Nice guy who women do like speaks up -- why I'm voluntarily single.

[skids]

(with apologies for neglecting the LBG community, but I'm an insensitive hetero, so what would I know?)

Why listen to me? I'm a reasonably attractive guy who could go out and get a girlfriend pretty easily. I've had several relationships in the past which ended for the most part on good terms. I have the same needs as any hetero guy, but I've been voluntarily single/abstinant for about five years now and it really isn't that bad.

First let's get two things out of the way.

Women do like nice guys. I know this first hand.

Men do like plain women. I know this first hand.

These are just excuses men and women use for their inability to find a satisfying relationship.

Could a lot of women use a crash course in being a good judge of character? Sure. But not all of them.

Could a lot of men use a crash course in appreciation of average beauty? Sure. But not all of them.

The more important question, which if you stay single, you never get to, Is why do a lot of relationships not last very long, and why are so many of them for the most part an excercise in misery.

Well, first off, if you can't face the prospect of living alone for the rest of your life and look forward to it, then you are in no condition whatsoever to enter a relationship. You have to be happy with yourself, first. Don't look to a relationship, and especially DO NOT LOOK TO BECOMING A PARENT AS A WAY TO DEAL WITH YOUR OWN DEPRESSION. Kids aren't pets, plus 99% of the time that just won't work, and the kids and the spouse suffer when you realize how disappointing the results are. Fix yourself first.

Having been lucky enough that a couple of my ex's were actually fairly well adjusted, I can say the next obstacle is a lack of open communication. If you want to be happy with someone for a couple decades, and perhaps raise a few rugrats, you have to be on the same page. Doing this requires having many conversations which deal with what kind of future you would both be happy with. Not your hopes, not his/her hopes, but rather your mutual tolerances.

Another way to say this same thing is that dragging your pre-relationship attitudes and expectations into what should be a new chapter in your life is incorrect behavior. Let's take the expectations first.

Take two people with hopes and dreams and put them in a room and, if they were to talk honestly and with no qualms, in less than ten minutes they will easily discover that it will never work. If you are not flexible about your future, and you don't have the attitude that you can live a happy life even if it doesn't go as you currently envision, a relationship is the last thing you should be looking for.

Now let's take attitudes. Developing the kind of friendship that is required for a successful relationship, rather than throwing the dice and hoping you luck out and find Mr/Mrs compatibility, requires having about two years worth of very embarrassing conversations. They take two years because we don't want to come right out and talk about certain things, and so these conversations are done through inference, allusion, bounds testing, and other tricks that allow us to plumb the secrets of each other's minds, hearts and souls without asking in a straightforward manner.

If you drag a personal grudge from a previous relationship, or a kneejerk reaction to certain attitudes or ideas, or, god forbid, a political agenda into this ongoing conversation, it will derail. It is fragile enough as it is without the extra diversion.

So there you go. Fix yourself, be prepared to be happy under a wide range of possible futures, forgive your new partner for all the transgressions of the partners before him or her, and those of their entire gender, and those of any other category to which he or she belongs to, and then TAKE YOUR SWEET TIME AND FALL IN LOVE.

And that's pretty much the way I see it.

Now as to why I'm single. People (male or female) who believe what I have said above, and walk the talk, are extremely hard to find. Plainly, I am going to have to settle for a more rocky road to romance. Before I do, I want to remove any obstacles that would make it more complicated. So, I probably won't be looking until I have secured my financial future, for example, and taken care of a few other things.

But most of all, I have gotten passed step one. I'm not afraid of the idea of living alone for the rest of my life. That would be one option that would be perfectly fine with me.

[Love Bug]

1. Wordy, word, word, skids!

Excellent post!

[smirkymonkey]

2. Hi Skids! I believe I am your female equivalent!

I feel exactly the same way and I have also been voluntarily single for 5 years (despite many offers.) I actually enjoy being alone, but I am beginning to think I like it too much so I am just starting to make myself a little more available.

I feel the same way that a lot of men do - I really want to be completely happy with where I am in my life (job, social life, etc.) before I enter into a relationship, but I sometimes wonder if I should loosen that up a bit, as there is someone who has been very attentive toward me lately and I don't want to put him off simply because I haven't found my dream career yet.

[Wetzelbill]

5. me too! I'm worried I like being single too much

it's a fine line.

[glitch]

18. Me too - and our numbers are growing.

Last I read 25% of adults in the US are voluntarily single. That was about 5 years ago, so the numbers may be different now.
The demographers in the article I read said it was the first time in history that those numbers were so high. They speculated that it as a sign of health that our culture didn't need to partner up for survival.
Don't ask for the link, it's long gone into the fuzzy grey.
Interesting though, huh?

[skids]

22. Yeah, that worries me actually.

...I'm glad we are affluent and healthy, but the falloff in parenting that comes with an affluent society creates problems of culture/demographics churn in a world where there is such a stark inequity from one country to another.

The trend towards more adoption helps, though, as does charity. If we could just stop creeps from gaming the poverty/charity system both in the literal and general sense, we might get somewhere globally.

[glitch]

24. Actually, most of these single types did breed. Most were pre-kids

(20s, early 30s) who intended to breed or post-raising-kids(50s-90s) - more divorced parents of raised kids choosing to remain single after their divorce, but some parents not even marrying in the first place.
It probably has more to do with living longer than anything else.
Lots of adults outside their windows of reproduction, where marriage might not be their best option.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. I think this is a good post.

However, I don't think there is a problem with not wanting to spend the rest of your life alone. Could I manage? Yeah, I'm not going to go batshit insane or anything. Do I want to? No, I don't. I do not think I would be happiest if I never found someone to marry and share my life with. And I don't see any problem in feeling that way.

[Wetzelbill]

8. there isn't

I'm a little nervous about being alone for the rest of my life, in all honesty. I think I've become risk averse too, because I like being single. But, I know I'd be really happy to share things in my life with someone, as I'm sure you are. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[smirkymonkey]

12. How old are you? If you don't mind, that is.

I just had a birthday, and even though I am in my prime, I am starting to think a bit more about not going it alone. Instead of thinking I NEED someone, I just think it could be more fun with a compatible mate.

[Wetzelbill]

16. I am 30

Yeah, I don't feel like I need someone, as much as I believe it would be great to find someone compatible who I can share it all with.

[enigmatic]

14. You'll be fine

embrace the solitude, and learn from it.

[Wetzelbill]

17. oh, I may embrace it too much

lol.

[Wetzelbill]

4. I'm sorta similar

I've been abstinent for quite a while too. I'm not going to win any beauty contests or anything, but I usually do ok with women when I want to do so. I became celibate because I had an experience with a one-night stand that I wasn't proud of. I just didn't like being that sort of man. I would rather be with someone I loved and cared for then to just get laid.

However, I am pretty eccentric. I'm a homebody who tends to do things their own way. Outwardly, I am humorous, friendly, at times quiet, but most people would think I'm pretty outgoing. But, really, I'm a loner. I like my space and I like to do things that require me to be alone. Like read and write for example. I'm also a hopeless romantic who is deathly afraid of living my life alone. That's one place where I definitely differ from you on.

I do feel that I have too fix somethings with myself and get moving on my career and everything before I am ready for anything remotely serious. I would like to take my time with love. I think you hit it right with that as well.

Good post, I really liked reading what you said. Now, I feel like I'm not the only man who feels like this. I don't really know any othe males, personally, who have a similar outlook to mine. So, yeah, glad you took the time to post your views.

[enigmatic]

6. Excellent post

I didn't meet my wife until I was in my late 30's; until then, I was a confirmed Loner who had his share of relationships. I would have been happy tpo spend the rest of my life that way, but I met my wife, and we're very, very happy. She's my everything.

I'd really love for the OP's thread to have more posts than all the Battle Of The Sexes flamewar threads combined, but I know it's not going to happen.

Too bad.

[LRSU_Ghost]

7. Totally agree Brother! Same boat...

[sui generis]

9. some people are single because they get used to being single

my widowed sister keeps her suitors at arms length - and she's "hot" (hey from an insensitive gay guy with excruciatingly good taste) and smart.

No - she just likes Her house and Her life without compromise. I have other friends who have "filled" their lives so completely with themselves there is no room for anyone else. They're not at all unhappy people, and I'm certainly not judgemental about it either.

They have changed their expectations, have grown comfortable living alone in their own "space", and mostly reject emotional closeness because it "invades" their space. Whatever works - some people are not happy in the confines of a relationship.

Can't judge that; but I'm a lot more social in my personal life. I can even see the temptation some days to not have to compromise or consider someone else's desires, but a relationship is more than just convenience and mutual ownership if it's a good one that will last. Unfortunately, like any other set of nebulous problems and wonders, relationships have to be learned through mistakes and forgiveness and acceptance when boundaries are breached or feelings are hurt.

On the positive, they are also learned through laughter and mutual affection and mutual appreciation and mutual admiration and respect, but even through surviving mutual drudgery (housework, and "oh no, not another family reunion in BFE, Alaska"). Relationships are not for the emotionally lazy, or even for the plain ol' lazy. You have to work at them to keep them alive, and moreover, you have to want to work at it.

I think it's more honest to say you don't want it than to have it and hate it and waste your heartbeats and someone else's trying to figure things out. But if you know you want it up front - that's where you're committed.

No judgements here -

[Inland]

10. Entire relationships come and go in shorter times than to read this post.

My guess is that living alone is either the cause or the result.

[sui generis]

23. wicked wicked post

and I respect that.

I think waiting for the perfect one to come along will be a long wait. People have pasts, that's what makes them who they are. People change over time, absorb and build on their "baggage", whatever one conceives that to be. The trick is not getting the perfect mate or changing someone to be the perfect mate - it's accepting your differences. If you must change them to suit you - you're the wrong person in that relationship. If you have to wait until the perfect person comes along, you won't have the skills to keep that relationship perfect. Everyone else is just shiny plastic barbie and ken doll people, with not a whole lot of life to share.

Have a relationship or five. Practice makes perfect, and having failed relationships, hurts and discomforts and all helps you determine what's important and what's not so that when the right one comes along you won't fuck it up.

[K8-EEE]

11. Speed Dating

My divorced friend is doing this...you meet 6 people in an hour, 10 minutes a piece, exchange business cards & if you both 'pick' each other you proceed from there.

Kind of interesting in a scary way!! I haven't been single for a long time but it seems some how more difficult now for my friends. I think you do have to be happy by yourself first. I liked this post!

[peacebuzzard]

33. I always wanted to try that.

[alarimer]

39. No way I could do that

I am pretty shy and it takes a whole before I could think of anything to say. Too much pressure. And how can you judge someone in 5 minutes or so? I think I would prefer a less superficial encounter.

In this city, I encounter a lot of guys who seem to be threatened (or at least don't much like) women who are smart. Now, since I am working on a Masters this concerns me. Of course I don't want to live in this redneck burg for the rest of my life so I suppose it lets me off the hook. I do not want to get attached and then be forced to live here the rest of my life with no hope for career advancement. So I am usually honest about that too and that may be the reason I NEVER hear from a guy a second time. And I mean never. Never once in the last four years have I had a second date. While it is possible that they are threatened by my ambition or intelligence, it may be more likely that they aren't going to waste their time on someone who refuses to stay in this stupid town, even in this stupid state. SO I guess I have only myself to blame.

I sort of got off topic here didn't I?? I only meant to talk about speed dating.

[Adams Wulff]

13. Thanks for an awesome post!

Took the words right off of my fingertips.

Your experience and wisdom reflect mine, and I am now in a happy, healthy relationship.

I used to buy into the 'opposites attract' meme, until I realized that, though opposites do tend to attract initially, they spend the rest of the time trying to dominate the other. Sometimes, you just can't avoid the 'physics' thing.

Thanks again, and nominated!

[tjdee]

15. Why this post kind of irritates me.

Much of what you say is true, obviously. Do people really think men don't like average looking women?

But what kind of (*kind of*, don't hate me LOL) irks me is that one of your desires is to find someone who communicates openly about 'mutual tolerances' without the burden of "pre-relationship attitudes and expectations", and is flexible about the future.

I think that's another way of saying you want someone without "baggage"--and I can completely understand how finding someone with no baggage is "extremely hard." It is very hard to find someone who isn't affected by their past relationships in some way. Some deal with their baggage better than others.

IMO, all pre-relationship attitudes/expections are not to be discarded. I'm pretty sure my pre-existing expectation that a man shouldn't be an alcoholic/drug abuser is fairly useful. Also, if I know that I do not get along with men who...whatever, um...Republican, for example--are you saying I should continue to see men like that just because this one might be different?

I'm also amused by this arbitrary "two years" for developing a friendship. Why two? Why not 18 months? Or five years?

Overall I think you're seeking an extremely sanitary love affair, which I find fascinating.

[skids]

21. YMMV.

Two years is an estimate I worked up based on my own experiences, and those of my friends. Your mileage may vary.

A general comment I would offer is that nothing I said above is one-sided. Everything above would apply to me as much as it would to the lady. Watch for oncoming traffic.

I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't apply a litmus test or three before even starting a relationship. There are some characteristics people have that just may be flat out incompatible, and no, noone should subject themselves to alcoholics, or even shopaholics for that matter, if it isn't something they are capable of handling and can make a place for in their lives. What I'm trying to get at is two things: give the person a clean slate to start with, and don't try to agressively shape them (they are not clay, even the submissive types that say they are.)

As far as baggage, that's a fact of life, and you will be talking about each others baggage for a good portion of the relationship. That's OK. Probably even healthy.

What's not OK is when you take that baggage and attempt to make it become manifest in your partner, so that you can make it take a solid form and beat on it. This is done subconsciously in most cases so it is really something to be on the lookout for.

Do I want an "extremely sanitary" love affair? Well, first, of course I do, why wouldn't I? I'm willing to spend the time to be picky. It is, after all, a bigger deal than most, perhaps all, other decisions I will ever make.

But secondly I'm also a realist, as I said above, and not the type of person to turn my nose up at a relationship that turns out to be a bit of a "fixer upper." Unless I totally luck out and find one of these rare folks (and I sincerely thank people for all the replies which are encouraging me to think maybe they aren't quite as rare as I may have estimated) my plan is to remove some of the more surmountable challenges before the relationship. Always choose your footing wisely.

Or, to skip it altogether, because yes, no relationship at all is better than one that would make me unhappy, unfulfilled, and frustrated trying to salvage.

[LastKnight]

19. excellent post.

this one needs to be read by alot more of the loungers. maybe we can stop this 'nice' guy/girl nonsense...

[knowbody0]

20. you sound like a male me

single and loving it for three years. good to read your words, many see us as freaks.

[Robbie Michaels]

25. Whew! I'm Glad I'm Not The Only One

I agree with what you're saying. I'm going to be 36 years old very soon, and I'm happily single. I'm surrounded by friends, family and pets, so I don't ever feel lonely.

I don't have a problem finding someone. If I want a girlfriend, I could make that happen tonight if I really wanted to. I'm single by choice because I'm picky, but not for vanity's sake.

I have no problem with what a woman looks like. It's not that I don't appreciate it when they put on makeup, style their hair, or do other things to make themselves attractive. I do appreciate beauty, but it's not the thing that makes me decide if I want to develop or remain in a relationship.

I'm a lot more concerned with her attitude, her philosphy on things, and her political leanings. Those are things I refuse to compromise on just to have someone in my life.

If there is anything I can add to this topic, it's that we shouldn't let relationships define ourselves. If you have to be with someone in order to make yourself feel validated in some way, then there's other issues that need to be addressed.

We can't look at others as the source of our happiness. If we're not happy with ourselves, then dating someone like Angelia Jolie isn't going to make things better in the long run. Finding happiness has to come from within.

[carolinayellowdog]

26. "Neglecting" lbgs?

Hey,

Just because your experience is hetero doesn't mean it's not relevant to everyone. Rings true for me; as cliche as it sounds, I found a life partner only after deciding I didn't need one.

Happily ever after,

CYD

[skids]

27. I meant grammatically.

The post is termed in hetero terms, and I didn't want to phrase every sentence as "SOs like nice SOs and other SOs like plain SOs" so I was just apologizing for my verbal bias.

[mike_c]

28. excellent post, my brother...

...and a very nice summation of how I feel at this point in my life. I wish I had been that wise when I was younger.

[Tsiyu]

29. Kick...should be RLR*

* Required Lounge Reading ;)

[dalaigh lllama]

30. I have over three decades of experience in a relationship

with my spouse. We are still in love and best friends, so I feel I can safely give some input on how to have a successful relationship. I've seen several of our friends' marriages go down the toilet, while others seem to be thriving; if I were a betting person, I could probably make some money predicting which ones are headed for trouble.

RESPECT cannot be emphasized enough. Calling your spouse "stupid bitch" or "lazy asshole" in the midst of arguments (or even as a "joke") will kill a relationship quicker than anything. That would seem to merit a "well, duh!" response, but I've seen too many folks who you'd think would know better talk to and about their spouses that way.
SENSE OF HUMOR is a prerequisite. If you can't recognize and laugh at your own foibles (NOT just someone else's), you're in deep doodoo. This is certainly part of your idea of being comfortable in your own skin before you start a relationship: if you don't like/love yourself, you can't like/love someone else.
FIX YOURSELF, NOT YOUR SPOUSE. No one is perfect, obviously, but the only one you can change to be a better person is looking back at you in the mirror every morning. (That little bit of wisdom took me twenty years of marriage to figure out.) Incidentally, I think this is what's wrong with the nuts in the WH and the RW idiots -- it's too painful for them to look at their own problems, so they're trying to "fix" everyone else's, whether they want fixing or not. That's why I'm never surprised when loud-mouthed holier-than-thou types get exposed as closet drug-users, pedophiles, wife-beaters, and so on and so on.
COUPLES DON'T HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING TOGETHER. We're all individuals -- or should be. Some of my husband's hobbies make my eyes glaze over, and some of mine do the same for him; therefore, we pursue some personal interests without the other. Neither one of us does the guilt-trip, resentment inducing "Don't you want to do this with me?" OTOH, I'm always bemused at friends who say "Oh, I'd love doing that, but (insert spouse here) wouldn't like it, so I can't."

On reflection, most of what I've said would be applicable to maintaining a relationship. If you're wondering about the hidden "warts" on someone you're dating, just spend some time with their parents -- they won't hide their "warts" after a few visits, and you'll be able to see just what you might eventually have to contend with.
I don't think I've ever seen a "perfect" relationship, but those that seem successful are ones that are continually in a state of becoming, rather than being.

[HomerRamone]

31. Ah, the arrogance of youth.

> I'm not afraid of the idea of living alone for the rest of my
> life. That would be one option that would be perfectly fine with
> me.

Don't assume you won't wake up at fifty years old feeling very differently...

[electron_blue]

32. LOL, I have similar thoughts.

[skids]

34. At 50.

I don't think I'll be terribly concerned whether I can have sex with the people around me.

Friends will do.

[HomerRamone]

35. Wow. Did I think that at 30?

Hate to tell ya, but my contemporaries and I (just old enough to drink when punk started) have sex drives as strong as ever...

[skids]

36. Yeah, well...

Perhaps that's beside the point.

...my sex drive doesn't seem to be making my life miserable now, despite being abstinant, so why should it suddenly kick in at 50?

As I said, it's all about friends. Sex is just one spice in a life full of others.

[HomerRamone]

37. You might find

that almost all your friends have paired off, and maybe had children, and they're just not available hardly at all anymore. (Believe me on this one!)

You might find yourself wishing you had children when you were younger.

You might also find yourself freaking out that you're old enough to be the parent of some people you're attracted to, and you're not rich enough for a "trophy" partner...

[skids]

40. Well, I'd believe you...

...except that some of my friends ARE couples with children.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. I used to think fifty-year-olds were over the hill, too

until I reached that age.

Now I think, where's this hill that I'm supposed to be over?. :-)

[Redstone]

41. I wouldn't be inclined to take relationship advice from someone who says

"Having been lucky enough that a couple of my ex's were actually fairly well adjusted," which indicates that you believe that the majority of women are NOT well-adjusted. I don't think that's true, and I think that statement indicates a pretty goddamn condescending attitude toward women, along with your pretty condescending attitude toward just about everyone else.

Furthermore, you've "gotten past step one" (or think you have), not "gotten passed step one."

Redstone

[skids]

43. Not just women.

The majority of people (of the kind that I encounter, which would mean Americans for the most part) are not well adjusted. It should be fairly obvious from the rest of my post that that is what I think, and so I see no basis for you to single out women and cast me as a sexist. (Cheap trick, boo!)

Most people I have met are psychologically troubled in one way or another, and have managed to mask that with a veneer of conformance, rather than make peace with themselves.

If you think that's condescending, well, screw off. My life, my friends, my choice, my business.

[Redstone]

45. OK, I'll "screw off." But you made it my business by

posting your opinions.

Don't want responses you may not like? Don't post your opinions in public places.

Pretty simple.

Redstone

[skids]

46. Oh, so now you want me to be silent, eh?

What's the matter, you didn't like my response? Well then maybe you shouldn't post your opinion in a public place. Kinda feels like I'm telling you to shut up, eh? Yeah, that's how it felt for me, too.

[Redstone]

48. Nope. It's just that if you're going to put yourself in the place

of telling everyone else how they ought to live their lives, you should understand that you'll get some dissenting opinons.

You, nor I, nor anyone, has all the answers in life. However, I am smart and experienced enough to understand that I don't have those answers, and therefore am not qualified to tell other people how they should live.

As you grow older, perhaps you'll reach that kind of understanding too, and back off on the superciliousness and hostility.

It's not your place to lecture people on how they should live their lives. Nor mine, or anybody's. Every one of us must make his or her own way, even if that way is not the one of which you approve.

Redstone

[LSK]

42. i am another volunteer single

I think I am just set in my ways and I like my freedom to do whatever I like. Maybe I am "lazy" but right now I dont see a point to put forth any effort to get to know a partner. And I dont complain one bit about being alone either.

[Clark2008]

44. Met a great guy two months ago.

I know all the stories about how you shouldn't move too fast and the fact that he's 32 and never married and blah, blah, blah.

Well... guess what? He always emails me at work with a sweet morning greeting. He brings me flowers when the last flowers he brought me dies. He calls when he says he will. And he says he knew I was "it" when he met me, even though "society" (and, the fact that I went through a hell of a divorce) kept him from telling me until he about burst.

SOOO... I asked him, "How'd you know?" He said a variety of reasons, but ONE OF THE BIGGEST is that I "don't need a man. I'm capable of taking care of myself and I'm not clingy or irrational."

So, in a nutshell, I got used to my own skin, was happy with myself, finally, and, boom, the firecrackers hit.

[skids]

47. That's heartwarming.

Best of luck to you both. :-)

[RoyGBiv]

49. Speak it ...

This is an excellent commentary. I am thoroughly impressed.

I spent much of my young life afraid of being alone, and when I saw an outside shot of getting married, I went with it. That, of course, was a disaster. I spent the next several years in a similar state of being, involved in several relationships that, similar to your experiences, mostly ended on good terms, but they ended. Because of that, I was miserable.

But then something weird happened. I stopped having roommates, was forced to fend for myself, and at some point I just realized that this is actually a pretty good way to be. I haven't entirely discarded the idea of a relationship, but I'm not looking for one and don't think about why I'm not in one at all anymore. I'm happy where I am, happy with my friends, happy with my life.

Thanks for posting this.

[EC]

50. Me too,

15 years...I waited a long time for this...first your parents tell you what you can or can't do, then marriage has responsibilities that have priority...empty nest is nice...

I have friends and family, go out and can pretty much do what I want, most of all I've got my own...