Philosophy Question: If It's illegal, and you know it's right, is it wrong

[DS1]

[mark414]

1. that's what THIS was supposed to be about

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3216588

[DS1]

4. EXACTLY!

We may have had bad words, or more accurately I may have had bad words towards you while you shrugged them off like a champ, but this is the heart of debate.
:D

[mark414]

6. ha

it's all good bro :thumbsup:

[MisterP]

12. heck, some DUers think Rachel Corrie was an arrogant monster

who got what was coming to her, so you're not alone in being verbally firebombed

[short bus president]

2. One of those dead white guys

said something about it being a moral duty to disobey an unjust law. Most people forget the corresponding moral duty to suffer the associated punishment, tho.

[Darranar]

8. There is no "corresponding moral duty" of the sort...

Punishment for violating an unjust law is always unjust, so why should violators subject themselves to it?

[petronius]

14. I think the duty is not so much

to suffer the punishment as it is to submit one's actions to the judgment of society. Breaking an unjust law is one thing, but there is an obligation to respect society's right to make law. If the law is wrong, we need to stand up and say so (even if we end up in court) rather than breaking the rule on the quiet and going our merry way...

[Darranar]

3. The sole legitimate purpose of law is to promote justice...

When portions of it fail to, they are illegitimate and can be violated as long as the violations are justified.

[DS1]

5. Even if you are executed for that belief?

[Darranar]

9. Executed for violating the law?

Or executed for holding the belief that violations of the law can be just?

Either way, I don't see how the threat of execution changes anything except the wisdom of violating the law, not the justification of it.

[DS1]

10. What if you did something like

sprinkling a handful of dirt over a body at night when nobody could see, when formal burying of that person was deemed unlawful by the powers that be?

/Philosphy 101

[antigone382]

16. Hey, stop talking about me!

And it was during a Zeus-ordained dust storm, Gods dammit!

:P

On edit: concerning your question, I'm a bit of a moral utilitarianist. A law is only worthwhile if it serves the greater good. Of course, the dicey part is actually trying to determine what is the greater good, and if we don't set some ground rules, there will be chaos. The only laws that are necessary are the ones that prevent human suffering--specifically what I call "concrete" suffering: that is, starvation, poverty, brutality, etc.

I could go on, but it's kinda boring and hard to explain.

Edited edit: I should also clarify: the law is only good when the suffering is not self-imposed. The government should not regulate people's decisions to smoke cigarettes or subject themselves to the risk of STD's through unsafe sex, for example. However, a good law can be made that defends people from insidious advertizing campaigns, and that educate them regarding safe sex.

I think I'm still muddying things up and not saying what I mean very well, but maybe you see the point.

[SOteric]

7. It's always a judgement call.

And in my judgement, it's probably Hedges' fault.

[Elidor]

11. Where the fuck is Socrates when you need him?

Didn't he cover this? Or am I thinking of Plato.

[Darranar]

13. I think you're thinking of the Crito...

A Platonic dialogue where Socrates's friend Crito offers to get him out of jail and save his life. Socrates argues against this by saying it would be a betrayal of the city of Athens to do so.

[vman13]

15. Can Somebody say "Henry David Thoreau?"

Whenever I'm come across this question I always think of the great Thoreau quote: "If a government imprisons unjustly, then let the place for a just man also be prison."

I believe just as Thoreau does that if you feel a law is unjust than you in fact have an obligation to your own moral capacities to disobey that law. At the same time, you have to be willing to except whatever punishment society may inflict upon you. Civil Disobedience requires that people have the strength of conviction to except the consequences of their actions. Gandhi, MLK; they all had what took; few people do.

[DS1]

17. Yes!

I can say Thoreau! I love his "Civil Disobedience" book.

There's a quote on page 84 I'll have to drag out when I get home.

[salin]

18. Nominating for best poll options

that I can remember seeing. Still rolling on the floor with tears.

[DS1]

19. I love that the first option has no votes

:toast: to DU

And I don't see your nomination

[salin]

20. How could I resist

for the poll options and all - done. ;-)

Next time I want to create a poll, can I ask for a consult?