I have this little secret that I didn't figure out until I was 25.

[Maddy McCall]

And if you're lucky, you figured it out before I did. But if you are clueless, here's my little secret.

If you attempt to define yourself, your self worth, your self esteem, through intimate relationships with others, you will never be happy, because all that is yourself, and all that you ever will be, will be dependent on another person.

Damn. That's amazing, isn't it?

[lildreamer316]

1. Welcome to the rest of your life.

I didn't really get it until 28, so I'm one to be talking. It is very liberating,though. Have fun with your new self!!

[Maddy McCall]

5. I'm a few months shy of 40 now.

And the past 15 years of my life have been the happiest. Can't imagine having to go back to pre-epiphany days. :D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. yep

after I was devastated by a breakup, I discovered that it doesn't bode well for my self esteem if I gieve the loss of someone who would treat me like shit.

That was the end of that.

[Maddy McCall]

6. That's how I figured it out, too.

:hug:

Aren't we all in a better place now? :bounce:

[GOPisEvil]

3. You are one smart woman, you know that?

Unless one truly loves oneself, one cannot truly love another.

:)

[Maddy McCall]

7. Aww. You make me blush.

But, yes, depending on another person for one's value is a lost cause and a fast train to depression. :hug:

[GOPisEvil]

9. I suggest you post this periodically.

There are a lot of people here who need this message drummed into their heads.

:hug:

[Maddy McCall]

10. ....

yeah, I know. One immediately comes to mind. So sad to watch from the sidelines. Once, I gave that person some good advice in a thread. That person PM'd me to tell me that if I didn't like those threads, to put said person on ignore and not to respond to the threads.

Good advice, I thought, went right over that person's head. :(

[GOPisEvil]

11. ...

Some folks just don't want help. They want to wallow in their misery. It is sad, but what can ya do?

I know, I like to wallow from time to time as well, but then I get over it and either deal with things for fix them. :)

[Maddy McCall]

39. I guess the difference in the kind of misery in which...

you and I occasionally wallow is misery that we control. There's nothing wrong with it, as long as you control it.

What's wrong is when someone allows someone else to control their misery-wallowing. You know what I mean? "If only X-person would do whatever, then I could be happy."

So pitiful.

[GOPisEvil]

84. I hate to recommend a book as "the answer", but I got help from

the Dalai Lama. His book called "The Art of Happiness" was a big help for me. It helped me put a more "big picture" view on life's problems.

[lildreamer316]

12. I second that.

I swear that we are still teenagers until at least 25. Oh, the stuff I thought I knew that I had NO CLUE about. I shudder to think what I will think of my 32 at 40. Whew.

[Maddy McCall]

40. I think that I officially became an adult at 28.

And I can look back fondly at all of my since-28 years. Before 28, my life was a nightmare, because I refused to be responsible for myself.

[JimmyJazz]

4. Have you read Shel Silversteins, "The Missing Piece Meets the Big O?"

It's that exact concept in the form of a children's book. This little pie wedge runs around trying to fit itself into circles with a piece missing and ultimately it learns that doesn't work, so it turns itself into a whole circle and meets another whole circle and the two WHOLE circles roll down a hill together.

All that from a children's book. :)

[Maddy McCall]

8. That sounds like a fabulous book.

I need to buy some baby gifts. Sounds like a great gift for a little one's bookshelf. :hi:

[JimmyJazz]

13. Teaching children from the very beginning about the importance of

self esteem and individuality. Yes. It would be a good choice. I wish I hadn't learned those lessons so late in life.

[Maddy McCall]

42. Great! I'm going to pick up several copies for gifts.

[sundog]

22. ha! i have that book

a friend gave it to me at 25 :)

[JimmyJazz]

23. isn't it awesome? It's such a simple lesson.

[sundog]

24. we were smoking a lot of weed at the time

:smoke:

yeah, it's very cool book :)

[lildreamer316]

47. Also wanted to recommend:

Illusions by Richard Bach.

[Wapsie B]

14. That is very profound

and very true. If you learned that at 25 consider yourself fortunate in that regard. This is something that some people, myself included have struggled to learn. Thank you Maddy. This is the post of the day for me.

:)

[Maddy McCall]

43. Awww...thanks.

:hug:

[DontBlameMe]

15. Good.

I realized it around age 12 or so. Unfortunately, it took until age 22 or so to realy incorporate it into my life. What a difference it made!!!!

On re-read: Maybe I should say, I started to think, "Who cares what you think?" about age 12. Around age 22 it blossomed into, "Fuck you. Love me or leave me."

[Maddy McCall]

45. Yes, that's been my life's philosophy for the past decade.

Instead of trying to figure out how I could change myself so that other people would like me, I decided to quit trying to mold myself into some kind of form that would appeal to others and to look for people who are only compatible with MY needs.

I've been SOO happy since.

:hug:

[southlandshari]

16. Khalil Gibran's "On Marriage"

This was read in English and Arabic at my wedding many moons ago. It, like your words of wisdom, Miss Maddy, rings so true with me. Know yourself, depend on yourself, build your own life, be happy with who you are - that's the only way you'll have anything to offer someone worthy of loving for the rest of your days, of being your partner for life. Thought others in relationships, married or not - or looking for love at present - might get something out of this:


On Marriage (from The Prophet, by Khalil Gibran)


Then Almitra spoke again and said, "And what of Marriage, master?"

And he answered saying:

You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.

You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days.

Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.

But let there be spaces in your togetherness,

And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.

Love one another but make not a bond of love:

Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.

Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.

Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.

Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,

Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.

Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.

For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.

And stand together, yet not too near together:

For the pillars of the temple stand apart,

And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.

[merh]

27. I have the album where Rex Harris narrated The Prophet.

I need to record it to a CD - I used to love to listen to it.

My favorite lines from that passage:
"Love one another but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.

I join you in nominating this thread.

[Maddy McCall]

46. That is BEAUTIFUL, shari.

Amazing. I copied it and pasted it to a word document and kept it. Beautiful.

[merh]

17. I was blessed with a mother that taught me that.

Not to say break ups haven't been devasting. Actually, most breakups were because the other person didn't know the secret or wanted me to forget it.

You are good soul Maddy McCall! I'm glad you post at DU! :hug:

[Maddy McCall]

48. You are a gem of a DU friend...

and I can't wait to sit down at a table at the Hard Rock and have numerous drinks with you! :hug:

[southlandshari]

18. Recommendation #1

for the Greatest Page came from yours truly!

Great thread, Maddy.

:hug:

[Maddy McCall]

49. Wow...it's up to 5.

I just posted this off the top of my head, kind of stream of consciousness posting. I'm glad that we've had such a valuable discussion about it.

[callous taoboy]

19. What about an intimate relationship with music?

Music, especially the music of Steely Dan and Thelonious Monk, was central to my development of self from adolescence on. People had not been good to me in my youth, so I totally bonded with music which both drew a few friends in with me but, ultimately, made me into a social maladroit. At least I wasn't a dick-head jock.

[Wetzelbill]

20. I like being single a little too much, I think

I define myself by pretty much myself alone. I'd like to share that I suppose. I'm finally thinking that I shouldn't be such an eccentric loner anymore.

[Maddy McCall]

50. The thing is...

that when you know yourself, you will know when you are ready to move into a relationship.

I know so many people who feel like their lives aren't worth living if they aren't in a relationship.

Just be the loveable you that you are. When you are ready for companionship, you will find it. :hug:

[no name no slogan]

21. it took me awhile too

also, if you do have low self-esteem (like myself), you need to be sure that you form relationships with people who are good for your self-esteem, and who don't make themselves feel better by making you feel worse.

i spent ten years with somebody who thought that all her problems were related to her relationship with me. she belittled and emotionally abused me, because to her all our (and her) problems were "obviously" my fault.

at 36, i'm still getting used to the idea that i don't "need" anybody to validate my worth (although it's still nice to be validated!). it's been a long journey but it is worth it, in the end.

[lildreamer316]

26. Yeah;

Join the club on that one. My new man had to do some serious damage control and waking me up to what ppl around me were doing to me. It was a real eye-opener to find out eveyone in my life was using me; but they were. Now I have retained maybe 2 freinds from my old life and that's it; but I'm much happier. And much more confident!!

[Maddy McCall]

51. That neediness is such a turn-off.

Once you are comfortable in your own skin, the rest seems to come easily and naturally. You know?

[WCGreen]

25. I learned all that through AA....

You know you have to quit for yourself and not for others...

A lot of AA I don't agree with, but the program really allows you to be self regulating in all ways of your life...

At least that is what I took out of my time in AA....

Didn't buy into the whole turning your problems over to god, Thought if there is a god, he has more than enough on his plate to get my shit as well...

But it really hit me hard when I was about 27, my second year of sobriety. The girl I was madly in lust with broke my heart but I was able to quickly rebound simply because I knew it wasn't because of me it was because of us, we weren't good for each other...

After that, the relationships with people have been so much easier, richer and satisfying.....

[Maddy McCall]

52. Awesome story...

especially the last sentence. :hug:

[tavalon]

73. I'm a CoDA veteran myself

very similar credo but different drug of choice. I always saw the God thing as a higher power within myself thing. The addicted T. was small and clingy and selfish and very unable to see the big picture and the higher power T. was none of those things and self loving, to boot.

CoDA was one of the best things I ever did for myself. Leaving CoDA was a necessary step in my growth but I have nothing but praise for a system that helped me to learn how to love and care for myself.

CoDA, therapy and a determination never again to place my self worth anywhere but solidly within myself were the three big things that helped me to find a place that is peaceful and happy.

I sure do wish I had been able to find that at 25 rather than at 36 but, oh well, we each have our path and really, I wouldn't trade mine for anyone elses. All the ________________ in the world wouldn't be better than the life I've made for myself, even with its warty parts.

[sendero]

28. On the other hand...

... it took me until my mid 40s to find a relationship that really really works for me. I mean, I'm all whole and stuff all by myself but life is 3 times better with my wife :)

[Maddy McCall]

53. That's cool.

this isn't an anti-relationship thread. I was just saying that one has to find one's self before one can find another.

[sendero]

79. Well, I think that is true....

.... I lived alone for 7 years when I first moved out of the house.

But it wasn't until a divorce when I was 40 that I really got to know myself. There is a good chance that is why my current marriage is so great.

But for me, it took the pain and introspection of a divorce to really get to know myself. I'm sure most folks are able to do so in a less painful way :)

[yellowdogintexas]

29. I agree and I was older than you when I figured it out and

actually believed it.

However, my daughter is practically a missionary for this little secret and she is only 21.

Damn, I am proud of her for that.

[Maddy McCall]

54. It speaks well for the way you raised her.

Kudos to your daughter.

[Rabrrrrrr]

30. Absolutely true!

Fuck the soccer moms whose only claim to personal worth is her fucking useless children.

Fuck the asshole fucks who only have worth because of the people's names they can drop.

Or the useless used up former high school sports fucks who only have worth because of the sports successes their sons have, which sports the sons might not even like but are forced into it.

Fuck the self-hating bags of shit who feel that unless your every moment is dedicated to your spouse and his/her needs, you are a worthless spouse, and whose only identity is that she is the wife of that rich doctor/well-known stockbroker/bank manager/other type-A fucknut fuck.

Fuck the overbreeding clueless earth-killing self-centered shitbags who only find worth because they have a baby, and so keep popping out as many as they fucking can, in order to show the world their oh-so-fucking cute baby, but who don't really give a goddamn for the poor thing after they're a few months old.

[Maddy McCall]

55. I know one family who is everything you described...

all rolled up into one. When the kids don't excell in a sport or on a test, the parents' worlds crumble. Must be pitiful to live that way.

[Rabrrrrrr]

85. I would think so! I can't imagine basing my own worth

on what someone in my family does, or someone I know does.

Who fucking cares?

[rateyes]

31. Way to go..

in my profession we call it "making someone else the guardian of your own happiness." (Never a good idea) Most of us, me included, have to learn it the hard way--and, some people never do. Makes life a lot better.

[Maddy McCall]

56. I like that.

"making someone else the guardian of your own happiness." I like that. :hi:

[Avalux]

32. Very wise words, Maddy.

It took me a long time to figure that out. It's one of the things I hope to impart on my children as they become adults. Recommended.

[Maddy McCall]

57. Thanks.

Yes, I have worked very hard to drill this into my son. :)

[misanthrope]

33. You can remove...

..."intimate relationships with" and it opens up the validity.

[Maddy McCall]

58. Huh?

Don't understand what you're saying. Can you explain?

[misanthrope]

66. Sure...

...if you change "If you attempt to define yourself, your self worth, your self esteem, through intimate relationships with others, you will never be happy..." to "If you attempt to define yourself, your self worth, your self esteem, through others, you will never be happy..." and it takes the relevance of it beyond the romantic or immediate levels.

[Ladyhawk]

34. I know that, but--dammit!--I still give it a try occasionally. :( nt

[Maddy McCall]

59. Nothing wrong with giving it a try.

:hug:

[tavalon]

74. except for the part about

doing the same thing and expecting different results being the definition of insanity, I suppose there's nothing wrong with it.

My epiphany came with a promise to myself not to go there anymore. These days, I try out different mistakes.

[steely]

35. I give up, who's "the person"

that's the trick, isn't it?

[Maddy McCall]

60. ?

[lostinacause]

36. It seems if you define yourself by your own accomplishments

you will never be happy as well.

[Maddy McCall]

62. Who said anything about accomplishments?

I'm only referring to becoming comfortable in your own skin. When I was younger, I couldn't stand to spend an evening at home. I became the proverbial "party girl"--going out every night of the week, drinking in bars, etc., all because being alone by myself made me "lonely."

I couldn't fathom spending a night alone at home. I know now that what I feared the most was that, if I were to be alone, I would have to look at myself. Introspection was not something I wanted to do. I knew I wouldn't like what I would find, so, as long as I was in motion, or preoccupied by a relationship, I didn't have to have that "alone time," thus, I didn't have to get to know me.

Now that's all changed. I spent several years figuring out just who I am, what my limits are, setting boundaries for myself, looking at my past and examining the things I had done that made me uncomfortable, as well as the reasons why I had done those things.

I got a backbone. I defined ME. And the ME that I am now would never think of being pliable and moldable to "fit" someone else's ideas of what I should be.

And I am more happy now than I have ever been. It's not about accomplishments. It IS about defining one's self.

[tavalon]

75. Yeah, isn't it funny

how that alone and lonely thing get mixed up in our heads. I wonder if our culture contributes to that? Of course, as I was typing that, the voice in my head said, "um, duh."

I went through a stage when I was in active recovery for codependency that I hated three quarters of the songs on the radio for their overly dependant lyrics.

[gmoney]

37. I wonder if maybe the only way to learn the lesson...

is the hard way. Maybe you gotta get burned before you realize how hot the stove is.

And maybe I'm full of shit.

[lildreamer316]

44. Nah;

I think you're right. The problem is, some ppl never get burned.

[Maddy McCall]

63. I've always been a hard-head.

I had to learn through experience.

[tavalon]

76. I'm sure there have to be billions of ways of learning these lessons

However, I've never personally met anyone who was able to learn by anothers horror story. It seems we are predominantly experiential creatures.

[Blue_Tires]

38. truth n/t

[Schema Thing]

41. Funny how that works.

And it's true even if "intimate" isn't in the sentence.

[Maddy McCall]

64. Yes. After my epiphany...

I jettisoned friendships that were more of a burden than a pleasure to me. I definitely applies to all forms of relationships.

[NMMNG]

61. Reminds me of something I saw posted on someone's door recently

It is difficult to find happiness within yourself,
And impossible to obtain it elsewhere.

[Maddy McCall]

65. That says very succinctly what I said very long-windedly.

:)

[LastKnight]

67. i actuially have been figuring that out over the last 2 months.

and damn life is better for it.

[tavalon]

77. And will get even better for it

In my experience.

[BlueIris]

68. Took me until I was 24, Maddy.

But I think I've definitely got that sorted out now.

[rucky]

69. Congrats: Your cerebral cortex is now fully developed.

Adulthood really begins at 25. At that point you either "get it" or you don't. You obviously get it.

[SarahB]

70. Relationships should be the bonus, not our defining everything.

I was talking about this tonight with someone. They were saying don't accept anything less than what you want, etc. I said, "I have no fear being alone. I've already took fear, chewed it up and spit it out in many ways." However, I'm not going to turn away someone from my life either that is incredible to me. I don't live in fear in that regard either. I don't fear being alone. I don't fear love either.

Loving yourself is the staple of our existence. Sharing that love with someone else is the gravy. :)

Just my theory.

[tavalon]

78. It is a theory I wholeheartedly subscribe to n/t

[tavalon]

71. What's amazing to me

is that you figured it out so young. Did you happen to have one of those illusive, truly rare things, called a healthy childhood?

You beat me out on that fundamental truth by a solid 11 years and it took a total of seven years of therapy to really, really get it and to be able to implement the amazingness of it.

[CoffeeCat]

72. Kudos to you, Maddy....

Do you know how many 50 year olds STILL don't have this figured out?

There are so many people who are directed by external forces. They glom onto relationships, material possessions, careers--and they ignore their own souls. They run from themselves.

Maddy, I commend you for being so wise at 25. You will live a rich, lovely life--because you have learned something that many never do.

People like you go on to do great things.

Nominated!

[Mutley]

80. I'm 25 now

and I'm just starting to figure this out.

[NuttyFluffers]

81. I call it "The Gospel of San Francisco" over here

Identity politics is fun and all, but in the end we tend to respect and appreciate each other for who they are, as they are. No one really bats an eye at strangeness or exploration -- you are you and you need the space to discover who that is. A surprisingly patient place for self-discovery.

The "International Home of Freaks and Geeks" has an aura of acceptance and peace that is quite profoundly different than most other cities I've been to. Often people come here and see all these people, from every part of the spectrum, live relatively peacefully and in harmony. And sometime before they go home you hear, "It works here... and I want to take a bit of this home with me." Hence the "Gospel of San Francisco."

In fact I'm rather weirded out by the hostility one can find in other places, especially smaller communities. All that physical space and hardly any social space to be yourself.

[Bassic]

82. Ah yes the one epiphany we all share somewhere in our twenties

Well, most of us anyway.

[Pale Blue Dot]

83. This is absolutely true.

After my divorce, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what makes me happy. I took classes, started working out, began writing, and saw a lot of movies. Not only did I become happier, I also became more confident and attractive (if I do say so myself). When someone stepped into my life, I was ready for them, and I felt like I had something to offer.

I'm not quite out of the chrysalis yet, but I'm getting there. :D

[Kire]

86. But don't be an island.

I guess that's good advice too, right?

[GoBlue]

87. So generous of you to share your little secret...

and God forbid you ever be true to anyone including yourself. /irony

[Old_Fart]

88. Is that the secret?

[Blue_Tires]

89. ttt

bookmarked

[Deja Q]

90. Bingo!

One must be fairly comfortable with one's self first.

That can be hard for certain types of people, but anything is possible.

After all, they could invent a knife that could slice bread and still remain sharp...

[Zero Division]

91. Thank you, Maddy.

Yes, that thought had begun to occur to me (I'm about the same age you were during your epiphany). But I still need the reminder from time-to-time.

I hadn't really applied the thought to friendships until just now, and it's really opening my eyes. I've become utterly isolated from the friends I depended upon since leaving college, but that might actually be one of the best things that's ever happened to me if I can learn the right lessons from it.