11 Year Old Girl Threw Rock - She Will Be Tried For A Felony

[matcom]

<snip>

FRESNO, Calif. -- Advocates for an 11-year-old girl who was arrested on a deadly weapon charge for throwing a 2-pound rock during a water balloon fight say the charge in no way fits the crime.

But Fresno's mayor and police chief say Maribel Cuevas's case was handled appropriately, and that assault with a deadly weapon is the proper charge for an act that might have had fatal consequences.

The case was to go to trial Wednesday in the Juvenile Delinquency Division of Fresno Superior Court. In an unusual move for a case involving a minor, the trial will be open to the public.

Maribel was arrested in April for throwing the rock at a neighborhood boy who had pelted her with a water balloon. The rock gashed the boy's forehead, and the girl spent five days in Fresno's juvenile hall and a month under house arrest after police said she resisted arrest and scratched an officer's arm.

Lisa Bennett, a legal assistant for defense attorney Richard Beshwate Jr., said efforts to avert a trial were fruitless. "Even though there may or may not be good offers, having her plead guilty to a crime is not acceptable," Bennett said Tuesday.

Alvin Harrell, the Fresno County assistant district attorney who supervises juvenile cases, said court rules prohibited him from commenting.

In a statement issued shortly after The Associated Press published a story about the case, Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer defended his department's actions.

http://www.wftv.com/irresistible/4802585/detail.html

[datasuspect]

1. glad i was a kid in the early 70s

we had "brick" fights and loved to shoot bb guns at each other while playing war.

[johnnie]

2. Good

Little shit.

[GOPisEvil]

3. Wait a second: they've released her name and her trial is public?

So much for sealing her juvenile records when she becomes an adult.

Is there a crime here, possibly, but her trial shouldn't be open and her name shouldn't be released.

[Tsiyu]

4. Good points

We used to protect juveniles. Now we criminally cannibalize them to look "tough on crime."

[XemaSab]

10. she's a mexican:

mexicans don't have the same "rights" as white people in fresno.

/sarcasm

[GOPisEvil]

11. Fresno: home to Free Republic.

I think that says it all.

[XemaSab]

23. It sure does

I live about an hour from Fresno, and God... Mordor's got nothing on Fresno.

[dr.strangelove]

45. No - her family did

They are trying to get public support, and succeeding to.
The DA did not comment because he is not allowed. Once the family requested the mayor get involved, his obligation to keep the child's name out of the public record ended. The child's family has the right to waive anonymity.

[youspeakmylanguage]

5. Think about it from the parent's perspective...

Kids were playing, hitting each other with water balloons, and one girl decided to ratchet it up about 5 or 6 notches and throw a 2 pound rock at the boy's forehead. Seriously, that could have killed him. If I was the boy's father I would want her to face serious charges as well. The girl also assaulted police officers when they tried to take her in.

I was a kid in the 80's and 90's, and I remember that fights could get nasty, but I never remember anyone throwing a rock that large directly at someone's head.

I don't think they should have released her name but I do think she does deserve to be prosecuted for a crime.

[Shell Beau]

7. I think she should be punished, but

a deadly weapon charge? She probably had no clue what the "real" consequences could have been. She is 11. I just think this is going too far.

[youspeakmylanguage]

8. I guess it would help to have a physical example of a 2 pound rock...

I'm not sure if I'm picturing the right size of the rock in my head. If a 2 pound rock isn't that large, then I could concede that she shouldn't be charged with anything labeled "deadly". But I'm sure it's a subjective thing.

If it connects with your head at the right speed, angle, and spot, then even a pebble could be deadly. But the larger the rock, the less sympathy I have in this case. 11 is old enough to know what a large rock could do to a person's head.

[Shell Beau]

9. I know, but take yourself back to the age of 11.

They know better of course, but do they think that logically before they throw the rock? I don't know. But I do think that she should get punished, there is no question about that, but the severity of the punishment is what I have a problem with.

[crispini]

12. a two pound rock is pretty big and heavy

a rock the size of your fist would probably weigh half a pound, if that....

[youspeakmylanguage]

16. See, it would take a huge leap...

...for me to imagine that throwing a rock that large at a person's head wouldn't result in serious injury (and consequences), even for an 11-year old mind.

[XemaSab]

13. We punish kids as juveniles

because kids are stupid and they do stupid shit like this. my 4th grade teacher told us a story about throwing rocks at passing cars when he was a kid.

kids throw ice balls, rocks, dirt clods, sticks, and all kinds of crap at each other that adults are horrified at, but kids don't have the perspective to understand how dangerous that can be.

if this was a gringo kid, she would not be punished like this, but it's because she's hispanic that she's being tried as an adult.

if she was 17, then maybe try her as an adult, but 11????? That's way too young.

[youspeakmylanguage]

14. She is being tried as a juvenile, according to the news report...

...but I do think it's improper and possibly racist that her name was released and her trial will be open to the public. I don't understand the reasoning behind that, if there is any valid reasoning.

[Rabrrrrrr]

29. I wouldn't be surprised if they're "sending a message" to the hispanic

community. A reminder of who really holds the power in the community, and that they're willing to abuse that power, so "keep in line" and "don't act wetbackish" and you'll be okay. Just keep pickin' crops and working in restaurants and maintaining our yards, but don't be getting uppity and don't be noticable outside your workplace. You can live here, but don't do anything.

[youspeakmylanguage]

33. I understand there is racism towards the Mexican community, but it's a...

...stretch to automatically assume all of that based on a court's decision regarding privacy.

She hit a boy in the head with a 2 pound rock and then resisted arrest. What does that have to do with "pickin' crops and working in restaurants and maintaining our yards"? And assault isn't the best way to "be noticable outside your workplace".

[Rabrrrrrr]

36. It has nothing to do with it. That's precisely why I mentioned it.

Throwing rocks and assualting IS being noticed, and it IS NOT staying docile in the workplace and it IS NOT staying unnoticed in the community.

[youspeakmylanguage]

38. I'm sorry, but I still don't understand your point...

She is being prosecuted (rightly so, IMHO) for assaulting someone. I would hope that if someone were to assault me with a 2 pound rock, even an 11 year-old girl, then he or she would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law regardless of race, religion, and social standing. That's how a fair democracy and justice system should work.

Are you saying that she shouldn't be prosecuted because she's Mexican?

[Rabrrrrrr]

42. No, of course she needs to be prosecuted. Don't be silly.

I don't think she needs a felony charge, but that's up in the air debatable, since I also don't know law, etc.

BUT I don't think she needs her privacy invaded and a public trial, her name sent out, etc.

It's the latter stuff (and maybe also the felony charge) that I think the Powers That Be are using to send a message to the hispanic community, to remind them that they can be fucked with any time the Powers That Be want to fuck with 'em.

I'm not sure that the system would be as severe were it a white girl.

[youspeakmylanguage]

43. You and I agree, then, on everything except the felony charge...

I think some of the privacy issues are motivated by racism. But I still think the rock was big enough that the felony charge is fair.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that last point.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Threw A 2# Rock! A Little Girl?

An olympic shotput is only 8 times that weight and the people who throw them are huge and STRONG!!!!

I'm not sure i buy all the facts as presented. There's something else here that isn't covered.
The Professor

[dr.strangelove]

46. A two pound rock is part of the problem

Also, the shot put is 12 or 16 pounds and the weight drop off is significant. I used to throw the 12 pounder 45 feet or so when I was on the hs track team. In college I could barely top 25 feet with only four more pounds (I did not make the team). ALso, shot put is more about the style of throwing, a running start and more than a 5 foot circle would add many feet to the throw.
An average eleven year old girl could easily throw a 2 pound ball far enough to hit someone several feet away, probably 15-20 feet. Its simply not that heavy.

[ProfessorGAC]

47. We'll Agree To Disagree

Two pounds is lot of weight to throw for a kid that age. A baseball weighs less than a fourth of that.
The Professor

[dr.strangelove]

48. Had to test it since we last talked

I'm off today and visiting with my nieces (ages 8, 12 and 15). The 15 year old refused to participate, (she is having one of those days where she thinks I am an old fart) but she did later join us.

I had my twelve year old niece (sorry I did not have an eleven year old around) throw a 2.5 pound weight from my old weight set. We measured it and it went 22 feet. Granted she is 12. I think she is average size and strength for a a kid her age, but I have no proof of that. The 8 year old got it about 5 feet.

Water also weighs 1 kg/liter (which is 2.2 pounds). So I filled up a one liter bottle of diet coke from lunch, filled it with water and she got it as far as 14 feet but complained the bottle was too hard to throw.

We don't have a scale that is accurate at low weight and I could really not tell the difference between 2 and 4 pounds since there are only numbers every 10 pounds on my mom's bathroom scale, so I tried to find a rock with about the same weight as the soda. I don't know the weight of the rock I picked, but it was pretty close to the soda bottle. The 12 year old reached 15-16 or so feet every time, once she went past the pencil we stuck in the ground where the weight landed. The little one broke 8 feet once, but most fell within five feet. The 15 year old plays soccer and is in pretty good shape. She finally came down and nearly beat we with the soda bottle.

Anyway, I am happy to disagree with you. I am more confident in my answer now.

[ProfessorGAC]

49. One Problem With The Experiment

Platic bottles and weights are built to be easily gripped with one hand. Rocks have irregular shapes, and this one was "jagged". So, the release off the fingers, which is where throwing distance is best facilitated, is difficult at best.

Not sure i buy the test as you ran it. Too many variables missing.

But, we can agree to disagree.
The Professor

[dr.strangelove]

50. Fine - we can't all be professors

Plastic botttles and weights are not designed to be thrown. A bottle is designed to be lifted with one hand easily. I had a hard time throwing the liter bottle of soda over 25 feet, and I could hurl triple that weight in a round ball 40+ feet (or at lweast I think I still could, have not thrown a shot put in ages). I can't really buy the bottle shape aiding throwing, in fact I think it hinders it. As for the weight, what kind of weights do you work out with. Designed to be lifted with one hand. It is a flat disc with a hole in it. It is easier to lift an equal weight object with the weight spread out then a dense object with no handle. I find your comments on the design of those two items somehow aiding throwing abiliyt to be complete hogwash. But as you said, I'll agree to disagree with you.

I also call bullspit on the rest of your view of my expiriment. Don;t know what you are talking about release of the fingers. That may aid in direction and control, but distance is a product of arm speed, release angle and strength (among other factors) but finger release point has little to do with distance. Anyway, I'm happy to disagree with you.

[ProfessorGAC]

51. Like I Said

We'll just disagree. This whole story stinks to high heaven and there's something they're not reporting.

ON the fingers thing: Ask anyone who's ever pitched at high level. Ask them the difference between the release of a knucleball or change-up and a fastball. It's the release at the tips of the fingers. Sorry, but on this one, you are dead wrong. The exact same arm speed and release point will produce drastically different initial velocities. Drastically different.

And you were redundant. Strength and arm speed are correlated. More muscular development allows more force to be applied to only slightly more weight. F = MA, right?

Now you know what i was talking about. And, one liter bottles ARE meant to be held easily in one hand. So, you can call bullshit all you want. But, that would make you unwilling to see the truth. That's on you. Have a good rest of the day.
The Professor

[dr.strangelove]

52. I have pitched at high level

At least I consider D1 a high level. I was not good enough to merit a draft pick, as many of my teammates did (I was kind of a short and big guy and did not have the body type baseball team take a chance on). So if only pro players are high level in your book, I'm out, but I'll give money if you (assuming you are not a pro ball player) can hit me four out of ten pitches.

Nonetheless, it is you who are dead wrong. The placement of ones fingers on a baseball during the pitching of change-up or fastball has a significant amount to do with direction and movement on the ball, but very little to do with the velocity. Arm strength by the way has NOTHING to do with arm speed. Arm speed does impact velocity, but not as much as mechanics. I benched and curled more weight with more reps than everyone on my team every fall training camp. I had very little armspeed, which is probably why I never topped 85 mph with my fastball. Velocity is all about mechanics. The legs are more important to throwing a fastball or an outfielder throwing a ball into home from deep than the arms.

A knuckleball is a completely different pitch. It is all about how the seams of the ball are released and catch the air. It is thrown very slow, so there are lots of chances for the air to catch a flat ball and move it. It look nothing like a fastball or changeup. You telegraph the pitch and dare the hitter to wait for it, since it will appear to move in several different direction on the way to the plate. Some physics geeks once tried to tell us that a knuckleball doesn't actually move, it just appears to move. Thats fine, my point is that it is thrown very slow, and has a vastly different look to any other pitch.

Junk pitches are all about wrist action and the seams of the ball, though getting a well hit ball where you can pinch a little leather and created a draft spot is always nice. In some colleges they are cheap and use only a few balls a game, by the 6th inning, the balls are well hit and you can cause a temporary indentation with your thumbnail. This is again not about the arm, but the air in between me and the plate.

Please don't try to explain pitching mechanics to an athlete who pitches. You really don't sound like you know what you are talking about. Also, your last comment about the exact same arm speed and release points producing drastically different initial velocities is insane. Any pitcher who uses the same armspeed and release point for a changeup and fastball is either lying or is named Pedro Martinez, who probably has the most deceptive changeup in the history of the game. It is a trick with physics and knowing the problems with depth perception without an equally distant reference point to judge the length of the stride and stance. By changing the speed yet making the hitter think you have not, you accomplish the change. You increase drag on the ball by throwing from further back in your stance and a few inches closer to the rubber. This causes the ball to look like it is a fastball, but come out slower. It is in fact a very different arm speed, it is just supposed to look the same because you are shortening the stance and the stride. There is a significant amount of leg strength and torque build up in a fast ball. Part of a change up is masking the release of torque (releasing some of the energy in the back foot - the rubber foot) and making it seem like you are going to bring it all on one pitch. To a poor batter, he will look fastball, all you really did was throw it slower, but lessened the time to release it and made it look the same. It only works if the hitter is staring at you from the front, when he is at the plate. The runners at 1st and 3rd can tell it is a changeup coming and will often try to signal the hitter of what is coming, which is illegal.

Anyway, I think you feel something about the story does not make sense. I think the portion of the story about a girl throwing a 2 pound rock makes sense and tried to exchange ideas with you as to why. Feel free to disagree. Please do not "professor" me about the physics of sports. I have been throwing things in sports all my life. I was the starting QB for my high school team, threw the shot put, javelin and pole vaulted, I pitched in hs and through college and tried to play soccer to stay in shape, but I sucked. I try to golf now (though I have yet to master the physics of this game). I don;t care if you think my experiment with my girls was not adequate since it was more for fun than anything else. You comments about pitching sound like something a mlb talking head like Tom Seaver would say.

[Shell Beau]

6. Sure, she should get in some sort

of trouble for throwing such a large rock, but damn. I threw rocks as a kid. Deadly weapon charge? Like she had a clue that could have possibly been fatal. Kids don't think like that. Kids are invincible in their minds. This is ridiculous.

[El Fuego]

15. Good.

Pre-teens are committing murder more and more these days, I don't see any need to coddle them. If it sends a message that violence will not be tolerated, good.

[matcom]

17. so no mistakes are allowed by children

anymore :eyes:

[El Fuego]

18. Well...

I think it's a matter of degree:

Pulling Little Susie's pigtail - Harmless mistake, kids will be kids!

Bringing gun to school to shoot Little Susie - Mistake that probably shouldn't be allowed.

IMHO. :silly:

[Shell Beau]

19. Bringing a gun and throwing a rock are two

totally different things, IMO. Kids throw things all of the time. I know I threw some crazy stuff at my mean brothers. I guess I didn't think of what the consequences could be.

[El Fuego]

30. True

But a 2 pound rock is a BIG ASS ROCK! You can easily brain damage or blind someone.

I'm always a bit overly harsh on these law and order issues I guess.

[Shell Beau]

31. Maybe I just have

a bad concept of what a 2 lb. rock actually looks like. I can't really get a picture in my head of the size that rock probably was. That may help distinguish the type of punishment I think she should get. And you are right, that rock could have certainly done some damage!

[matcom]

20. agreed but that isn't what we are referring to with this case

hell when I was about 11 one kid shot me in the ass with his Red Ryder BB gun. the jeans stopped it and it didn't break the skin but it hurt like a bitch

i in turn pelted him in the back with an acorn using my wrist rocket. his hurt worse

should we have been tried as felons?

[El Fuego]

26. Red Ryder BB Gun?

YOU'LL PUT YOUR EYE OUT KID!

I think I'd charge him with assault with a weapon, you I would let off on self-defense. (At least you weren't using a rock.)

If one kid shoots another one TODAY with a BB gun, I can just imagine it would be lawsuits galore.

Ah, if only we could go back to simpler, more innocent times when we could shoot each other with BB guns with reckless abandon. *sigh*

[matcom]

27. LOL

:D

no, my point is/was that certain things are a part of growing up (in the burbs at least). kids hit kids. kids throw things at kids.

its what kids do. when they do it they should be punished but prosecuted for a FELONY?

in my day my Father would have tarred my hide, walk me to the other kids house so i could apologize to the boy and his family and then paid for any medical costs associated.

christ the kid needed stitches not a tourniquet!

[youspeakmylanguage]

28. It depends on what you consider to be a mistake...

I would consider assaulting someone with a rock big enough to severely crack a skull to be a pretty big mistake.

[Hugin]

21. I wonder if she was also wearing flip-flops?

I'll *keep* repeating it until I get a response.

So there!

:P

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. I see the Punishist Brigade is quite active today.

:boring:

[youspeakmylanguage]

34. "Punishist Brigade"?

:wtf:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. youdonotspeakmylanguage (nt)

[youspeakmylanguage]

39. I don't understand you either, brother.

I guess we'll both have to try a little harder.

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. She's hispanic. Of course she should be charged witha felony.

She should have been tasered, too. Repeatedly.

[Lars39]

32. What was the boy charged with?

He committed assault also.

[Coventina]

35. Exactly, it was a gang of boys against the girl

I can't say I wouldn't have done the same at age 11.

She had asked them repeatedly to leave her alone, yet they ganged up and attacked her AT HER OWN HOUSE! I can see her losing her temper and throwing a rock. No way do I believe it was a 2 pounder, though.

[Kire]

40. I'd be on death row by now if they did this to me.

n/t

[youspeakmylanguage]

41. Elijah Vang

Elijah Vang, the boy who was injured by Maribel and who has acknowledged throwing a water balloon at her, was expected to testify at the trial.

Would if matter to any of you if the victim in this case was a minority as well?

[Swede]

44. Under the Young Offenders Act names are not released.

In Canada,anyone charged under 18 have their names sealed under the Act.