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Freeper blames Dems, trial laywers and environmentalists for Gas $$$

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:36 AM
Original message
Freeper blames Dems, trial laywers and environmentalists for Gas $$$
:eyes:
Will they ever get a clue?

To: mysterio; oceanview
That's not why we haven't been building refineries. There's three big reasons why:
1. Environmental regulations make refinery construction prohibitively expensive in many areas.
2. Oil refining has not been a very profitable business until just the last 18 months, and oil companies want to be sure this profitability will continue before investing billions in new refineries.
3. From what I've read, oil companies are refusing to build new refineries until they can get legal relief from the assault by greedy trial lawyers over MTBE contamination of water supplies. This is about the only leverage oil companies have to get legislative relief from hordes of trial lawyers and government agencies suing them. (Granted, it was stupid for the oil companies not to replace their leaking fuel tanks at gas stations. I don't know why they let this thing happen.)
Refiners have been adding capacity to existing refineries through equipment upgrades, otherwise we would have gas lines around the block by now. If oil refiners can get some relief from MTBE litigation, then they will build some new refineries becaus it's clear that demand is holding up at these gasoline prices. As for building Mexico, that's probably not going to happen soon because Mexico isn't an open economy and Pemex has a monopoly on oil refining. The wealthy Mexicanos who control Pemex don't want competition from aggressive American companies.


41 posted on 06/17/2005 12:50:01 PM PDT by carl in alaska (Hey John Kerry...we don't do this just for "entertainment.")
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies >
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. The nuke plant builders should look at the election distribution maps
and study the prevailing winds and water tables -

then build the plants upwind and upstream from the reddest zones - not to mention right above the main water table of these "infrared" zones . . .
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think they're feeling really stupid now because they thought
voting for an oil president would mean cheap gas.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I'ma gonna jawbone with Opec and get them to open the spigots.*
Did I mention that I'm then going to use that oil to overfill the national reserves so my oil buddies can drive up prices to double their profits? Hope I didn't say that aloud.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Amazing, the freepers actually believed Bush when he said he'll
tell his pals at OPEC to turn on the spigot. He forgot to tell them how much a barrel this was going to cost them..
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. His third point may have some truth
if you reverse his slant from greedy trial lawyers trying to suck money from these poor little refinery companies and put the focus on the greedy corporations trying to manipulate the market to get even more freedom to rape and destroy the water supply of America for a little extra profit.

Interesting how these brain-dead bozos can believe that the oil companies are deliberately manipulating production to keep prices outrageously high, and yet think that's the fault of the group that would oppose such anti-free market practices if we were in power. The oil companies, to the degree they are manipulating production, are doing it because we have no leadership as a nation, and they can get away with it. You've got to be pretty damned brainwashed to see this as a positive thing, though.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
5. No they won't. They won't listen to reason.
Neither will I; I've seen those in power on both sides be paid political whores. And that alone makes the entire process not worth getting involved in. (well, only enough for me to speak my concerns about it.)
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El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. Dear freeper: It's the bush economy, STUPID.
The value of the U.S. dollar is plummeting due to massive bush's massive budget and trade deficits and tax give-aways to the rich. And we buy oil with our dwindling U.S. dollars, dumbass freeper, so oil costs more and more as the dollar goes down. Do the math, for once.

(Talking to the freeper here)

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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. Surprised he doesnt just cut to the chase...
...and include the jews on that list and then demand the immediate construction of camps for the jews, dems, trial laywers and environmentalists...
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. Where did he get this crap from?
And no, it's not the White House (a wholly owned subsidiary of Halliburton, Inc.) that's responsible for high gas prices, either.
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rustydog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
10. When I run into idiocy, I used to try to enlighten the wayward one
with facts. It doesn't help. so a heartfelt: "Blow me" is succinct and is something they understand completely.

I don't need to win arguements with Freepers, I need to get my candidate reelected by educating the non freepers, you know, intelligent people.
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. This is fairly standard thinking for the conservative mindset.
I know farmers who still blame Jimmy Carter's embargo for low prices on corn and soybeans. They paint themselves as the outsiders, as the victimized ones. Then from that point the ignorant hatred ensues.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. Conservo takes half truths and uses them to his advantage
but they are indeed price fixiing. Here's a two part series by the LA Times...read one way, it supports his contentions but the truth is far from what he states.

Here's a snip from the middle of part 1:

My view for the industry was: Why in the world would you fight clean fuels? That's what the consumer wants," O'Malley, now the chairman of Connecticut refiner Premcor Inc., said in an interview. Make no mistake about it, the more stringent you make specifications, those become barriers to entry…. Strong companies would have an advantage."

The state's move to strict new fuel formulas helped put 10 of 31 refineries out of business, cutting oil-refining capacity by 20%, according to the state Energy Commission.

The most conspicuous of the casualties was a small refinery in Santa Fe Springs known as Powerine. It closed in 1995 amid heavy losses, but less than a year later its owners wanted a reprieve from the new rules so they could jump back into the market or sell the plant.

The reemergence of Powerine, which could make a significant amount of gasoline despite its small size, was a threat to California's delicate market balance. In a February 1996 internal e-mail, a Mobil executive opined that if Powerine resumed production an expected 10-cent-a-gallon premium could shrink by as much as 2 or 3 cents.

"Needless to say, we would all like to see Powerine stay down. Full-court press is warranted in this case," the Mobil manager wrote in the message, which came to light through a lawsuit and subsequent U.S. Senate hearing. If the refinery were to reopen, Mobil could purchase and resell the output to protect prices, he added, noting that the company had tried that the year before and it "was a major reason" gasoline prices jumped 2 to 4 cents for several months.

Exxon Mobil executive James S. Carter told the Senate panel in 2002 that "we were protecting our investment."

Still in mothballs, Powerine was sold in 1997 to an investment trust run by televangelist Pat Robertson, who planned to spend $130 million to modernize and reopen the plant.

Neighborhood groups that remembered Powerine's environmental lapses had no interest in seeing the plant revived. Robertson accused unnamed oil companies of interfering with his efforts to raise funds for the project. He offered no proof at the time, and he declined requests for an interview.

The restart effort died shortly after a judge blocked construction at the behest of community groups that had accused local officials of insufficient environmental vetting.

Years later, California politicians and consumer activists accused Shell Oil of questionable motives after it announced plans to close its Bakersfield refinery in late 2004 without putting the property up for sale. Shell argued that the refinery's profits were too puny and the plant was too old, inefficient and small to attract serious buyers.

Shell's timing was curious because California refineries were earning record profits.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-calgas18jun18,0,7589520.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Here's part II:
Zones of Contention in Gasoline Pricing
# Refiners charge each dealer a different rate for the same fuel. They say it's fair, but critics contend the practice helps them boost profits and suppress competition.

econd in a Series

On a recent Wednesday, 72-year-old veterinarian Charles Hendricks filled up his Mercury Grand Marquis at a Chevron in west Anaheim. On the other end of town, 22-year-old sandwich store manager Ryan Ketchum gassed up his Nissan Sentra at a Chevron in Anaheim Hills.




Both men bought regular gasoline. Both pumped the gas themselves. But there was one important difference: Hendricks paid $2.399 a gallon, whereas Ketchum paid $2.539 — 14 cents more a gallon for the same Chevron gas.

Such price variations may seem odd, but they are not unique to Anaheim. On any given day, in any major U.S. city, a single brand of gasoline will sell for a wide range of prices even when the cost to make and deliver the fuel is the same.

The primary culprit is zone pricing, a secret and pervasive oil company strategy to boost profits by charging dealers different amounts for fuel based on traffic volume, station amenities, nearby household incomes, the strength of competitors and other factors.

It's a controversial strategy, but the courts have thus far deemed it legal, and the Federal Trade Commission recently said the effect on consumers was ambiguous because some customers got hurt by higher prices while others benefited from lower ones.

To be sure, other industries vary prices by area too. Supermarkets, for instance, price the same brand of bread or cheese differently in different neighborhoods. But gasoline price patterns provoke a response that bread can't match, partly because other commodities don't fluctuate as wildly as gasoline does and their prices aren't posted by the side of the road.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-calprice19jun19,1,6659437.story?coll=la-home-headlines
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. That's a riot
How do you manage to keep reading that place?

It raises the question, why the stricter eco-laws in Europe have caused the construction of many new refineries, while the lax laws in the US kept the rustbuckets running - all too often to their bitter end. By their logic, there should be no refineries in Europe.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I am a glutton for punishment
and I am constantly amazed at the stupidity on display there.
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tjwmason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. What about Clinton's penis?
Surely that has some hand in the rising cost.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. So Republicans control the courts, the senate and the
house (and have controlled the senate and house for a few years now) but everything is still the fault of Demcrats?

Wow! Talk about not taking responsibility!
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. Dear Freeper, Then You Wouldn't Mind Having A Refinery In Your Backyard
n'est pas?

All that it takes to deflate any Freeper argument is to make them take a personal stake in their argument. Like so,

Freeper: "I support the troops. I support the war".

Sane Person: "Then you should enlist."

Freeper: Stutter...Stammer..

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SOteric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. Heh. Whatta
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. dem blames freepers on incest, drug abuse and shallow gene pools
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