GD has turned into a cesspool tonight.

[Nlighten1]

I have am completely sickened by the "I hope more troops get killed" and it's subsequent defender thread. As a former soldier and a citizen with friends and family in Iraq I can't find words for how appalled I am.

[Birthmark]

1. I couldn't agree more.

It's sickening.

[LARED]

2. I agree n/t

[Nashyra]

3. No reason for that particular comment

Ever. May any higher power that anyone might believe in Bless the families and the soldiers in harms way.

[Cleita]

4. Yes, it is disgusting.

I'm sorry some people are so hurtful.

[Droopy]

5. Do like me

I'm on a self-imposed exile from GD. I only post in the lounge and I rarely read any of the other forums.

[leanings]

6. Right there with you.

I'm a former 11B with buddies over there. The only thing that I can say about it is that they don't know of what they speak. Just childish little people who don't understand what it means to soldier, or to die. I guess it's a good thing that we're a comfortable enough country to produce people that are that insulated.

[Nlighten1]

10. I was 11B myself.

2 years at Ft. Knox and 3 years in Germany.

[Maple]

7. GD is at least discussing

a question of individual morality and responsibility.

The lounge is busy sending 'notes' about 'pooping in showers'

Which one is more adult?

Time to grow up.

[Nlighten1]

11. That thread wasn't about individual morality

It was about people acting like total morons wishing that our soldiers get killed.

[mike_c]

33. as the poster of one of those threads in GD...

...I suggest you either go and reread my post or stop watching the indoctrination program that's apparently running in your colon. In the first place, I'm no moron. Secondly, I did not say that I wished to see "our soldiers" killed. If you're going to distort and misrepresent my words in other threads, at least try to invent something more creative than the "liberals must hate America" crowd spews.

[DrGonzoLives]

32. Yes, it's far better

to simply stare at the TV and all the bad news and war and death and get NO DISTRACTION FROM IT WHATSOEVER. ANYONE who does so is a bad, immature person. How dare people want to keep their sanity?

Note: if you don't like the lounge, stay out. It's really simple.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

66. Flame wars in the lounge?

kewl!

NOTE: Wishing anyone dead is wrong. Always. There are other ways to get Bush out of office.

[Zuni]

56. A question of morality?

no just sounds like some inane ranting. At least on the lounge, we can lighten up a little bit and act like human beings.

[HEyHEY]

8. Yeah I thought that was a bit strong myself

[Deja Q]

9. I'll wish for peace around the world and then damn God for creating us...

...in His own image.

God must've been a warmonger then. :shrug:

That's half-sarcasm. God exists but heathens said He created us in His image. He created everything and not everything looks or acts like humankind. Fortunately.

[Kahuna]

12. There are some very demented people on both..

sides of the aisle. I hope that those on DU saying that are just disruptors trying to make us look bad. I truly hope that real Dems and Libs would never sink so low as to wish harm to our troops.

[Nlighten1]

17. Exactly.

I can't help but think they are some sort of operative here trying to disrupt DU.

[Wellong]

27. Unfortunatly

there are far more than a handful of democrats and those on the left who are wishing for the death of our troops, and even the outright defeat and destruction of the United States.

Hopefully their numbers shrink.

[ithacan]

13. and Iraqi troops???

they're human beings too, with moms and dads and sisters and brothers and children.

[matcom]

14. 19 Kilo here and i am not sure i share your disgust

am talking with former buddies now and i think your blanket condemnation for the situation is simplistic at best.

have my mind open right now and can see both sides.

more later.

FLame away if you must (i know you can't help it)

[Nlighten1]

18. I'm not about flaming.

I'm about having a rational discussion.

[matcom]

23. i dont' think i can right now

have demonds to fight and don't think i can be too rational. i will tell you that while the opinions expressed in GD may not have been well worded, that doesn't make them invalid.

and my buddies are over there too

i'll cry myself to sleep tonight.... for oh so many reasons

[mike_c]

35. what part of my post was "irrational?"

???

[hussar]

20. Right there with you buddy

Ex Brit soldier with 2 tours of combat duty to my credit, care to comment?

[jonnyblitz]

21. desert storm vet here who agrees with you...

i think the disgust is knee jerk. I think the people who are disgusted are making false attributions to the people they are vilifying..

[Tinoire]

45. 98G here and totally behind my fellow Liberals and Progressives

who see the immorality and obscenity of this war. I am totally ashamed, appalled that some "patriots" here think that US soldiers in a war zone have some sort of a God-given "right to be safe" and that the Iraqis should passively accept this illegal, immoral war, occupation, destruction and plunder of their resources.

Nobody here has EVER cheered the death or wounding of our soldiers. People have realistically faced the fact that THAT is the nature of combat. People get shot at. People kill. People get killed.

Anyone thinking that the Iraqis should just passively accept this and fax letters of disagreement strongly urging Bremer to leave is living in lala land.

I want peace. I want justice. I want the US OUT OF IRAQ. If it takes 10,000 US deaths before the US pulls out, that is the fault of Bush, all the politicans, corporate reptiles and war-cheering "patriots" who enabled this war- it is not the fault of the Iraqis who are exercising their God-given right to resist and throw out a thieving invader.

God protect our troops. God protect all my friends and the young soldiers we know and trained but, damn it, God protect the Iraqis too.

It was a mistake to go in. It is a mistake to stay in.

This is an utter catastrophe!

[bleedingheart]

15. I think those threads should be pulled, it is really disgusting!

beyond disgusting.

My cousin's husband is over there and my sister in law is scheduled to leave in January.

I want them all to come home safe or not go at all.

[Stone Cold]

24. totally agreed, man.

Anyone who wishes death upon another person is just awful in my book. As much as I hate this war and the whole idea of war, I wish the troops to come back alive and that not one more dies.

[Stone Cold]

16. Man....some of us need a sense of humor.

Here in the lounge, we're having a little fun. It's ok not to be stiff and serious all the time.

[Paragon]

19. I've never supported Bush's war for one second...

...but I asked for the threads to be locked. Pretty lame attempt at flamebait.

[Nlighten1]

25. I'm the last person to support Bush's war.

But I am also the last to wish anyone on either side of this battle to be harmed or to lose their life for political gain.

I got called up for Bush 41's war and I went. I wasn't happy at all about it and I went kicking and screaming, but I went. I can't imagine the mind of someone who could think such a thing as to wish our troops death.

[Gman]

22. There are some very immature kids here

who don't really realize what's going on. Not defending them, though. Just understand there can be a lot of immaturity here sometimes.

[Wellong]

28. Kids?

The thread hoping for the death of our troops was started by a 58 year old "broad".

Her word, not mine.

[KoKo]

42. A 58 year old "Broad?" Too cute for a retort!

Really! :nuke:

[liberalmuse]

26. Try reading her other posts, okay?

She's been a longtime poster here at DU. She's written some excellent, insightful, inspiring posts, so I think she's allowed one dud. She was obviously making a point out of frustration. How about putting away the cross and nails?

[dweller]

39. I don't see it as a dud

as much as i see these hammers and nails out for the innocent, and not, again as they should be out
for the Caesar by the Pilates...

too much hand-washing here.

dp

[NightTrain]

29. Say what?!

Somebody in GD stated, "I hope more troops get killed," and others are defending it? :wtf: is wrong with those people?

A couple of days ago, Connecticut's lost its sixth soldier in Iraq. The kid was less than a week from his 21st birthday. To honor that young man's memory, the governor has ordered all state flags flown at half-mast, and rightfully so.

I can only assume that those who've participated in that GD thread have no friends of relatives stationed in Iraq. Otherwise, they wouldn't be so goddamned cavalier with those soldiers' lives.

But thanks for reminding me of why I stopped going to GD some time back....

[matcom]

30. i have friends there

and while i don't agree with the wording of the post, i understand the sentiment based on its merits

oh, BTW, i am a Veteran too

yes, i have conflicting demonds right now

thank you for your understanding

[imhotep]

31. I am a veteran

and I don't get disgusted when people have a different opinion than me. Although I do get disgusted at moralists who judge others for those different opinions.

[liberalmuse]

34. Gentle intelligence rules!

I'm re-evaluating my jumping on a poster for joking about wearing fur and eating meat the other day. Self-righteous reactionarism is an ugly, ugly thing. Thanks for your post, because it is a beautiful site among this mass of festering judgement. Honestly, I've learned tonight that it's best to evaluate a situation and give the poster the benefit of a doubt (had a bad day, depressed, not feeling good) here on DU before jumping down their throat.

[Nlighten1]

37. it isn't about a "difference of opinion"

these are comments beyond the pale of decency. If you say "I like apples" and I say "I like oranges" we have differing opinions. When you say "I hope more troops get killed"...well...that doesn't need an explaination does it?

[DrWeird]

40. Circle the correct answer

Support Iraqi Resistance:Hoping American Troops Get Killed

as

Supporting US Troops: ?

A. Hoping Iraqi Troops Get Killed
B. Hoping a bunch of babies get killed
C. Hoping a bunch of muslims get killed
D. All of the above.

[DrWeird]

36. Pretend I'm french.

I hope every last one of those babykillers get their brains blown out.

Is that better?

[NashVegas]

38. Yes, We're SO Much Better Here in the Lounge with Our Pee Polls

*pats back*

[KoKo]

41. I haven't been there tonight, but, aren't you over-reacting? I'm in GD

alot and have missed these "anti-troops" posts that you and Pitt (on his post today or yesterday) are talking about. I just don't see it here.

I'm one of the BIG Ant-Iraq Invasion posters on DU, and so I look for Iraq posts. I protested to keep our troops out of Iraq, so why would I trash them here. I don't know who you are talking about unless it's some kids who are just being feisty or troll/freeps having fun with us.

I just haven't seen it. If you have links, I will be glad to read them.

Clarification: I have been out and so wasn't in GD tonigh, so maybe some flame war broke out...but gotta believe it's so rare that's it's one of the above that I mentioned. Hardly the usual for GD to have the kind of posters you are talking about. :-(

[Tinoire]

43. Do you have a reference for that? Only a disruptor would have posted

such a thing. I have a hard time believing that that is even a direct quote and would appreciate the reference.

[Cleita]

44. The thread was locked. Here's the link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=648187

[maggrwaggr]

46. thanks. I was curious since I was just at GD and didn't see anything

like this.

My dad was an army officer and my brother in law was a green beret medic in vietnam.

I think it's disgusting when anyone criticizes our troops or blames them for the things that are going on over there.

they shouldn't be there in the first place and I get so mad whenever one of them is killed that .... well shit I want to go kill somebody. Somebody who's not in Iraq, you know?

So I'm pretty mad all the time.

[Tinoire]

47. Interesting post

I'm a 20 year retired soldier. The thread broke my heart as did the intitial post but I understand the angst in that post.

One poster got it right... The Cassandra Complex- the rage from months of seething "I told you so" with every body bag secretly flown home, every coffin that's lowered into that cold ground.

For over a year we've been screaming NO WAR! NO death and destruction and now that it's here, now that it's the blood of our brothers and sisters being shed over there, middle America is beginning to wake up. It is (*& unfortunate that it takes the death of US soldiers for middle America to suddenly care about peace and justice- but no, middle-America doesn't even care about peace and justice- it only cares about the blood of its own.

It's time to blame middle-America for being so cement-headed that that's what it will take before the US pulls out kicking and screaming.

I am not angry at Starpass for that post; I am angry, seething angry, at middle America for supporting and tolerating this war.

On edit: Thank you for the link. It's not what I thought it was when I read this thread but it's horrifying it its angst. This entire situation is horrifying...

[Nlighten1]

48. Great post

I'm not mad at Starpass either. I know she has been here and contributing for some time. I purposely left out the names of the involved because I didn't want to get into a personal pissing match with them.

Let's hope that these people who wish our soldiers, fathers, sons, daughters, and mothers in harms way in Iraq will cool their temperment.

[Tinoire]

62. I didn't think you were

I understand your sentiment exactly!

When I think of the people over there, all the good men and women, I want to scream and explode! First world militaries are often mis-used for aggressive purposes cloaked under all sorts of excuses but the people who sign up don't sign up for that. This war is absolutely vile!

I was trying to explain to a fellow DUer the other day that the soldiers had no real choice but to go when ordered- that he couldn't just expect them all to think like him and have gone AWOL- especially at the beginning when most people thought this was a "just" war and would be another video game war like Iraq I. This situation is so yuck, so complicated, so maddening in its horror. I can't even imagine what I would have done if it had happened when I was in!

I hope all your friends and family stay safe and that we get them all home soon! We need a miracle!

[trigz]

49. Noone can possibly hope for people to get killed, BUT:

Let's face it, the US have no business being there at all, a bit like Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Panama or all the other places invaded by the US for the last 70 years.

Anyhow I rarely see any public concern being taken across the pond for the thousands of victims of the bombing campaigns and wars of ie. Iraq or Afghanistan. I am not of the opinion that the life of a civilian Iraqi is worth less than the life of the American soldier which shoots him in the head or bombs his house. Consequently, ending American imperialist aggression and invasions of countries where they have no business whatsoever would spare the lives also of your soldiers. You know.

[Guaranteed]

52. Doesn't matter.

All of the killing is wrong.
Certainly Bush is responsible for this, since he made the decision to invade. But- I don't see why that means the soldiers themselves must die for his decision.

[trigz]

54. That's more or less what I said

...

:)

[Karenina]

55. It's called "willful ignorance."

I read those threads and did not come away with the feeling of people "wishing" American troops dead. I DID get the impression that many of the outraged were unable to nuance and as a result boiled down expressions of grief and frustration to that b/w, "wit or agin us" paradigm. The kneejerk responses are exhibit A for an inability to think critically. Fact is, the overwhelming majority of Americans have NEVER met an Iragi, nor would they know one if they saw one. The idea of American lives (particularly white ones) being "worth" more than others is ingrained. The premises that American soldiers are being ill-used by a corporate monster, are indeed behaving VERY BADLY, and that each person is responsible for his or her own actions seemingly cannot all be held simultaneously. As far as I'm concerned, Americans need to realize that everything they know and love is being FUCKED UP BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION. The HORRIFYING TRUTH is only large losses of life among "their own" will get their attention. Corporate contorl of the media precludes most from even having a clue about the hell on earth Iraq has become.

[bicentennial_baby]

57. Really?

"I read those threads and did not come away with the feeling of people "wishing" American troops dead"

Even the the thread titled "I hope the bloodshed continues" ?

[Guaranteed]

58. Hmmm.

Well, maybe you were looking so deep into the post that you saw something I didn't. You know us morans never done analyzed stuff good.
You said, "I read those threads and did not come away with the feeling of people "wishing" American troops dead."

Well, the title of the first post was "I Hope the Bloodshed in Iraq Continues." Does it get any more clear than that? Or, is that too big picture, or "simple?" Should I analyze it more?

You then said, "The HORRIFYING TRUTH is only large losses of life among "their own" will get their attention." Am I not to interpret that you hope for this enlightenment?

[Karenina]

64. During my time on DU

I've read many Starpass posts and am familiar with her deep passion, activism and the devastation she has experienced. I can CERTAINLY understand the imflammatory nature of her title and why so many are unable to see beyond it.

What I read was her depersonalized, objective assessment of a horrible situation. She was on the front lines screaming her head off to prevent Americans being led like lambs to the slaughter. Her point that the death and destruction IS happening, and that those who have fallen are the ones who will ultimately save America is well taken, IMHO.

This reads very much to me like the Dean flap. There is a tendency to react emotionally and start screaming in outrage before asking for clarification or attempting to put a comment into perspective. As such I shall do my best to be as clear as possible.

I do not understand why you refer to yourself as a "moran." What I am suggesting is taking a moment to figure out WHERE someone is coming from. NO, you should NOT "interpret" anything and I appreciate the question. I am beyond "hoping" for anything in this clusterfuck. It is completely out of my personal control. That said, I am AWARE that casualty numbers that can no longer be fudged, obfuscated or kept from view WILL wake Americans up. It's a fact I experienced during the Viet Nam war.

Currently the American people are being LIED to about deaths, injuries, their extent, what exactly the troops are doing there... the TROOPS themselves are being horrifically abused and fucked up the ass right, left and center, benefits cut, health care cut, inadequate food, water, supplies, cut off from communication with loved ones, (shall I continue?) while being shot at and poisoned on all levels in a hostile, polluted beyond belief environment. THIS IS GOING ON NOW and has the public-at-large taken notice? The FACT is they will only notice when the PICTURES HIT THEIR TV SCREENS.

THAT is the BIG PICTURE.

[jonnyblitz]

65. I agree

"The HORRIFYING TRUTH is only large losses of life among "their own" will get their attention." that is the gist I got from the initial controversial post that started all this discussion. THAT comment doesn't translate to me "supporting the death of our troops". To me it just points out a possible very sad reality. But the knee jerk responders won't see that, they will just worry about what Andrew Sullivan or other freepers will think and suffer their cognitive dissonance...

[Skittles]

50. THAT IS SICKENING

WAS THIS PERSON BANNED???? I AM RABIDLY AGAINST THE WAR AND NO F***ING WAY SHOULD WE BE THERE BUT TO WISH FOR MORE CASUALTIES IS JUST UNBELIEVABLY SICKENING.

[bicentennial_baby]

51. No

they were not banned. I share your disgust.

[Guaranteed]

53. I agree.

I'm not entirely sure that this person should be banned, but I do know that we need to make sure that this is not an accepted view of the party. However one may do that, whether through banning or through brutal dissent is a matter of opinion, I suppose.

[Dogmudgeon]

59. Everybody needs to ...

... work diligently to not let their gut reactions get the better of them. Passion is a Good Thing, but Reason should be "in the driver's seat."

It sounds all so easy when I type it in, but I know it's a very difficult undertaking. But we have to do what we can, because things are probably going to get much worse before they get better. Team Bush is quickly consolidating its control on America, and the restoration of our Democracy will be long, difficult, and agonizing for many people.

Our most effective action and activism will be accomplished by thorough and clear-headed research, education, planning, and execution. It's the only thing that will give us any chance of prevailing.

From now until this coming June, Bush will be able to dictate events. We will be caught up in the necessary, if painful, process of finding the candidate we will back to restore the White House (and America) to Democracy. So it's going to be a dog-bite of a time to hunker down and keep fighting. But we have to do it.

And the best "defense" against a schadenfreude that wishes death on our own? Make sure we know what our soldiers, sailors and aviators are going through -- and make sure that every American who is serving as one of Mr. Bush's personal indentures understands the perversion of military honor being perpetrated by Team Bush.

This thing is going to hurt a lot more. We have to be ready for it right now.

--bkl

[Guaranteed]

63. Wise words.

There are no shortcuts through wishing ill-will on our own. This is going to take nothing but hard work.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

60. Completely agree

Blaming the soldiers just makes it worse. I guess it allows middle class liberals to feel superior since they would never get their own hands dirty.

Boycotting gasoline would do far more than long speeches about why you don't support the troops.

[Guaranteed]

61. There are a lot of angry people on this board.

I'm one of them. I understand this "Cassandra Complex" entirely. I feel like going to everyone that called me unAmerican before the war and saying "FUCK!! you."
However, while anger is necessary, and useful, it needs to be controlled. We can not become animals, and we can not lose sight of the big picture, which is the WELL BEING OF OUR COUNTRY, and the WORLD. Now, I understand the argument that in order for "middle America" people to understand that we shouldn't be invading other countries unprovoked, for selfish reasons, there may need to be a large amount of American deaths. I also understand that a very big-picture perspective on the concept of "justice" may also lead to the conclusion that Americans should be killed until we pull out of Iraq.

My responses, from my conscience, to both arguments are based on the concept of "integrity." The first argument for the soldiers dying is a consequential, utilitarian argument, stating that in order to prevent more deaths in the future, there must be deaths now. It's the "tough-love" argument. The problem with this argument is the very same concept one might use to argue against going to war in the first place- that you can not go ahead and take an immoral action, or support an immoral action, that will lead directly to a bad consequence in supposed prevention of a future similar but worse, and as of yet, inactual bad consequence. This is called "compromising your integrity." When one does this, one has, in effect, been coerced into taking responsibility for these horrible actions, and while they may not be "as bad" as the actions that have SUPPOSEDLY been prevented, they are NO LESS the FULL responsibility of that person or those people who took those actions. This response relates directly to the fact that those who argued against this war based on the possible deaths of Americans, are now HOPING FOR THE DEATHS OF AMERICANS. How can one hope to prevent the deaths of Americans, by hoping for the deaths of Americans? And, further, how is one now any better than George Bush, when one now shows the same disregard for life that he does?

And while I understand this response could be used to argue against intervening in, say, genocide, it is nonetheless valid in that it seems that all wars and killings are supposedly based on the idea that "if I don't, something worse will happen." It is in this manner that one becomes the evildoer. I'm sure Hitler justified his actions in the very same way. I firmly believe that if people stopped justifying their actions with this "ends justifies the means" philosophy, murder would be reduced in the world by 75% (don't ask for "statistics," sorry. It's just what I see in people's psychology).

The second argument is that it is simply "justice" or "justified" to shoot American soldiers, because they invaded Iraq. The problem with this argument is, again, the matter of "integrity." These men and women, who are our sons and daughters, by the way, and very young, have put their faith in George Bush. I can not begin to explain why they have done this, but, for some reason, they have. Most of them truly believe, from what George Bush has told them, that they are protecting their country, and also "liberating" the Iraqis. The only decision they have made, on an individual basis, in this matter is to put their faith in their country and their president. Past this, they do not think about, and they do not decide on anything.
And that is why George Bush must take responsibility for his decision. It was his order they followed in invading Iraq. Yet, it's their lives that are being lost in what some would call "justice." Yes, they were those soldiers' choices, a matter of their integrity, to make the pledges that they did, to get on the planes going to Kuwait that they did, and to pull the triggers that they did. But, all of those decisions were made with their integrity lodged firmly, with faith, in the integrity of our wretched President, George W. Bush. Is it "justice" that they are killed simply for putting their trust in him, and for carrying out the decisions that he made? Shouldn't all soldiers have faith in the virtue of the leader of the country they are defending? Isn't that faith a part of their integrity, their duty, as soldiers?

Yes, we are all angry. But, instead of compromising our principles and ourselves, and becoming as heinous as the Bush administration, let us control ourselves and focus our anger AT them, where it belongs.