Am I the only one that thinks poetry has no artistic merit?

[DS1]

*gets in flame suit*

[Speck Tater]

1. Yes.

[DS1]

19. wow! hey! you're right! out of 5.5 billion people, I AM

the only one! Woo hoo!

Nice argument.

[study_war_no_more]

53. and when did this bird that lives within my chest become such a fragile

thing.
Hey artistic intent aside poetry gets you laid.
He he he he just kidding!
Poet at large.

[ulysses]

2. ok, I'll do this

What's your working definition of "artistic merit"?

[DS1]

17. perhaps what I don't understand is

Why should short, choppy sentences have any more relevance than a message than a normally written story would? I see the difference between the grade school level

Large Kitchen Trash Bags
My Internet Connection lags

rythmic for the sake of being rythmic crap and this poetry that doesn't rhyme (it's supposed to be better), but in the end, it all boils down to a inferior form of delivering an idea.

[ulysses]

23. try this.

This is by a good friend of mine, and published in my poetry zine (http://www.newtonsbaby.com/gravity/) a few years ago.

GARDENERS

those who never lifted earth
lift my son's body in its sleeping

whispered prayers can't hide
the open wound in his chest

but i have hidden seeds in the boy
so when he's planted in the ground

rebellion will push up
like some crazy crimson flower

-- Perry Thompson

Contrast that with what I guess would be a more efficient way to deliver the idea.

My son was shot to death. I did, however, teach him things while he was alive that I hope will be realized.

No difference?

on edit: the toons of DUer Senryu Sid can be found in the zine as well.

28. Here's a way into it

IMHO
Taking your question in all seriousness.

sometimes less is more.
sometimes brevity or concentrated/distilled language has more power than a spiel.
That's at least one reason to try to write stuff in a poem instead of a story.

Another reason is that a story is an artificial construct in one direction, how often do events in our lives follow a nice tidy beginning middle end curve? Poetry is an artificial construct in a different direction.

& songs are a form of poetry, would they work if the words were not arranged in short choppy sentences within the song?

[amazona]

56. poetry isn't necessarily for everyone today

For most of human existence, on most of the planet, poetry as "rhythmic rhyming crap" was a necessary memory aid because our histories and stories existed only or mostly in an oral tradition.

For most of human history, most people (even the elites) did not read or write -- hey, we have scribes for that! -- and a play or thought might stick in the hearer's mind more readily if it was expressed with a punchy rhythm.

So poetry has been a very important process for most people, for most times.

However, in our time, I'm not sure poetry (unless set to music) is especially meaningful to most of us.

With a more universal literacy, giving us the freedom to read as we please rather than waiting to hear poetry declaimed or a play performed, we have more opportunities to understand and enjoy the complexities of the written word, be it prose or poetry. Prose may even appear superior, because to a modern mind the rhyme or rhythm of the poem may strike us as artificial. I don't think it makes you a bad person if you prefer prose to poetry. I think if we were honest with ourselves, many of us would have to confess the same. I would rather read a good novel than attend a poetry slam any day of the week. I don't think it makes me a hopeless snob. It just means that I have more options when it comes to being entertained than I would have had a few thousand or even a few centuries ago. And where you have more options, different people will make different choices in where they choose to place their attention.

[populistmom]

3. How about dirty limericks?

If the thought provoking stuff isn't for you, how about the silly stuff?

How's the Boston pics coming by the way? Do we all look like freaks or what?

:)

[DS1]

8. The Boston Pics are turning into a saga of Apple Mac letdowns

to be described when they are finally at home, here, in digital format, on a pc, and uploaded to my server. This could have been finished by Wednesday night, but alas, the Murphys Macs are out to get me.

[Rashind]

4. I'm generally not a fan of poetry...

But some of it does strike me as moving or beautiful.

I don't see how poetry could fail to have merit as art equal to, say, painting. Paintings are art because they are arrangements colors or images that are capable of evoking ideas or emotions. Poetry is very similar, except it is an arrangement of language.

[Richardo]

5. I don't "get" most poetry, but that's MY shortcoming

Maybe I'm missing the poetry gene.

However, I don't cast aspersions on those that do understand and enjoy it. In fact, sometimes I kind of envy them: they're seeing (or hearing) something powerful or emotional and to me it's essentially just one random word strung after another.


:shrug:

[TEXASYANKEE]

6. So it's not just me?

I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone. I find some poetry really beautiful and compelling, but most of the time I'm just left scratching my head.

[Bronco69]

7. There once was a man from Nantucket...

[SmileyBoy]

11. I think a Robert Pinsky(sp?) reading is one of the most boring things ever

I don't care for it.

[ulysses]

12. there's no "poetry gene"

Red wheelbarrows may not move you, but I'll bet something does. Music, great sex, a well-made cabinet - human meaning comes in many forms.

[Richardo]

22. I'm hip, my brother, and I do have the "aesteticism" gene ;-)

just not the part that appreciates poetry (or opera, for that matter) :D

[ulysses]

29. between us and the rest of the world

I loathe opera with every fiber of my being. :D

[Malva Zebrina]

38. ditto!!

.

[SOteric]

64. I'm not allowed to.

I'm Italian.

[ulysses]

69. hey, I'm Scots and German

and I'm not big on haggis or beer...;-)

[NicoleM]

30. My brain is way too literal

to "get" most poetry. If I don't miss the symbolism altogether, I usually think it's stupid. :)

But I wouldn't go so far as to say that poetry has no artistic value. This, for example, I love:

The world stands out on either side
No wider than the heart is wide;
Above the world is stretched the sky,—
No higher than the soul is high.
The heart can push the sea and land
Farther away on either hand;
The soul can split the sky in two,
And let the face of God shine through.
But East and West will pinch the heart
That can not keep them pushed apart;
And he whose soul is flat—the sky
Will cave in on him by and by.

Edna St. Vincent Millay

[SmileyBoy]

9. I really don't give a flying crap-cake about poetry, but I won't say...

...that it has "no artistic merit".

It's just something that I don't give a shit about.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

10. 99% of poetry is crap. But you can say that for most art.

It's all subjective.

13. let's start at a beginning

Homer

by the way, the quote in my signature is from a poem

[Bunny]

14. I wouldn't go so far as to say it has no artistic merit.

But it does nothing for me. Nothing at all. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, and that's what makes the world go round!

[Character Assassin]

15. Yeah, but if you fake it, you can pick up undergrad bohemian chicks...

Or, at least, it worked for me at Oregon.

[thebigidea]

26. ugh... pretty classy

[DS1]

32. precisely why I wrote that advice down

:7

[supernova]

49. Dead Poets' Society

This is Robin Williams' main selling point of poetry to his students. "To woo women!"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. I dunno: ODE TO DS 1

He post an inquiry
about the merits of poetry
he waits to get flamed for his thoughts

He sits and clicks the thread
while cummings and Ginsberg are still dead
he ties the lounge up in knots

He like the subtle bash
inherent in the culture clash
he drinks his can of Bud

He thinks he's being cute
by donning his flame retardent suit
he's such a cyber stud


He thinks he'll get a few high fives
from those who frequent pool hall dives
by greeting rhyme with scoff

but those who love culture
will just tell the vulture
that he should go fuck off

:evilgrin:

Now who could NOT LIKE THAT???

[Bunny]

20. Well, I don't care much for poetry, but that there's a rhyme

I can get behind! Good one NSMA! :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. I'm just fucking with Martin because I can

[Malva Zebrina]

39. all poets are liars

someone very famous by the name of Plato said that.

[DS1]

27. oh, I see

Tina, Tina, my betweener
knees always open, neener neener
Tried to be funny, ended up lame
Always pissing on my flames
lesbian doubtful, shocking never
damn does that girl think she's clever
tell me a story, use some pictures
you spend your days reading scripture
ForrestGump may disagree but
DU was better without THEE!

back at ya :7

[Character Assassin]

33. Eh. It just doesn't flow.

[DS1]

35. get a jumprope

and try again

[Character Assassin]

37. I'd never sully my hands by strangling it. An implement is far better.

Thanks for the tip.

[Character Assassin]

31. There goes that rotten Halley's comet. It makes me sick. I want to vomit

[edzontar]

18. Well THAT is a pretty sweeping statement....

Maybe you haven't read the "good stuff" yet.....

[SadEagle]

36. It probably doesn't help...

... that English is a really bad language for poetry. I am yet to see poems written in it that can compare to the work of Pushkin and Lermontov (in Russian), and Schevchenko (in Ukranian), for instance.

[Aristus]

24. Get yourself a collection of poetry by e e cummings,

read 'Somewhere I have never travelled', and then tell me poetry has no artistic merit.

[bloom]

61. he's my favorite..... n/t

[Jonte_1979]

25. Radiant cool, Crazy nightmares, Zen New Jersey nowhere

Five cents to whomever gets that reference.

[thebigidea]

34. pretty Ginsbergian to my already Zen NJ ear

god I hate NJ - get me out of here!

I, Andre Perkowski
bard out of NJ
pick up Whitman's cudgel
and beat the crap
out of him
with it
but fuck -
he's already
dead.

[soupkitchen]

40. It is difficult to get news from poems

It is difficult
to get news from poems
yet men die miserably every day
for lack
of what is found there.


William Carlos Williams
"Asphodel, the Greeny Flower"

44. great poem

thanks for posting it.
I've got a Bob Kaufman poem somewhere about the news I'd like to post, but I don't have it with me to do so, so it's nice to be reminded of that WCW piece.

[study_war_no_more]

55. walk it like you talk it!!!

I love William Carlo's Williams.

[aquart]

41. Define "artistic merit," sweetie.

Since people have thrilled and sung and soothed with poetry for thousands of years, it would really help if YOU explained what on god's green earth you mean.

[pinkpops]

42. yes that was a dumb-ass question

[ewagner]

43. There are some things

that just need to be said in the form of poetry as opposed to prose or music.

I agree that a lot of modern poetry is just crap but there are still some masterful works out there that are timeless in their message.

I keep the works of Edna St Vincent Millay in my bookcase headboard and sometimes read it before sleeping. It gives me a lot to think about.

[politicat]

45. Depends on the poetry

Just finished an amusing book called "Chasing Shakespeares" and a line from it struck me.

Shakespeare's poetry (and a lot of other "good stuff") sounds, when you read it, like music... it has pacing and the vowels work and it's just... right.

Less good, and bad poetry sounds like tennis shoes in the dryer. Ka-Thump. Ka-Thump, Ka-Thump, Ka-Thump.

DA-da DA-da DA-da DA-da
DA-da DA-da DA-da DA-da.

Yech.

Good poetry isn't ham-handed.

If you've only got bad poetry to use as your basis of comparison, I'm not surprised you don't see that it's got artistic merit.

Admittedly, I'm picky as all hell. But there's good stuff out there, including the poem reprinted above.

It's not just simple, declarative sentences. Sometimes imagery is really important and sometimes you can't do that with prose.

[mattboroson]

46. uh...

An old friend of mine told me he didn't like soup. He tried soup once, and he didn't like it.

Bizarre, no? To think you could try chicken soup, and on the basis of it conclude that you don't like borscht or gazpacho or hot-and-sour.

Sorry to say, but I find that aesthetic self-deprivation no more confounding than the question that began this topic. To be able to conclude, with reason, that poetry has no artistic merit, you would have to read all the poems ever written.

I'm inferring, from your depiction of poetry as sentences broken up into short lines, that you haven't reached this conclusion by reading all the poems that were ever written; you've probably read some poems by friends, who may well have had some artistic talent, and some Beat-influenced poetry. Imagine if you'd never heard the Beatles, but only a couple of high school marching bands; would it be smart to reject all music on the basis of those marching bands?

There have been so many deep and powerful explorations, and poetry (and poets) have explored so many different directions; the difference between classical and romantic and modern poetry is like the difference between classical and rock and hip-hop--people can like one without liking the others. And of course there is a huge span between individual poets within each movement, just as there is between Carly Simon and Trent Reznor. Someone on this board has been praising Edna St. Vincent Millay, and I don't like Ms. Millay, personally, which goes to prove what I'm talking about: there is a tremendous range, and a tremendous vitality, in the world of poetry, and if you detest "poetry" it's more than likely that you've just been reading the wrong poets; maybe you'd like Billy Collins, maybe T.S. Eliot, maybe Lucie Brock-Broido (my favorite), they're so very different from each other.

As far as the raw materials of poetry, the emphasis on metaphoric language offers a way of seeing the world infused with possibility; and an art form that focuses on the music of words teaches us to pay attention to them deeply enough to prevail over Orwell's vision of a State-language, which is what the Bush administration and Fox News have been striving for.

Matthew

[DS1]

47. actually I've been lectured through the meanings

of many poets listed above, and still failed to see any reason why they should be given credit above story-tellers.

Perhaps, in retrospect, it was the idiot teachers that forced their own interpretations of this 'art' on me, than the art itself...

[supernova]

48. There's a lot of truth in that

idiot teachers that forced their own interpretations of this 'art' on me, than the art itself

What poetry was foisted upon you in such an horrific manner?

[study_war_no_more]

60. you say story telling like its a bad thing

the bible is often referred to as the word of god where as other oral histories are dismissed as storytelling this could be a thread in itself?

[newyawker99]

71. Hi mattboroson!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[mitchum]

50. yes...a lot of it is not very good, but the good is sublime

[SOteric]

51. No, if my students are any indication,

you are not the only one. And yet folks who dislike poetry are greatly outnumbered by those who enjoy and admire it. :shrug:

Since I've won a few small prizes for poetry, I'm not going to be one of those who'll jump on the "it has no merit" bandwagon. :hi:

[Nikia]

52. You and I have different ideas of art

My preferred art form for my logical, thinking self is the short story or novel that has a definite plot and themes. My preferred art form for my emotional self is music. Art can invoke logical thought, but more often than not, it invokes emotional feelings. It is more about creating a feeling. Poetry is meant to create a feeling. Paintings and music create feelings. There are short stories without definite plot and less obvious themes that create feeling. Art is about emotion and portraying them better than normal language. Even short stories and novels with well defined plots say things that normal language does not. That is, we get something out of reading them than the knowledge of the fictional events portrayed.

[study_war_no_more]

54. Wang Ping / Flesh and Spirit

As a poetry lover I will be the first to say I wade through an incredible amount of meaningless words to find those that live and breath (for me) but thats not to say that they don't for someone else. Enter Wang Pings name in your search engine and tell me what you think, she is an incredible woman!!!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

57. Poetry is a language that some must learn.

You have to study poetry to get much out of it.

Definitely not an art form for the lazy.

[noiretextatique]

58. artistic merit is in the eye of the beholder

it just depends on your sensibility. surely there are poems that lack artisitic merit, imho...this could also apply to music, art, film (certainly applies to much of what comes out of hollywood), and so on. i have heard many poems at open mics and slams that i judge as lacking in artistic merit. i recognize this is only my opinion...a poem that does nothing for me may resonate with someone else.

[jokerman93]

59. Poetry no merit? Have you checked your humanity at the door????

Or have you simply never been exposed to the amazing power of real poetics?

From my perspective, one of the reasons our civilization is stuck in such a mindless adolescent trap of greed and violence is because we have lost our connection to the mature, enlivening and reality-enhancing power of our naturally human poetic powers.

If people learned how to create poetry from their own unique voice, and vision of the world, you wouldn't have such vast populations of malleable, unquestioning, insecure, conformist, fake-christian consumatrons waving flags and enabling mental slavery at every level of society.

We need poetry my friend. We need vision. We need humanity. We need individual visions and voices to speak up over the white noise of mediocrity and conformity.

Poetry is the Language of the Soul. If you don't understand what this means, then your education has yet to begin.

If what I'm saying concerns you, may I suggest you begin with the first truly American voice; the original expression of an authentically democratic and expansive breath of the "transcendental" American spirit:

Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman

Challenge:
After reading Leaves of Grass with this in mind, I'd love to hear why you feel Whitman's voice has no merit in the light of the historical challenges we are currently facing as a nation.

[bloom]

62. + + + + +

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Myra]

63. Wow, I can't believe you said that. 'Cause I was thinking...

...Just the other day that I get very little out of poetry
in general. I'd be hard pressed to pick a favorite poet
or poem (ok, I like Casey at the Bat). Whereas I could
name favorite authors, directors, painters, etc no problem.

I wouldn't go so far as to say is has no merit.
Because I respect it when someone has a creative
outlet or connects to a creative outlet.

I just don't get much from this particular one.
Nope.

[eyeontheprize]

65. Certainly not before you turn 40.

Very many things become understandable as you age, it is strangs.

[Iris]

66. something like this doesn't stir you?

My heart rouses
thinking to bring you news
of something

that concerns you
and concerns many men. Look at
what passes for the new.

You will not find it there but in
despised poems.
It is difficult
to get the news from poems
yet men die miserably every day
for lack
of what is found there.


_______________________


I believe this was written by William Carlos Williams.

At any rate, can't you see how much is said in less than 100 words?

[Iris]

67. kick - I want SOMEBODY to read this!

[jpgray]

68. It's too personal--there IS a poem out there you will love

I can't really tell you what it will be, though. Eliot, Stevens and Pope knock me out, anyway. :)

[Myra]

70. Ok, that it. I'm posting the one good poem ever written (IMO)

Casey At The Bat
by Ernest L. Thayer

The outlook wasn't brilliant for the Mudville nine that day,
The score stood four to two, with but one inning more to play.

And then when Cooney died at first, and Barrows did the same,
A pall-like silence fell upon the patrons of the game.

A straggling few got up to go in deep despair.
The rest clung to that hope which springs eternal in the human breast.
They thought, "if only Casey could but get a whack at that.
We'd put up even money now, with Casey at the bat."

But Flynn preceded Casey, as did also Jimmy Blake;
and the former was a hoodoo, while the latter was a cake.

So upon that stricken multitude, grim melancholy sat;
for there seemed but little chance of Casey getting to the bat.

But Flynn let drive a single, to the wonderment of all.
And Blake, the much despised, tore the cover off the ball.

And when the dust had lifted,
and men saw what had occurred,
there was Jimmy safe at second and Flynn a-hugging third.

Then from five thousand throats and more there rose a lusty yell;
it rumbled through the valley, it rattled in the dell;

it pounded through on the mountain and recoiled upon the flat;
for Casey, mighty Casey, was advancing to the bat.

There was ease in Casey's manner as he stepped into his place,
there was pride in Casey's bearing and a smile lit Casey's face.

And when, responding to the cheers, he lightly doffed his hat,
no stranger in the crowd could doubt t'was Casey at the bat.

Ten thousand eyes were on him as he rubbed his hands with dirt.
Five thousand tongues applauded when he wiped them on his shirt.

Then, while the writhing pitcher ground the ball into his hip,
defiance flashed in Casey's eye, a sneer curled Casey's lip.

And now the leather-covered sphere came hurtling through the air,
and Casey stood a-watching it in haughty grandeur there.

Close by the sturdy batsman the ball unheeded sped --
"That ain't my style," said Casey.

"Strike one!" the umpire said.
From the benches, black with people, there went up a muffled roar,
like the beating of the storm waves on a stern and distant shore.

"Kill him! Kill the umpire!" shouted someone on the stand,
and it's likely they'd have killed him had not Casey raised his hand.

With a smile of Christian charity, great Casey's visage shone,
he stilled the rising tumult, he bade the game go on.

He signaled to the pitcher, and once more the dun sphere flew,
but Casey still ignored it, and the umpire said, "Strike two!"

"Fraud!" cried the maddened thousands, and echo answered "Fraud!"
But one scornful look from Casey and the audience was awed.

They saw his face grow stern and cold, they saw his muscles strain,
and they knew that Casey wouldn't let that ball go by again.

The sneer has fled from Casey's lip, the teeth are clenched in hate.
He pounds, with cruel violence, his bat upon the plate.

And now the pitcher holds the ball, and now he lets it go,
and now the air is shattered by the force of Casey's blow.

Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright.
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light.
And, somewhere men are laughing, and little children shout,

but there is no joy in Mudville --
mighty Casey has struck out.

[Bridget Burke]

72. It has no artistic merit--to you.

W B Yeats, generally considered a fairly good poet, was totally tone-deaf. He didn't get music at all. Your situation may be similar. Well, the "tone-deafness" part--you probably haven't won the Nobel yet. (Neither have I.)

The poetry I have cared about has generally not been what I learned about in class. Often, it was the stuff at the back of the book that the teacher didn't have time to cover.