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populistmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-02-03 08:35 PM
Original message
How do you infiltrate and fight the man?
Edited on Sun Nov-02-03 08:36 PM by populistmom
I am a Sunday school teacher. Yes, I admit it. A few people know the truth here, but what do I do? I teach middle school age kids biweekly and when I do it, I strongly enforce the elements of Christianity where Christ had compassion for those in need. I remind them that Christ was about peace. That Christ drove the money-grabbers and profiteers from the temples. Today was extremely cool. We read a story in the Old Testament and it talked about how Saul was basically a pretty whacked dude and music soothed him and made him feel better. So we did an activity about music and different genres of music. I brought in a little BB King, some Charlie Parker, a little Van Halen, The Clash, and more. They had to guess the genre and talked about how the music made them feel. I hope I don't get fired (I doubt it, it's a pretty progressive, or at least moderate, Methodist church) because today I felt like I actually did something.
Anyway, sometimes I get pretty down about society and feel like I can't do much because of how my life is, but sometimes I have days that give me hope. Today was one of those days.

Fight the power, baby!!!
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david_vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-02-03 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. You're doing it!
"As the twig is bent, so grows the tree." Is that how that saying goes?
In my book, Jesus was a radical freak. Being a real Christian is far too difficult for most people because it demands sacrifice. If you can just get them to question the motives of those who preach "Christianity" while wearing eight hundred dollar suits and driving Cadillacs, then you're doing a superb job of inculcating independent thinking and, not coincidentally, true Christian values. Kudos to you!
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populistmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Thanks!
I second all you just said. I think I've met more atheists and agnostics that follow true priciples of Christ, than those who proudly proclaim their "superior Christian selves" frequently. :thumbsup:
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-02-03 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. aha! So it's the METHODISTS who plan world domination!

I had my suspicions, but had just chalked it up to tinfoil hat conspiracy theories and rising anti-Methodist sentiment but I guess now we know...
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populistmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Wa Ha ha!
I've even converted an IRish Catholic. I was even a Catholic for awhile, but I felt like a hippocrite because I disagreed with so much of it. I can be an okay Methodist, but an extremely lousy Catholic. THen again, what exactly do you have to do to be a "good" Catholic other than be a celebate male?
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Don_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-02-03 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. I Don't Know About Fighting The "Man"
As much as I enjoy wrestling with women from time to time as seen on "M*A*S*H" and "Home Improvement" from time-to-time.

Life in general and the healthy enjoyment thereof is a worthy goal to attain as long as you don't confuse "ethics" with "smiting" and "judgement."

I judge my bartender to be ethical because we share the same values and I'm going to "smite" him with a good tip.
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populistmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Not sure I follow all of what you're saying
I don't go for the whole judgement thing myself and I enjoy being wrestled with so hey, life's fine.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-02-03 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Watch when you are reading St Paul's letters



At the time of the Apostles (and I include St Paul in this group) you did NOT have want we today would call a Post Office. Letters were sent by private people with travelers going to the city the letter was to go to. This restricted who could take any letters.

Second, what we call "Freedom of Movement" did not exist. Other than the elites, People had to have permission to move around (and even the elites could be questioned, for example No Senator could travel to Egypt. The Emperors were worried a Senator could raise an Army with the Wealth of Egypt AND cut off the Grain supply to Rome, both which could topple any Emperor). Even with permission one had to have a reason (for Example Paul ended up in Rome based on an Appeal of a criminal charge. His appeal was that he was a Roman Citizen, thus he had to go to Rome to have his appeal heard).

Third, any note going into any city of the Empire was read by a "Censor". Now morality was the reason given that he read everything coming into the city, but real reason was to contain (and discover) anyone trying to overthrow Rome. Along with the above restrictions (once anyone had the right to move between two cities that person did not want to risk losing that right by carrying the wrong type of letters, and always turned over any such letters to the Censor to make sure everything was all right).

All o f the above Paul knew of (as did the Church Fathers who cited these letters). Thus some of what Paul says is NOT to his fellow Christians but to these Censors. For example the Early Christians used what is known as the Catholic version of the Old Testament (Including 1st and 2nd Maccabees, removed by Martin Luther in his Protestant Bible). The Maccabees can NOT be reconciled with St. Paul’s statement as to everyone having to submit to those “placed by God” over them. The Maccabees is a story of the full scale revolt against the Greek Overlords of the Judea. The early Christians kept the Books of the Maccabees AND Paul’s writing. Why? In my opinion, the early Christians did not accept St. Paul’s statement as to submitting to their Overlords because Christ made no such claim and Jewish old testament tradition opposed such a claim. St. Paul’s statement had to be view (and I view it as such) a statement to be read by the local Censor to show Christians were NOT a threat to Rome. That was its sole purpose for opposing oppressive overloads was a doctrine of the old Testament that Christ did not oppose.

My point here is to read St. Paul carefully. St. Paul’s word is NOT the word of God (unlike Christ who we Christian believe was giving us the word of God). People get confuse for St. Paul’s statements written for the censors seems to be easy to grasp (and were intended for that purpose) unlike some of St. Paul’s more complex concepts as to Christ’s life. The early Church did not accept all of St. Paul’s statements as being the Word of God and neither should we.

Now you may ask why did Martin Luther take out The Maccabees from his Christian Bible? While Martin Luther was an Anti-Semite, he had studied the bible and knew that the Jews had the Maccabees from their Bible after the Jewish revolts of 72 and 130 AD (But at the same time kept Chanukah as a holidays, Chanukah is explained in the Books of the Maccabees). The first question is why were these books removed by the Jews about 200 AD? The answer is to please the Romans and show that they (the Jews) would not revolt again against Roman Rule. The Christians did not removed the same books for if the Romans asked them, the Early Christians could point out they did not participate in either of the Jewish Revolts AND pull out St. Paul’s submission line (which the Christian father’s then told their flocks to ignore for did not Christ tell his Apostles to carry swords? And to read the Maccabees to see when and how to revolt against tyrants, and that included knowing not to revolt just to revolt but to revolt with a chance of winning).

Thus the books were removed by the Jews of 200 AD to show submission to Roman Rule. The Christians could pull out St. Paul for th e same thing (And this the Christians could keep the Books in their Bible). Please note while I am referring to a “Jewish Bible” in the modern Sense i.e. a hard bound book, that type of “book” had only been invented about the time of Christ. Thus people were still using scrolls and calling them “Books” in addition to what we would today call a book. Each Scroll would have just one of the books of th e Bible. Thus while the “Jewish Bible” of 200 AD (a hardback book to be carried around by people to be read like a modern book) no longer contained the Maccabees, the Maccabees could still survive as a Scroll in a Jewish synagogue for many centuries afterwards.

As to why did Martin Luther remove the Maccabees? In my opinion, for the mirror reason the jews did it in 200 AD. After Luther broke with Rome he allied himself with the North German Princes. As Lutherism spread it was embraced by the local north German Peasants, but than you had a famine and as a result a peasant Revolt occurred (supporting Luther but opposed by the Princes). Martin Luther than issued a declarations against such revolts based on St Paul’s submission statement and the Princes crushed the Revolt. Thus Martin Luther removed the Maccabees for the Maccabees had done what the Peasants had tried to do. By that time Luther and the Princes did not WANT a peasant revolt nor any scripture that supported such a revolt, thus the Maccabees were removed.

My point here is to show you that you can NOT take anything out of the bible out of the whole text it was written in. To read St. Paul’s Submission statement and ignore the rest of his letter is to take that statement out of context. Further it is wrong to accept it on its face given its conflict with other parts of the Bible. It is correct that you should submit to authority over you provided it is lawful and legitimate (and to accept a tyrant when you can not overthrow him) but illegitimate and tyrannical rulers must be opposed and do not use St Paul’s statement to indicate otherwise.

As I said St Paul was writing on two different plans (his fellow Christians and the Roman Censors) when he wrote his letters, remember that when you read his letters.

For information on Chanukah
http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm

Catholic Version of the bible (including Maccabees):
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/

For a list of difference between Catholic, Jewish and Protestant bibles see:
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm





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populistmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Uh dude
Thanks for the tips. I'll watch out for that. I don't get too into any kind of serious dogmatic stuff anyway. I prefer more relaxed forms of interpretations. I mean, if I took it literally, I should have been stoned a long time ago for premarital sex, wearing pants, and eating shellfish.
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