Sexy"

you are not defending their having a sexual identity. You are defending their sexualization.

This really isn't all that complicated.

[Goldmund]

107. Well,

saying "it really isn't that complicated" is usually a sign of being close minded. It really isn't that simple, I'd say.

Read #106.

[redqueen]

115. No, it really is that simple.

You keep trying to make this about some 'wider definition'.

I wonder why. Because really, it's just not that complicated. Kids aren't adults. Pre-pubescents should not feel sexy to others.

[CO Liberal]

137. I've Got a Better Idea

Instead of telling someone to read your post #106, why don't YOU read a few news stories about sexual predators who attack, molest, rape, and KILL little girls like the one mentioned in the OP?

No matter how many postings you make on this subject, you're gonna be hard-pressed to find many people here who agree with you - especially those of us who are parents or grandparents.

[Goldmund]

141. I'm not looking for agreement.

And as far as your first issue, I've already addressed it. It's really not what we're talking about. Y'all are not "oh, my!"-ing because this statistically increases the chance of the girl being picked up by a predator (since that is a speculation anyway), but because of the supposed "impropriety" and "sexualization" of kids. That's the issue we're talking about.

[redqueen]

148. The issues are intertwined.

I thought that was IOTTMCO.

[redqueen]

146. According to him, molestation isn't common.

Nothing to worry about.

:wow:

[Goldmund]

151. That isn't what I said and you know it.

I said that the danger of molestation isn't necessarily higher by the virtue of wearing this t-shirt.

And I also said that if it were so, I'd agree about not allowing kids to wear this.

And I also said that this is not the reason we're discussing it.

Stop being a shock-jock, it's an unfair debate tactic.

[redqueen]

155. No, I didn't know that's not what you meant.

I'm not a mind-reader and this medium lends itself to misunderstandings rather easily.

As for whether or not sexualizing children increases the likelihood of people acting out their fantasies of molestation... as I said... IOTTMCO.

We must agree to disagree, I suppose, until someone finally bothers to do studies to bear it out one way or another.

[CO Liberal]

181. It May Not Make The Danger Higher....

...but it might. So why risk it?

[WildEyedLiberal]

245. And I maintain that the concept of "sexiness" is not something

most prepubuescent children have - or SHOULD have.

When I was 9, I climbed trees and played videogames; I didn't worry about any sort of "sexual" thoughts besides "boys are gross and dumb, except for Mitchell, cuz he's my friend." I certainly didn't think about them or myself in terms of "sexiness."

[KitchenWitch]

63. THANK YOU!

"Big Deal"????

Is it a big deal when children are used as sex objects for adults? Yes it is!

(this is not directed at LeftisWrite....)

[CO Liberal]

90. As a Parent ...

...I can tell you that I never would have let my daughter wear something like that at that age. Of course, my daughter is 28 now - she can wear a shirth like that now, if she chooses.

It's not just a damn t-shirt. It's a lack of parental control and/or concern, IMHO.

[Goldmund]

97. Cool -- glad I'm not your daughter.

:)

[CO Liberal]

108. There Are Some Things In This World That Are Just Plain Wrong

And a 4th Grader wearing a shirt that says "SEXY" in it is one of them.

[Goldmund]

111. Sorry,

I don't think anything in this world is "just plain" anything.

[CO Liberal]

112. Well, In This Case...

...I believe you're just plain wrong when it comes to this topic. The sexualization of prepubescent kids is so totally wrong I can't see how anyone can either justify it or slough it off as "no big deal".

[Goldmund]

116. Because I don't think there is a sexualization.

I think the problem is the exact opposite -- this degenerate idea that any sexual topic is inappopriate for kids to witness, participate in, know about. HIDING sex from kids is the problem. Making sex into this mysterious secretive BIG DEAL is the problem, which causes kids to assume unnatural and degenerate attitudes toward it. Then corporations will make money off it any way they can, but they always do.

The root problem isn't "sexualization" of kids. It's laughable to me to hear that America is too liberal when it comes to sex and kids. That's absurd. The problem is the exact opposite -- HIDING sex from kids.

[CO Liberal]

124. Then Open Your Eyes, Goldmund

There is a BIG problem here, and you choose to ignore it.

[Goldmund]

129. There is a problem.

It's called sexual puritanism.

[CO Liberal]

132. There's Nothing Puritanical....

...about not allowing our children to be sexualized or exploited. And that shirt does both.

Picture what might happen if that 4th-grader were to walk down the sidewalk with that "SEXY" shirt on, and a child molester happened to be walking the other way. Actually, I'd rather not picture it....

[Goldmund]

134. I addressed both of those issues in #126.

[redqueen]

117. I don't see how anyone can justify it, either.

I've had this same argument with ONE other poster on here. When I got completely pissed after first seeing thongs for kids advertised in a Target circular. I was even accused by that poster of lying, making it up... not that there was anything wrong with parents buying them for their kids, in his opinion.

Shocking, frankly.

[mac56]

114. How nice it must feel to be so flexible.

How frustrating it must feel to have no solid place to stand.

[Goldmund]

119. Nicely said, reverend.

[mac56]

120. And nicely dodged.

nm

[Goldmund]

121. What;'s there to dodge?

You didn't express an argument, but a quasi-moralist quasi-poetic line.

[CO Liberal]

125. You're Doing a WONDERFUL Job of Dodging This

Several people have told you what's wrong here, and you go off on a tangent about how we're not "liberal enough".

How about letting kids be kids?

[Goldmund]

127. Dude, spare me the dogma.

[CO Liberal]

140. And Spare Us All Your Ramblings

There are a lot of parents, grandparents, and even children on this thread that have told you that your position is wrong, but you refuse to listen.

I feel sorry for any kids you may have some day - they're gonna come in to this word with a bizarre perspective on things....

[Goldmund]

142. They've told me it's wrong but I've refused to listen?

Alright, man, cool.

[MichiganVote]

4. Welcome to the Brittany world of marketing

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. What is the dress code at your school?

That kind of shirt would get a girl sent home where I teach.

[margaritamama]

21. Dress code at school

What is the dress code in her house? Is this the school's responsibility or her parents? That would not fly in my house!

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Unfortunately

there is a shortage of conscientious parents. You would be amazed at what some kids wear (and bring) to school.

[margaritamama]

36. Nothing surprises me anymore

This is unfortunate but true.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. Yes it is

and welcome to du :hi:

[margaritamama]

40. Thanks for the welcoming

:hi:

[xmas74]

75. Welcome to DU!

Be sure to spend lots of time looking around at all of the different forums-and keep posting!

:pals:

[Ekirh]

6. Reminds me..

When I worked at the boys and girls club of 10-13 year old kids wearing shirts such as bootylicious..... and certain revealing outfits one shouldn't be wearing at this age. I remember my co-worker confronting a parent on one of their kid's outfits one day. The Parent said they didn't see anything wrong with given their child a bit more freedom.

[redqueen]

93. Thank goodness for people like your co-worker!

It does indeed take a village.

[xmas74]

7. I feel the same way.

Try going clothes shopping for a four year old. There are things out there that are sexier than when I used to purposely dress like a tramp! What kind of parent buys thongs for a four year old(believe me, they are out there)? And worst of all, my daughter wants the clothes because she sees other kids her age wearing them (the answer is Over My Dead Body!).
Why can't kids be kids anymore?

[Maat]

30. Yep, my kid is used to hearing, 'Over my dead body.'

I once saw a tiny pair of jean-shorts, with a big pink heart over the crouch!

But this is Fox-America; Faux News talks about Concerned Women of America (who just today put out a 'study' about the horrible things feminism has wrought, like 'careerism,' which, they are relieved to know, is going down for women - although deliberate childlessness is still a problem) - but who broadcasts women in the trampiest of clothing all the time - speaking as if they haven't had a year of education; the message is loud and clear - your value is as a sex toy for some man (his property during marriage or be one of the 'bad girls.'

[xmas74]

74. I do my best to teach my child self-esteem

for that reason. I do not want her to think that the only thing she is good for is to be a toy of a man. She is a highly intellegent little girl who has a bright future ahead of her. Why teach her that her self worth is dependent upon how she looks?

[LeftyMom]

55. I was at Penney's in the girls' section

looking for something for my step-daughter and my best friend's two girls for the holidays and I saw the most appalling thing. They had little girl's thongs, starting in a size four.

I asked the salesperson what the hell the idea behind that was. She said it was because the hip hugger pants girls are wearing these days show regular underpants. Now, I've always been a bit mistified at the poplarity of hip huggers with girls who haven't got any hips yet (lwt alone the barely out of diapers demographic,) but couldn't they have modified the style a bit so it came within shouting distance of the waist and little girls could wear normal underpants?

I'm glad I'm only raising a boy. Society does lots of strange things to little boys but at least the scariest thing that happens to thier underpants is getting funky at the bottom of the hamper.

[xmas74]

73. And imagine having a four year old who wants the thongs!

She doesn't understand, she just notices that the thongs seem to have pretty patterns and some of them are lacy or rhinestone-infested.
I saw a pair for her that had written, in glitter, "I Like Boys". WTF! She's four, for crying out loud!

[Quakerfriend]

8. It's very sad for our kids, at such a young age

to have to try to understand/deal with sexuality issues.

I just heard on another thread that there has been a problem with kids swapping porn-type photos of themselves via their cell phones!

[Jara sang]

10. I saw one, same age, that said "Lil' Hottie" across the rear of her shorts

At a school when we were in Hawaii. Made me want to puke. The people that market that crap should be put in jail and so should the parents.

[tammywammy]

37. I saw a girl wearing shorts that said "Juicy" on the bottom

I think it's a brand (I'm so unhip), but it was disgusting.

[LibDemAlways]

78. Yep it's a brand.

My 12-year-old daughter has a friend who attends an exclusive private school where "Juicy" is all the rage. Try explaining to a pre-teen why it isn't a good idea to have the word "Juicy" in big bold letters across one's butt. A kid wants the label and could care less about the message.

[elehhhhna]

158. Cherry themes are big for little gals lately too. barf.

[trof]

12. At a kids' fishing tournament: "I'M A HAPPY HOOKER"

Our watershed watch group puts on an annual fishing tournament for kids. Trying to get younger folks involved in conservation, etc.
Last year a little girl (7? 8?) showed up wearing a T-shirt that read "I'M A HAPPY HOOKER" with a fishing lure under it.
That's maybe cute/funny on an adult, but not on a kid. What the hell were her parents thinking?
jeez

[Zuni]

13. I think it is fucking revolting

It is nasty seeing young kids dressing like streetwalkers

[barackmyworld]

14. I'm only 20 but this is NEW

When I was in grade school, nobody wore make-up. That stuff didn't start until 7th/8th grade. This is gross.

[ghostsofgiants]

81. Likewise

Hell, I can't even stand seeing that stuff on a 20 year old woman. All it does is let me know that talking to her might induce the same results as a sever stroke. I've met many of the type, and barring a few exceptions: quite the dullards.

Parents and the media need to smarten the fuck up and try to give little girls positive role models so that they don't want to dress like that.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

15. "I used to be with it. But what I was with wasn't it, and what was it was

strange and scary to me. It will happen to you."

This quote courtesy one Abe Simpson.

[ghostsofgiants]

82. No way man...

We're gonna keep on rockin' forever... forever... forever...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. Makes me feel like doing this:

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Bouncy Ball]

17. My daughter is in fourth grade.

It bothers me a LOT. If people didn't BUY these shirts, there'd be no market for them.

I can tell you one thing--you won't be seeing my daughter in one. Not now, not when she's 16.

If she's an adult, that's her choice.

But....blech. Way to teach a girl how to be valued for her mind and her personality. Ug.

[margaritamama]

22. No Way

My daughters are in 4th and 5th grade and no way will they be wearing shirts like this

[elehhhhna]

159. 3rd & 5th here; same deal.

[Nikia]

18. It really disturbs me too

I don't know what is wrong with people. Do they want to encourage or justify pedophilia?

[mongo]

161. Should we ban tight jeans and halter tops for adults too?

After all, we don't want to encourage rape.

This kid wearing the "sexy" shirt does not have the same understanding of the term that an adult does. The shirt does not say "fuck me"

[redqueen]

178. Why are you bringing adults into this? And rape?

For men to desire adult women is perfectly acceptable. It's also acceptable for adult women to advertise themselves for sexual attention.

How exactly does it relate to a child advertising for sexual attention?

[mongo]

241. because of statments like this:

I don't know what is wrong with people. Do they want to encourage or justify pedophilia?

If the above is true, then a woman in provacative dress is encouraging or justifying pedophilia. (which obviously is NOT)

and my other point is that the child herself is not "advertising for sexual attention" - at least not in the way the horrified posters here think. The child does not understand it that way. It is our own adult attitudes and repressive tendancies that make this shirt sooooo baaadddd.

Ya know, Walmart sells little girls undies with XXOOXX and FLIRT written on them. I think that's arguably more apalling than this shirt with "sexy" on it. Sexy is more of a generic term - one that kids hear all the time, and have an imature or more slang idea of what it means. The word sexy is used all the time in advertising for everything from shampoo to cars.

If your 6 or 9yo asked you what sexy means, what would you say - attractive, or available and interested in having sexual relations?

[redqueen]

243. They're 7 and 5.

They don't understand it, but they know I don't approve of children having anything to do with sexy anything. They know Bratz and sexy clothing for children are things mom doesn't approve of. When they see girls tarted up on the screen (even women, actually), they say 'she looks too sexy' or 'she's trying to be sexy'. They don't know the definition, but they know it's inappropraite for Nickelodeon.

[CO Liberal]

197. If An Adult Chooses To Dress That Way, Fine

But it's just plain wrong for pre-teens to dress that way, IMHO.

[blondeatlast]

235. Children are deserving of some protection. IMHO, her parents dropped the

protection ball, so to speak. Let me emphasize the "IMHO" part, too.

Does said little girl understand all the nuances of where this discussion has led? I think not.

And I'm decidedly NOT a prude, just concerned about the atmosphere at my son's school.

I'm of an age where I witnessed the tail end of the second wave of feminism. I was on the front lines. Seeing this just makes me wonder what went wrong.

[proud2BlibKansan]

248. You are an adult

No telling what a 4th grade boy would think this shirt means. So why let the 4th grade girl wear it?

[Shell Beau]

19. It sickens me. But look at the pop stars and T.V. stars that

they model themselves after. Regardless, someone had to buy her that t-shirt. If I had a 10 year old, she would never be allowed to wear that.

[Worst Username Ever]

20. I saw a 2nd grader with a tank top that had a large cherry printed on it.

Like we don't know what that conotates. Jesus.

[WI_DEM]

24. It's the parents

Kids are allowed to grow up too fast these days. Too many parents are afraid to parent today. Look at the television shows even for kids--there is no such thing as the family hour anymore. Little kids routinely listen to sexually suggestive music and videos. They dress like their idols (Brittany Spiers,ect). Let kids be kids--they will have plenty of time to be sexually suggestive when they get older-if that is what they want.

[jmm]

26. I saw a girl that age with sweet buns on her behind

Many kids clothes are marketed for mini-adults not children. People who don't put much thought into parenting think if a store is willing to sell it it's ok to buy it. The end result, some little girls are now running around wearing what Guess kids or wherever sees as "cutting end" for women in their late teens and twenties.

[JitterbugPerfume]

33. I call it

the Jon-Benet syndrome

poor kids

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Let me guess: the same parents who let their children wear

slogans with sexual innuendos are the ones who the most ready to lynch any convicted sex offender who moves into their neighborhood.

In other words, there isn't a thought in their heads that television didn't put there.

[Maestro]

28. She would have been given a new shirt at my school.

We also wear uniforms four days a week with Friday being "Spirit Day." The kids wear jeans and a school shirt. It's pathetic what is on sale in the girls section at some dept. stores.

[Maat]

31. It's the good ol' Madonna or the Whore syndrome.

I grew up in Orange County, Ca. in the middle of Repukes and John-Birchers.

My parents were acquaintances with Congressman Schmitz and his family (Daughter grew up to be Mary Letourneau. Need I say more?)

They do their best to make sure they stay rich, and certain women and children stay poor. I figure it's deliberate; rich men need their 'trampy women.'

But some women are supposed to be 'the good ones,' marry, and be the stay-at-home property of their husbands.

I was HEAVILY DISCOURAGED about going to university or starting a career. It was a 'man's world,' and I was supposed to be getting my "Mrs."

[blondeatlast]

34. You may be on to something.

We live in a pretty nice, but very working-class type neighborhood. My neighbors tend to be Bushbot types who vote against their own interests every time.

I mean, their vote turns around and sticks a pole up their butts consistently. There just isn't any getting through to them.

No one seems terribly encouraged to think about college around here.

[Maat]

67. Yep.

I know of what you speak.

I was recently offered a chance to form a club 'to reach out to those across the political aisle.' I turned it down - there is no reaching them.

[Redneck Socialist]

29. Try hanging out in a mall food court for a while...

If you are looking for evidence of the end of civilization as we know it, you'll find it there.

I'm all for women dressing like prostitutes :evilgrin: but kids is another matter entirely. I guess I'm getting uptight in my old age.

[cally]

32. We can't always blame the parents

When I was in 4th and 5th grade, my friends would routinely bring clothes for me and I would change into them before school. My Mom was much more strict than others so I just ignored her. I think all parents have to walk a fine line with instilling values and not being too strict so that kids ignore them.

I think the T-shirts are disgusting. I'm fairly certain my kids never wore them. They both think almost anything with writing on it is disgusting.

[redqueen]

98. Wow... thanks for the warning, you sneaky woman!

I'll remember to start the surprise visits to school around the 4th grade.

:hi:

[Groggy]

35. sick

Why would a parent allow a 9 year old to wear that? I would bet the girl doesn't even know what it means.

[LynzM]

41. Others do feel as you feel

I'm amazed at the stuff that's out there for kids, and I'm only 24. Whatever happened to jeans and a plain old t-shirt? </cranky>

[tammywammy]

51. I'm also 24

And you know what, I'm still a jeans and t-shirt kind of girl. I hate that I'm "supposed" to be wearing a skimpy and trashy outfit because it's Saturday night and I'm at a bar (with my co-workers, who are male).

No, that's not me. I don't mind a pair of slacks or a nice skirt, but not the trash their selling at outrageous prices.

Jeans and t-shirts. And you know what, when I was in 4th grade, my mom took me to Mervyn's to shop. No $40 shirts, or $80 jeans. It was sensible clothing. The clothing these girls wear today are sickening. And even girls my age don't know how to dress appropriately. I work at a car dealership, and it's like they're wearing their gym clothes or pajamas. I've seen this on more than one occasion. Hey, FYI dressing like a shank doesn't get you a better price on a car, it just gets the guys goggling at you, and saying some pretty raunchy things behind your back.

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. My middle school cheerleaders wanted skin tight cropped uniforms

and they wanted to shake it MTV style in their dance routine. Ever since the All-Star teams started dressing their babies up like Jon-Benet the school and Rec teams want to do it too.

Of course I said, NO! They were annoyed but what are they gonna do? Quit cheering? Hardly.

Here are my little cuties helping out the K-3 graders at a clinic this past weekend. Everyone was appropriately attired: http://www.geocities.com/aescougarcheer/clinic05.htm

[katinmn]

43. Excellent, GPV!

Stick to those values and some of the girls might learn something.

[GreenPartyVoter]

44. Oh, I am lucky enough that they come from stable middle class homes

So the parents and I are pretty much on the same side of how to do things. This tug of war is all about the kids wanting to do what is popular at any given moment for a nice fake self-esteem boost. (Been there, done that. Dressed like Madonna most of my freshman year. Black everything, rhinestones, and dozens of rubber bracelets. Well, after I was through with my John Taylor phase, anyway. *lol*)

[DawgHouse]

46. You do realize

that you've obligated yourself to post photos of your Madonna phase :)

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. I don't think any exist. There is one from a couple years earlier

when I dressed up for punk day in a cheetah fur vest and fishnet stockings at age 13. But I would get bawled out for being a complete hypocrite with regards to my earlier post, so I can't post it. I don't like to face my two-facedness. *g* (Not that I was the least bit shexy in the pic. I looked like a clown! *lol*)

[Maestro]

62. They look very nice clothed like that.

May they never feel the need to look cheap or skanky just to be cool.

[GreenPartyVoter]

110. Thank you, and I so agree. :^)

[uppityperson]

48. Bikini swim suits on little kids bug me too.

So what if little girls have nipples? So do little boys. This really bugs me, sexualizing little girls.

[Cobalt Violet]

52. I wonder which of our great American Corprations sells this shirt?

For little girls?

[blondeatlast]

236. Probably easier to answer which ones DON'T.

If I had to dress a daughter these days I might just bring out the old Bernina and sew them myself.

[Xithras]

54. It encourages pedophiles and child molestation

Many child molesters like to think that the kids enjoy it, that the kids are really sexualized anyway, and just repress it. I know that my molester couldn't get off until he thought that I was "enjoying" it, which led to all kinds of sick additional abuse.

Clothes like the ones described here simply sexualize children and reinforce the pedophiles belief that children ARE sexual beings. It also makes them believe that the children wearing these clothes will be more "open" to these sexual experiences.

My daughter is 10 and absolutely HATES my opinion of her clothes. She wants to wear short skirts, belly revealing tshirts, waistless pants, and all kinds of other clothing that are inappropriate for anybody not of legal driving age, and my NO is never negotiable when she asks for them. It doesn't stop her from asking or whining when the NO comes back as a response, but I don't particularly care.

By the way, the absolute worst I've seen was at a local open air market. There was a vendor selling teen and preteen clothes (lots of name brand knockoffs), and my daughter picked up a pair of panties (her size, and she is a small 10 year old) that had a cherry in front and the word "phucable" printed over the top. I asked the clerk why the hell they would sell that to little girls, and the clerk just looked at me and said, "Hey man, people like that stuff, I've sold a bunch of them today to kids smaller than yours". Puke.

[solinvictus]

57. Similar experience here..

Back in Chattanooga, I saw a kid of about 10-11 wearing "booty" shorts that showed part of her butt with "BRAT" in spangled letters across her backside and a bare-belly tank top. I couldn't believe a parent would let their kid leave the house wearing that outfit. We're getting too permissive in allowing the sexualization of our kids and it needs to stop.

[Generator]

58. More stupid parenting

Who bought the shirt? Who made money for the shirt? Who did the laundry of said shirt? Who? A parent or guardian that's who.

Yeah it pisses me off. And the piece of trash shirt was no doubt bought at Walmart where "the poor must shop because they are poor."

I would complain to the school that said shirt is not appropo. They don't let you wear "Smoke dope" shirts..so why this? Sex nor drugs are legal at age 10.

I've seen this types of clothes at stores because I have a daughter. It is just creepy, you are correct.

Here's what I'm telling my daughter when I get older.

The boys, the society will make it seem it means you are LOVED and popular.

To them it's JUST SEX. To you it means: LOVE, popularity, love, popularity.

To the males: SEX. Nothing more.

[mark414]

68. i am only 20 and also find that disturbing

and i am usually the one telling people on here to lighten up

[mitchum]

70. What next, crotchless diapers?

[Goldmund]

71. LMAO

[StepfordWife]

72. I'm 19

And I don't ever recall seeing something like that, in stores or on somebody, when I was younger.

However, at the mall last year, I did see a little girl, escorted by her mother, wearing a very short skirt and a tube top. Disturbing, to say the least.

[redqueen]

102. Hi StepfordWife

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[barackmyworld]

182. exactly, this is in the past couple years (I'm 20)

we didn't even have the stuff that says "princess" or "angel"

[blondeatlast]

237. Welcome to DU! A tube top--even I can't manage those,

how the hell can a little girl?!

and I'm a parent who, well, grew, after my son's birth!

[LibDemAlways]

77. My twelve year old is big for her age,

and no longer fits into anything in the 7-16 section at the Department Store. The next step up is the dreaded Juniors - for teenagers - though it might as well be called the Hooker-wanna-be Dept. Low cut tops with obscene crap written across the front, backless tops, midriff bearing tops, tight, low-cut jeans -- nothing appropriate in the whole department. I remember shopping in the Juniors Dept. for myself well into my twenties, and it didn't used to be full of slutty clothing. At any rate, there's a Ltd. Too in the mall, and that's where I usually end up buying stuff for my daughter. They seem to be the only retailer around here that carries clothing I can safely let her out of the house in - even if the high prices are a big rip-off.

Shoes are another issue. Try finding age-appropriate low heeled dress shoes for a pre-teen. They don't exist.

Some enterprising entrepreneur could make a fortune selling decent, reasonably priced clothing and shoes for girls.

[LeftyMom]

79. I understand what you're saying about the shoes

I have big feet, always have. I got stuck wearing heels to my first communion because there weren't any white flats in my size anywhere we looked.

Do you have an Anchor Blue in your area? They sell juniors clothes and seem to be more modest than some of thier competitors. My sister used to work for them so I've got a fair number of outfits as gifts, all covered all the parts one would expect to cover.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

86. I shop in stores that carry Juniors' clothing

So while I agree with you about the amount of inappropriate clothes in general in the Juniors Dept., I can still find acceptable clothing at a number of stores. :shrug:

[LibDemAlways]

166. You are lucky. At my local

mall here in So. Cal. there is nothing appropriate for a twelve year old in the Juniors Dept. Believe me, I've tried. The teenage girls around here all wear the low slung jeans and low cut, revealing tee-shirts because that's all that's sold in their size. The bigger girls who can't fit into those teeny clothes for anorexics either end up wearing big, baggy boys' shirts or end up looking like a stuffed sausage in those clingy little tops.

[blondeatlast]

238. "...all that's sold in their size." So true. One of the problems with the

clothing industry is their unwillingness to take a risk and offer an alternative.

I'm very long waisted, and have spent the last several years in a terrible bind because the waistlines for tops have become considerably shorter, even for misses clothes.

I remember being able to once be certain a top bought off the rack would at least reach below my belt or stay tucked in. Not so anymore.

[elehhhhna]

163. zappos.com for the shoes--you can search by heel height (like NONE)

[clyrc]

80. I remember feeling sexual as a young child, but

I would never never let my daughters wear clothes like these. For me, the question isn't whether they are already in their way little sexual creatures, but what they can deal with at which age. Even with my attitude, I hate seeing little girls dress inappropriately. I've watched a few of the programs documenting the pageant world for young girls, and that's disgusting. A long time before I ever saw clothes proclaiming a child to be sexy (I see it when I go back home, not here where I live in the UAE) I wondered how on earth a parent could let their four year old dress provocatively, put on makeup, and sing wildly inappropriate songs and feel good about it. Yuck!

[Splatter Phoenix]

224. And I used to think it was bad...

...that I sang Aqua's "Candyman" when I was younger. I agree with you though, this whole thing is completely disgusting. No way is it right. Even if she was twelve or thirteen, I'd still be kinda hesitant about seeing that. Hell, when <b>I</b> was twelve, I thought "Sex" was a swearword...maybe I'm just a late bloomer.

[TreasonousBastard]

83. Hey, I'm a dirty old man, and I think it's creepy...

I kind of side with some of what Goldmund says about us not really dealing with sexuality, and getting caught trying to match the myth of purity with the reality of sexuality.

I do think that we spend far too much time trying to shelter our kids from sex, as we try to shelter them from much other questionable stuff, and we really don't have much of a handle on just how we should let them mature at their own biological pace. But, that's a whole 'nother issue about just how we prepare kids for their sexuality. Or, for that matter, prepare them for anything else they'll have to deal with.

In the end, though, tarting up prepubescent girls for any reason is just plain sick. Pedophiles will want them no matter what, although it could be argued that it encourages them, but for the rest of us it just makes no sense to put ANY adult baggage on children. That they are attracted to the glitter or peer pressure and don't understand the message is irrelevant. Allowing or encouraging them to wear pimp and ho' costumes is throwing them a message that they are unprepared for.

On the other hand, we still dress little girls up in dresses and bows and little boys in pants and long-sleeved shirts. And little girls get little plastic toy people while little boys get little plastic toy guns to shoot them with.

When we figure it all out, that will probably be the end of the world anyway.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

85. Being 18...

This is new even relative to my age. I remember these types of shirts coming out when I was 13, 14... nobody's parents let them wear them even at that age.

For a 9 year old to be wearing a "Sexy" shirt is ridiculous. I'd be willing to bet my mom wouldn't even let me wear one now, and she's no conservative school marm or anything like that. It's objectifying to wear a shirt like that. While I think it is important to let kids make their own decisions for the most part, I doubt most 9 year olds know what sort of connotations and unwanted attention will come with wearing something like that. A little girl sees the word sexy thrown around like it's nothing in the media and it doesn't mean the same thing to her as it does to an adult.

[redqueen]

87. No, you're not out of touch. You're SANE.

What the FUCK is with parents either sexualizing their children, or allowing their children to be sexualized, at such a young age?

:wtf: :grr: :puke: :nuke:

[MissMillie]

88. I think it's pathetic

I saw a pre-teen wearing a shirt that said "Foxy" on it once, and wanted so badly to ask the girl's mother how she would really feel if someone thought her 10 or 11 year-old daughter was "foxy".

[Enraged_Ape]

95. It's stuff like this that makes me glad I don't have kids

I can't imagine the pressures parents face today as they navigate their children through these kinds of treacherous waters. I have several nieces and nephews and I worry about them every day. It's just disgusting what our diseased society seems to expect from them.

Why the he11 can't we let kids be kids? What is with this pressure to make them fully-functioning adults? It's just crazy.

[GOPBasher]

101. That's so messed up. I'm a father, and

my daughter will NOT wear anything like that until she's too old for me to stop her.

[Ron Green]

104. The Free Market knows that parents aren't guiding their kids.

...So we have Britney, and thongs for 6-year-olds, and the corporatization of sex for all.

Sex is one of the Biggies as far as driving forces go, and rather than try to give it the respect and health it deserves, to enrich and fulfill us, we've let the Market have it, to tease and fool us.

[blondeatlast]

240. I believe you are on to something.

I don't think there is evil intent (other than the quest for the almighty Dollar) behind the marketing of this type of thing OR the wearing of it. I doubt there is a second thought given to the underlying message--to the young girl, it was just a particularly pretty t-shirt.

I'm even willing to give the parents the benefit of the doubt, although the girl was tarted up in other ways too.

Your post nails the entire issue to the wall. Nicely said--you expressed my feelings in a nutshell.

I LOVE sex, myself, but I have, IMHO, a helathy respect for it. Clearly, the "respect" issue got lost somewhere in the marketing history of said garment.

[Ron Green]

244. Although there could even be evil intent, if you include the marketing

efforts directed at kids by outfits like McDonald's. They know that many parents aren't in control of their families' dining choices, so they market directly to the kids, with Happy Meals and playgrounds, the family is whined into going, and the underlying evil is addiction to simple carbohydrates, fat and salt.

Could it be that the marketers are doing the same thing with "sexy" clothes for little kids, selling them as being cute and "with-it," while setting little girls up for objectification, which is a guaranteed market for many years to come, as the duped females continue to try to buy back their own sexuality?

[bertha katzenengel]

109. I'm with you.

:puke: :scared: and it really facking makes me wonder about their facking parents.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

123. That's not her. n/t

[trogdor]

136. Go tell bartcop.

He must have gotten this from somewhere reputable.

[redqueen]

150. Not worth my time.

If he doesn't care to check his facts, he can learn the hard way.

[last_texas_dem]

165. I agree with you

That is truly sick and disgusting. It's both sick that they actually market shirts like that to nine year olds and that she actually has parents who have no problem with her wearing it.

And feel free to flame me, but I'm sickened there are people here who actually have no problem with it.

[redqueen]

179. No flames here!

I'm in complete agreement!

:hi:

[Fleshdancer]

239. as a nation, we are f*cked up sexually

Growing up sucks enough without the extremely confusing, contradicting messages society throws at children about sexuality. As a parent, I feel like I'm trapped between two different groups that want to influence my daughter. On one hand, I have to fight to keep sex ed in the text books and on the other hand I have to explain why advertising sex isn't a good idea.

Sex is apparently an evil, dirty thing to do, but is wonderful for capitalistic, entertaining purposes. How can anyone finish puberty with a healthy sexual attitude with these mixed messaged? You should want to look as skanky as Brittney because that's the look but you can't search for a meaningful, personal way of experiencing your own sexuality or else you'll be a whore? We'll trust you with these sexually implicit images, lyrics, and clothes but we don't trust you enough to educate you on the proper use of a condom?

The topic of this thread is insane to me as a parent. I can't imagine my daughter wearing something like that and I hope she will some day be mature enough to realize that sexuality isn't bad or dirty but making your sexuality about something that is not you IS bad and dirty. Walking around with a "sexy" shirt (at any age) shows a lack of maturity and understanding about what sexy is. Wearing a "sexy" shirt at 9 yrs old...well that proves she has shitty parents.

[blondeatlast]

242. BRAVA! BRAVA! BRAVA!

Oddly, as the OP, I have found NOTHING TO DISAGREE with virtually any of the arguments made here (I haven't seen any of the deleted posts, fwiw).

Goldmund isn't wrong, but doesn't understand the underlying issues parents must face in this crazy world.

I'm far from a prude, but the mixed messages I'm seeing concerning sex concern me from both ends of the spectrum.

[Lorien]

249. As the child of a sex therapist

I grew up in the '70s under the guidance of two very liberal parents-and later three parents, as my parents divorced and my father moved in with his physiologist girlfriend. As a sex therapist, my father had many books and journals around the house describing both sexual dysfunction and healthy sexuality. Of course, as kids we had children's books like 'where did I come from"? describing the act in very tasteful terms. We grew up understanding that sex was a healthy and natural act between two caring adults, and that the objectification of either men or women (using sex to sell products) wasn't really "dirty"-but it wasn't respectful to the models and it doesn't depict a mature attitude towards sex, or a respect for what sex is meant to be (they didn't support censorship, either). My step siblings and I grew up to have fairly healthy relationships with the opposite sex. My younger sister, on the other hand, was not so lucky. In the '80s, my mom "found Jesus", and began filling her head with the "sex is a sin" message. my sister has never had a healthy relationship with a man. She's had two unplanned pregnancies, caught VD, got into drug use and shop lifting. Mixed messages and repression can cause children to "act out" in fairly harmful ways, IMO. While openness and honesty about sex (with a straightforward "Dr. Ruth" approach) can really help young people to develop healthy relationships. Holland, for instance, has one of the lowest teenage birth rates in the world-and it's also one of the most sexually open.

And yes, I think a shirt like that on a 9 year old is inexcusable. Kids should be kids; sex is an adult activity, period.