Now that things seem to have calmed down a little bit...

[Skinner]

...we think we should give you our perspective on recent events.

The last couple days have been rough. In fact, the whole week has been stressful for many of us. There has been a lot going on here in the Lounge, and in the other forums, and I think we're probably all emotionally drained right now. I know I am.

In the General Discussion forum, we've all been worrying about Andy Stephenson. There were some very unfortunate allegations which I won't repeat here. I hope you'll agree that we dealt with the challenge effectively, and provided some much-needed stability and leadership.

In the General Discussion: Politics forum, we have been hosting discussions in an effort to build trust among entrenched partisans. We have a long way to go in there, but I think we're on the right track, and I'm proud of what we're trying to do.

Obviously, our stewardship of the Lounge has not been quite so successful this week. I think that certain situations could have been handled more delicately. But I want to be clear: We were fully justified in the choices we made, and we stand by them. We made some miscalculations in the implementation, but the actions themselves were correct. We do not expect everyone to agree with us. We know that being in charge means that we frequently have to do things that people do not like. We still make these choices, even though we know when they are likely to cause a shit storm on the website.

Understandably, some of you want a public accounting. You want us to lay it all out for the world, so you can all decide whether our actions were justified or not. I am sorry, but on a huge website like this, things cannot possibly work this way. Allowing the members to debate and second guess and sign-off on everything we do would ensure that nothing ever gets done.

What you need to understand is this: We do not take big decisions lightly. We consider *all sides* of every situation we face. We have a group of smart and fair moderators, who provide their advice and consent on all the big stuff we do. And most of the mods are not shy about sharing their opinions, even if those opinions are unpopular. They are our sounding board, and sometimes they are our backbone. And unlike all of you, they do know the whole story. They see all the deleted posts, all the alerts, all the snarky emails and private messages to admin, and only they see the entire context of everyone's behavior. It is their job to look at the whole picture, and it is their responsibility to be fair. Right now, everything they are telling me indicates that they are firm and united in their support.

If you do not have the guts to shut off someone you genuinely like, then you have no business being an administrator or moderator of a website like this. If you do not have the self-control and fairness to let someone remain a member of this website, even if you personally cannot stand that person, then you have no business being an administrator or moderator of a website like this. And if you do not have the guts to stick to your guns, even as a bunch of people rip you a new one and demand satisfaction, then you have no business being an administrator or moderator of a website like this.

We understand why people are upset. We really do. We are doing the best that we can to respect that, and to avoid making any poorly-considered ultimatums or threats that could escalate the situation. We have the sense to know if we did do such a thing there would likely be a bloodbath. The group dynamic in the Lounge right now is such that any ultimatum I made would be an open invitation for martyrdom. I'm sure there are dozens of people who would jump at the chance. We are not foolish. We have no desire to escalate.

But we also quietly, humbly, and steadfastly decline to undo the actions we have taken. They were done in good faith. A few months back we offered you all the opportunity to pass the reigns of moderation to the membership, and the overwhelming majority of you declined. Believe me, I would give anything to be relieved of the burden of responsibility. But you chose to keep that responsibility with me, and I am exercising it in the only way I know how.

This website is not perfect, and the way we run it is not perfect. We know as well as anyone here our own problems and shortcomings. There will be plenty of opportunity for us to discuss changes that you all think are necessary. Now that the ATA forum is gone, the admins have felt that we can actually lighten up on some of the rules and enforcement. We've been having that discussion with the moderators, and we have been dropping occasional hints to the members. We fully intend to open the discussion up to the general DU membership.

We also intend to facilitate a discussion about group dynamics and feelings of exclusion in the DU Lounge. If the flood of emails and private messages are to be believed, there are plenty of people here who do not feel welcome here. I would not characterize any of these messages as coming from problem people. When you roll your eyes and ridicule those concerns, you are only serving to alienate them even more.

I have said my piece. The moderators are still on duty, but now I'm going to get off of DU for the weekend. I suggest that many of you do the same. Go for a walk. Smell the flowers. Hug your kids. If you stay on DU, I hope you will feel free to share your thoughts in this thread. If you still need to rant, I would prefer you to do it in my other thread, which is still open.

Thank you for listening.

Skinner
DU Admin

[BALLandCHAIN]

1. Thanks Skinner.

I liked the last paragraph the best. Good advice.

[Willy Lee]

172. Boxer- Skinner '08.

He's got what it takes!!!

[Warren Stupidity]

2. thank you nt eom big hug

[BikeWriter]

3. Enjoy your time off, Skinner.

[BlueIris]

105. Yes, do take that time. And enjoy.

It sounds like that is an essential step. I enjoyed my time offline and off DU yesterday. It was great for my stress level.

[MazeRat7]

4. Thanks for update, now go enjoy some much deserved time away (n/t)

[JimmyJazz]

5. Thank you.

I know this has been extremely time consuming and emotionally draining for you and the others. Please try to enjoy the rest of your weekend. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. I'll be off after progmom's show as well

It's not a question of not liking you or your decisions.

The reason self-moderation was poo poo'd was because it would never work with all the trolls here. It would ruin the site.

That said, on the other issue...it was quite misfortunate. Sniffa should have known better but the Princess had FAR more history. That's all.

[flvegan]

7. Thanks, Skinner. Enjoy your weekend.

[TheProphetess]

8. I would never want your job

I don't know how you do it, but thanks for doing it and doing it as fairly as you can. It is appreciated, even though it doesn't always seem like it. :)

[lpbk2713]

9. Thanks, Skinner. And have a good weekend.

FWIW I wouldn't have your job for anything. Better you than me.

[FizzFuzz]

10. I admire your leadership skills every time I see you do what leaders do

I am very impressed, have been right from my early join-up.


Glad to say I was pretty uninvolved with the upsets.
But I certainly am aware of the energy stir going on.

I think you and the other admins and mods are directing the flow positively.

Props to all.

:thumbsup:

[salin]

11. Props, Skinner

what a difficult week to manage at the DU.

Enjoy your time away.

[wtmusic]

12. The handling of Andy's threads

was exemplary.

And this is just a start. It shows what DU can do when we work together and put our minds and hearts together.

Don't know how I missed the Lounge issue...won't even go there

[auntAgonist]

13. Thank you. Your hard work and determination is much appreciated.

[GirlinContempt]

14. For what it's worth

I think you're doing a great job :hug:

[Bok_Tukalo]

15. Every pub has a its bouncers

Hard to bounce a regular.

Don't worry. 2006 is coming and focus will return to this website.

[Misunderestimator]

16. This website may not be perfect, but it's the best one on the internets.

I don't disagree with your decisions on this banning or any others I know of. It's understandable that after repeated warnings, your patience with a few users out of thousands would be tried. I like sniffa and even though I defend him in having been baited to the extreme, he went way over the line in response. I hope he will be able to work this out with you.

Have a great weekend.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

17. Thank you, Skinner.

I support your decisions on the board's intramural matters this week, and appreciate having a venue where matters of broader importance can be shared, discussed and acted on.

Case in point: this past week DUers helped spread the story about the NC political preacher and got him knocked him off his pulpit. That was a great thing, and just one of many real-life issues we've had the opportunity to impact recently.

It's a nice day and I have stuff to do, so I'm splitting. Enjoy your weekend. :hi:

[LoZoccolo]

18. On public accounting...

Understandably, some of you want a public accounting. You want us to lay it all out for the world, so you can all decide whether our actions were justified or not. I am sorry, but on a huge website like this, things cannot possibly work this way. Allowing the members to debate and second guess and sign-off on everything we do would ensure that nothing ever gets done.

It's not terribly raging-important to me, and I understand that ATA became a hassle to deal with with all the show-off posts and temper tantrums, but I think it did provide enough insight about how you like to run the board for us to get a good idea about what's acceptable to you and the reasons you'd give for it, and thus could reduce the number of run-ins between users and administration. I have no illusions that the effort you spend your time organizing must be some kind of a democracy where we have to sign off on what you do, I just think that putting certain issues in the open will help people adapt to how the board is intended to be run if they want to. It would give people a feel for your style of moderation. Some people will decide whether your actions are justified or not whether or not you give your reasons, and even if they don't do it here there are a few other places that they probably would; I'd think that you would want your reasons given by you, rather than fabricated by others due to the vacuum.

Like I said, I'm not upset or anything, I'm just saying I think it would avoid some problems if you brought it back.

[tyedyeto]

102. I feel the same about ATA.

It gave insight into what is considered acceptable behaviors on this forum.

It also gave answers to some of the tech aspects of the site. I know I learned about some of the forum features by reading some of the posts there.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

19. Thank you, Skinner...

Whenever I see your name heading up a new thread, I always feel like things are about to be clarified as never before. You do such an exemplary job here...Please keep doing it. It sounds to me as though some fine day, you might just decide to give this job to someone else, and get out of DU completely. I sincerely hope not. That would be a tragic day.
Take your time off and recharge your batteries! Come home to all of us who love and need your guidance!
Thank you so much for everything you do here, whether we are aware of it or not. My respect for you knows no bounds.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

20. Dialup keeps me safe

I stay out of threads with lots of replies, because they take forever to load.

So can someone, without opening any wounds, please tell me what Skinner is talking about? I've been around the lounge all week and it seems about the same is it ever was.

[WilliamPitt]

21. Excellent

[mogster]

22. Yay! Good one.

A walk sounds great! But actually, I'm gonna do spring cleaning.

:toast: to you people for some very common sense thinking, as usual.

[Karenina]

23. Love you, Skinner!

:loveya:

[Enraged_Ape]

24. You're all doing a terrific job

I agree with everything you said.

Take a break. Come back. Be healthy.

[Trajan]

25. Skinner ? ...

Have I told you lately how much I love you ? ...

You know, a humanistic, egalitarian, brotherhood-of-man kind of love ....

Skinner ? ... I love you ... and thanks ....

[Anarcho-Socialist]

26. Well...

...I am grateful for DU. It's the best progressive forum on the internet. Enjoy your weekend.

[NorthernSpy]

27. you've done the right thing

You haven't wronged anyone. You merely enforced the rules: rules that everyone has agreed to follow; rules that all of us -- including those recently outraged -- demand to have enforced at one time or another.

[Orsino]

28. Thanks to the mods.

I'm sure I would disagree with some of their decisions, but I'm glad they are there to make them. My current objections, which I'm keeping to myself, are mostly based on gut reactions of "I'm sure X would never do that," and are based on incomplete info.

I almost never catch any of the alleged offenses when they occur, so I don't feel I have anything concrete to add. I hope the mods take the Big Picture into account in ways I, as an ordinary poster, can't possibly do.

[mtnsnake]

29. Thanks for taking the time to deliver the message, w/some excellent advice

that you offered in your last paragraph about smelling the roses.

I would imagine you haven't slept too well the past few nights with all that's probably been running through your head. If you get a chance during your time off, find a small mountain to hike up at a nice relaxed pace. Best damn therapy going is to get into the woods with Mother Nature and get away from it all, at least for a while!

Take care and thanks again :)

[salin]

30. An open message to those visiting the lounge:

I have been here for awhile - though I don't get here as much as I used to. That said - because sometimes in those visits I am more likely to "catch up" with old friends - and at times doing so to the exclusion of getting involved in conversations on "unfamiliar" threads.

I didn't really think about this, nor realize that perhaps in doing this and not investing more time trying to get to know new friends that I was likely contributing to a sense of exclusion vs inclusion. I have not meant to do so. In all likelihood I have missed an opportunity to converse with a whole host of interesting folks. I regret that, and I regret any contribution to feelings of isolation.

From Skinner's note I take it that a number of silent folks feel excluded here - to the point of it being a "real problem" (inferred given how infrequently, until very recently, Skinner has had to get involved and make big statements in the lounge.) To you, I appologize. Realization made - now the job will be to try to be more open to meeting and conversing with folks I have not yet "met".

Cheers to you. I look forward to meeting you.

[HEyHEY]

31. I'd be happy and fine - if you'd just tombstone Canuckamok

;-)

[Floogeldy]

41. I want TS authority!

I'll clean this joint up real quick like.

}(

[Aristus]

32. Thanks for being such a great Admin., Skinner.

You're the best. I understand why you did what you did.

[Redstone]

33. Hey, perfect or not, it happens to be YOUR website.

Therefore, you get to make the decisions.

If I don't like your decisions, I can go somewhere else. I'm not inclined to go anywhere else right now,except to shoot pool for a couple of hours.

Redstone

[Deja Q]

34. Bingo.

And I generally agree with Skinner's decisions.

[ldf]

35. quite frankly,

WE are not worthy. (is there a bowdown smiley?)

like it or not, we ARE the Vast Left Wing Conspiracy.

there are a lot of responsibilities that come with that.

you guys are handling those responsibilities in an amazingly admirable manner. none of us could even begin to be as fair as you and the admin gang.

i can only say that i am honored to be a part of du. and it is you guys that created and made du what it has become. we have just been along for the ride. and for that i am grateful.

so, in summary,

admin O8)

deals with unruly posters :evilgrin: :crazy: :silly:

presents a dilemma, what to do? :shrug: :argh: :banghead:

thinks it over :think:

weighs alternatives :thumbsup: :thumbsdown: :spank: :nuke:

meanwhile some posters :hide: while getting :popcorn:

and other posters :rant:

admin O8)

makes the appropriate decision

and receives the expected responses from evil du'ers'

:toast: :woohoo: :loveya: :applause:

of course, with the occasional :grr: :puke: and additional :rant:

but in the end we have lived through another trying time on the best, and most important website on the web.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Madrone]

36. The Rules -

I find the republican's whining about their rules only being meant for those *other* people contemptible and disgusting. I feel the same way about it when I see it amongst members here.

If you just banned people suddenly with no warning (not that they should even need a warning - they should be adult enough and have enough responsibility to know how to behave) I could see that being a little unfair. From what you say - they are warned REPEATEDLY, but continue doing what they want because the rules aren't for *them*. I have no reason to doubt you - it would be easier for you to cave to the pressure of those representing the favored person. I respect your decisions, and sometimes you are even far too accommodating.

It's the old "coming to your house and pissing on your rug" analogy. This is your house - we're (mostly) welcome guests. And you need the weekend off to shampoo your carpet.

Fuck. It's like the Romper-Room Underground around here recently.

[Orangepeel]

37. you all go so far above and beyond...

lesser people would have chucked it all and bailed a long time ago. Sincere thanks for working so hard to make and keep this site great.

[tishaLA]

38. Thanks Skinner and mods!

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

39. Thank you

You guys do an unbelievably tough job & do it well. For the few DU'ers who complain about the decisions made, if you shut down this site & went & made like real money somewhere else, well I can just hear the screaming now.

best

[TreeHuggingLiberal]

40. You all do a wonderful job...

I understand the difficulty of making many of the decisions you all make...good luck

[yardwork]

42. Don't feel bad, Skinner.

You, the other admins, and the mods do a wonderful job. It's impossible to please everybody all the time. As we've seen, a very small number of people are unpleaseable. Either they're trolls or they just have trouble getting along with others.

The purpose of DU is far more important than that of a social club where everybody is happy and satisfied. We have work to do!

Sure, I come here to relax and laugh sometimes, but the best moments on DU are the ones where we actually put our minds and keyboards together and get something done. Parlock night, for example - a great victory for Our Side. 60 Minutes Night (ok, that one didn't work out as well, but DU was there and we kept some important facts on the table).

I'm glad that you're taking the weekend off. I hope you come back rested and ready to fight the Forces of Evil. We can't allow ourselves to be distracted by weak links on our side.

Thank you for all you do!

[Zenlitened]

43. I'd definitely like to see more discussion in the weeks ahead...

... of the issue of people feeling excluded in the Lounge. I really don't understand where that's coming from at all.

Is it a matter of not getting responses to one's posts? Heck, I think we've all had some Priceless Gems (or so we might imagine our own posts to be!) just sink like common stones. Is it a matter of the same people yapping incessantly to each other? Sure, there's a fair amount of that. But that makes them a group of people who've grown to know each other, not necessarily a clique.

I think, on some levels, it's actually more difficult to make friends online compared to the Real World. Online, we can't flash a smile when we walk into the room, we can't make eye contact with other people, or nod in agreement to conversation already in progress. We have to do that all with words and a few smilies.

I'd really like to learn more about why people feel shut out. From my experience, it seems the key is to just keep at it. Contribute to the conversation when you can. PM someone now and then, when he or she says something with which you particularly agree, or that made you laugh or smile or somehow brightened your day. Introduce yourself... but give others time to get to know you, time to see you in the crowd. It's a big "room." While we always have the option of dancing naked on the bar (or the written equivalent) it takes a while to make a positive, lasting impression.

:)

[Lavender Brown]

46. I'd like to talk about this, too

I think the use of the clique metaphor led to some hurt feelings when it was used by the mods, and I think that is because it was misinterpreted. Talking about it rationally will help a lot. I believe the popular people here are popular for a reason, and unpopular are unpopular for a reason (by unpopular I mean the recently not-so-dearly-departed, not the people who aren't well-known).

[Longgrain]

44. I guess this means no chance of certain banned posters being let back in

but for what it's worth, I respect the decisions you sometimes have to make for the betterment of the community as a whole.

Enjoy your weekend Skinner, hears to a brighter tommorrow...:toast:

[NorthernSpy]

47. come to think of it...

I guess this means no chance of certain banned posters being let back in

I don't know whether there's no chance or not, but I suppose it's plausible that the outpouring of outrage over Sniffa's banning had the effect polarizing the situation somewhat.

Eventually, it seemed to come down to a question of whether anyone would 'dare' to enforce the rules at all. That put people's integrity on the line. It's kind of hard to see how this confrontation helped the anti-banning case much.

[enigmatic]

45. Have a good weekend, Skinner

And thanks for this site:)

[graywarrior]

48. Like I said before, I have a huge crush on Skinner. See why?

[salin]

49. Sadly Skinner,

this morning I am seeing an escalation in incivility in the lounge. A raw hostility is growing. I thought it had peaked. But its still growing. It worries me, frankly. A discussion about group dynamics in the lounge at this moment in time, would be about as productive as a snail trying to cross quicksand. Waiting a little while for this discussion is probably a good thing. But I think the place is about to get uglier before it gets better. Mostly because folks don't seem to want to take into account their own actions and how it contributes to the dynamic. Little but self-justification/self-righteousness. Heck this will certainly get flamed, as being pro-civility, at this very odd moment in time, seems to be a flame-attractor.

When things do calm down, that discussion is very much needed. You may want to save some "examples", for discussion - not for finger pointing - but for folks, when not emotionally charged, to read and react to. Examples of exchanges (fictional, if need be) that can demonstrate 'exclusion' - or a sense of hostility that some not ennured to the lounge perceive. I look forward to the conversation.

[OKNancy]

54. Good post

:thumbsup:

[xultar]

58. Ditto! n/t

[Redstone]

61. I for one am not going to flame you. In fact. I'm planning to be as

nice as possible to everyone for a while (not that I'm generally hostile or anything) (without going to far and being smarmy) just to try to help cool things off.

And I will not enter into any threads that promote polarization, though that was my policy before anyway.

Redstone

[Goldmund]

62. You won't cool off as fast as those dudes waiting for us in Barrow

:evilgrin:

[enigmatic]

83. Screw Barrow!

If it ain't Yellowknife, it ain't cool!:)

[Redstone]

152. I've always thought that Yellowknife would be a good destination

for a loooong road trip.

Yes? Or not worth the effort? Sounds like you're familiar with the place or may even live there; tell me about it if you'd be so kind.

Redstone

[Redstone]

88. Especially if they remember our recommendation about

the sandals. You and I will have proper mukluks, of course.

I'm going to be at the place I mentioned tomorrow morning, just for the hell of it. Shouldn't be too cold there, and one must keep one's promises, yes?

Redstone

[Goldmund]

99. LOL

:rofl:

Or you can lie to them and then one day they'll vote for you for President.

[sundog]

68. I've read a lot of your posts today in the lounge

:thumbsup:

[salin]

90. thank you sundog.

that is much appreciated.

[faithnotgreed]

112. thank you skinner and salin and jimmyjazz

i have felt from each of you (and there may be others but these are the main ones i have read) that you are asking for decency and kindness that goes along very well with the fun and intellect that is the lounge

i deeply agree with those who are asking for kindness instead of the cruelty that i have seen most esp with the bannings over the past few weeks.
there is a frightening pack mentality that has been shown and not just in the banned threads but when new members post something contrary to popular opinion. its sad because for the most part the people who have been banned have shown themselves to have real emotional problems. the attacks on them and large scale rejoicing just further divide and stir up negative feelings

we are a progressive and amazing board. the moderators do an incredible and difficult job. in short - we are better than what i have seen of late (ie the victory slam dancing when someone is banned)

a little side note: one thing i have seen and question: why are new members who post in a basically respectful tone ( eg stated republicans and asking about our beliefs) sometimes shut down by mods in the gd and gd politics forums? i think a poster named tod comes to mind on that

[Lilith Velkor]

156. yo salin

I disagree w/you more often than not, but I must say this:

:applause:

[Arkana]

50. That's ok, Skinner dude--I've always felt welcome here.

Enjoy your time off--you deal with too much shit as it is. :)

[amandae]

51. I honestly think the current system works really well

This is a HUGE board with tens of thousands of members. You can only do the best that you can and I think the system in place allows for that and more. The mods and admins do NOT take such decisions (like banning members) lightly AT ALL. They are thoroughly discussed decisions which should give everyone here a sense of security about their own account on DU. It's not hard to follow the rules and in a community this big you HAVE to have rules. It's the only way to ensure valuable discussion doesn't get lost among all the crap that people could post. This is supposed to be a forum for like minds and there should be enough support to ensure that discussion continues. If you don't like someone, use the ignore button. That's what it was created for.

We don't have trigger-happy mods and Skinner, et. al. are SOOOOO good about picking mods who are smart and fair and willing to discuss major decisions. I have faith in the job that they do and the others here should, too. It's a hard, VOLUNTEER, job that most people here wouldn't want. Why make it harder for them?

There will always be disruptors, but we shouldn't let them ruin or rule our community. There will always be people who want to test the rules and if you're willing to risk being banned, there shouldn't be any surprise when you are. Skinner, admins and mods are really fair about handing out enough warnings and if you don't listen what do you think is going to happen?? It's not an easy decision for anyone but it's a necessary one.

DU has been my saving grace for the last couple years (especially since I live in a blood red state). I think it runs as well as any large board could and I have the UTMOST respect for Skinner, Elad, EarlG and those who volunteer to mod (especially the Lounge - this crazy place I love so much :loveya:).

Golly, gee, I love you guys! :loveya: :grouphug:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

52. What you guys are doing here

has never been done before
in the whole history
of the trail-blazing world.

[sleipnir]

53. It's a rough way to spend eternity, as a Admin.

I hope that all will go better soon.

[Tsiyu]

55. Great Post, Skinner

Enjoy your weekend and thank you for all you do. It's true; people see only one side of an issue or one side of a person. You folks have the benefit of the wide view.

It helps when we can discuss things- our impressions, motivations - with each other. I have come to new understanding about more than a few folks just by taking the time to hash out an issue. When you immediately shut someone out, or deliberately try to misrepresent what they are trying to communicate, you aren't building community. You are destroying it.

I am amazed at what we did for Andy, and that one of our own visited that Waynesville Church and reported back to us. DU can do amazing things.

It is my belief that there are certain elements who desire disruption and vitriole in the lounge. Why? Could be a host of reasons, but they WILL get called on it.

I appreciate you so much more than ever.

:yourock:

[EFerrari]

56. "The Hairdresser's Husband" is on @ 1:05pm, Sundance CH

if anyone could use a break and a laugh.

[salin]

57. Still listening

and kicking so others might listen as well.

[Goldmund]

59. This caught my eye:

If you do not have the guts to shut off someone you genuinely like, then you have no business being an administrator or moderator of a website like this. If you do not have the self-control and fairness to let someone remain a member of this website, even if you personally cannot stand that person, then you have no business being an administrator or moderator of a website like this. And if you do not have the guts to stick to your guns, even as a bunch of people rip you a new one and demand satisfaction, then you have no business being an administrator or moderator of a website like this.

I notice that the "If you do not have the guts to shut off someone you genuinely like" statement is paired with its mirror image: "If you do not have the self-control and fairness to let someone remain a member of this website, even if you personally cannot stand that person". But "And if you do not have the guts to stick to your guns" is left without a mirror image. And yet it has one: guts are sometimes manifested by sticking to your guns, but other times by changing your decisions. Those who believe in Bush's 'incompetence' -- I'm not one of them -- wish that he had the guts to change course once it became apparent he's driving the country into an abyss.

Don't make too much out of that analogy. I'm in no way suggesting that you're gutless because you're sticking to your guns; it very well could be that it's exactly courage that is making you stick to your guns. I'm saying that once you expand your paragraph like this, you've covered all possibilities: sometimes it's good to ban people you like, and sometimes to keep people you dislike; sometimes it's brave to stick to your guns, and sometimes it's brave to change your mind.

One can't possibly think of a more generic statement. It sheds no more light on the situation than there already was. In order for us to make sense out of why this time it was brave to stick to your guns and not change your mind, we would have to know the specifics of your decision. You didn't specifically address any of the hundreds of posts in that other thread which brought up all sorts of questions; this post reads like "Sometimes, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.".

"They were done in good faith", you say. And in all honesty, I believe that without a doubt. I'm not questioning the correctness of your decision (I can't possibly since I don't know why you made it), and I sure as hell am not questioning your good faith (you've proven your good faith time and time again). I am raising a concern about the aesthetic of making decisions that affect us all behind closed doors, in practical secrecy. I won't waste my breath on obvious statements such as "it's your right, it's your website" etc, since all I'm trying to do is donate my 5 cents into suggesting how to make DU better, not preach to you or complain.

Understandably, some of you want a public accounting. You want us to lay it all out for the world, so you can all decide whether our actions were justified or not. I am sorry, but on a huge website like this, things cannot possibly work this way. Allowing the members to debate and second guess and sign-off on everything we do would ensure that nothing ever gets done.

I, for one, would like public accounting not so I can decide whether your actions were justified or not, though I'm an opinionated dude and I'm sure I won't be able to help agreeing or disagreeing with specific decisions. I'd like public accounting of your (and other admins') decisions simply because I think that it would be healthier for the spirit of DU. It would also serve as a running log of examples of what certain rules mean in certain situations. It doesn't have to be ATA; it can be a forum in which only the admins and the mods could post, and say "Here's why such-and-such was banned", or "here's why this thread was deleted", or whatever. You don't have to write about every banned troll or every deleted post, but I think it's fairly easy to see which situations spark a wider interest and which don't. It's a public message board, and nobody comes here with expectations of privacy. I've never quite understood the policy of not disclosing why certain members were banned. I do know that this policy has made a lot of people, especially relative newbies, squeamish to post things because they don't know if it could get them banned. And that kind of a vibe is a real bad thing to have on a progressive board.

Believe me, I would give anything to be relieved of the burden of responsibility. But you chose to keep that responsibility with me, and I am exercising it in the only way I know how.

I'm not criticizing the way you're excersizing that responsibility, and I'm not even questioning it. But I do wish there was less secrecy. It would make it a healthier board.

[Tsiyu]

66. Perhaps it's a privacy issue

As the good CheddaRev states below, some things might be best left unsaid.

Perhaps the privacy and feelings of individuals outweigh the right of DU membership at-large to know?

I know that the ferocity of some when discussing this issue indicates this storm has been brewing for a while. These types of issues crop up everywhere. How we handle the issues is up to us.

But perhaps some things should be left alone.

[Ladyhawk]

60. You guys do a great job.

You have to be completely objective when making big decisions, which is not easy to do. I really liked one of the members who got banned, but I don't know what happened. To get banned on DU, you have to flagrantly break the rules. A simple misstep or two won't do it. Otherwise, half the people who post in GD would have been gone a long time ago, probably myself included. :)

Personally, I'm glad you haven't given in to the "cult of personality" that is the modus operandi of most forums. Giving in to the "cult of personality" ends up hurting people in the end. On another forum which shall remain nameless, I watched the mods allow one person to repeatedly break the rules simply because he was popular. He hurt a lot of people and the mods and forum regulars let him get away with it. Trust me, folks, we don't want to do it that way. :(

I've never wanted to be a mod because I would have a hard time banning someone I liked, even if their actions warranted it. Also, I worry I would toy with banning someone I didn't like over some minor infraction.

Skinner has it right, folks. No matter how much you liked or disliked someone who was banned, I'm sure everything was handled in a reasonable fashion.

I've seen it done the other way; you wouldn't like it one bit.

[RevCheesehead]

63. Thanks for giving us true leadership, Skinner.

<If the flood of emails and private messages are to be believed, there are plenty of people here who do not feel welcome here. I would not characterize any of these messages as coming from problem people. When you roll your eyes and ridicule those concerns, you are only serving to alienate them even more.>

For those who don't "get it" about the cliques, posse, herd-mentality, etc., I suggest you read carefully. Not everyone feels comfortable posting their feelings or reactions in the Lounge. Just look at Skinner's other thread and see what happened when someone posted a differing opinion. Those people were immediately set upon by friends of "person A". I read that thread when it was at 600 responses - and it was immediately clear what the "consensus" of the "lounge" was going to be.
(In all honesty, I think if you reply to someone's post with :eyes:, you are making a personal attack, albeit a mild one. That reply is no better than Bill O'Reilly screaming "shut up!" to his guests. I would be glad if that "smilie" disappeared.)

Perhaps it would help if we all spent the next few days THINKING before we post, and ask ourselves "if this person was sitting in front of me, would I say this out loud?"

And maybe we could remind one another that not every thought needs to be expressed. Sometimes it's more prudent to say nothing.

[salin]

64. I don't do much communicating by PM

but as one who has voiced a different view than the predominant vocalized one, I have suddenly received many, many pms - some from long timers (not that this matters) who frankly, are uncomfortable saying ANYTHING on these threads because the mob mentality/mass attack is perceived to be so strong right now.

In fairness, I have only been hit with one person attacking me for expressing a counter view. Thus the perception of automatic flame might be stronger than the reality. Nonetheless, just based on the messages sent to me ... a whole lot of people feel "shut down" by the lounge right now. That is, we have collectively created an atmosphere that is intimidating to many - that creates concern that if one doesn't respond in some unknown but "correct" way, that one might suddenly not just get a hostile response - but an entire hostile pileon.

Perception becomes reality - when so many people act on it that it is transformed into that reality. It is one reality I would hate to see be the reality of the DU lounge.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

69. I think it's human nature to want to defend a friend, don't you?

I am reminded of a situation a few months back, where a bunch of posters in a DU Group defended one of their own, even though she made personal attacks on other members in General Discussion. As I recall, some of those defended her actions, saying she was 'baited' or 'provoked'.

I am NOT defending sniffa's actions. He definitely pushed the envelope, and did not show enough self-control when he was provoked. He is, however, a friend and a positive force in the Lounge.

I also think that the criticisms of cliques/posse/herd mentality is a reflection of deep-seated insecurities on the part of the accusers. People post to one another because they like one another, not to exclude others. Some of us have formed friendships outside of DU, and because we're often thousands of miles from one another, we tend to post silliness in the Lounge. It is not meant to be exclusionary, and part of the reason people view it that way is because of experiences in life where they were exluded.

[RevCheesehead]

70. sometimes it's best not to respond at all.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine.

[Goldmund]

71. "Sometimes" is an awfully meaningless word.

What times?

[RevCheesehead]

74. now.

[Goldmund]

76. That's an example --

-- I was asking for a definition.

[RevCheesehead]

77. ...

http://dictionary.reference.com/

[Zenlitened]

78. .

:eyes:










Kidding, kidding! :D

[Goldmund]

80. LOL ok

Still doesn't answer my question. :)

[Lilith Velkor]

157. !

:rofl:

[NorthernSpy]

84. understood, and on the other hand...

I also think that the criticisms of cliques/posse/herd mentality is a reflection of deep-seated insecurities on the part of the accusers. People post to one another because they like one another, not to exclude others. Some of us have formed friendships outside of DU, and because we're often thousands of miles from one another, we tend to post silliness in the Lounge. It is not meant to be exclusionary, and part of the reason people view it that way is because of experiences in life where they were exluded.

Well, I don't know whether the people who are complaining of cliques suffer from more deep seated insecurity than anyone else, and I don't think that anyone was saying the people shouldn't use the boards to connect with their friends. My take is that it really wouldn't kill anyone to spend a portion of his/her time here simply being a good citizen. For example, I try to make a point of responding to posts that have been left to languish without much response.

Really, it's not much, but I think that sort of thing is about all anyone wanted.



(edit: posted prematurely, needed more words)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

85. Some of the DUers that are being referenced

are the first to welcome new DUers and chat with others. I think some of these same DUers also have strong opinions and strong personalities. I was intimidated by some of these folks when I first joined. It's human nature. To carry a chip on your shoulder or whine about persecution is something different entirely.

[DS1]

124. Exactly

There are some people that come here who are just dying to get some attention, and they have some sort of fear that they shouldn't participate in some of the threads started by some of the most known DUers *in the fucking lounge :eyes: ) and that fear leads to resentment.

Fuck that. Participate. If you can't participate then go somewhere else, don't whine about something you've never tried. I know a lot of DUers in person, and not a single one of them would make a harsh judgement on somone that replied to their posts, unless it was some freeperish bullshit. And there's no freepers here, right?

So sit down, participate, or shut up about it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

135. This is just getting ridiculous

I am nice to people, except when they spout obvious bullshit or are here to disrupt. Maybe it's a cultural/regional thing, as Northeasterners tend to be more straightforward.

[tjwmason]

126. ExacLy - there was no Lounge cLique to my mind

CLique impLies a cLosed group; this was simpLy a gathering of friends, and these friends incLuded some of the most open and weLcoming peopLe on the whoLe of this board.

[NorthernSpy]

151. look -- you don't have to do anything you don't want to

I doubt that anyone would care to be spoken to only out of obligation. And me, I'm having a mighty hard time giving a hoot in hell who in the Lounge talks to whom. My real home is the Gungeon, where everybody talks to everybody -- or at least, everybody trades fire with everybody.

I think that you're misportraying what the people who do feel excluded have been saying here. And I also think that your characterization of them as neurotic wallflowers is unfair. But it doesn't matter, because -- as I've conceded -- you needn't do anything you'd rather not do, and that's that.

[salin]

92. Very recently I had a long talk with a youth I work with

and the whole gist of the thing was the difference between intent - and reception. Even when one doesn't "intend" to send a certain message, if it is repeatedly received by other people as meaning something else - then perhaps it is time to reflect a little bit upon the difference between the reception (how it is perceived by others) and the intention. Sometimes a little tweaking can change the perception/reception.

Frankly it has been eye opening to me. The multiple messages I have received, some by LONG time Duers, thanking me for taking an alternative position to the "all is well, just a tiny mistep by one - but lets leave as is in the lounge". I don't really do the pm thing. These are not folks I am in any usual contact (and based on one conversation the last direct interchange may have been several years ago.) What is the point? Even people here at DU for a long time, feel intimidated to voice an opinion not in sync with the vocal and active majority at this point in time. Why? Witnessing reactions that often go past intellectual disagreement to personal hostility.

Suddenly the adult to adolescent discussion I had with a youth earlier this week - takes on another dimension.

[Tsiyu]

100. salin, you are one person who is making sense, but few will listen

Some people see only black and white where others see shades of gray in between. It is so difficult to articulate the feeling in the lounge lately without incurring the wrath of those who might help DU so much more if they'd take a few moments to read and consider another point of view. This is what stuns me. I never knew Dems to be intolerant or unwilling to look at the Big Picture. This leads me to seriously question the motivations of a select few on this board.

There is most certainly nothing wrong with expressing friendship and affection for others here, whether you have met them or not. I've done it. But there is a difference between exchanges between friends and threads that really are more chat than public material. I see no need to prohibit those type posts, but when you have two or three lovefest posts with responses in the hundreds posted by a handful of members versus the rest of the page's 25 posts with only 2 or 3 responses there is something wrong with that forum. It was not this way in the past.

Are people afraid to post? They were not in the past. Why now? If you don't care, good for you. But some of us want to know why, so please accept our curiosity and bear with us while we try to make the Lounge enjoyable for everyone.

I am glad there are so many warm, caring relationships around here but some of these "big" threads are not necessarily intended to be open to the community at large. (Those who understand what I'm saying will and have concurred). Now, you can hide these threads. Of course. But the point is, if people want to use the forum as their own personal pedestal, they will get some criticism from others. Call it deep-seated insecurity. Call it jealousy. Come up with every Repuke character assasination you can think of. It doesn't change the way people perceive the Lounge.

Personally, I call it folks desiring a more egalitarian, less cult-of-personality driven atmosphere. And i am not naive enough to believe that those divisive individuals are not FULLY aware of their actions and how they impact the group as a whole.

We can and will do better. We are bigger than those small individuals.

[Zenlitened]

106. Could you share some of the points made in those PMs?

Without naming names, of course. It'd be great if you could distill out some of the main concerns and share them here for discussion. :)

[Zenlitened]

79. When you say that not everyone feels comfortable...

... posting their feelings or reactions in the Lounge...

Do you mean in general, or are you referring specifically to the Princess/Sniffa threads?

I agree that, in the latter, people have staked out clear positions and are willing to defend them -- just as in any thread in any forum.

But in the Lounge in general, I can't imagine why anyone would be fearful of posting in any of the endless "Pics of My Cat," "What's For Dinner?" or "Random Song Lyrics" threads.

What are the sorts of threads or situations where people are feeling intimidated?

[salin]

109. Sadly - in general.

Clearly some threads aren't going to attract the behavior being lamented - but it seems that on threads where a group sentiment emerges there is an impression that there is a group of folks who very quickly respond, simultaneously, and attack any poster - esp if a lower count - who expresses an alternative perspective.

There was also an expressed view that said flames have moved from snarky (snide/clever) to hostile, ugly and at times cruel. THat is not just about the Princess as folks - some longer timers - didn't want to say anything on the threads appearing yesterday, or on Skinners first two threads - why? for fear of receiving said treatment.

My commentary on the first paragraph concern - fits into the when intent no longer matters as how things are percieved (esp if perceived by many to be this way) starts to shape reality:
I don't think there is a group of folks sending pms or chatting and organizing group pileons. I do think that like minded folks have found friendship and respond to the same things. It is just that in the current tone, sometimes it works to egg each other on... By default the dynamic sort of creates an “incrowd /outcrowd” appearance, because over time other people stop interacting (intimidated) which lowers the number of alternative views expressed on the thread which when viewing/reading makes those who regularly do respond, and probably do see things in a like-wise way (hence the agreement) appear to be quick to “gang up” – given that there is so little alternative view expressed on said thread. Self-perpetuating prophecy, if you will. Also troubling is the perception that most vulnerable to the group pileons are folks with lower post counts - regardless of how long they have "been" at DU. Why - because it prevents more voices from participating which might have allowed things to self-modulate and moderate instead of escalating.

That highlights the main sentiments that I "heard". Oh, and the "good luck there" as in - the belief that no one that ought to reflect seems to be doing so.

[Zenlitened]

110. Well, it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

I think the Lounge has taken on a more serious tone than it used to have, so maybe there's more opportunity now for sharp disagreements which can lead, as you've pointed out, to some lousy behavior.

(I wonder if it's time to restore the Meeting Room to a more prominent place. It's still under a death sentence, with the expectation that the various new forums and groups would serve to replace it. But maybe there is still a need for a a more serious-minded yet still freewheeling space.)

I don't think the Love Sniffa/Hate Princess threads can really be used as examples of a typical Lounge day. It will be more instructive, in my view, to see if the sort of pile-on behavior you describe emerges in threads that are more neutral initially, less emotionally-charged. I'm thinking of the Indoor Cat/Outdoor Cat sort of threads, which seemed to quickly generate strong feelings on either side. (Although I don't know that for certain, frankly, because I tend not to read threads where people are arguing over something that's not important to me.) Time will tell.

(edit spelling)

[gardenista]

111. Whether the pile-on behavior happens in a Princess/Sniffa thread

or a Cuban Liberal thread, or an indoor cat/outdoor cat thread is irrelevant. The pile-on behavior leaves a lasting mark, and not just on the poster to whom it it directed. Others read these threads and realize that if they don't go along with the rest of the gang, they'll be in for the same treatment. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is. It's the nasty content of some of the posts that matters.

[Zenlitened]

113. The reason I'd except Sniffa/Princess threads...

or CubanLib threads... is because they're the culmination of a LOT of intense emotion. They lead to a lot of venting, much of it angry. I don't it's useful to draw conclusions from those sorts of threads.

[gardenista]

118. But I think that's what Skinner is asking about here.

And I think that these are the threads that do damage to the community, so they should be considered in the discussion.

[Zenlitened]

120. Hmmm. I guess we'll disagree. I had the impression...

... he was describing the Lounge atmosphere in general Hopefully, he'll come back rested and rejuvenated from his weekend off, and will shed more light on the matter.

[gardenista]

122. He wants to discuss group dynamics, or at least that is my impression.

I share your hope that he'll shed more light on the matter, and also that we can have some productive discussions about group dynamics in the lounge, and elsewhere. My hope, also, is that there will be an atmosphere of mutual cooperation and honesty, and an opportunity build a stronger, inclusive community.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

114. There's a solution to that: it's called the Ignore feature or Hide Thread

if you have problems woth specific posters, put them on ignore.

if they don't go along with the rest of the gang, they'll be in for the same treatment

that's crap. do you really think there's a posse here out to persecute you? :eyes:

[gardenista]

115. Thanks, Kathy, your post is a lovely example.

And your reversion to the classic, "Don't like what I'm saying, asshole? Then put me on ignore", is so predictable.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

121. No, it's called taking responsibility.

you can either whine in order to get your way or push your own agenda, which seems to be a pattern on DU. Or you can be an adult and avoid topics or people that annoy you. It's really that simple.

[gardenista]

128. How to take personal responsibility

1. Imply that a poster with whom you don't agree has a personality disorder.

2. Accuse them of whining in order to get their way. (What was it I was trying to "get"?)

3. Accuse them of a pattern of "pushing their agenda". (Again, please clarify the "agenda"?)

4. Use insulting animations to amplify your point, i.e. :eyes:

Where do you get the idea that this topic annoys me? There is a big difference between being annoyed and amused, and the irony of this exchange certainly falls in the latter category.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

136. Nice to see you're spouting the same nonsense

the pattern of your posts is quite entertaining, especially when all the Cuban_Liberal stuff was going down. Enjoy DU. The Ignore button is your friend.

[gardenista]

145. What is the motive for this vendetta of yours? nt

[bettyellen]

175. no no no, all the people and topics here must please me! or else i will

petiton skinner to censor such posters and discussions that annoy me.
also, he must get rid of the disrespectful smileys now! no more rolling of eyes, because it hurts me so much. gosh, i'm scared of the lounge, please remake it for me.
it's called topping from the bottom, a technique popular with narcisisists, psychopaths and those that suffer from borderline personality disorder.
yeah, let's make more rules and censorship to cater to them, because then they'll be happy. LOL. like it would ever end. :rofl:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

176. It doesn't seem like it ever will end.

And here's my favorite smiley: :eyes:

[salin]

116. just

tiny bit of poetic irony going on.

Just two or more responses - and we can have another pileon.
(on edit adding this comment-- granted the first response was a tad dismissive - it wasn't of pileon tempremant... but the quickness which with both appear - and the tone it is taking on, is indicative of the concerns I have started hearing, and on reflection am having myself)

Oh- but it will be in the poster's head, of course. Not real at all. No snide insuations of mental instability via personal complexes or anything.

And no damage for those reading - and seeing it happening... again.

[Zenlitened]

123. If you're accusing me of taking part in a "pile-on"...

... I wish you would come out and say so. Because I am not.

And if it was my comment that you referred to as "dismissive"... well, I don't see how we're ever going to be able to communicate here. I simply stated my opinion.

Perhaps, in the interest of DU harmony, it would be helpful if we weren't so quick to jump to conclusions about a poster's "intent." There's a real danger of confusing our own misperceptions with reality.

[salin]

125. only dismissive

in the sense of dismissing the overall concern voiced by pinning it directly and only to the princess sniffa moment - as if simply waiting for calm will show whether or not there is a problem. Ergo, slightly (though very kindly) dismissing the poster.

Wasn't talking of your intent, but the content of your post that seemed to function as a magnifying glass... in the sense of - okay lets just look at this part of the page -and if a little later there are still problems elsewhere on the page... lets talk then.

[Zenlitened]

133. "Whatever"

Now THAT would be dismissive. :D

Seriously, though. I don't know how I can state my disagreement with a poster without rejecting -- or dismissing -- her argument.



(edited typo)

[salin]

139. psst when I made the post

the visual on the thread made much more sense than it does now. single thread - one post questioning norms.... two immediate hits as if... bingo bango and the second one was - er - hostile. Yours was more of tone what I would cast as ... I know its not fair so forgive me... but in the course of these conversations there has been a contingent of folks who seem to deny there is any problem so locate the problem directly at the princesses feet. Hence I, perhaps incorrectly, read yours and catagorized it that way.

I get the sense that you very much want the problem to be just a heat of the moment thing, and not perhaps that there are some ongoing dynamics issues that have left some folks pretty upset. Here I project upon you... I think you might be doing this because you seem to be a very optomistic, kind soul who doesn't like to see folks (esp if folks are remaining hidden) upset.

Back to point - in my read of your response to her post... it seemed to miss her point (so "dismissive may have been strong", I appologize) and go to another one - and thus not address what she is raising - and in that way (just not addressing) i read it more as dismissing the central point rather addressing it with a counter argument. Could all be a misread on my part. No offense intended.

[Zenlitened]

143. Well, I'm not an optimist, nor am I a kind soul...

... as I'm sure a review of my post history will attest! :D

My point is not that this is a heat-of-the-moment issue, but that the back-and-forth snipes Sniffa/Princess threads are.

In a scientific experiment, I would consider them anomolies or extreme cases that tend to skew the rest of the data. It's more instructive, in my view, to look at the Lounge on a more typical day, to see if the back-and-forth is as negative as some feel it is.

(edited to attempt to clarify)

[gardenista]

144. Thanks, Salin.

Just for the record, I didn't perceive ZL's post as dismissive, but as missing the point.

And, I think your projection as to motives is also probably right on target, i.e., a desire not to see people upset.

I think there is a genuine effort at understanding, and I appreciate it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

132. You have made some good points, but I refuse to walk on eggshells

I refuse to apologize for the fact that I like some people on DU. I even hang out with some of them.

The insinuations of mental instability are not there. The assertion that some folks are still suffering from the inferiority complexes they experienced in high school is valid.

I had three quick responses to my post, but I don't consider it a pile-on. I consider this a discussion. But then again, maybe I'm not as oversensitive as some.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

117. Yes, there is an ignore feature.

And I mostly ignore the lounge. However, some of this pile on response I've seen in other forums. And that's where it bothers me. In fact, you posted earlier that one of the 'group' had 'attacked' another DU & that said group had come to her/his defense (the 'attacker') & said that she/he was 'baited'. I really don't understand how an adult can be baited on a message board but I'll give you that point. The larger picture here is that in your own words the 'group' rallied around their member. At least, that is what I got out of you post.

On another issue, if it is easier to put people on 'ignore' than why are so many defending sniffa & saying he was 'baited' etc.? How can it be both ways? It's easy to ignore someone or it's impossible because someone baits another poster. I know you have posted that sniffa went over the line, but I'm curious if you have any insight.

best

edited to add damn I had no idea other posters were going to jump in & now we might look as if we're piling on.I didn't mean to, but I feel my points are too valid to self delete.

best again

[Kathy in Cambridge]

127. No, you definitely have a point. I avoided the Princess' threads like the

plague, because I knew I couldn't be civil to her. That was called avoiding a potentially explosive situation, which sniffa failed to do. I love the guy, but he should have acted more maturely.

On the other hand, I have noticed people whining and complaining on DU to 'control' the discourse, and to in effect shut down discussion of a topic that they don't like. And I see this happening with the complaints about 'pile-ons' and 'cliques'.

[salin]

130. Kathy, I agree I have seen

the whine approach to shut topics down. I agree it is irritating.

However, as a side effect, perhaps of all the negativity stirred up by the princess... things have gotten much meaner here. Personal mean, beyond just snarky n snide. And there is a perceived pileup mentality - that is real. Elsewhere I try to explain how it can happen - even if it is not intended to happen... when it is a perception. I don't think that Skinner is reacting to a couple of whiners on this issue.

I accept him at his word, that he believes there are real group dynamic problems in the lounge. I have seen them myself. And for whatever reason, some folks (including long-timers) do not feel comfortable speaking out and have been pmming me. Call them cowardly, whatever. But isn't it a moment to reflect that maybe there is some problem ... otherwise - we just stay in the same (perhaps dysfunctional) place.

I'll take the ole silly, crazy, sometimes a bit over the edge in inneundo - but hey I don't have to participate in those discussions, lounge back any day... over the slightly stressed out and very reactive one of this weekend.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

140. I just hope the Lounge gets back to its old self

and I agree that Skinner is doing his best to get things back to normal. :-)

[salin]

142. Indeed...

and I get the sense that we will get there... peace.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

131. I, on the other hand,

have seen alliances rally around each other when someone outside of their 'group' points out an alternative view or thought. Again, I'm not talking about the lounge. I'm talking about the other forums.

Both of us see things through our own prisms, & both of us could be right, but to dismiss all concerns as just some DU'ers having an 'inferiority complex' or something else, seems to me to dismiss their real concerns & make yours the only reality.

I'm sure Skinner will come in sometime next week & there will be another discussion about this. So I'm going to bow out until then.

For what it's worth, this isn't the first blow up on DU & it won't be the last. This too shall pass.

best

[Kathy in Cambridge]

138. I agree-this too shall pass. And hopefully soon.

[Zenlitened]

137. "... now we might look as if we're piling on..."

That's the danger of assuming there is meaning behind what is merely coincidence. I'm glad you pointed that out! :hi:

[salin]

141. hehe - yes it is the poetic irony to the poetic irony post

funny when that happens.

Cheers to all.

[hfojvt]

148. I am guessing that it is less sinister than that

Piling on and/or flaming are more like GD than the lounge. If people do not feel welcome, I am guessing it is because they post on threads or start threads and hear mostly crickets chirping.
I do not think that is bad behaviour or sinister from loungians. Anyone with a circle of friends is going to spend more time talking and responding to them, to the partial exclusion of outsiders.
And groups of friends, long-time friends do have inside jokes and shared experiences that may be difficult for others to share. A newbie needs to be patient and not expect to be quickly added to a circle of friends even if other newbies may seem to quickly get a circle of friends as well. Maybe they are more in tune with the lounge majority. It is not sinister or stuck up if there are more Led Zeppelin or Green Day fans here than there are fans of Chris LeDoux, for example.
There are some perfectly understandable reasons for people to feel left-out that do not mean that the "popular people" are snobs or jerks.

[gardenista]

91. Thanks for that. nt

[RevCheesehead]

154. Wow. All this response to a simple post, expressing my opinion.

(Gotta flex these muscles more often!)

I thought I made my point in the last two paragraphs:

< Perhaps it would help if we all spent the next few days THINKING before we post, and ask ourselves "if this person was sitting in front of me, would I say this out loud?"

And maybe we could remind one another that not every thought needs to be expressed. Sometimes it's more prudent to say nothing. >

Apparently, the answer is "no." Oh, the irony of it all! :rofl:

[Zenlitened]

155. Yes, let's all say nothing... on a discussion board.

:wtf:

[all.of.me]

65. skinner, you have a tough job, but you do it very very very well

it's like being mayor of a city! there are 60,000+ people here, and you'll never be able to please everyone.

thanks for all your energy.

[cestpaspossible]

67. Wow whatever it was I missed

it sounds unpleasant.

[polmaven]

86. I'm hearing ya!

I think I'm very glad I missed it. :hide:

[cestpaspossible]

89. I like that new smilie

lol

[DoveTurnedHawk]

72. Fantastic Post!

And great job.

:thumbsup:

DTH

[Melynn]

73. Enjoy your weekend off

You deserve it.

[Historic NY]

75. Yup its a tough job.....but someone has to do it............thanks..

[Terran]

81. I have no frickin' idea what happened

with all these banned members, but as a former Mod, Skinner, I have a very high level of respect for and trust in what you do. I am 100% confident that all you guys, and the Mods as a group, did the right thing, even though I have virtually no idea why you all did it.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

82. A wild guess.

Somebodies got the boot cuz they coudnt control themself.

[Nomad559]

87. I myself

agree with your decision to ban both Sniffa and Princess.

[gardenista]

93. Thanks, Skinner. nt

[RetroLounge]

94. Thanks Skinner

It's your site, and I am grateful for its existence...

I've been away for a few days, and it looks like I'm glad I missed whatever the heck happened...

RL

[Redneck Socialist]

95. Ya know...

the rules on this board are absurdly easy to follow. If someone lacks the self control, or doesn't have enough of a basic sense of civility to follow them they deserve to get their ass banned. It's pretty simple, don't be an asshole, be civil or at the very least keep your fingers silent.

As for the lounge I honestly I don't get this whole "clique" thing. Friends talk to each other and ignore people they don't know, that is simple human nature.

I'm a lot more concerned about the "freeper behind every bush" mentality that some self appointed guardians of DU seem to have. That is far more corrosive to the atmosphere here than any shenanigans in the lounge.

[VOX]

96. Big thanks, Skinner. Thanks also to the Mods, who are DU's umpires.

Without them, there is chaos.

The collective effort of the Admins and Mods is **very** much appreciated.

:thumbsup:

[Radical Activist]

97. Do I have kids to hug?

What does skinner know that I don't? hmm...there was that one girl in southern utah that I never saw again...

[In_The_Wind]

98. Thanks for everything Skinner

enjoy your time away

[Moderator]

101. kick

n/t

[Catchawave]

103. Thank you Skinner, Elad, Earl and

the hardest working Mods on the "internets" !

Please don't let a few disgruntled citizens of our community discourage or overshadow all that is wonderful on DU. It's also helpful to know that the "ignore poster" and "hide thread" features can be the DUers best friends !

I guess I missed the latest round of tombstones too, but that's what the rules are for, and it was their choice not to follow them and ignore the warnings :shrug: The fault is not with the admin/mods, that's for sure :)

Again, thank you all for your dedication and fairness for keeping the DU community safe and enjoyable. :grouphug:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

104. It's a tough job, and somebody's got to do it.

I'm glad that someone isn't me!

Thanks Skinner! :beer:

[valis]

107. It's hard work! :) :)

:)

[melnjones]

108. Thanks Skinner

I think you're doing a good job with some tough decisions.

[undeterred]

119. Besides the hide threads and ignore buttons

there's also a backward arrow on most internet browsers.

Sometimes the best thing to do for a messageboard is to write out one's frustrations but not post them.

:kick:

[Longgrain]

134. I've actually have done that a few times...

written out a response, then stopped myself short of hitting "Post" thinking "Maybe not a good idea."

[tjwmason]

129. Thank you for your continuing hard work

On the basis of the information which I have to hand, I stiLL disagree with one of the decisions made (though I fuLLy accept that my information is incompLete, and thus my judgement wiLL onLy be a partiaLLy reserved one) - nonetheLess, decisions have to be made, and they shouLd be supported.

Hope that you have a spLendid break.

[fortyfeetunder]

146. Time for a new board: DU Common Ground

Maybe it's time we looked inwardly to ourselves to see what type of culture we are developing as DUers.

My vision of DU as inclusive, respectful of diverse opinions, and fun.

How about we come to some common ground by talking about it. Sounds idealistic, but if we don't bring change within ourselves, how do we expect the rest to change?

[MindPilot]

147. Another "me too" post;

Skinner, thanks, you're doing a great job!!

[GalleryGod]

149. Graduation was Today: The Class of '05 Looked Unsure and Unsettled

Commencement ALWAYS makes me recall better days, when everything seemed possible and the world was fresh and new.

Nicer, better days, indeed......:hippie:

[Moderator]

150. xxx

n/t

[Orangepeel]

153. I hope you had a great weekend off!

:hug:

[jpgray]

158. Well, I think mistakes have been made. And they should be undone

First off, last I checked, the mod corps have included "two" (possibly one) liars who purposely misled DUers and disrupted the board while organizing alerts on posters they didn't like. So the mod system is hardly infallible. In fairness, all the DU mods I know are great people who I do trust, but mistakes can certainly be made and they have been made with regard to mod choices.

If the "whole story" consists of alerts, PMs to admin and deleted messages then anyone who isn't interested in constantly alerting and bitching to mods and admins doesn't have the same exposure for their side of the story as those who have no compunction about abusing those tools. The "whole story" in that case is essentially one sided, giving the people who don't abuse the machinery of DU justice to win arguments a decided disadvantage in arguing their case. Both sides can engage in the same snarky behavior, but if only one alerts on said behavior, what happens? There's no guarantee the posts of the other will be noticed or deleted. In this way, a group of posters can make one dissenting voice seem like a veteran disruptor due to the mass of alerts and PMs to admin and moderators in one direction and the utter or relative lack of such in the other direction. In other words, this system as I understand it would seem to reward and elevate the opinions of those who choose to abuse it.

I haven't been a mod. I have no idea how the system works beyond the descriptions I've heard. But if I understand it correctly, a person who doesn't alert often and likes to post on controversial topics can quickly have a one-sided argument of alerts and PMs built against him or her. Do the mods pull up the record and say, "this poster has a history of disruption--look at all the alerts and admin PMs he/she has caused"? If a group of people choose to disrupt by carefully abusing the alert and PM functions, it seems there isn't any real way to combat that. A nondescript poster could have a nasty "record" without doing anything more than being opinionated in controversial areas.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, and I don't have the slightest idea how things actually work, but these sorts of things do concern me. I've seen people banned in cases where it seems completely capricious and arbitrary, and I've seen people disrupt disrupt and disrupt without being fed the granite. And that doesn't make any sense to me.

There is no weakness in admitting errors when they happen and taking steps to redress the wrongs they've caused. I think true weakness is the opposite, as certain politicians prove time and time again.

[TheProphetess]

159. Perhaps this can help

Maybe because I'm relatively new here, the rules of DU are fresh in my mind. You can find answers to your questions by looking here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

<snip>
People who repeatedly and willfully break the rules, or who generally engage in rude, anti-social behavior, will be banned. It doesn't matter if you are a fellow progressive, a long-term member of this community, or a donor.

<further down the page>
How the moderators do their job
The moderators of Democratic Underground enforce the rules based on consensus. Whenever a moderator takes action, they are required to first get a consensus from the available moderators that action is necessary and appropriate. What constitutes a consensus varies based on the situation. If a rule violation is obvious, then action only requires a second opinion from one other moderator. But if a situation is unclear, highly subjective, or likely to be controversial, then the opinions of many moderators are required. Whatever the situation, one moderator has the power to veto any enforcement action. All moderator actions are logged by our software, and can be reviewed by the administrators.


I think that you might be jumping to the conclusion that moderators assume that every alert should go on someone's "record" as evidence of bad behavior. According to the detailed rules, that sounds quite unlikely.

In addition, I'm not sure if you realize that you are implying that any alerting is "abusing the system" - I sincerely hope that is not what you meant. Sure, abuse can occur, but I think that alerting is essential in a large community forum like this. The mods and admins can't possibly be aware of all activity and when members find violations to the rules posted for this site, then alerting helps them do their jobs.

[northzax]

171. Well, I can give you my experience as a moderator

it is not easy, in any way shape or form to tombstone someone. There is a lot of discussion from moderators across the fora before such a drastic move is taken, and I am certain that before the banning of a popular poster with a high count that there was a lot of discussion, and most of the moderators knew who they were talking about and had some experience with the people in question.

To reiterate, you actually have to work hard to get tombstoned, it doens't take one post, or even ten posts, you have to consistently ignore the advice of the moderators and administrators to cool down and stop what you're doing. And they are specific.

And there is a lounge clique, and it's nothing new, every so often another clique forms and turns the lounge into their own private playground, which is perfectly fine. But then someone begins to think that the constant affirmation of other posters means he/she can push the limits, it's 'their lounge' after all, and everyone loves them. So they do, and the affirmation, the fact that people laugh off their transgressions because they are popular among other posters, leads them to begin thinking that the rules of the clique supercede the rules of the board. And so they cross the line, egged on by their peers. And that line, once crossed, is easy to go over again and again, until finally the goodwill of the owners and administrators is exhausted and there is a shake-up. And then the convulsion of people complaining that the popular member was banned begins. And we all have this arguement again.

And things calm down and get back to normal until the next clique forms. It's the natural course of things, it must have happened, what, three or four times since DU started?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

174. PLease READ the above post by NORTHZAX.

Clarity personified. Of course the ones who need it most
still won't get it. Oh, no, not me! Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah,
but ....... Anyway, thanks, North. You can lead a mule to water ...

[jpgray]

177. Thanks

That answers some of my questions, and I appreciate it.

[RevCheesehead]

184. Great post - thanks for sharing n/t

[Madrone]

185. Awesome.

:yourock:

[ScreamingMeemie]

160. My two cents on the situation is...We're all putting a little too much

emphasis on the problems in the Lounge RE: needing to facilitate a discussion on hurt feelings. Like it or lump it, it's an internet website. As my dearest friend has placed in her sigline, if you can't take the heat, turn down the thermostat. People are ALWAYS going to have hurt feelings. People are ALWAYS going to feel left out. There is not much you can do about it Skinner. Think back to the primaries when we mods were being accused of bias. No matter what we did, there were always going to be those who perpetuated a myth. I say, ignore it, remember what the Lounge is, and don't waste time and energy on discussions that will do naught to change anything.

Thanks.

[progmom]

161. thanks MrsGrumpy

I appreciate your perspective on this.

:hug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

166. You are ever so welcome!

What's with this weather? Did you see those clouds this morning? I want Spring!!! :bounce:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

167. We're having crap weather here too. gray and damp-I hate it!

x(

[ScreamingMeemie]

169. We better get a really long summer after this or else I'll...I'll...I'll..

be really angry. :bounce:

[progmom]

168. the clouds were crazy

very heavy and ominous.
i am not happy about this weather.
not happy at all.


however...
if it rains enough to keep my husband from playing softball, well, that would not be a bad thing. i have a ton of work to do tonight, and could use his help at home.
:)

[WI_DEM]

179. I think you hit it on the head very well.

[underpants]

162. Sorry-What did I miss?

Gone since Friday

[Shrek]

163. Here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3248244&mesg_id=3248244

Settle in, it may take a while.

[underpants]

165. Oh

thanks

[Shell Beau]

164. Good job! eom

[Bridget Burke]

170. I hope you enjoyed the weekend off.

Thanks for handling the Andy situation(s).

As far as Sniffa/princess--their banning was probably justified. However, banned DU'ers have earned their way back in before. I'd hope that Sniffa can do it--I even got used to his infernal LLL's. As for the other one--good riddance.

[redqueen]

173. After reading all this,

and musing over the events of the past several days, I've decided this place (the lounge) is one of the strangest places on the net. One of the best, yes... but still one of the strangest. And most wonderful.

I so love DU... thanks Skinner. :)

[patcox2]

180. After reading it, I sometimed think its pathetic.

Stupid behavior by some. But its so very hard to care, even a little. Hard to care about the supposed bad guys. They were bad, so what. Doesn't affect me in any real way. Hard to care what the administrators did about it. They banned some people, so what. Doesn't affect me in any real way. Very very hard to get so caught up in it that I would actually start talking about this as a "place" and anyone posting on it as a person I "know."

Its words on a screen. I come hoping to be amused or informed of something I never knew before. The rare real group conversation is nice, but more often its just some cyber-mutant "displaying" behavior that goes on.

So much fantasizing and dramatizing goes on. Its words on a screen, pen-pals but it travels faster.

I will save my emotional energy for the real people in my real life.

[hippiechick]

181. Spot on.

"I come hoping to be amused or informed of something I never knew before. The rare real group conversation is nice, but more often its just some cyber-mutant "displaying" behavior that goes on.
"

:applause: :applause:

[redqueen]

183. So if something doesn't affect you personally, you don't care?

IMO it's not just words on a screen. There are real people typing those words. Real people with real feelings. Sure, some might be loser trolls with no real life who go around pretending to be things they're not because their lives are so desperately empty and sad... but most are real people.

Your barb about cyber-mutant "displaying" is nasty. Sad that so many here like to complain about how mean and ugly 'they' are, while excusing that same behavior in themselves. Pat yourself on the back.

[patcox2]

186. The internet is to real social interaction

As masturbation is to sex. Its a pleasant enough diversion, unhealthy if it becomes an obsession.

I care about things that don't "happen to me." The tsunami, the war, the election.

But internet bulletin board cliques? "Mean people" who "Hurt People's Feelings" in "our place?" Oh no, Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh my! No, that all just makes me laugh.

[kick-ass-bob]

187. you forget that some people meet some other people based on this board.

So they do have the "real social interaction" with each other. And apparently, more than you realize.

[Mutley]

178. Thanks

I took the weekend off after the craziness of last week and it seems that things are a little better this week so far. Thanks Skinner and everyone else involved for DU.

[hunter]

182. I just bought myself a shiny new star...

Otherwise I might have spent the money at Fry's electronics, so you did good!